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View Full Version : How would YOU load your shotgun for Home Defense?


Art SC
September 11, 2007, 09:51 PM
I've recently purchased a Mossberg 500 12G Tactical shotgun. It was a good price, though I probably would have gotten a more basice stock. That said, I've been reading a lot lately on how to load it for Home Defense. I've heard everything from all #6 bird shot to 00 or slugs only (I actually had to look up what all that meant - real newbie, here). I've also heard how some vary the shell types from front to back in the magazine.

So what do (or would) you do in my case?

I'd enjoy hearing what brands of shells you might choose as well, as the whole genre is rather foreign to me.

Environment info: I live in a small 3 bedroom cottage in what used to be the "country" 10 years ago, but suburban build-up is going on all around me as has the crime rate. There have been 3 violent murders and 5 home invasions within 3 miles of our home...thus, the shotgun. If it effects your advice: we have one house to the side and a trailer park across the street, but nothing but trees to the back and other side if that means anything.

tomh1426
September 11, 2007, 10:00 PM
Think mines full of #7, it was on sale
It blows up targets with no problem so It should get the job done from across my bedroom.
If I dont want/need the shotgun I have a few other choices just as close.

VA9mm
September 11, 2007, 11:51 PM
My shotgun is loaded with 7rds Federal Tactical reduced recoil 8 pellet 00 Buck.

I want to hit vitals and drop the guy not cause shallow wounds. To me a person is more like a deer than a bird. I wouldn't hunt deer with birdshot.

SpectreBlofeld
September 12, 2007, 12:52 AM
Birdshot has its uses in apartment buildings and otherwise crowded areas where human beings are behind relatively thin walls. For everything else, there's Masterc... err, 00 Buck.

GATMOG
September 12, 2007, 01:22 AM
Well, in my 6 shot Mossberg 500, I leave the chamber empty and in the magazine--the first 3 shells to come out are 7 1/2 federal gameshok birdshot followed by 2 shells winchester 12pellet 00 buckshot. The much increased recoil of the last 2 ought to let me know that I'm empty. On the buttcuff, I have the same shell layout..

While I will never need an ammo bandoleer for HD, it too is loaded 24rds buck, 25rds bird with one empty loop so I can tell which round is where without looking.

Don't buy a bandoleer shotgun sling though, they flop around and throw their weight which messes up your aim..

EDIT: the beauty of a pump shotgun is that you can shuck out the kinds of shells you dont need at the moment--since you have the larger capacity model, I suggest using that to your advantage.

Stay safe!

Joseph

skeeter1
September 12, 2007, 01:33 AM
As a side-by-side double owner, I don't have many options. The trap gun is too long and ungainly for HD use, but when I feel the need to load up the shorter-barreled (26") field gun, it gets #4 magnum buck in both barrels. I can't imagine that failing to take care of business if I ever need to use it.

DanAKAL
September 12, 2007, 05:05 AM
My 20 ga 870 has four 00 Buck. Federal I think. Nothing special just some hunting loads. Should I ever need it I doubt there will be much difference in the end result using my 20 ga as compared to a 12 ga. I also have five more rounds on the stock in a sleeve.

Dan

blackbear
September 12, 2007, 09:13 AM
Law enforcement agencies have used 00 buck for many years. I would not use slugs for home defense. firearmstactical.com has interesting information on home defense shotgun ammo. One in particular from the Firearms Tactical Institute.

41magsnub
September 12, 2007, 12:16 PM
DanAKAL, please tell us where you have found 00 buck for a 20 gauge? I did not know such a thing commonly existed. The largest I have ever seen is #2 buck.

Sarge
September 12, 2007, 01:03 PM
If you have some OO buck on hand, I'd use that. Brand or type won't matter at interior ranges, so if you have to buy some, get several boxes of whatever's cheap. Use some of it for practice at the ranges you're likely to encounter; then stetch the gun out a bit and see where your usable pattern ends. My experience says it will be 20-25 yards, but it might be different with your gun & loads.

shoot a few slugs too, so you can see where your gun prints them.

If you don't I'd load with whatever field load you have on hand, which has the largest shot. This too will work at interior ranges, but it won't cut through intervening limbs like the buckshot will.

kellyj00
September 12, 2007, 02:03 PM
first round: 000 buckshot
second round: dragon's breath.
next three rounds: rock salt.

and I've got a fire extinguisher next to the bed.

I figure if you break into my house, you're getting 7 .38 caliber holes in you. You couldn't care less if when the second lights you on fire and the rest leave a sting.

Seriously, I load whatever I've got laying around. I live in a small predominantly-mennonite town in Kansas though so I don't have to worry about a break in too much. There's something about the mennonites that scares the h-e-double hockey sticks out of criminals, maybe it's all that arm muscle gained by churning butter.

Creature
September 12, 2007, 02:38 PM
For HD, I prefer to have reduced recoil 00 Buck in my magazine tube.

I use reduced recoil loads so that it is not so punishing for my wife to use...and also it makes for a slightly quicker recovery in case a follow-on shot is needed.

PointOneSeven
September 12, 2007, 05:02 PM
Turret mount in the front yard. Depleted uranium slugs.



But the neighbors probably think I'm crazy enough.

:p


Usually 4 rounds of 00 buck, not racked, up in the office / bedroom.

rantingredneck
September 12, 2007, 05:31 PM
Small game loads are made for small game. People are not small game. Birdshot may stop a BG with one round It may not. 00 Buckshot also may or may not, but the may not's are much less likely.

If you haven't read the thread I started (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260611) about patterning shotgun loads please do so and please pattern test some shotgun loads before you settle on them for HD. A shotgun is not a death ray. It does not immediately stop everything in front of the barrel. It must be aimed and you have to know what your chosen HD load does at likely SD ranges. If you're like me you also want to know what it does even farther out to the unlikely SD ranges.

I shoot buckshot to 25 yds and Slugs to 100 yds at least once a month if not more often. Practice, practice, practice....

I keep my Remington 870 loaded with 5 Rem Managed Recoil 00 buck followed by 2 Brenneke KO slugs. I keep 2+2 of same in my 4 shot sidesaddle. There's a bandolier hanging in the closet above the shotgun that is stoked with 15 and 10. The reasoning is simply that IF I ever, God forbid, encounter a situation where 5 rounds of 00 buck hasn't solved the problem, then I'm gonna want some slugs.

Edited to add: My shotgun is kept firing pin down on an empty chamber with the 7 shells mentioned above in the tube. Rack and go.

BillCA
September 12, 2007, 05:48 PM
The first two rounds up in my Winchester 1300;
Federal 2 3/4" managed recoil #2 shot. Followed by;
6 ea Remington 2 3/4" #00 buck.
These are followed by two rounds of slugs.

The 20 gauge 870 is stoked with #4 buckshot with the last two being saboted slugs.

I figure the best tactic with a shotgun is to cover the hallway to the bedroom (nominally 15') or the locked bedroom door. This confines the BG to a narrow zone to improve the odds of a hit.

1tfl
September 12, 2007, 07:03 PM
I have a Remmy 870 with 6 shot mag. and side saddle for 6 spares.
They way it is loaded first 2 will be Federal Tactial #4 buck shots followed by 4 rounds of Federal Tactical 00 buck. On the side saddle first 3 rounds are Federal Tactical 00 buck and last 3 rounds are Remington 1 oz low recoil slugs. I use remington slugs because all buck shots are federal (red) shells and the Remington slug is in green shell.

bobby1028
September 12, 2007, 08:32 PM
My 1201FP is loaded with 6 rds Federal tactical 00 buck,the side saddle carrier with 6 Brenneke's

Rockrivr1
September 12, 2007, 08:53 PM
The first two rounds in my Mossy 500a is 00 buck followed by a slug. Then a mix of each after that. I also carry 3 slug rounds and 3 00 buck rounds in the side saddle. If I go through all that ammo and still have a need for more, I'm in some serious trouble.

CGSteve8718
September 12, 2007, 09:37 PM
I use 00 Buck and wouldn't go any smaller than 4 Buck. I also keep slugs in the carrier just in case.

Slugs only doesn't sound like a good idea. They will be go through and through, they should be kept around for just in case you need one.

Also, I forget who it was on here that said it in another thread, but it's important that you use a pump action also. No matter how cool you think the magazine fed shotguns are, the pump action's practicality can't be beat because of it's ability to "last in first out", and "shoot one load one".

roy reali
September 12, 2007, 11:14 PM
I use Federal "Intruder" shot or Remington "Bad Guy" shot. I want to use something that is labeled for the correct application.

evan9201
September 12, 2007, 11:19 PM
i would load mine up with any quality brand of 00 buckshot matched with a full choke. when that BG gets hit with that he's going down!!!!.

jheitertusa
September 12, 2007, 11:32 PM
I use Federal Classic, 16 pellets of #1 buck. I figure it is a good compromise between number of pellets and size.

DonR101395
September 12, 2007, 11:40 PM
14" Mossberg chamber empty, safety on, 5 Winchester 9 pellet 00 buckshot in the tube, 5 on the butt stock.

boltactionlife
September 13, 2007, 01:22 AM
My 870 is loaded with a 3" magnum slug first for a aiming first blow, then 3" magnum 00 shot (15 pellets) for when the other guys that I didnt see that started to shoot back at me so I can fire back not haveing to aim well and run for cover at the same time.

sholling
September 13, 2007, 03:07 AM
I'm about a quarter mile from wilderness but still in the suburbs with neighbors on all sides so over-penetration is an issue I pay attention to. For that reason I keep 8rds of #8 target load in my Benelli M1 Super 90. Before anyone laughs, at the ranges we are talking about for indoor use, say 5-15 feet, that #8 shot is going to hit as one tight nearly solid mass and turn center mass into gooey hamburger - without turning the sweet little old lady next door into gooey burger if I miss. It's also a Benelli and if the BG still hasn't gotten the message I can follow up with 7 more over the course of about 2 eye blinks. Sitting right next to the Benelli is a bandoleer with 25rds of full bore 00 buck. I figure if 8 rounds of #8 shot, and 7 magazines worth of 230gr Federal HSTs haven't solved the problem then it's probably time to get serious. ;)

BTW: I was perusing the 12ga pages of a favorite ammunition site and they had 'Pit Bull' brand buckshot & slug dual load 12ga with six 00 Buck pellets followed by a 3/4oz slug. It sounds way too gimmicky to me. Especially with a name like 'Pit Bull', but if somebody like Federal did it it might be an interesting concept. Anyway I might pickup a box of plain old fashioned Federal slugs just to have a few in the house although I don't know what the heck for.

roy reali
September 13, 2007, 07:50 AM
Some of you keep 50 rounds at the ready for your shotgun? Where on Earth do you live? Are you located near some sort of Ninja factory? If I lived somewhere that required fifty shotshells to feel safe I would seriously consider moving.

seeker_two
September 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
Some of you keep 50 rounds at the ready for your shotgun? Where on Earth do you live?

Unfortunately, I live in a place where Trouble doesn't call ahead to tell me just how much ammo I'll need to bring to handle him.... ;)

Better to have too much than not enough.... :D

sholling
September 13, 2007, 12:44 PM
Some of you keep 50 rounds at the ready for your shotgun? Where on Earth do you live? In my less financially secure youth I lived where I could afford to live. Often times that meant the fringe of gang territory. Having been in the embarrassing situation of facing down a couple of intruders with an empty bolt action Mauser and not round one in the house I never want to experience that 'empty' feeling again. So yes I keep several loaded magazines in the nightstand for my pillow pistol, and one bandoleer for the 12ga plus a couple of loaded magazines for the Mini-14 in the safe.

These days I live in a pretty nice neighborhood, but when it takes so little money and effort to have a quick reload handy then why not. Of course unlike some members I refrain from sitting in my family room with a 12ga lovingly cradled in my lap and bandoleers criss crossing my chest like Pancho Villa. ;)

roy reali
September 13, 2007, 01:44 PM
Some of you should consider building a moat around your house. Make it wide and deep and stock it with some deadly creatures.:D

Old John
September 13, 2007, 02:02 PM
By all means.............Before you go to bed tonight, if you have not read the Penetration Tests for Shotgun rounds, Go to Box o' Truth and Read them.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

They have information on Wall Penetration, for Shotguns, Hand guns, & Rifles.
They tell you what kind of Penetration you can expect from "Birdshot" in
your apartment. What kind of Penetration can you expect from #4, #1, or
00 Bucksahot?
Read it Please.
Thanks.

sholling
September 13, 2007, 02:31 PM
Thanks Old_John! Very interesting reading. I will think about switching to 00.

Mike Irwin
September 13, 2007, 03:23 PM
How would I load it?

The same way I'm loading it right now -- 6 rounds of No. 4 buckshot and 5 rounds of 00 buck in a stock cuff.

SpectreBlofeld
September 13, 2007, 03:34 PM
By all means.............Before you go to bed tonight, if you have not read the Penetration Tests for Shotgun rounds, Go to Box o' Truth and Read them.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

They have information on Wall Penetration, for Shotguns, Hand guns, & Rifles.
They tell you what kind of Penetration you can expect from "Birdshot" in
your apartment. What kind of Penetration can you expect from #4, #1, or
00 Bucksahot?
Read it Please.

One of my favorite gun-related sites.

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

Based on this, I would still rather use birdshot in my apartment. I would actually go so far as to say that I would rather have the bad guy not succomb to my shot - and survive to kill me - than me kill or even injure one of the young children that live on the other side of the wall with buck or a slug.

I live alone, however. Those with children of their own to protect from the BG may see things differently. I'm not going to let children die by my hand to protect myself or my property.

In any case, at the close range one would encounter in an apartment situation, a birdshot load behaves pretty much like a slug. That's how those powdered-lead shells used for lock busting work. I doubt a BG being shot in the chest with a shotgun at a couple of feet would notice the difference.

That said, I will be moving in the near future, and when I do, it's back to buckshot.

rantingredneck
September 13, 2007, 08:39 PM
at the close range one would encounter in an apartment situation, a birdshot load behaves pretty much like a slug. That's how those powdered-lead shells used for lock busting work

That's an unfortunately widely held perception but slightly flawed. Those individual pellets will behave independent of one another once they transition from the world of external ballistics to terminal ballistics. Once they hit flesh each pellet will be on it's own in terms of penetration and energy transfer. Each pellet also lacks sufficient mass to penetrate deeply enough to reliably stop a human attacker.

Those breeching rounds work against wood and metal at contact distance, but humans aren't made of wood or metal. We don't split and splinter when we're hit. Our tissue is flexible and absorbs and dissipates the impact of a projectile. Thus the ballistic jello tests that show horrendously shallow penetration from birdshot loads.

That being said, if I lived in an apartment alone I would be inclined to agree with your circumstances. Please don't have any illusions, however that the birdshot in your shotgun will behave like a slug at apartment distances. It really won't.

workinwifdakids
September 13, 2007, 08:55 PM
I'm loaded with 8 rounds of 12 gauge 3" magnum 15 pellet 00-buckshot, and the last round is a 3" magnum slug.

I have a bandolier with 20 rounds of 2 3/4" 00-buck, and 5 rounds of 2 3/4" slugs.

roy reali
September 13, 2007, 09:04 PM
Buckshot won't work against human targets. Buckshot is for shooting male deer, hence the name "buck". Now if the intruder is wearing a set of antlers then the ammo might get confused and actually cause harm.

Remember, birdshot is for feathered creatures. Buckshot is for male deer. If you plan on using a shotgun for home defense you'll have to find manshot.

SpectreBlofeld
September 13, 2007, 09:52 PM
That being said, if I lived in an apartment alone I would be inclined to agree with your circumstances. Please don't have any illusions, however that the birdshot in your shotgun will behave like a slug at apartment distances. It really won't.

I understand and agree. I wouldn't feel underpowered, however, at distances under a few paces. And in that situation, I wouldn't stop at one round...

Remember, birdshot is for feathered creatures. Buckshot is for male deer. If you plan on using a shotgun for home defense you'll have to find manshot.

Haha!

Marketing opportunity...

NEW! Remington ManShot (tm)

overkill556x45
September 13, 2007, 10:04 PM
A buddy and I are speculating the ballistics of Pabst Blue Ribbon bottle caps in 12ga. Could give the cops something to laugh about while they scrape what's left of BG off the wall.

In reality, it's HP slug, followed by 4 00' buck 9-ball. If that doesn't do it, I've got my G17 with 33rd mag full of JHP's. Gotta be ready for zombies at a moment's notice:eek:

roy reali
September 13, 2007, 10:05 PM
ManShot wouldn't work if the intruder was a she. In that situation you would need FemShot. To be safe, you would have to load your shotgun with both loads and alternate them. Now if Rosie broke into your home to do you harm you would need some other kind of load, I mean technicaly she is a female, but in a practical sense she ain't.

I suppose you then could use a side-by-side with two triggers. You would load one barrel with ManShot and the other with Femshot. Then you pull both triggers at the same time. That might work.:confused:

SpectreBlofeld
September 13, 2007, 10:19 PM
LOL!

Call it He-Shot and She-Shot.

I can see it now. Rangemaster sees a female-shaped cardboard target reduced to confetti by a single round from a shooter's shotgun. He goes up to the man and his wife to ask them what they were shooting:

rangemaster: What load was that?
man: She-shot!
rangemaster: No, I was pretty sure you were shooting. What was that?
man: She-shot!
rangemaster: Sigh... ok. Miss, what did you shoot?
woman: I didn't shoot anything! He was shooting!

etc ;)

sholling
September 13, 2007, 10:20 PM
Those individual pellets will behave independent of one another once they transition from the world of external ballistics to terminal ballistics. Once they hit flesh each pellet will be on it's own in terms of penetration and energy transfer. Each pellet also lacks sufficient mass to penetrate deeply enough to reliably stop a human attacker.I'll bet that the divot that it causes hurts like heck. I'm still rethinking my load out. If I were in an apartment it would be no question bird shot because I'm not taking a chance of killing a kid, but after viewing the tests I think that there are enough walls and fences between me and the neighbors that they would be pretty safe from anything but a clean miss combined with horrible luck. Anyway I'm still thinking on this one.

GATMOG
September 13, 2007, 10:22 PM
But what would the courts say?

"The defendent purchased ammunition strictly for the purpose of hunting BIPEDAL GAME!!! :mad:"

roy reali
September 13, 2007, 10:39 PM
You know that some shotgun shell boxes have pictures of the intended target on them. You could cut out a picture of a BG and tape it to the shotshell box. Now the shells will be fooled into thinking that they are designed for human targets.

When I was living in California my FFL transfer dealer also worked for the state's crime lab. He did ballistic testing for crime scenes. He told fascinating stories. He would often go to the range to do target testing to determine range and angles of shootings. This is like CSI stuff.

One time he told about an investigation he was doing. A thirteen year old was shot dead. He determined that the one fatal shot came from about seven feet away. It was a 12 gauge round of pheasant load. The kid was killed instantly. The blast hit him in the upper chest. There was not much left there. I guess in this instance the shotshells were defective. They were designed for large, colorful birds. They hit a kid and killed him. Thank God no one used them on birds. They may not have worked.

rantingredneck
September 14, 2007, 02:33 AM
One time he told about an investigation he was doing. A thirteen year old was shot dead. He determined that the one fatal shot came from about seven feet away. It was a 12 gauge round of pheasant load. The kid was killed instantly. The blast hit him in the upper chest. There was not much left there. I guess in this instance the shotshells were defective. They were designed for large, colorful birds. They hit a kid and killed him. Thank God no one used them on birds. They may not have worked.

A) There's always "he told" story to back up just about anything
B) The average 13 year old is built very different from the average 200lb male recidivist violent offender. Y'know the one who packed on 20 lbs of muscle the last time he was inside for burglary, assault, and armed robbery?
C) N=1?
D) Pheasant load = high brass/payload, a bit different from the 7 1/2's and 8's most people think of as "birdshot"

It is very possible that a human attacker will stop from one round of birdshot, It is also very possible that they won't. It is very probable that IF I'm shooting at said attacker with my shotgun that he's also got the means and opportunity to be shooting back at me and what's behind me (wife and 2 kids). All this adds up to 100% chance of my shotgun being loaded with something bigger than #6's. The fewer rounds he gets off before stopping the less holes me and mine will be likely to have in us.

As I said above, if I were single and an apartment dweller, I would look at the situation a bit differently. As it is..........

Mad Martigan
September 14, 2007, 03:23 AM
I'm loaded with 2 rounds of 3in 000 Buck. I guess I better pick up my bandolier this weekend so I wont have to carry the box of shells around. :cool:

roy reali
September 14, 2007, 11:13 AM
Now I understand why some folks feel the need to have fifty shotgun rounds at the ready for home defense.:confused:

okiewita40
September 14, 2007, 12:03 PM
In the apartment the OP is in I think the birdshot is a good idea. 00 Buck is a good choice also. Now if you want to get real serious about stopping power look into the Dixie slug Tri-ball II. A 3" Magnum shell containing 3 .600 hardened balls scooting at 1200 fps. Each weighing in at 315grains. Now that shold take care of any BG given proper shot placement.

If you want for those with the 3 1/2" chambers You can try the Tri-ball III.

Bill DeShivs
September 14, 2007, 12:49 PM
I have recounted this story many times:
Knew both parties involved in this shooting- BG shot in right chest at 6-8 feet with Rem. 1100 12 ga. loaded with #8 shot. Operating room personnel removed plastic wadding from his spine. Shot took out a large part of his right lung. He "should" have died. Buckshot would not have done any more damage.
BG was coked up, and ran 35 yards before he dropped from blood loss. There was a hospital within 1/4 mile. He survived.
Point: #8 shot had adequate penetration at close range. BG was damned lucky.

45Marlin carbine
September 14, 2007, 01:20 PM
I keep my double barrel 12 ga. magnum propped in near corner by bed. right barrel (improved cylinder choke) loaded with #6, left cylinder (modified choke) loaded with 3" 000. and bandolier of shells hanging on wall by my Marlin Camp .45, Makarov velcro-strapped to bed post.
I live way too far off pavement to rely on 911.
I have had to 'bear arms' at my home in the past BTW.
when I come across a better set-up I will employ it.

SpectreBlofeld
September 14, 2007, 02:30 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Bruce_Campbell_Army_of_Darkness.jpg

Ah, the ol' double barrel. When used in conjunction with chainsaw, it's an effective stopper of demons, ghouls, and what ails ya.

Just be sure to pick up some Remington 00 ZombieShot (tm)

:)

ooreach
September 14, 2007, 02:50 PM
00 buck . I've been taught to switch loads to slugs in middle of shotgun battle but i've also been informed that in defense situations you wont have time. It's more of a stand off situation with BG behind a car door or inside a house near a wall/door. In a house setting I have mine full of 00 and 5 slug shells in the butt.

Mad Martigan
September 15, 2007, 12:31 AM
Shop smart!!

roy reali
September 15, 2007, 10:24 AM
This morning I decided to see if I could get lucky and pop some dove. I grabbed my dog, my 12 shotgun, and my ammo box and headed to a nearby hunting area. As I was pulling in a large coyote took off from some brush. This coyote was the size of a small German Shepard. At that poinht I realized how defenseless we would be if it decided to attack us.

Sure, I had my 12 gauge shotgun, but I had all the wrong shells. In my ammo box there were many rounds of various birdshot. I also have a half dozen rounds of buckshot too. However, I had no dogshot or coyoteshot. Then I realize how helpless we would have been if we has a run-in with a big cat.

Mountain lions are not uncommon here. Without cougarshot we would be easy pickings for one of them.

I am going to have to reconfigure my ammo box. I'll make sure to included the proper type shot for any all possiblities. This box holds one hundred rounds of shotshells. Figuring all the dangerous species around here I should be able to have at least five or six applicable shells for each. The only drawback will be trying to carry the various ammo on me.:D

Hawg Haggen
September 15, 2007, 11:37 AM
Six rounds of 00 buck in two different pumps. Chambered and safety on. Anybody gets past the dogs and into the house will have no racking the slide warning. No mounted lights/lazer sights to give away my position. In my house I know where he is, he don't know where I am.

Mister_Dinky
September 15, 2007, 02:19 PM
How would YOU load your shotgun for Home Defense?

Full power Fed 00.

FirstFreedom
September 15, 2007, 02:37 PM
first round: 000 buckshot
second round: dragon's breath.
next three rounds: rock salt.

Shouldn't that be the other way around? Rock salt and dragon's breath for dissauding the attack and then, if that doesn't work, one or more disabling buckshot round?

What's the theory of the buckshot first, then the others? :confused:

My shotgun is holding TRIPLE. OUGHT. BUCK. 2.75"ers.

Gary L. Griffiths
September 15, 2007, 04:00 PM
For a HD shotgun, #4 Buck is about ideal. Less risk of overpenetration, but plenty enough size and velocity to stop what you need to stop.

Sure, police almost universally carry 00 Buck, but they're dealing with situations that may require stopping power at ranges above 25 yds.

workinwifdakids
September 15, 2007, 08:45 PM
The first round is an underpowered shell loaded with popcorn kernels and a pat of butter, which lodge the contents just under the goblin's skin. The second round is high-powered dragon's breath soaked in kerosine. The third round is 3" magnum 15-pellet 00-buckshot to finish the job.

That way, the police can enjoy a light, buttery snack while they wait for the coroner.

Don't say I'm not hospitable.

ShootemDown
September 16, 2007, 12:26 AM
Based on this, I would still rather use birdshot in my apartment. I would actually go so far as to say that I would rather have the bad guy not succomb to my shot - and survive to kill me - than me kill or even injure one of the young children that live on the other side of the wall with buck or a slug.

I live alone, however. Those with children of their own to protect from the BG may see things differently. I'm not going to let children die by my hand to protect myself or my property.

Buddy, dont do it. The chances of you being at home shooting at a BG in your home, in the direction of the children behind the walls, with the children actually at home, and to actually have the OO miss the badguy and hit the children is one in a zillion.

If you really are that worried, armor up the walls that you share with your neighbors. I hear sandbags stops alot ! and they are cheap !

sholling
September 16, 2007, 01:16 AM
If you really are that worried, armor up the walls that you share with your neighbors. I hear sandbags stops alot ! and they are cheap !Oh god I can see it now. A new weekly TV show on Discovery Home, sandwiched between Holmes On Homes and Trading Spaces - Trading Bunkers. Sly Stallone buffed out and in full cammies hosts as two suburban families have just two days to secure and uparmor each other's apartments with a decorator flair. :D

Sorry the vision that popped into my head was just too funny to pass up sharing. :p

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 11:12 AM
I guess some people just have tougher bad guys living around them then others. If you shoot at one of them from ten feet with a 12 gauge load of eight shot, the pellets will just bounce off of them. This will make them very angry. They will then just grab the shotgun right from your hands and place it where the sun don't shine. The only possible defense against these intruders is forty or fifty rounds of buckshot and/or slugs. Then maybe you have a prayer of surviving the intrusion.

Around here, most of our bad guys are mere mortals. A close range shotgun blast, even with birdshot, will cause considerable injury to them. We don't even have to keep kryptonite shot on hand. Good old lead works just fine.

I guess different regions of the country just have tougher bad guys.:rolleyes:

DonR101395
September 16, 2007, 11:16 AM
Roy,
Do you have anything other than bad comic relief to add? It's kind of annoying in a not so funny kind of way.

mathman
September 16, 2007, 11:26 AM
...I load mine with shotgun shells.

rantingredneck
September 16, 2007, 11:46 AM
Roy,
Do you have anything other than bad comic relief to add? It's kind of annoying in a not so funny kind of way.

Indeed.

'75Scout
September 16, 2007, 12:02 PM
I use 4 different loads in my 870. The 1st 5 will be #4 buck. I live in an apartment and #4 might penetrate less so it's 1st up. Then I have 2 shells of 12 pellet 000 buck in the back of the tube. Then I have 2 shells of 9 pellet reduced recoil 00 buck and 2 1oz reduced recoil slugs on a Mesa Tactical shell holder.

I have a bunch of different load sizes and decided on this set-up for my needs. I am comfortable with it and feel it will get the job done.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 01:38 PM
I find the real comedy here is the folks that think a short range blast from a shotgun, regardless of the payload, will not harm an intruder. I find it funny in a feel sorry for them sort of way. Almost as funny as the guy sitting in his recliner with fifty rounds at the handy for his shotgun. This is funny in a pathetic sort of way.

Creature
September 16, 2007, 01:50 PM
I find the real comedy here is the folks that think a short range blast from a shotgun, regardless of the payload, will not harm an intruder. I find it funny in a feel sorry for them sort of way. Almost as funny as the guy sitting in his recliner with fifty rounds at the handy for his shotgun. This is funny in a pathetic sort of way.

No comin' down from that high horse...ignore him.

Hawg Haggen
September 16, 2007, 02:57 PM
A load of 7 1/2 shot within ten feet or so from a full choke tube could be quite lethal but much further and it spreads out too much. A friend of mine got shot in the belly from about 15 feet with birdshot and it messed him up some but he lived.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 03:24 PM
I'm sorry about your firend but I'm glad he is alright. What shape was he in right after he got shot? I mean, would he have been able to continue a fight if he was in one? Did he need assistance or was he able take himself to the hospital? I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, however a good point might be made here.

I agree with, that birdshot at more then a couple of dozen feet is not the best defensive tool. But at very close range it should end most confrontations.

DonR101395
September 16, 2007, 03:48 PM
I don't think anyone is saying birdshot doesn't make a nasty looking wound. They are saying it's not the best, most effective round, it's not reliable for bipedal predators. Many bird hunters are shot every year from close distances often in the face or back of the head and live to talk about the experience. If you're shooting an intruder with the intent to simply wound them; I would suggest you re-think your mindset. But on the other hand, it's your home, your gun, your life. Do with it as you wish.

ShootemDown
September 16, 2007, 04:02 PM
A good percentage of home intruders are high on drugs or drunk or simply crazy...

A birdshot wound would stop anyone in their right minds.. but those crackheads, meth heads, pcp loaded junkies.. you need to shootemdown with a good incapacitating hit.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 05:33 PM
Most bird hunters that are accidentally shot are at distances measured in yards. I agree, at those distances birdshot is useless for defense. But I also contend that at distances measured in feet it is a different story. At very close range, even nonlethal type shells become lethal. Even the shot cup does damage at ten feet away.

If anyone of this world is shot in the chest at under dozen feet with a 12 gauge the fight is over. I don't care if the shell contained birdshot, buckshot, or silver projectiles. Get an object of your choce, a watermelon, a block of wood, a dead jackrabbit, shoot at it with low base dove load ten or so feet away. Then tell me that if the target was human the wounds could have taken care with some bandaids and some tylenol.

DonR101395
September 16, 2007, 06:31 PM
Most bird hunters that are accidentally shot are at distances measured in yards. I agree, at those distances birdshot is useless for defense. But I also contend that at distances measured in feet it is a different story. At very close range, even nonlethal type shells become lethal. Even the shot cup does damage at ten feet away.

I'll see if I can find the ballistic test I was trying to find. Basically it concluded that the smaller pellets lacking size and weight lacked sufficient penetration i.e. at 5 yards they could only get 3-5" of penetration in bare gel. I have no doubt that people are killed and get nasty wounds from birdshot. You seem to be missing the point, that it does not consistently penetrate far enough to effect the central nervous system.

If anyone of this world is shot in the chest at under dozen feet with a 12 gauge the fight is over. I don't care if the shell contained birdshot, buckshot, or silver projectiles. Get an object of your choce, a watermelon, a block of wood, a dead jackrabbit, shoot at it with low base dove load ten or so feet away. Then tell me that if the target was human the wounds could have taken care with some bandaids and some tylenol.

I'll keep that in mind if my house is ever invaded by methhead watermelons, or dead jackrabbits.
Any gunshot wound is going to require medical attention. Some can be handled at the ER, others at the morgue and everything in between. Like I said, I have no concern for what you prefer to load in your house. I just find it interesting that you guffaw at others who are using a superior anti-personnel load. I'll stick with loads that are proven to consistently reach the CNS of upright predators.

Bill DeShivs
September 16, 2007, 06:31 PM
Roy seems to be the voice of reason, here.

rantingredneck
September 16, 2007, 07:10 PM
A shot at close range with birdshot will certainly suck for the one shot. They may even die from it. They may immediately stop all aggression, fall to their knees and repent their sins. They also may continue those little motions of their trigger finger which may be wrapped around the "Glock Fotay" or whatever they brung to the fight. Roy, do you not expect the other fellow to maybe be shooting back at you? That's the reason I advocate for buckshot of a size and type that patterns tightly out of your particular shotgun. I'd hate for someone to be shucking 155 gr. Hollowpoints at me and I'm launching #8 birdshot back.

Statistically you'll have a higher percentage chance of an immediate or near immediate stop by using #4 buckshot or larger. I use 00 because it patterns well and I haven't found a #4 load yet that works as well from my gun.

sholling
September 16, 2007, 07:22 PM
Having looked down the barrel of a 12ga pointed squarely at my face from about 10 feet away I can attest that in such a situation that gaping 12 bore looks big enough to be a freaking railroad tunnel. That's plenty to stop most bad guys (and impress a good guy like me), and I'm pretty sure that in many cases that the sound of the bolt going home will be cause for getting the carpet cleaned without ever drawing blood. Many but not all...

Roy reali brings up some good points about the effect of bird shot at very close range but fails to take into account that we don't all live in the same situation. If I lived in an apartment with kids next door then no question I would be loading up with #8, and might even consider a less than lethal round as the first up the pipe (I'll still have my .45). I'm an old fart and as much as I value my own hide there is no way I'm putting a kid at risk.

If I were an inner city father living in serious gang territory then yes I would be loaded up with 00 buck and would have multiple bandoleers loaded with full power slugs at the ready. This doesn't mean walking around looking like Pancho Villa, it just means being prepared. People in that situation don't have the money to move to better neighborhoods or they would already be gone. Gang members, especially multiple gang members cannot back down from a fight or their own friends will punk them! In this situation being seriously prepared may be the difference between life and death. It's also worth noting that LE will not plunge headlong into some of those areas. There are a few that they won't even fly over. You could be on your own for some time. Maybe a day or more if the last LA riots are any predictor.

If I lived out in the country I would also be loaded up with 00 buck and have at least one or two bandoleers loaded with 00 buck or slugs. Not because I expect trouble, but because help is so far away.

I live in a nice middle class neighborhood with a reservation on one side, retirees on another, and a lower middle class neighborhood in another. The surrounding communities include a sprinkling of middle class neighborhoods with the questionable neighborhoods at least a few miles away. All of the abundant meth labs are several miles past the other side of town, and I'm only 10 minutes from the local sheriff's substation so I don't feel like I'm likely to be in the middle of any wars. On the other hand the gun battles on the reservation do get a mite hairy. Anyway my point is that we all live in different circumstances and it's best not to judge paranoia levels without knowing those circumstances.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 07:30 PM
Have you ever seen what happens to a pheasant when some knucklhead shoots one at point blank. The bird literally is disintegrated. If the equivalent amount of someone's chest is pulverized they are going to be hurt badly. A pheasant weighs several pounds. Remove several pounds of someone's chest and you will have ruined their day.

DonR101395
September 16, 2007, 08:17 PM
Have you ever seen what happens to a pheasant when some knucklhead shoots one at point blank. The bird literally is disintegrated. If the equivalent amount of someone's chest is pulverized they are going to be hurt badly. A pheasant weighs several pounds. Remove several pounds of someone's chest and you will have ruined their day.

I have also ripped the breast from the chest bone with my bare hand while cleaning a pheasant. That doesn't mean I can do the same thing to a full grown man. You're comparing apples to elephants they aren't even close to being similar.
I'll bow out since you're not going to see the point I'm making and I won't agree with yours. No need to turn the thread into something it shouldn't be.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 08:54 PM
You mentioned that shotgun pellets penetrate three to five inches of balistic gel at five yards. So, if someone is shot with birdshot at 15 feet they will have a couple of hundred projectiles penetrating their chest. The pellets will go three to five inches inside. I am looking at my chest right now. Five inches from the skin surface of my chest are some of my more important organs. I wouldn't want to experience that.

How long would it take you to grab a live pheasant and with your bare hands rip it into a million pieces? A short range shotgun blast does it instantly.

Hawg Haggen
September 16, 2007, 09:13 PM
[/quote roy reali]
I'm sorry about your firend but I'm glad he is alright. What shape was he in right after he got shot? I mean, would he have been able to continue a fight if he was in one? Did he need assistance or was he able take himself to the hospital? I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, however a good point might be made here.[quote]

He was quite incapacitated, had to have emergency surgery. They removed half his stomach and he has a really nasty looking scar. His whole left side from his belly button over is sunk in and scarred. You can see lots of tiny scars all around it from individual pellets.

Rmstn1580
September 16, 2007, 09:50 PM
If I lived alone I would use 10 gauge 000 buck. Then again I am known to over-do things :barf:

Deaf Smith
September 16, 2007, 10:20 PM
My wife, having been a ER nurse, Truma I nurse, OR nurse, CVICU, CVOR, etc....

Has seen many a gunshot wound. Close range 12 guage birdshot chest wounds don't look bad (but ALL were carried in) but when they cracked open the chest most of the internal organs are hit. Stopping all the bleeding usually does not work and they die on the table.

Just do this experiment. Get some kind of old meat, and shoot it at 3 feet with your favorite birdshot load and see the rat-hole wound. Then do it at 15 feet and see not only how close the pattern is but how deep it goes.

I can tell you it will reach the heart, lungs and liver easly. And it will also reach all those artieries.

I would not hesitate using bird shot at indoor range. The pattern will not spead out that far and the load will still penitrate to vitals. Nice part is the load won't go outside the target either. You will actually deliver the whole ouce and a quarter, plus shot collumn and any wadding, on target.

If you worry about penitration (or lack of it) just use high base or 'baby' magnums.

roy reali
September 16, 2007, 10:51 PM
Blaspheme!;)

ShootemDown
September 17, 2007, 12:27 AM
I have also ripped the breast from the chest bone with my bare hand while cleaning a pheasant. That doesn't mean I can do the same thing to a full grown man.

Men dont really have enough breast for you to get a good hold in the first place ;)

But about the birdshot and the 3-5 inches... what if the BG is wearing a thick leather jacket ?

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 06:54 AM
Has seen many a gunshot wound. Close range 12 guage birdshot chest wounds don't look bad (but ALL were carried in) but when they cracked open the chest most of the internal organs are hit. Stopping all the bleeding usually does not work and they die on the table.

No disrespect intended but these stories are posted all the time. My contention with them is simply that they are anecdotal evidence and unmeasurable.

It's also interesting that they all lived long enough to make it to the ER and into surgery. How many 00 buckshot wounds COM at the same distance do that? I would venture that many are declared at the scene and go straight to the morgue. Now, before anyone accuses me of wanting to kill the BG who just broke into my home vs. stop him, let me clarify. If Birdshot is survivable through the EMS response time and the trip the the ER and into surgery that tells me that the BG with a gun in his hand that I just shot with birdshot will very likely have time to shoot back at me, possibly killing or injuring me or a loved one, before he succombs to his wound. That is why I use buckshot.

I never said birdshot won't kill someone, it obviously will at close enough range. I'm not interesting in creating a wound that someone will die due to blood loss 3 hours from now on an operating table. I'm more interested in creating an immediately incapacitating wound that will make them cease all hostilities. Then we'll let EMS sort out the rest. If they survive, great. If they don't that was the natural result of their chosen profession.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 07:26 AM
I have shot at various objects at close range with birdshot. Don't ask why. Curiosity I guess. But I can assure you, at a few feet a birdshot load puts gapping holes into things. Objects are destroyed, demolished, ravished, annihilated, pick your your own adjective, but you get my point.

Now, what is special about the construction of a human chest that would prevent a close range birdshot blast from causing major damage.

I don't want to come across as more of a smart alec then I am, but maybe BG's are constructed differently in other places. I know that around here if I place the muzzle of my shotgun a few feet from someone's chest they will go down. I guess our BG's here are wussies.;)

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 07:49 AM
Objects are destroyed, demolished, ravished, annihilated

Any calibrated ballistic gelatin tests involved in that? Human tissue is not wood, or plastic milkjugs or beer cans. You can't compare the two realistically and based on that say 100% that birdshot will reliably stop a human attacker before they can take you with them.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 08:06 AM
At near point blank, a jackrabbit is shredded with birdshot. Aim at the rabbits front shoulder and from there to its head virtually disappears. No, its not ballistic gel or even human flesh. But it is flesh and it ain't that different from us. If that much of a humans chest is equally destroyed it is lights out. I am talking about a few feet of distance from the barrel. I agree with you, much beyond that things change rapidly. When distances start getting measured in yards, birdshot effectiveness drops rapidly. But at inches it is capable of stopping someone.

Another poster here mentioned a penetration of up to five inches at five yards for bird shot. At five feet I assume the little pellets would penetrate a little more. Two hundred or so objects penetrating a persons chest are bound to encounter some important organs. If the first five inches of my chest is damaged I think I could call in sick.

wolfdog45
September 17, 2007, 08:26 AM
I keep my Mossberg 590 loaded with 8 rounds of "000" buck with a empty chamber.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 09:05 AM
Aim at the rabbits front shoulder and from there to its head virtually disappears. No, its not ballistic gel or even human flesh. But it is flesh and it ain't that different from us. If that much of a humans chest is equally destroyed it is lights out

It's very different. Rabbits don't have slabs of pectoral muscle over their chest or as thick a sternum or ribs protecting the internal organs. They also don't wear clothes or heavy jackets. I agree the wound will be gruesome and you'll certainly need to do more than call in sick, but could the BG still raise a weapon and pull the trigger? That's the question. Not whether the wound will be mortal (it probably will).

With buckshot COM the distance of my hallway there will be definite circulatory and CNS damage to the point where near immediate collapse should result. I don't trust birdshot at that same distance to be effective. If the BG is within inches of you and your shotgun you've got problems at that point beyond even buckshot's ability to resolve.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 09:07 AM
For me it all comes down to one question. Do police and military who are expected to engage and stop human targets use birdshot for the job? No? Then I will not keep birdshot loaded in my home defense shotgun whose purpose is to engage and stop human targets who may break into my home.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 11:28 AM
http://WWW.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=PubMed&list_uids=328081&dopt=AbstractPlus

Click on the second link on the related articles on the right side once you reach this website.
The site I referenced here is not the right one. I'll try to fix it.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 11:57 AM
All I'm seeing is an abstract regarding a cancer study in rats.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 04:52 PM
Click on the website I posted above. You will see the word "for" next to a blank box. Type the numbers 9855793 in that box and click "go". It will take you to an article about treating shotgun wounds. I realize that you may know more then a doctor about th effects of gunshot wounds. In that case I give up!:rolleyes:

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 06:24 PM
Got this:

Department of Surgery, Gundersen Lutheran Medical Center, La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601, USA.

Shotgun slug injuries have received little attention while shotgun pellet wounds have been well described. Twenty-two shotgun pellet and 13 shotgun slug injuries treated over a 14-year period were retrospectively reviewed. Extremity and thoracic wounds were most frequent in both groups. The incidence of vascular and nerve injuries was similar for slug and pellet wounds. Angiography was more often used to evaluate pellet wounds for vascular disruption. The rate of wound infection was 38% for slug wounds versus 32% for pellet injuries. Tissue grafting was more frequently necessary for reconstruction after pellet injury. Long-term disability was documented in 15% of patients with pellet wounds and 23% with slug wounds. Despite similarities in wound location and outcomes, the ballistic differences between shotgun slugs and pellets resulted in significant differences in wounding characteristics and extent of injury which have important ramifications in management.

PMID: 9855793 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



I fail to see how this applies to the discussion at hand though.

And for the record I never claimed to know more than a doctor about treating shotgun wounds. Inane comments such as that add nothing to the discussion.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 07:18 PM
Thanks for posting that report.

If you read it, it says that shotgun injuries from slugs and pellets were similar. It says that thoracic damage was about the same. So, if a slug or buckshot has this great knock down force, then pellets should to. Apparently doctors treat both type of wounds in the same way.

Another point. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. You mention that police officers don't load their weapons with birdshot. A peace officer might after shoot at someone at a farther distance then most homeowners do. In fact, looking around my house, I couldn't make a shot of more then twenty feet or so at anyone. At anything more then a few feet, buckshot is far better. But if you shoot at someone at distances measured in yards you better have an understanding DA in your area along with a victim friendly civil jury.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 07:45 PM
If you read it

I did.

it says that shotgun injuries from slugs and pellets were similar. So, if a slug or buckshot has this great knock down force, then pellets should to. Apparently doctors treat both type of wounds in the same way.


Where in that report do you translate pellets to birdshot. Buckshot are pellets too, yes? They make no mention or distinction in size of pellet. Besides, treatment of shotgun wounds means nothing in terms of fight stoppage.


Another point. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. You mention that police officers don't load their weapons with birdshot. A peace officer might after shoot at someone at a farther distance then most homeowners do. In fact, looking around my house, I couldn't make a shot of more then twenty feet or so at anyone

Distance from my bedroom doorway to furthest point (corner of living room by the plasma TV) = 32 ft or 10.66 yds. Distance to foyer from bedroom doorway = 18ft or 6 yds. Here's the kicker though....I have a small 1200 sq/ft house. I actually got out my tape measure for this.

Just because its inside the house doesn't necessarily translate to ranges of a few feet.


From theboxotruth.com:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"



From firearmstactical.com
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Table 1. Lead Birdshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains) Approximate # of
Pellets per Ounce
12 .05 .18 2385
11 .06 .25 1750
9 .08 .75 585
8 1/2 .085 .88 485
8 .09 1.07 410
7 1/2 .095 1.25 350
6 .11 1.95 225
5 .12 2.58 170
4 .13 3.24 135
2 .15 4.86 90
BB .18 8.75 50

Table 2. Lead Buckshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.




I'm satisfied with 00 buck. Do as you will.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 08:35 PM
A "Box Of Truth" device can't be compared to human flesh anymore then cans or pieces of wood.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 08:37 PM
That wasn't the point of me posting that. Read further.

roy reali
September 17, 2007, 09:21 PM
The "Box of Truth" website is interesting. But you helped me post a link to an article written by two Thoracic Surgeons. One is a site about some guy shooting different projectiles into a device, the other contains words from men that have treated shotgun wounds. I know which I would trust more. In other words you tend to believe a guy that shoots stuff into a contraption, I lean towards guys that treat chest wounds. We all have our own biasis I guess.

rantingredneck
September 17, 2007, 09:43 PM
Indeed, thoracic surgeons certainly know their stuff, but the article I posted that you referenced again makes no distinction that the pellets they are referring to are birdshot. They may well be buckshot pellets for all we know from the article. If you have further information from that article that indicates clearly that they are referencing birdshot I'd certainly like to read it.

That all being said, treating shotgun wounds means nothing in terms of how immediate the fight stoppage is. The surgeon bears no witness to that part of the encounter. They only put the pieces back together if there are any. I'd venture more shotgun wounds end up being examined by the M.E. than a thoracic surgeon anyway.

Reading further into the link to firearmstactical.com I posted you will find this bit:

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.



and this:

With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.



Both reference the IWBA who know a thing or two about terminal ballistics.

condoor
September 21, 2007, 02:46 PM
I love the box of truth link! Best quote I've heard in a while:

"4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint."

DougO83
September 22, 2007, 12:10 AM
Pistol grip 20 ga. NEF shotgun...break-open loaded with 00 buck. The side-saddle holds nothing but slug

workinwifdakids
September 22, 2007, 01:35 AM
There are some thick people running around Teh IntarWebz these days.

1) A goblin was killed with birdshot? Great. I saw a blindfolded man run across a freeway and didn't get hit, but I don't live my life based on remote possibilities.

2) Birds don't wear leather, and rabbits aren't high on PCP. I want an instant CNS shut-down on a 300-pound rampaging meth-head at a bad angle from maximum indoor distance.

3) If given the choice of being shot with birdshot, or buckshot, which would you prefer?

4) The fact is, even anemic birdshot is going to sail right on through every wall of your house like butter, so that argument is silly. The point, as with any round - DON'T MISS.

T-Ray
September 22, 2007, 10:22 PM
with whatever's closest to the gun

sholling
September 23, 2007, 01:03 AM
Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint BOT's statement is what it is... asinine grandstanding and BS. You may not vent your bowels at the sound but trust me it grabs your undivided attention when you know it's being racked with you in mind.

roy reali
September 23, 2007, 01:25 AM
Negative remarks about BOT is considered blaspheme around here.

workinwifdakids
September 23, 2007, 10:04 PM
...with Sholling! The Box o' Truth is a fine specimen, a great source of knowledge that you just can't find anywhere else. However, the author's insinuation that the sound of chambering a round in a pump-action has zero psychological value makes me roll my eyes. Am I going to rely on the effect? No. Am I going to operate the action without intending to fire? Of course not. But the psychological value cannot be written off.

Boris Bush
September 24, 2007, 11:10 AM
workinwifdakids

I must agree with you. About 10 years ago I was gonna go have a talk with some kids that were sizeing up my neighbors car because they wanted some stuff that was in it. I never got a chance to talk to them because the sound of my 12 gauge racking through the open window scared them so bad that when they ran they forgot their bikes they rode to the would be crime scene..............

Wolf Lies Down
October 2, 2007, 12:15 AM
-
-Personally, in my seven-shot Rem870 12-GA magazine, I load 6 rounds of 00 Buck and lastly load 1 round of #4 shot.

The way I see it, the #4 puts out a $#!+ load more pellets, ensuring a better chance of a hit, thereby slowing the sob down for the followup six rounds of #00. Realistically, I believe the #4 is a pretty nasty load and should work just fine by itself in close encounters.

ritrebor
October 5, 2007, 01:31 AM
2-bird, 2-buck 00, 1 slug.

jhgreasemonkey
October 5, 2007, 01:54 PM
I load mine #1 buck, slug, #1 buck, slug, #1 buck.

Servo77
October 5, 2007, 02:11 PM
Hornady TAP #00 buck

sm
October 6, 2007, 06:23 PM
2 3/4" Slugs.
Forster or Brennke'
12 or 20 gauge, and Never reduced recoil.

Shotguns are stock, no side saddles, no mag extensions
Bead front, some do have a mid bead.

I keep topped off loading through magazine. I do the same old boring thing over and over. I am not smart enough to keep up with how many rounds, much less what kind of round - so I just do one kind - slugs.


Steve

HDTVSELLER
October 6, 2007, 10:27 PM
well i keep 00 3 1/2 rem. loads but that is cause i loaded it to hunt with and never unloaded it.plus i dont have any one that lives close to me nor do i have kids .but in your area i would say some form of bird shot say #6-#9 if you can find it. that way its less likely to go threw the next doors walls and isnt hard to patch up in your own house. cause i'll tell you a slug can do so so much damage you just dont know..

Webleymkv
October 7, 2007, 06:57 PM
I keep steel BB shot in mine, but then again that's a 3 1/2 10ga shell. For a 12ga, I've always liked #4 Buckshot

Neanderthal
October 21, 2007, 03:46 AM
It's not so much the arrow that's important in this situation, but the Indian. At close range load whatever you feel comfortable with-it really doesn't matter. A little farther, some of the mags. like "Cheaper than Dirt", etc. have several devastating defense rounds available that are even more effective than buckshot.

rem870hunter
October 25, 2007, 06:04 AM
i keep my 870 unloaded sitting within arms reach of my bed. nothing more than an express magum. 5 shot. can't use a mag extension cause of the tube type. with 5 #1 buck on the stock. 1 box of slugs in the closet right next to 5 #8's. i have another 5 of 3" 00 buck in my cabinet . my fathers housing situation is a bit tougher. his neighbors are closer. so he had my wingmaster with the 8 shot tube with 5 rounds of #2 magnum lead. with a 1911 as back up. he dont't want to worry about misses or overpenatration. i like tothink that i am in an area that is not troublesome. but i take no chances. i have 7 kids here. so i figure if my shooting dont get the bad guy(s). the kids can be just as nasty as guard dogs. i have a home within 40 yards of my left and another 50 yards across the road. to my right is a horse pen with 4 beauties in it. they had their quad stolen within the last 7 months. the people are really nice. they know upfront. i see something funny i call them and im at my door or window armed. i live in southern nj. and i was informed by my local police department. that if someone breaks into my home. i have to let that person or persons know that i am armed and to tell them leave peacefully. i laughed and asked him am i supposed to let them get the upperhand. get shot and maybe triy to call you for help. he didnt respond. i told him i might put a 911 sticker on my buttstock. i am somewhere other than Free america. i knew it:(

EHCRain10
October 25, 2007, 11:42 PM
i have a 8 shot mossy 500 with a 5 shot side saddle

empty chamber with a snap cap and the hammer down,
3in #4 buck
2.75 00 x4
3in #1 buck
2.75 1oz slug
3in 2oz #4 Turkey load

the side saddle is full of 3in #4 buck

the way i see it, the increased recoil of the first slug will let me know its time to reload from the side saddle. and if 14 rounds isnt enough i dont need to be fighting it.

i also live in a brick house where the closest house is 150 yrds through the woods and at a higher elevation.

ebutler462
October 26, 2007, 09:48 AM
Please allow me to chime in for just a moment. During my 30+ years in law enforcement, I had the duty of making many raids on juke joints, crack houses, and other places of ill repute. Even in a crowded, noisy joint, with most of the crowd likkered up, the sound of a pump shotgun being racked will get the utmost attention. Their bowels didn't move, but their attention was immediately obtained. Nowadays they use flash-bangs to do the same job. I doubt that it got more attention that the pump shotgun being loaded.

Having said that, there are a lot of posts hereabouts concerning what police use. Let me be clear. Policemen carry shotguns and qualify with them. I can't recall having known them to be fired in the line of duty. They are a protection if needed. When the chips are down and a cop needs to take down a bad guy, the shotgun is the last weapon that will be used. It is too dangerous to innocent bystanders. Though I am a shotgun lover and own many, the shotgun is worthless for law enforcement uses due to the liability involved. Even in rural areas, there is too much chance of collateral damage. The AR or the Mini-14 is the weapon of choice for taking down a perp. The projectile disintegrates upon impact. More perps are brought down with handguns than anything else.

I can foresee the day when PDs will not issue shotguns. I am a shotgun fan but LE is not the place for them. In the military when everyone is the bad guy, I can see where they would have a use. I always carried a Mini-14 in my cruiser for serious business. The shotgun went along for the ride but I seldom took it out except for inspections.

Beside my bed I have a 20 gauge pump loaded with #6 shot. I hope I never need it but I have the utmost of confidence in it. I have seen what it can do from my many years of wiping bad guys off the floor after home owners got tired of being victimized.

Happy shooting!

JoshB
October 26, 2007, 10:22 AM
I don't have much experience with semi's, but I've had some FTF's with the pumps. I prefer double barrels myself. I don't keep one for home defense, but if I did, I would go with slugs.

athlon64
October 26, 2007, 09:23 PM
Federal tac 00 buck. I don't mix rounds in the tube, too complicated for me : )

Hallucinator
October 26, 2007, 10:38 PM
After reading these posts, I've decided to change ammo. 106 Recoiless Rifle loaded with HE.

Magnum88C
October 27, 2007, 02:18 PM
Winchester Supreme 2 3/4" 12-pellet OO buck, and some 3" Remington Slugger slugs. Different color cases aid in identification.

mrambo
November 1, 2007, 06:29 PM
I like 00 buck . I have seen someone shot with 12 ga bird shot. The guy was shot at close range inside an apartment when we rolled the body over the wad was sticking out of his back.,it acted like a slug at that range. He didn't require a second round.

dmxx99
November 2, 2007, 01:37 PM
I always have 12 gauge Federal 00 buckshot for my Remington 870 express I would load 7 and get it ready if the need arises
My Federal 1 ounce slugs are for extreme emergencies where the guy is armored or something.

Neal in GA
November 7, 2007, 10:57 PM
3" fed 00 buck for the first 5 rounds, slug for the last round. If, for some unforseen reason (ie murphy's law), the shotgun is unavailable, dry, disabled, or otherwise unuseable, I have my 1911 with 9 rds of 230 gr gold dot. It's quicker to draw a pistol than to try to reload a shotgun, and I'd rather have a BUG than a bandoleer of the same weight. I had a guy try to break into my home Monday night. I grabbed my 870, flipped on the light, then proceeded to clear the house. Once I determined the house was clear, I put on some pants, boots, and a jacket, woke up my roommates, stuck my .45 in my pants, and checked the perimeter of my home (roommate was behind me with my .357 and a surefire). Fortunately, the guy must have taken off when he saw the light come on. I really don't want to shoot anyone, but it felt good to have training and just move on instinct without having to think about what to do.

dead-eye-ked
November 7, 2007, 11:10 PM
I like #4 buck. I only saw a few people suggest it, and I think they are right. Get it in 3" if you feel the need, but if you blast someone under 5 yards as in a home would be. You Will stop them, likely they wont ever move again either.

madcratebuilder
November 8, 2007, 10:07 AM
I like #4 buck. I only saw a few people suggest it, and I think they are right. Get it in 3" if you feel the need, but if you blast someone under 5 yards as in a home would be. You Will stop them, likely they wont ever move again either.

I agree, in home, short range, it's my first choice.

ArizonaRick
November 10, 2007, 02:28 PM
I keep the side sadle with Federal 00 low recoil buck shot - yes, unloaded, got young kids who know how to load and fire shotgun quiet well. My wife can load the gun in 3-5 seconds in the dark. It is important to have the "what to do if someone is in the house" plan ahead of time. We had an intruder in our house 6 months ago and my wife threw a can of tomato soup at him and chased him down the street (1/2 naked) with a second can. You realy don't need a shotgun, just an Irish wife with a good arm. We actually lock our doors at night now (Arizona).

tfinch2
November 11, 2007, 05:57 PM
5 shells of Winchester Super X 00 buck in the magazine, and 5 more on the stock.

Guntalk
November 14, 2007, 08:21 AM
A slightly different question than what you load your shotgun with . . .

Upon what do you make that decision?

That is, how did you decide to use 00 buck, or number 4 buck, or a series of increasing shot sizes starting with number 6, or alternating buck/slug/starburst/spreader/Bismuth?

Did you read about it in a gun magazine? Did you test it yourself (and if so, how/where), or did it just "feel right"?

rantingredneck
November 14, 2007, 08:50 AM
To answer your question:

Personally I have patterned my chosen 00 buck load and tested Brenneke slugs for accuracy. As to why loading with 00 buck first followed by slugs, in the unlikely event that I'll need more than 5 rounds of buckshot, I doubt more buckshot will resolve whatever situation I've found myself in. Hence the 1oz. slugs. I also keep slugs in the sidesaddle or buttstock for the unlikely hostage type scenario where buckshot would be ill-advised.

None of my HD guns stay loaded with birdshot. I've patterned some #4 buckshot and wasn't impressed. Yeah it'd work out of my guns to 7-10 yds, but beyond that the pattern opens way too much. My 00 load works well to 25 yds.

mikejonestkd
November 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
You are supposed to Load it?

I thought all you had to do was stand there and work the action to deal with a home invader?:D

mike4
December 26, 2007, 10:27 PM
everyone has opinions and individual ideas in how to protect themselves. i don't feel there is a wrong or correct way. you live and die by your choices in a matter like this. i preffer 2 (23/4) 16 pellet 00 shells followed by 3 3" 9 pellet 00rds and then 3 brenekee slugs(8 3" 00 rds in the sidesaddle) in my m4(which can digest anything in no special sequence) i am alone on the top floor of my biulding so caladeral damage seems low ,plus i might want to shoot thru a wall if the perp is behind it...also bought the m4 due to thoughts of general reliabality risks in a no-nonsense situation , had to have what the m4 offers in the "count on it " dept...and reliable , no jam ,rapid fire power. until recently i filled my sg's with straight 00 thru and thru. i think i gained alot of valuable / technical info from a site called firearmstactical.com and links it reffers to. good breakdowns of the bottom line results of things tested that i / we take for granted. stuff i learned from you guys + a nelli m4 are a great and lethal combo.

mike4
December 26, 2007, 10:29 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i like and agree with what va9mm says at the top of this thread.(page 1) just makes sense. humans are like a deer/buck more than a bird. but yes , always think about innocents being hurt if you need to. at home , i don't ...

mike4
December 26, 2007, 10:54 PM
spectreblofeld , thats honorable. (what you say on page two) my 2 kids are grown now and both work nypd. i do remember how fragile everything seemed when the were tots. god bless the kids. and anyone in your "hands tied behind your back" situation. don't envy you. maybe the best , auh forget it.

roy reali
December 27, 2007, 09:27 AM
Some of you must be rich. You sure seem to be able to hire a better attorney then I could.

Mike40-11
December 27, 2007, 10:26 AM
Wow. I thought 9mm vs .45 threads generated a lot of heat and smoke:rolleyes:

Anyway, I like double-aught in my shotgun.

By the way, Glock or 1911?:D

ckd
December 27, 2007, 10:32 AM
+1 GATMOG's solution. Inside overpenetration is a concern, but if birdshoot isn't going to solve my problem 00 will. We load first two with bird, the rest with 00. The SG is the barricade choice, the handgun for manuvering easily if a search or retrival of others in the house is necessary.

Since not all ammo patterns the same, make sure you get a good sense of pattern at least up to 7 yards (generally max. room dimensions in a normal house).

redrick
December 27, 2007, 05:44 PM
I agree with rantingredneck , you need to pattern your shotgun to see what load and brand gives you the tightest pattern . On a man i would be using anything from 000 to #4 buckshot . Go get you some large sheets of paper or cardboard , buckshot in 3 different brands and go shooting . This will also get you use to the gun . You will probably only want to shoot 3 rounds in 1 day with buckshot if you don't have a gun sled .

seeker_two
December 27, 2007, 09:31 PM
Mike40-11: +1

By the way, Glock or 1911? :D

I prefer a 9mm 1911 to a .45ACP Glock, anyday.... :cool:

lockedcj7
December 27, 2007, 09:58 PM
I've shot 100 lb whitetail deer at 15 and 25 yards with 12 pellet 00 buck and they went down. At 15 yards, it was pretty much over in a few seconds but it wasn't a death ray. Conceivably, a BG could still have still pulled a trigger. At 25 yds, I added a finishing shot because I was afraid it was going to get up! What I learned was that 00 buck still might not be enough. Over-penetration is an issue with any load that is also powerful enough to be effective.

We're all focusing on indoor ranges, but what if the fight moves (or begins) outside? I can think of more than one scenario that might mean I need to engage a BG at longer ranges. What about animals? I had to shoot a wild hog in my own back yard and I damn sure wouldn't have tried that with birdshot.

I keep my HD shotgun loaded with more than just home-invasion in mind. I live in the boonies and any problem I have is going to have to be solved by me. 00 Buck in the magazine and slugs in the butt-cuff. I also keep one in the chamber. I'll rack the slide after the first round. I don't believe in giving away the element of surprise. I'll go ahead and assume that anyone who broke into a home that is obviously occupied is intent on doing me and my family serious harm and is unlikely to be deterred by any sound.

roy reali
December 27, 2007, 10:32 PM
You shoot at someone outside at twenty five yards you better have a very understanding DA or know a very good criminal attorney.

Johnc
December 27, 2007, 10:47 PM
You shoot at someone outside at twenty five yards you better have a very understanding DA or know a very good criminal attorney

LOL If you live in NY you better have BOTH!!!

YukonKid
December 28, 2007, 12:58 AM
alternating remington slugs and double buck. i did the folding knox stock as well, its pretty cool.

TexasSeaRay
December 28, 2007, 01:01 AM
Same as I did in the old job. 2 3/4" 00 buckshot.

Jeff

Kreyzhorse
December 29, 2007, 08:01 AM
My mossberg is loaded with 000 buckshot. Remington if I'm not mistaken. It is not my first line of defense but it is where I spend most of my waking time when I'm at home.

ooreach
December 29, 2007, 12:14 PM
im not paranoid but i've got the 12 loaded by the bed, mossburg with 7 OO shells. And in the living room i've got the 20 g with 4 00 shells and dito in the den in the basement. I just can't see running more then 3 rooms or up stairs to get the big guns. I'm usually armed until I'm ready to relax. But those little comforts hidden but quickly available due add a degree of peace of mind. BTW: we live about an acre from nearest neighbor in a "nice" suburb, but I know bad things can happen anywhere, just less likely.

Stetson 33
December 29, 2007, 02:50 PM
As long as I am in my house my shotgun will be loaded with number 6 birdshot.
I worry about overpenatration in confines of a house.Sheetrock doesn't do much to slow projectiles.