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Hallucinator
August 11, 2007, 08:42 AM
I like the look of the pellets in the 000 shell. To be shot with one must be like getting hit with eight 9 mil rounds at once in a small group.

I'm wondering what the shell was originally intended for, if not bad people?

Who likes this shell?

KALIFORNIST
August 11, 2007, 08:31 PM
000 is over kill for people.Stick with 00 and #1.I do keep 000 as the last round in the mag from time to time.The theory being that It kicks much harder letting me know I am empty and if I got to the 7th/8th round and I am still shooting I may need more penetration to get through the wall or table where the person with poor judgement is taking cover.Just a theory and in the heat of the battle I probably wont notice any more recoil.

RevolverLover
August 11, 2007, 08:33 PM
000 is over kill for people

How can something be over kill?

ebutler462
August 11, 2007, 09:37 PM
Dead is dead. You can't kill anything but dead. If #4 buck will do the job-and it will-it is sufficient. 000 will overpenetrate and cause unnecessary damage and is dangerous to innocent persons or animals.

I am not trying to be controversial. Example: For most home defense situations, a load of #6 shot will either kill or stop the bad guy. However, some HD fans like to use "overkill" with slugs or large buckshot when smaller shot is all that is needed. They read it in a book, usually a M. Ayoob article, or on some HD website.

I have a load of #6 or #7 1/2 loads in my bedside gun. I am very satisfied that it will do the job of protecting me and mine. If you feel that you need larger shot than that, it is a matter of personal opinion.

I am a retired detective that has investigated many HD incidents. Believe me when I say that a load of #6 shot will make hamburger out of a bad guy within 30 feet or more. It will definitely stop his activities. Some guys are not happy with stopping the activities of the bad guy, they want to bury him. Thus, the "overkill" syndrome.

workinwifdakids
August 12, 2007, 03:16 PM
Not to be controversial, either, but assume a 6ft to 30ft encounter, striking a clothed person with all pellets on target center-mass.

Is 00-buckshot really going to penetrate 'through' the goblin?

I may make a new thread out of this question...

ebutler462
August 12, 2007, 07:51 PM
If you do make a new thread, you will only get opinions.

I have been there, done that. There are buckshot fans and slug fans and bird shot fans. Every one of them will only post their personal opinions.

I have investigated several HD incidents involving every kind of round fired. A shotgun blast with anything from birdshot to slugs will do the job adequately. Just whatever you have in the barrel will work in a HD situation. No matter what kind of clothes he has on, he will be stopped. I have investigated many of these type incidents as a detective and a lot of these bad guys were drugged out of their heads, as the autopsy and toxicology results proved. A shotgun is deadly within HD ranges with anything you put in it. It will stop the aggressor, and very well might kill him. Usually does, but always stops his evil intentions.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you need a special type HD gun or load. Your favorite fowling piece and whatever load you have handy is all you need.

The guys that worship at the altar of M. Ayoob and their favorite HD forums have never been faced with the real thing. They will not be convinced of anything except what someone else has told them or what gelatin or jugs of water indicate, if anything.

Birdshot will make so many holes that the surgeons can't patch them all. Buckshot and slugs will do a lot of collateral damage when doing in the bad guy. Stopping the bad guy is the purpose and even with a bullet proof vest, a shotgun blast will knock him down and change his mind within HD range.

So, save your typing finger for better purposes. There is no way you can convince a trigger happy HD fan that he can be content with whatever shotgun and load he has beside his bed. Too many threads have been wasted trying.

Happy shooting!

Slopemeno
August 12, 2007, 09:10 PM
I got to read a stack of police reports surrounding a contact-distance 12 gauge 00 buck shooting. The badguy was shot below the sternum in a struggle over the shotgun. No pellets exited. It was kinda surprising how little visible damage the shotgun caused, actually. Just a hole the size of a quarter. He dropped instantly.

Bill DeShivs
August 12, 2007, 09:40 PM
It's called "buck shot"- I wonder why?
Almost any load is good, but none will "knock him down." I hope we don't get into THAT again!

woodland
August 13, 2007, 12:28 PM
But then Cheney took a load of bird shot to the head and was fine. How far away was that from? Anyone know?

ebutler462
August 13, 2007, 12:41 PM
Being as how Cheney is hard headed anyway, a couple of stray shot didn't hurt him. Had he received the full load, it would have been very sad.

Concerning the poster that stated that a shotgun blast will not knock a person down, please read that I indicated that was with a bullet proof vest. When a vest absorbs the full impact, it is much different than the shot being absorbed by muscle and flesh. Yes, it will knock a person down wearing armor. The vest doesn't prevent being hurt. It keeps the shot from penetrating but thae person wearing the vest is going to have bruises and maybe a broken rib or two.

A shotgun blast is the most deadly firepower available to the civilian world. It doesn't matter if it is #9 or 000. The person on the receiving end is going to be hurt or killed.

A vest only stops penetration. The energy is still transferred to the person shot. Cheney got stung by a couple of stray flyers. Otherwise we would have another VP. A shotgun is very deadly with anything in the snout.

mikejonestkd
August 13, 2007, 12:48 PM
Uh, Cheney wasn't the one shot....he was the one doing the shooting.....:D

00 is just fine for conversational distance confrontations....

a load from a shotgun will not knock you down....you may fall over after being shot but it isn't like in the movies.

EEL92fs
August 13, 2007, 12:51 PM
mikejonestkd I was just saying that ..You beat me to it Cheney was doing the shoot'n

CDFT
August 13, 2007, 02:03 PM
It was a 28 gauge at quite some distance. We're talking 12 gauge within twenty feet. Though I question how effective any weapon not made of silver would be on a lawyer... ;)

I prefer the idea of buckshot myself, though. Of course, looking at the ballistics data I've been shown I'd even consider #4 to be a good shot if you're very worried about where any stray shots end up. Would only fly through three interior sheetrock walls (though even the 00 would only have SOME of it go through four).

Mike Irwin
August 13, 2007, 02:37 PM
I have 5 rounds of No. 4 buck in my home shotgun.

Nearly 1.5 times the payload weight and nearly double the total energy.

Anyone thing 27 pellets of that at household range isn't going to adjust someone's attitude?

If, however, it doesn't, I have 5 rounds of S&B 2.75" 00 buck, 12 pellets, in a butt cuff.

bbqbob51
August 13, 2007, 10:06 PM
I have #4 buck in my 20 ga Stoeger dbl barreled coach gun. I always figured that would be enough at close range, even that 20 gauge kicks enough with that load to convince me that the receiving end must be plenty unpleasant!

woodland
August 14, 2007, 02:02 AM
Uh, Cheney wasn't the one shot....he was the one doing the shooting.....


Oops! My bad. How could I get tht wrong? I knew that. Long day I guess!

Nanuk
August 14, 2007, 12:37 PM
I never heard of any police or military unit using birdshot in shotguns, and I have been Military Police, City Police and a Fed.. I have seen one person killed with birdshot, but it was across the room. (3 feet from the muzzle).

Merk_fmr8511
August 15, 2007, 01:25 AM
Nanuk,

When I was stationed in DC, our riot control training was with 12-gages using #6 lead bird shot. We used 3 shooting positions. 1st was a kneeling sorta leaning forward with the butt stock against the inside of our leg with the muzzle 4 inches from the deck. (That let the shout bounce off the ground into peoples shins) 2nd shooting position was from the hip. 3rd was our FPF shooting off hand going for center mass hits.

45Marlin carbine
August 15, 2007, 07:13 AM
basically the bigger the shot size the bigger the intended target. since all I can find in 3" buck for my 20 is #1 thats what I use, but my 12 I have 3&4 ought. bigger shot retains energy at longer range. I have taken deer with both 3&4 in my 12 ga. 'long tom' full choke, quite a recoil. I try for neck shots as it do mess some meat up! I haven't taken one with my 20 yet, I keep it for my nephew or maybe a friend to hunt with if the situation arose. I have no doubt it would do the job inside 100 ft. with a good shot.

Nanuk
August 15, 2007, 08:17 AM
Merk,

I had never heard of that technic. Sounds effective.

VA9mm
August 15, 2007, 12:19 PM
Bird-shot is for the birds. No I'm not a cop and have never shot anyone. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. My 870 is loaded with Ranger reduced recoil 00 buck.

RsqVet
August 15, 2007, 06:54 PM
We shoot to stop and should tailor our choices in that department to maximize our advantage while minimizing collateral damage, sure if you live in a apartment building you ahve some hard choices to make, but for most of up 4 buck or bigger will minimize the collateral risk and maximize our advantages in stopping power.

BTW what LE agencies use less that 00 Buck? And is their mission much more littered with chances for collateral damage than the avarage home defense situation?

bbqbob51
August 15, 2007, 08:45 PM
Oops! I actually have #3 buck in my 20ga Stoeger. Enough for me!

nutty ned
August 15, 2007, 09:11 PM
Everyone miss the question--- it is for deer, maybe bear.

kellyj00
August 23, 2007, 08:13 AM
I used to load 000 buck. it's like hitting someone with 9 .38 caliber bullets at once. or at least, that's what the fella who sold htem to me said. I said "how many do I need?" he replies "none, I hope."

I bought a few boxes. Shot a few at the range, enough for me to say "ooh, ahhh" but that's it.

Seriously, how strong of ammo do you need? If you're that convinced that you'll need a 000 shell to knock down a bad guy in your home, you need to move. No question about it.... I keep a rem870 by my bed loaded with 00 and slugs. I've got 15 rounds of #1 buck in a drawer, and maybe 10 more slugs and 10 more 00 buck rounds. You know how it ended up liek that? I bought 000 buck, decided "uh, at close range a slug would be better" so I bought slugs then I thought "maybe buckshot" so bought buckshot. traded off the 000 stuff, and got some #1 very recently.

As I get older, I realize that a home invasion is a very UNLIKELY possibility...and that a car accident or lung cancer is very LIKELY in comparison, so I started wearing my seat belt... but I still smoke. hmmm.

newerguy
August 23, 2007, 08:23 AM
I knew of a police department that used to issue some of their people #6 (I think) shot to shoot out street lights in the event of a protracted shootout at night. I don't know if they ever used it.

Rimrod
August 23, 2007, 11:34 AM
Actually there isn't that much of a difference in size between 00 and 000 buck. You do get more pellets with the 00 though and it is every bit as effective and usually more available than 000.

Jarhead04
August 23, 2007, 01:40 PM
As a Marine I can say that when we trained with the M1014 shotgun (Benelli Super 4) we used Slug and 00 buck. However birdshot was used for weapons familiarization and when we would shoot lots of rounds. in other words slug and 00 buck are for the firefights and bird is for training.

Rmstn1580
August 23, 2007, 02:02 PM
Dead is dead. You can't kill anything but dead.

But an explosion is nice