Need a Good 1873 SAA Copy

[charles isaac]

I heard you guys know whats on the up and up when it comes to old time sixshooters and would be able to get me some answers. I have been reading the posts and there is definitely some knowledge here!

I am looking to buy a Colt SAA Copy. I had a Colt about 25 years ago, but do not want to pay that kind of money. I just want a good holster gun/shooter with some wear, not a new gun at a new gun price.
I want a non standard barrel length because the standard ones are either too long or too short. The standard grip is too short so I would like it to have an 1860 Army Model grip in 45 Colt/45 acp. It has to be the same size as an original Colt, so no oversized Rugers and no Italian Clones. I have seen too much breakage with them while my Colt kept going. This gun will emulate the Colt of my lost youth.

Here is the list for quick reference:

6" to 6 1/2" barrel.

M1860 Army grip.

45 Colt and 45 ACP.

Walnut grips

Fixed sights

No Italian clones or Rugers

A vintage Tom Threepersons style holster by Heiser, Lawrence or SD Meyers.

Where is a good place to find this? What are my choices for manufacturers?What would a setup like this cost?


If no one can give me any answers, at least point me to where I can get some.
Thanks, Charles

[T. O'Heir]

"...No Italian clones or Rugers..." That just about rules out everything. You're looking at a custom made revolver.
"...no oversized Rugers..." What Ruger single action is that? The Vaquero is a copy of the SAA with modern internal parts.

[Hafoc]

Well, good luck.

It's good that you have a precise idea of what you want, but you're specifying a long list of custom features. A second cylinder for another cartridge, a barrel cut to a custom length, getting a custom oversize grip fitted-- it's all stuff that's been done before. But the odds of finding everything already set up just like that on one gun are pretty slim. And by saying "no Italian clones, no Rugers" you've pretty much eliminated anything that would cost less than a Colt or USFA. A Colt or USFA without any of your custom features, that is. (I'm presuming of course that Brazilian clones or whatever other similar clones don't interest you either.)

Guns set up with both .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders do exist, but the most common ones are Rugers.

I can think of four things you might try:

1. Haunt the online gun auction sites and hope that I'm wrong, that exactly what you want is out there and someone is ready to sell it to you for a used-gun price.

2. Check into the Bisley. Odd-looking grips that puppy has, but they're the most historically accurate oversized grips for a SAA-type revolver. I've heard of some with 5.5 inch barrels, which is close to what you want.

3. Start saving your money to hire a custom pistolsmith.

4. Find a way to fake it. Shortening a barrel 7.5 down to 6 inches wouldn't be excessively expensive. For the other end, you might be able to order, or make for yourself, a set of grips for a standard SAA gripframe where the grips surround the bottom of the grip frame and continue down beyond it. Grips that surround the frame are pretty standard with double-action revolvers now. I can't see why you couldn't make some 1860 Army-shaped oversized grips for an SAA, made along similar principles. Except, of course, for the fact that fitting them would be a royal pain.

[joab]

Where is a good place to find this?Gun store Gander Mountain comes to mind
What are my choices for manufacturers?Colt (Cowboy) USFA
What would a setup like this cost? about $2000

[charles isaac]

Thanks for the info. SAA prices really have gone up since the '80s! I have been more into automatics but want another old west gun.

Joab, $2000!?! It's not like I asked for it to be made from fine German steel! What is a Colt (cowboy) USFA?

Hafoc, what are the Brazilian clones? Do these hold up better than the Italian guns? Are the Italian guns better now than they were 25 years ago?

T. O'Hier, I have held the rugers and they were bulkier and heavier than my Colt was, not to mention those huge adjustable sights!

My Colt was cut down from a 7" Peacemaker and an 1860 Army grip and trigger guard was screwed on to the Colt revolver frame. I was told it was an 1860 Army frame when I bought it and it had a longer grip than the Colt original. Other shooters always said that it was not original and was worth a lot less than one that was original and I ended up selling it. None of the pistols I have owned since have handled like my old Colt. I was young then but never should have sold it.

Thanks

[Hafoc]

The Brazilian clones I know of are the Taurus Gaucho. They've got mixed reviews. I had one for a while. It was beautifully timed and beautifully polished and had a great trigger and shot Way Over There, so I had to send it in for a replacement barrel. I don't have it any more. I guess my review is kind of mixed too. :D

The Colt Cowboy is a lower-priced SAA clone from Colt.

USFA, United States Firearms, at http://www.usfirearms.com , is a US-based clone manufacturer. They offer the Rodeo, a matte-finished clone designed for Cowboy Action Shooting, starting at $815 I think, but my general impression of them is they'll make blamed near anything you can think up-- if you're willing to come up with the money.

One of their products I clicked on, and lost the page so I don't know which, had elongated grips as an option for $395 extra. (On my budget $395 is about the price of a whole gun, if I'm going to look at it without nearly fainting.)

Italian guns? They seem to vary. Even from the same manufacturer, they seem to vary. The same basic firearm can be had from many dealers, with different degrees of finish, for various prices. You want finely made and highly polished? They'll make up a shipment of those for you. Something plain and utilitarian? No problem. Something slapdash and barely functional? They'll do that too. That's my impression of them; some names good, some not so good, even if they ultimately came from the same factory. If someone else knows better, feel free to correct me.

For what it's worth, I've got a pair of Uberti-made Schofield replicas that Uberti sold under their own name, and they've been great so far. Had a couple Uberti black powder revolvers once, and those worked fine too. You hear the name of Cimarron Firearms Co. quite a lot. I think theirs started out at the Uberti factory too. I've read good reviews on them, but never owned any.

I'll step in for T. O'Heir and speak on the Ruger Vaquero, since I had one of those once too. The Ruger New Vaquero, the one they're making now, really is just the size of the Colt SAA, although mine felt a little heavier than the Colt SAA clones. It's got fixed sights, not the adjustable ones (you're thinking of a Blackhawk there). It's got the standard Ruger coil spring action. Doesn't load or unload using the same procedure as a Colt or a Colt clone. On the other hand, Rugers don't seem to break down so often.

You can blow up a New Vaquero. Be warned that it gives up a lot of the extra steel you'd find in the Old Vaquero or the Blackhawk, and therefore can't take the high pressure "Ruger Only" loads some reloading manuals give. But you're very unlikely to ever get a Vaquero to wear out. That's whether you're talking the original one or the new model.

[joab]

Joab, $2000!?! It's not like I asked for it to be made from fine German steel! What is a Colt (cowboy) USFA?You specified US made
That rules out just about everything but Colt or USFA
Gander Mountain has a Colt Cowboy for about $1200
Gubnbroker lists them used for around $1000
USFA's low line Rodeo is listing there for around $700 used
Add the custom grip, cut& crown the barrel and relocate the front sight
The price is going to get up there

[charles isaac]

Sorry for the confusion Joab. I did not want an Italian copy or a Ruger. I did not know what other copies there are from other countries. Others have stated there are some pretty good ones from South America and that not all of the Italian guns are junk.

So I guess I would be willing to buy an Italian or South American if they are that good.

Thanks

[charles isaac]

Hafoc those are great details you provided. I think maybe I could try an Italian if they are OK. I do not want any special finish. Blued would be fine.

Thanks

[T. O'Heir]

"...those huge adjustable sights..." No adjustable sights on a Vaquero. You're thinking of the assorted Blackhawks. Not the same thing at all.
The Colt "Cowboy" weighs 38.5 oz. The Vaquero 41 oz. That 2.5 oz makes the Ruger much stronger.

[m-g willy]

The gun you want isn't made!
You could get one of the new Ruer Vaqueros that have a smaller frame closer to the size of the Colt.
Then you could put a super blackhawk grip frame on it .
Or you could get a Hartford Uberti that is the closest thing to the org. Colt made ,and get a 1860Army grip frame and grips for it.

Willy

[joab]

Sorry for the confusion Joab. I did not want an Italian copy or a Ruger. I did not know what other copies there are from other countries. Others have stated there are some pretty good ones from South America and that not all of the Italian guns are junk.If you don't want Italian or Ruger that leaves you with Colt or USFA
Those South American guns are made by Uberti, just like every one else's

Unberti makes a good qualilty gun for a whole bunch less

If I remember correctly there is no billboard stating that it was made in Italy, I think you have to look for that info

The same gun in Uberti would start at about $400 used

Personally if I was going to modify a gun to the extent that you want to I would do it to a used gun

With this CAS craze going you can find many that have barely been fired

I bought one in 44-40 for $175 used that looked NIB except that there wasn't a box

[vpjack]

just saw a new one this weekend from Taylor's and Co. out of Winchester VA, It's there model called the smoke wagon, yes it is an Italian clone, however it has a great feel, very good fit and finish, thinned grips and a company that stands behind every thing they sell. it only comes in standard lengths, no 6.5 in barrels. As for exactly what your asking for, have some deep pockets. I can give you the names of some smiths that can do that, but you will pay.

Jack

[joab]

just saw a new one this weekend from Taylor's and Co. out of Winchester VAMade by Uberti, just like everyone else's

[mykeal]

joab is correct, Taylor's is a distributor, not a manufacturer. They are one of the better ones, with a good reputation for handling quality products and good customer service.

[mec]

leaving out the Ubertis. Actually, the Current Ubertis can be very good. The ones from Cimarron arms are inspected before sale and generally shoot as well as any SAA. They are not quite up to the USFA Pre War but cost about 1/3 the amount.

Two Ubertis we just shot had very minor short falls. The 38/40 dropped the locking bolt a bit shy of the notch leed and the 32-20 has a small amount of end float with the hammer down. Both are very accurate and have a shooter's advantage of the spring/plunger hand spring set up. Out of the box, the actions seemed a bit rough- not unusual even with Smith and Wessons until the parts seat.The guns smooth up after a box of ammo and the trigger pulls settle in at under three pounds. A wire trigger/bolt spring drops the release to about a pound and a half.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26256&stc=1&d=1187010711

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26257&stc=1&d=1187011342

[Musketeer]

I have an Uberti Cattleman (SAA Clone). Uberti makes different quality level guns. Ones sold by Uberti and Cimmaron are generally pretty good. Function is no different but the Cimmaron tend to have more special features/models and finer finishes. For a simple 4 3/4, 5 1/2 or 7 1/2 45LC it is hard to beat a stock Uberti for price and quality. I have put about 1,000 rounds through mine with the only thing needed being a tightenning of the screws on teh grip frame once.

I don't know who said that the South American guns are made by Uberti but I have never heard anything about that. The Taurus guns are made by Taurus and most of the reviews I have had on them have been favourable.

If you want a true SAA gun and type action though you want a Colt or USFA followed by an Uberti. There are other Itanlian guns, Amri San Marco comes to mind, but they sound like a box of rocks when the action is manipulated.

If you want a gun that will feed anything you put into it, looks LIKE a SAA and is renowned for durability well beyond the true SAA then get a Ruger.

[joab]

I don't know who said that the South American guns are made by Uberti but I have never heard anything about that.That was me
I must have been skipping school the week they taught us that Italy was not in South America, my bad I had completely forgotten about those Gauchos

[James K]

IMHO, the only modern gun that FEELS like the old Colts is the USFA. Even the new Colts just don't seem quite right.

The only problem is the barrel length. You might try USFA and see if they will do a special barrel length; if not, an outfit like Cylinder and Slide could cut a 7" barrel to 6" and remount the sight.

The Army grip frame is no problem; repros are available and will run around $120 for the two parts. The one-piece stocks will cost another $40-50. Some fitting may be required, though.

None of that will be cheap or fast (C&S is always backed up). The question is how much you are willing to pay to recapture a dream.

(BTW, for those unfamiliar with the 1860 Army, the grip is longer than the Navy or SAA and allows an excellent full grip. It was not at all uncommon in the old days to put Army grips on the SAA.)

Jim

[mec]

http://usera.imagecave.com/mec/red.jpg

The pre-war is one of USFA's upper end options. they stayed at circa $1200 for a while but the current list is $1475.
http://usera.imagecave.com/mec/125july2006.jpg
I can somehow, Not Blaime anybody for not wanting to pay this much. It is the best you can get though.


http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/prewar.asp

[charles isaac]

Mec, those pistols you are posting pictures of are all very nice nice. Mine looked almost that good when I got it but the barrel, cylinder and ejector tube got worn down to the metal pretty quick and the cylinder got a circle worn around where the catch stops it.

How do you keep them so nice? Thanks for posting those pictures. I have not seen many of those guns that look as good as yours do.

[William Manns]

I have a (never fired) Colt (copy) SAA , .45 cal, 7 1/2" barrel. This gun was made in the early 60s by Great Western Arms Co. of LA, Calif. I can email pictures if you have interest. I think they went out of business in 64. They made the first Colt SAA replicas starting in the early 50s. A great looking gun. $900.

[mec]

One important factor is that I don't holster carry them very much. Another are these holsters a friend makes and lines with fake fleece. They don't rub the finish off at all. I'm not sure how durable the lining is but I've carried a 60 army and 62 navy in one of them for quite a while
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26306&stc=1&d=1187280760
The cylinder ringing can be avoided by proper loading and cycling techinique if the revolver is well timed to begin with. (load one, skip one, load four- hammer all the way back and down on an empty chamber.)

[charles isaac]

I loaded mine with the method you describe. I learned from an oldtimer that actually carried one as a policeman.

He liked the way it pointed and the speed of the first shot. After he shot a guy that already had his gun pointed at him, he would never give up his Colt for a modern swing out revolver!

He died back in the early 80's and I will never forget the tricks he taught me. He would file a notch in the rim of a cartridge and lower the hammer in between 2 chambers and I have never met anyone that knew this method and they always said it was dangerous.

I never carried mine that way because I figured 5 shots was good for anything I had to do, like a back up for my deer gun, camping or walks in the woods.

[mec]

I haven't heard of that either. He was imitating the old hammer notch/safety pin system from the percussion revolvers.

[joab]

He would file a notch in the rim of a cartridge and lower the hammer in between 2 chambersOld old school

[Musketeer]

He died back in the early 80's and I will never forget the tricks he taught me. He would file a notch in the rim of a cartridge and lower the hammer in between 2 chambers and I have never met anyone that knew this method and they always said it was dangerous.
:eek:

I assume you meant CYLINDER and no CARTRIDGE. As stated he was depending on that little notch to keep the cylinder from revolving all the way to place a loaded round under that uncocked hammer. That is a lot of faith to put in a little home made notch... There is no use trying to convince some old timers though.

Needless to say, don't do that!

[Jim Watson]

I have heard of lowering the hammer with the firing pin between two cartridge rims, like a C&B's "safety pin" but do not consider it very secure. I think Freedom Arms or the early big North Americans had dimples in the rear cylinder face for the purpose.

I read Skeeter Skelton about the load one skip one ritual a long time ago, but would only do it with factory loads in a clean gun. I like to be able to roll the cylinder to check for high primers, thick rims, or fouled chambers before I let the hammer down on the empty. Seen too many CAS shooters tie up guns by not checking for free rotation.

[charles isaac]

One was pretty promising, had a 6" barrel but it was a .38.

Most of the single actions I am finding are .38s. Why have so many people bought these in .38?

.45s are not that hard to handle and these .38 guns are heavier. Heavier and less power seems very odd to me.

One pawn shop guy said there are a lot of these used in .38 because the people that used them graduated to a .45 or .44 after gaining enough experience with the low powered gun.

The prices on the used guns have been very reasonable so far. I especially like the USFA guns because they seem to have the feel of a good quality pistol and look exactly like my old Colt did.

[mec]

light loaded 38s are popular with gamesmen in the Cowboy action matches. Less recoil and they can shoot faster.

[charles isaac]

Quote:
The Army grip frame is no problem; repros are available and will run around $120 for the two parts. The one-piece stocks will cost another $40-50.

Sir:
I found a whole Colt 1860 for $125. This must be some kind of a crazy good deal if the grip and triggerguard is $160-$170!

[charles isaac]

OK, the grip on this 1860 Army is NOT the same size as the 1860 grip that was on the Colt SAA I used to own. It is much SMALLER.

Why is this new gun smaller?

So far, recreating the custom gun I used to own is not working out.

[Jim Watson]

One theory is that the clone labs took castings of original parts to make moulds for repros, but the materials used shrank when cured, so the parts based on them are undersize.