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mrlebowski79
August 5, 2007, 12:10 AM
I am fairly new to .22 rifles as I have only used my fathers old one. What .22 rifles would you recommend for target shooting? I am looking for a good, reliable, and accurate .22.

Thanks!

Socrates
August 5, 2007, 12:45 AM
http://www.cz-usa.com/data/productimg/main003.png

CZ 452. Drives tacks...

Dr S

"CZ 452: The poor mans Anschutz."

Friend has a couple of both, and, it came down to the shooter, not the gun.

oldbillthundercheif
August 5, 2007, 02:24 AM
Anschutz.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/zarganuts/anschutz2013.jpg

Scorch
August 5, 2007, 03:16 AM
I have several that I am quite fond of that shoot very well:
Remington 541T
Ruger 77/22 Target Grey Stainless
Winchester 75

Yes, CZs are nice, and Anschutz is legendary. But look around, there are a lot of very nice rimfires available, both production and semi-custom.

Martyn4802
August 5, 2007, 05:05 AM
What kind of target shooting are you interested in?
The two pictured above kind of shows the two extremes.
There are many 22 Rimfire rifles in the middle too.
Best out of the box accuracy from a semi automatic goes to the Thompson Center Classic. There are a number of excellent bolt action rifle that shoot well in the middle too, like all of the CZ offerings, the Ruger 77/22, and several Anschutz rifles, the older Anschutz model 54 and 64 rifles. If you want a rifle to dual purpose hunting, plinking as well as informal target shooting, Savage, Marlin and Remington make good ones. One of the nicest looking rifles is the Remington 547. It won't be available till later this year, but is has a Shilen barrel, and a beautiful stock. It's a bolt action rifle.
Ammo selection for a 22 Rimfire is important as 22's usually do not shoot all ammo equally well. You'll have to buy several brands of ammo to test to find what your rifle likes best. It's like load developing for a centerfire rifle. You must try different powders and bullets to test with a centerfire to get the right combo. With rimfire rifles, this amounts to different makes and lots of ammo to get the right one.
I shoot rimfire benchrest competetively, so I've been down the road on ammo selection. Wolf Match Target ammo shoots best in many target rifles. The very high velocity ammo doesn't normally shoot well in target rifles.

Martyn

Rimrod
August 5, 2007, 11:09 AM
There's a big difference between "target" and "match". ($$$$)

I vote for Marlin.

stillGHILLIE
August 5, 2007, 11:21 AM
CZ. A trainer can be had for less than $300 shipped to your dealer. Good triggers and great accuracy.

TPAW
August 5, 2007, 11:36 AM
Marlin Model 60. Cheap, reliable and accurate.........;)

22-rimfire
August 5, 2007, 01:40 PM
Depending on your budget, the lesser priced Marlin and Savage rifles are excellent choices for money. The Ruger 10/22's are very popular, but the out of the box accuracy is not typically excellent. Just depends on what your expectations are.

The Ruger 77/22's I read are a hit of miss thing. One will be a tack driver and the next one is only average in accuracy.

I seek better than 0.5" groups at 50 yds. That is my measuring stick on accuracy. My old Mossberg would easily do that and it was a $50 rifle.

I recently purchased a TC Classic and I'm still testing it. First trip out was to sight in a scope and generally test the rifle. They have a reputation of jamming some when new. Mine does infrequently, but it still jams. So far, I have used PMC Moderators (22 standard velocity ammo) with best groups at about 0.5" or dime sized at 50 yds, and the rifle hints at 0.25" 50 yd accuracy if I can do my part. I shall do better. Next trip out to the range, I intend to take a bigger selection of ammo to shoot and see how it does. I don't shoot competitively, but I do like to shoot well. Shooting less than 0.5" groups at 50 yds takes serious effort.

I really like my Remington 541-S 22 rifle. It shoots pretty consistantly at about 0.5" at 50 yds. I need to try the Moderators in it. It tends to shoot the Remington Golden bullets pretty consistantly.

My old Weatherby Mark XXII semi-auto 22 does well and I like the tubular magazine for easy loading. It will do 1 MOA at 100 yds. I want to put a new scope on it. Have the new Weatherby Mark XXII bolt action 22 on my "buy list" and have one ordered.

Hard to beat the CZ 452 for accuracy and sleek classic beauty. I am not partial to the stiff action though, but they are pretty rifles!

Wolf Match Target is one of the best buys for quality 22 ammo for disciplined target shooting. It can be hard to find at times. I buy it primarily at gunshows.

Bigfatts
August 5, 2007, 03:57 PM
There are many accurate rimfires that would make good informal target rifles. Many of the old Remingtons, Savages, Marlins, Mossbergs, etc. The H&R model 12 can still be had for reasonable money and makes a serviceable target rifle.

mrlebowski79
August 5, 2007, 04:13 PM
Taking a look at the Marlin 925, it seems right up my alley. Anyone have experience with his model?

Thanks for the insight.

arkie2
August 5, 2007, 05:35 PM
I have a 10-22 and was hitting silhouettes at the range (100 yards) 10 out of 10 times the other day so it's pretty accurate. I think though if I had to do it over I would go with the CZ. More expensive but you get what you pay for.

Average Joe
August 5, 2007, 07:07 PM
Ruger 10/22

sewerman
August 5, 2007, 07:30 PM
check out , russian american armory. and gunsatcost.com also centerfiresystems has the toz-whisper for $99! stanely's pro shop lists several russian rifles but you need to call on availibility. also try SSMEDWI.com they sell toz rifles. check out rimfirecentral.com look at russian biathlon and toz menus. gilbertsguns has ruskie iron and MGS has toz-99.

there's several tack driving .22lr bolt actions priced from $199,toz-99 to over $400 for the sobol,s-12 150 or biathlon basic for $332.

these are great guns well engineered and built like ....well good ruskie hardware komrad!

cheers

bodab
August 5, 2007, 07:37 PM
ruger 10\22

crowbeaner
August 5, 2007, 08:26 PM
I have an old Remington 511 that I'm fond of. Wish I'd bought that 541 that the local dealer had back a few years. Try to find a Rem 581 if you like bolt guns. A friend has one and it is a dandy. A 512 is the same as my gun but with a tubular magazine if that helps. CB

22-rimfire
August 5, 2007, 09:17 PM
I first ran into those Russian 22 rifles a couple of years ago. The word is that they are very accurate, but aren't as "pretty" as most American rifles. They are cheap too.

Rimrod
August 5, 2007, 09:37 PM
I have a 25M, magnum version of the 925, and it is great. I use it for jackrabbits in Wyoming and it doesn't know how to miss. My favorite .22lr is a Marlin 81TS. It has a tube magazine and will shoot shorts, longs and long rifles which is why I bought it. For the money Marlins are hard to beat. If you look at their models numbers now they added a "9" to the old models numbers so the 925 would be the old 25. My old 25M is now the 925M.

tuck2
August 5, 2007, 09:57 PM
Cooper 57 M LVT or a Annie 1710 but they are pricy.

Brad Clodfelter
August 6, 2007, 01:10 AM
It depends on what your definition of accurate is. CZ makes some good shooters for the money. They will shoot .500ctc or maybe less consistantly at 50yds for 5 shots with good ammo. Now if you are talking tack driving accuracy or match grade competition accuracy, a Suhl 150, Rem 40x, Win 52d, or Anschutz 54 would be a good bet. I have a Suhl 150 and it shoots exceptionally well. I recently changed barrels. But the Suhl factory barrel was a tack driver.

Here's what mine looked like when I got it.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/321786.jpg

Here's how it shot with the Suhl barrel.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/432896.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/444090.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/402278.jpg

Here's a few groups with the Benchmark barrel.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/502090.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/506429.JPG

Some of the old 40X's Win 52D's and older Anschutz 54's could turn in some very impressive groups as welll. I shot a Walther KK200 I believe, and it was a tackdriver too.

Brad

adrew1452
August 6, 2007, 01:31 AM
The 10/22 Ruger is a great rifle for target shooting. I recently bought the new 10/22 ruger camo edition. It runs about $219 without tax.

HighValleyRanch
August 6, 2007, 09:42 AM
It depends on what your definition of accurate is. CZ makes some good shooters for the money. They will shoot .500ctc or maybe less consistantly at 50yds for 5 shots with good ammo. Now if you are talking tack driving accuracy or match grade competition accuracy, a Suhl 150, Rem 40x, Win 52d, or Anschutz 54 would be a good bet. I have a Suhl 150 and it shoots exceptionally well. I recently changed barrels. But the Suhl factory barrel was a tack driver.
I'm impressed Brad!
Where are they made and who carries them.
What is their price, and what model is that?
Is that a flash hider on the end of that original barrel?
HVR

bentrod
August 6, 2007, 10:05 AM
I have a Kimber sporter and it is very accurate, 3/8" at 50yds. I can hold my own at my club's 100yd egg shoots. Lots of Anschutzs there. I haven't fired my Kimber enough to know what it really likes yet. Shells hang up in the mag at times, but I have read that it can be tweeked to eliminate this. This rifle will see some heavy duty squirrel action this fall.:D

mikejonestkd
August 6, 2007, 10:13 AM
Nice Shooting Brad!!!

My annie 1710 will come close to that but not quite as well, and certainly not as well on a regular basis. I am getting around .3 CTC at 50 yards with EPS. Sometime better, but usually a bit worse...

My 2 cents is it all depends on your budget.

For top end rifles look at the ones Brad mentioned. I would also throw in the Cooper too.

For low to midrange prices look at the CZ's and marlins, as well as the modern remington turn bolt.

Socrates
August 6, 2007, 12:54 PM
I was going to ask for folks to throw in the prices on those rifles. Also wonder if a Kreiger matchgrade barrel might make some of the less expensive rifles shoot like the more expensive ones?

Never got really obsessed with 22lr accuracy. Except in pistols... Sure would be intresting to hear some folks experiences, and progress in the field, what they started with, how well it worked, how much they spent, what did they finally settle on...

That kind of information would be really helpful.

CZ 452 and a cheap trigger job was as far as I got...

Plus FA 252.

Dr S

Brad Clodfelter
August 6, 2007, 02:59 PM
Thanks men.

That's a Hoehn(pronounced Hane) tuner on the end of the muzzle. They work. The Suhl will shoot several 5 shot groups in the .1's to .2's with even the original barrel. They are an East German gun. Mine was made in Nov of 1974. They made Suhls from the summer of 1974 to I believe 1991. They are in my opinion from gun to gun the most accurate factory barrel gun ever produced. I have yet to hear of a bad shooting Suhl.

Here's one on Gunbroker for sale.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=77331343

I'll show you guys a 5 shot group at 25yds that is practically in one hole. This group and the one below was with the original Suhl factory barrel. The factory trigger goes down to about 2oz too. Just a great shooting gun straight from the factory. In my opinion, all factory guns should strive to shoot this good.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/417152.JPG

Here's another that I had the gun shooting deadnut in the center, but you shoot out your aiming point, making it harder to keep the group as small. But you can see that these groups are no fluke. Eley Biathlon EPS was the ammo used on both groups. The top group measured .021ctc by the way.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/424895.jpg

The Suhl will consistanlty shoot holes for 5 shots at 25yds.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 6, 2007, 03:15 PM
Here's a couple more for sell.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976913251/Guns/Rifles/Benchrest-Varmint-Rifles-Misc/Suhl_150_Standard_22_lr.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976901556/Guns/Rifles/Benchrest-Varmint-Rifles-Misc/Suhl_150_22LR_single_shot_bolt_action_target_rifle.htm

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?db=aaafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=5893&query=retrieval

You can buy one of these Suhls for around $1000 like new in box if you look with the sights and factory wood stock. But they ain't easy to find.

Benchrestcentral.com has them for sell in the classifieds from time to time all souped up as a bench gun usually.

Davidsons out of Raliegh, North Carolina imported a bunch of these to the the states back in the middle 80's after word got out how dang accurate they were.

Jim Williams out of GA bought a bunch of the Suhls and had Tim McWhorter put them in McMillan benchrest stocks and adjusted the trigger down I would guess to around 2oz. Either Tim or Jim shot them afterwards and graded them from 5 to 10. A grade 10 Suhl was said to be the most accurate. I say they all are probably real accurate.

But some of the old 40X's and Win 52D's shot right with the Suhl's.

Century Arms I believe out of Florida has some for sell as well.

Brad

FirstFreedom
August 6, 2007, 05:13 PM
Just about everything's been said. Get an Anschutz if you can afford it - if not, well there's a reason I have three CZ 452s. :)

Brad Clodfelter
August 6, 2007, 07:41 PM
Quote:

Where are they made and who carries them.
What is their price, and what model is that?
Is that a flash hider on the end of that original barrel?

Suhl 150 made in Suhl Germany which is centrally located in Germany.

I will also tell you if you want to go a cheaper route if interested, call Mac Tilton and tell him to pick out a good to excellent condition Anschutz 54 with the dual extractor bolt. They will shoot pretty dang well too. Groups in the .2's or maybe less should be obtainable for 5 shots at 50yds if the barrel is in good to great condition. Mac can pick you out a very good one and guarantee it to shoot after you try it for say 2 weeks. If not, simply return it for another or get your money back if you like. You can't beat that guarantee. You can call Mac Tilton at 805 720 7720. If you want a Suhl, 40X or Win 52D, I would bet Mac could find you one.

Brad

HighValleyRanch
August 6, 2007, 10:31 PM
Thanks brad,
those are a little pricier than what I can afford right now.

The only anschutz I ever had was a little achiever. I liked that rifle, but sold it. Not as accurate as the bigger ones.

I've seen them annies goe for 500.00 used, but never was at the right place at the right time with the right money.

What do you think of the military kimbers with the target stocks.
Model 82 military I believe. Saw one for 575.00 the other day.
But really like that Rem 504T as well.

Bigfatts
August 6, 2007, 10:39 PM
There's a CMP Kimber for sale on Rimfirecentral.com for $595 as it came from the CMP. If you want a used Anschutz check it out over there. They come up quite often. They are a good choice. The Mossberg trainers are also usually quite accurate as well as the H&Rs.

Brad Clodfelter
August 6, 2007, 11:05 PM
The Kimber 82G's shoot ok. You can't get parts for them anymore other than off another gun. But the same can be said about a Suhl.

I would stay away from the 504's period. I have read to many negatives about them from their owners.

If money is an issue, I would just buy a CZ American or varmint for now. They shoot pretty good for the money.

Brad

Martyn4802
August 7, 2007, 05:04 AM
Take a look at the new Remington 547 due out later this year. It should be a winner.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/premier_dealer_exclusives/model_547.asp

Martyn

Brad Clodfelter
August 7, 2007, 07:43 PM
HiddenValleyRanch,

I just wanted to tell you that you can buy an older used Anschutz 64 for around $400 or so. Some of these were imported by Savage to the states back in I believe around 1970 or so. These guns imported by Savage were stamped Savage/Anschutz. But any Anschutz 64 should shoot pretty dang well. I would say it's safe to say they will out shoot a CZ consistantly. Check www.gunbroker.com or www.gunsamerica.com The guys that have the Anschutz 64's say they shoot real good.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 7, 2007, 07:47 PM
Here's a Savage/Anschutz 64 on gunbroker for sell.

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/077400000/77400463/pix829474406.jpg

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=77400463

Limeyfellow
August 7, 2007, 07:59 PM
You could always pull out a trusty Winchester 52.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/i/limeyfellow/winchester52.jpg

Thats mine though I could do with a different stock on it, but for target .22 shooting its hard to beat.

Brad Clodfelter
August 7, 2007, 08:09 PM
Limeyfellow,

Nice 52D you have there I'm guessing.

They shoot real well from guys I know who have them.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 10, 2007, 07:55 PM
This was just posted over at benchrestcentral.

I thought I would show you guys that might be intersted.


suhl 150

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, We just got a flyer from Century Arms that mentions they have a small number of Suhl model KK150 rimfires rifles for sale. They are priced at $599. They have other rimfire target rifles on the flyer as well. Might want to check it out. Go to their web sight centuryarms.com and go to firearms, then page 13, 14, 15 and you'll see em'. their phone is 800-527-1252. Just thought you'd like to see a new source, Russ Haydon

Socrates
August 10, 2007, 09:33 PM
Not so good pictures of my CZ, with Elite 3200 scope.
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/CZ452/cz4524.jpg
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/CZ452/cz4522.jpg
Need to generate targets in the near future...

Dr S J.D.
PS
Kind of curious: Given that the above rifle is very accurate, and, you can get CZ's down to ounce triggers, wouldn't it be cheaper to just put a Kreiger barrel on the CZ then buy a new rifle, and wouldn't the CZ be as accurate as the other target guns mentioned? Ideas, thoughts???

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 06:20 AM
It would cost you around $600 to put a custom barrel on a CZ. Then you would have to buy a benchrest stock and have pillars installed and bedded for say another $500. Then you would still have the problem with the trigger of getting it down to 2oz. Then you still wouldn't be guaranteed how good it would shoot. Dozens upon dozens of guys have tried to soup up CZ actions with custom barrels and gave up. I know of one CZ from I believe NY that was competitive up there. But to be competitive nationally a CZ just ain't going to cut it.

These actions are what most benchrest folks build on and all have proven to be winners. Rem 40X being the most popular, Anshutz 54, Suhl, Turbo, Hall, and 52D.

Socrates
August 11, 2007, 06:52 AM
Thanks
I think it would probably cost me about 500 bucks to get the barrel installed, but, I'm blessed that way. As for trigger, 8 oz would be about as low as I could go, and, over travel at the level I think you gentlemen are shooting would be an issue..

Still, the kits for CZ triggers are so cheap, it's absurd, like 15 bucks. I did have the trigger done already by my gunsmith, and, it's about 2 pounds, maybe a bit less. Funny part is my 375 has a single set trigger that breaks in ounces, but with just a wee bit more recoil then the 452.;)

I use 22lrs as mainly trainors for bigger guns, so, if you notice my 22lr has a kickeze pad, stock is chopped like my 375, and, has the same Elite 3200 scope on it. I'll see if I can get some decent groups with it...

Brad: thanks for the info, and for everyone that's posted here with specifics on the better level target rifles.

Dr S J.D.

PS What state is Mac Tilton in?

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 07:15 AM
Your welcome. Nice looking CZ by the way. I will try and get a picture of my Suhl with the new Benchmark barrel.

Brad

bodab
August 11, 2007, 07:23 AM
a few of my 10\22's....all stock.

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 07:49 AM
Here's a picture of my Suhl with the new Benchmark barrel put on by Gene Davis.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/510625-big.JPG

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 07:57 AM
That's a James Pappas one piece rest.

Brad

HighValleyRanch
August 11, 2007, 09:37 AM
Nice rest.
See my thread about rifle sleds. Does that clamp the rifle in?

What's that clamp on the middle of the barrel do?
Right at the end of the fore end?

Don't know if this is accurate enough, but this sponsor shows a 3 shot target going through the same hole at 75 yards! With a marlin 917 no less.
Price for accurizing is only 295.00
http://www.aquilafirearms.com/CustomRiflePackages/Marlin_917.htm

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 10:16 AM
No it doesn't clamp the gun to the rest. But you can get dead-still accuracy from this baby. The clamp on device above the stock is called a Hennrich mid-barrel tuner. I can't tell you for sure if they work or not, but I'm going to take it off the next time I shoot to see how it shoots without it.

Brad

Socrates
August 11, 2007, 04:16 PM
Nice EVERTTHING!!! With that setup do you pull the trigger, or just use a lanyard??:D Just kidding. What kind of scope are you using?

What does the rest run?

I still don't get why the CZ wouldn't work. Accuracy problems with actions are usually related to the action flexing
under firing. I can't really see that happening with a Kreiger barreled 22lr. Plus, the CZ action is a mini mauser, and really strong. Still, getting from a .5 pound to 1 pound trigger, to 2 oz, is a huge jump, and, that alone would make, I think, at the level you are doing, a difference in accuracy.

Dr S J.D.

Just for fun, here's it's big brother, that has a set trigger that breaks well under a half pound:

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/500%20Nitro%20Express%20and%20375/Seanshooting375inrecoil.jpg

pps
HAVE TO POST THE TARGET FROM THE ABOVE LINK, ON THE MARLIN ACCURIZING. BEST GROUP AT 75 YARDS I'VE SCENE:
http://www.aquilafirearms.com/images/Marlin%2017%20Hummer/clip_image002.jpg

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 04:36 PM
Thank you very much.

The rest was $675 plus $20 shipping.

Here's the info on the rest.

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?db=dddequipment&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=1089&query=retrieval

I shoot free recoil most of the time. I can hold the gun to shoulder and still shoot holes for groups. To shoot free recoil and not hold the gun, you need a 2oz trigger at least.

The scope is a Weaver T36 which is a 36X fix power scope.

The action believe it or not makes a difference in the outcome of total accuracy to be purely true. True, a barrel makes up the most part for any gun to be a shooter, providing the nut behind the butt is a very good one, and your set up, ammo, and conditions are good. But a good action is more than just a good action to thread a barrel on it, and your ready to shoot holes. A good action has to have consistant ignition from the firing pin. Without it, you won't more than likely be able to shoot it consistantly. A beefy action like the 40X just gives the barrel a more solider action to thread to. I'm not saying you need a hefty action like the 40X, but a lot of shooters seem to do very well shooting competion rimfire events with them.

That 3 shot group is a great group, and not knocking it one bit, but the question is how often will it shoot consistantly. Shooting a group like that is doing something indeed, but remember too that is only 3 shots. I shot a 3 shot group at 100yds with my Cooper that measured around .120ctc, but it wouldn't shoot like that consistantly. Consistancy is what accuracy is to me.

Brad

Socrates
August 11, 2007, 04:45 PM
Brad:
When I first started shooting, the guy that first took me shooting was a former armour for the Navy, worked at Lockheed, and, his job was to take pictures of bullets, and projectiles breaching barriers, usually armour plating, with the worlds fastest camera. He brought 4 rifles. Two M14's, two M-16's, yes, they were selective fire capable. They also started as super match grade, and, he loaded match grade ammo for them, and totally tricked them out.

From the bench, with open sites, at 100 yards, a group over 3/4" that day was considered bad shooting, and, that was for 5-10 shots, not 3. Bob's rifles were all capable of sub .5 MOA, with open sites. Triggers were VERY light, just perfect rifles.

I was too stupid at the time to figure out that I was getting the chance of a lifetime, to shoot the finest, most accurate
rifles I would ever shoot. Ahh, youth. Wasted on the young.:(;)

Dr S J.D.
PS: Don't know if that's relevant to the thread, but, that 75 yard target got me thinking.
Remember going shooting in the mountains at a manhole cover at 300 yards, with open sites. Ring it easy everytime, and, come pretty close the a 3" group, centered on it. Using armour piercing ammo, it would blow through the thin parts of the manhole, and, on the thick part, we found a 3/4" spike sticking out the back, where the armour piercing spike had gone through the thickest part, and just barely been stopped. Those were the days...

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 04:59 PM
Socrates,

I got the priviledge to shoot 50BMG single shot rifle one day at the range. The guy was shooting a piece of probably 2in steel or so that he I guess nailed around it to hold it to the board at 275yds. The bullets were going in it, and some I believe were sticking out the other side. He even had tracer rounds, and ask me to shoot one, but I felt guilyy shooting his ammo, so I declined. I did watch him shoot the tracer rounds. I had a ball. I still wish I would have said yes on the tracer rounds. What was I thinkin?

Brad

Socrates
August 11, 2007, 05:17 PM
Brad:
I did shoot a tracer one day at the range, and, we had to go up range, find it, and make sure the tracer didn't start a fire.
Bob wasn't real delighted with my grabbing one of his tracer rounds, but, he was kind enough to put up with me.

.50's are fun, though my shooting was confined to a shoot off day, at Hunter Liget, National guard, and, the A2 was kind of over shadowed by the platform it was mounted on, an Abrahams A1 tank, with a 105mm cannon.

As for the Hunter Liget day: in the early 80's the National Guard would have a massive shoot off, getting rid of all ammo, so they could replace it each year with new stuff. This was usually in August. Went down, stayed with the tank crew, and, it was 105 degrees.

Some of my fond memories were watching a 105mm cannon tracer go through a tank target, hit a hill behind it, and bounce another 5-7 miles. The site at dusk, with all the tracers going down range was something to see.

I also shot a 105MM high explosive round at a squirrel, who, for some reason, had decided the firing range was a good place for a stroll. I can confirm that a 105MM cannon, using a 37 pound, HE round, at 2700 fps, is adequate in caliber for meadow lions...:D:eek:

It's really odd when you start calculating recoil in 77,700 foot pounds, but, it only moved the tank at 6fps. Seems faster then that. 60 tons of gun weight does tame recoil...

Dr S J.D.

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 05:33 PM
Socrates,

I bet I could spend a day talking to you in person, and learn a lot, and still wished I had another to hear more. It's great to talk to people like you who share some of their knowledge.

Thanks for posting the info. I truely enjoyed it.

It's great to go back when we were younger. They say the memories will last a lifetime.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 06:00 PM
Socrates,

I just seen your question that I apparently missed about what state Mac Tilton is in. Mac has a gun shop in Nevada. He used to have another in CA I believe, and he may still have I don't know. I spoke to Mac on the phone a couple of times, and he is my kinda guy. Extremely knowledgeable, and very nice too.

Here's his website.

http://www.mtguns.com/

Socrates
August 11, 2007, 08:01 PM
Brad,
Thank you. Likewise. I always enjoy people who've really gone off the deep end on certain gun projects, or, have gone through the learning crucible of competition, or for that matter, anyone that goes through the time and effort to really intensely learn any area of information. Everyone is a genius, I think, in some area.
I've always prided myself on not having much pride, and, being able to listen and learn from everyone. It's amazing how some people, with very little knowledge in other fields, can have so much information in one area. Kind of reminds me of most doctors ;).

As for shooting others guns, with expensive ammo, how about this fun little girl? .500 Nitro Express

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/500%20Nitro%20Express%20and%20375/Sean500NitroExpressinrecoil.jpg
The bullets are near a buck each, and, I was a little worried.
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Categoryid=15974&categorystring=653***690***

At over 10 bucks a round, I felt mildly bad about keeping two for my limited cartridge collection, but, what are friends for? The guys sure had no problem grabbing my rather expensive Weatherby 375 H&H ammo, now no longer in production, and shooting it.;) But, what are friends for???

Dr S

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 08:22 PM
Wow! Impressive to say the least. Very nice rifle.

I have been very fortunate to meet some of the best shooters in the nation in person and talking to a lot of them from forums such as these. These guys have got some real barn burners that will gobble and spit out my Suhl. These guys shoot for score, and good groups don't mean much shooting against their guns. In score shooting, you have to try and shoot the centers out on 25 different bulls. Score shooting is way tougher than group shooting.

Brad

HighValleyRanch
August 11, 2007, 08:23 PM
10 bucks a round really takes the fun out of things....unless it's someone elses mula!:)

A while back a guy at the range was shooting one of those winchester x150 inlines with expensive sabot slugs. He said that each shot was over 1.00 and by the mid morning, between his other expensive guns he had shot over 50.00 in ammo.

Me, I was really happy shooting my .22 and spending around 3.00.

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 08:55 PM
I'll show you guys a thread that will allow you to see just how good of shooting gun Joe Friedrich has. I have been to a few matches shooting these ARA targets up in St. Louis, and they are scored by worst edge scoring, meaning all of the bullet has to be in the 1/2in 100 ring to get a 100. Extremely hard just to shoot a 2400 score. Joe has 2 rifles that Bill Myers built for him that will shoot like this, and is getting another one built by Bill as well. Joe was the 2006 ARA Agg Champion shooting a Calfee barrel Suhl.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43254&highlight=250-25x

Brad Clodfelter
August 11, 2007, 09:03 PM
Here's a link to read about Joe Friedrich and what he has accomplished shooting in the rimfire world.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek078.html

Socrates
August 12, 2007, 02:53 AM
BRAD:
WHAT DISTANCE WAS THAT 2500 SHOT AT? 100 YARDS????:eek:

DR S J.D.

Brad Clodfelter
August 12, 2007, 07:02 AM
All ARA sanctioned rimfire matches are shot at 50yds.

To get a 100 on every bull, you have to dang near clip the little tiny dot in the center on 25 shots. Like I said, extremely difficult to shoot even a 2400. A 2200 is still a great score in all reality. If you don't get a 100 score, then the next highest amount you can get for that shot is 50, followed by 25, 10, and 0.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 12, 2007, 08:07 PM
Joe Friedrich just shot back to back 2500 scores today in a match in CA. I don't believe that has ever been done before.


http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44668

Socrates
August 12, 2007, 08:11 PM
Brad:
What ammunition would you recommend for my plinking with my CZ?

Which of the Ely offerings would best match what I'm using?

Also, have you ever played around with Paco Kelly's 22Lr accurizer? It seems to both size the entire cartridge, and, can put a nose on 22lr very similar to the Ely nose.

Thanks

Dr S J.D.

PS
Also, who would be the best person to buy a few thousand rounds from, both price wise, and wisdom wise?

Brad Clodfelter
August 12, 2007, 09:06 PM
Socrates,

I will tell you for precision accuracy it's hard to beat the black or red box Eley. I will bet that Joe was using the 2007 red box stuff to shoot those 2500's today. But for general informal target shooting, and for the money, it's hard to beat the SK Pistol Match or SK Standard Plus which is the same exact ammo as the Wolf Target by the way. The SK Pistol Match for $4 a box will shoot as good as any ammo for the money. My Suhl shoots some great groups with some of this stuff if you get a good lot just like any other known to be good shooting ammo. I buy mine from Champions Choice out of TN. Wolf Target or Wolf Extra is also pretty dang accurate ammo. The cheaper Eley is just that.

http://www.champchoice.com/splash.html?action=disclaim&page=/shop.php&query=pline=AMMO

I have no experience with the Paco tool. I have heard of it, but can't say one way or the other. I have weighed some rimfire ammo and found that the heaviest ones say 51.8 -52.2grs seem to shoot the best. My friend says that porosity or air bubbles in the bullet is what causes a lot of fliers from round to round and is the main factor for differences in the weight of each round. He's very smart. When a bullet has porosity, it will weigh lighter than a bullet that doesn't. This seems to cause the bullet to be more sporadic in its spin to the target making it veer off course more. I think he may be right from my initial testing of sorting by weight.

You can also try here.

http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html

These are 2 of the best places I know of to buy ammo for the price.

Brad

Brad Clodfelter
August 12, 2007, 09:19 PM
Socrates,

The group in the middle on the top row was shot with SK Pistol Match.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/502805.JPG

The group on the left below was with SK Pistol Match.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/506184.JPG

The group on the left is 10 shots with SK Pistol Match.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/437683.JPG

Like I said the stuff shoots real well for the price.

Brad

Socrates
August 13, 2007, 03:08 AM
Brad:

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give that SK ammo a try, since the best 22lr I have is the FA 252, and, it might do the stuff justice. My CZ might like it, to.
What's the difference between a Aushutuz 54 and 64?


Dr S J.D.

PS: What are the best value scopes for this kind of shooting? Somehow even though my Bushnell 3200 Elites are crystal clear, I don't think they were designed to see targets like this...

Martyn4802
August 13, 2007, 06:15 AM
Each 22 Rimfire rifle is unique as to what ammo it will shoot best.
Like load development for centerfire rifles, 22 Rimfire rifles require the same kind of testing to see what ammo, and what lot of ammo shoots best.
Eley and Lapua are good, as is Wolf Match Target. I sort Wolf Match Target by weight and rimthickness to equal the higer priced Eley and Lapua in terms of accuracy. Out of the 18 22 Rimfire target rifles I have, Wolf Match Target sorted shoot as well as the high end Eley and Lapua. So, I'm taking ammo that costs $3 a box and making it equal to the Eley and Lapua that goes for $12, or more per box. Lapua Midas L shoots better than the Lapua Midas M, in my rifles. I do have three rifles that shoot RWS R-100 best. You just need to bite the bullet and buy lots of boxes of ammo to test. Incidentally, SK and Wolf are made by the same company, with some of the offerings being identical. Most of my rifles shoot best with ammo that shoots at around 1058 fps. I wouldn't try any cheap ammo as it won't deliver accuracy.
I have a Denver Instruments APX 153 Lab scale to weigh bullets, and a Bald Eagle modified rim thickness gage. These deliver good results.
If you're not into sorting ammo at home, buy the high priced Eley and Lapua to try. The sorting is done at the factory as the weights and rims are all the same, for practical purposes.

Martyn

Brad Clodfelter
August 13, 2007, 01:05 PM
The Anschutz 54 is the heftier, stronger action over the 64 action. The barrels are supposedly the same specs. The 54 action can have the 5018 trigger which will go down to around 2oz for benchrest shooting. The 64 trigger won't be nearly as good. The 54 is a popular action to build off of. Most shooters who use the 54's in competition have sent them to a smith to have the action threaded, a custom barrel installed, dropped in a benchrest stock and properly bedded with pillars installed and add a tuner. Both the Anschutz 54 and 64 have pinned barrels. Suhl barrels are all pinned by the way, too.

Here's a little more info.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35788&highlight=Anschutz+54

When talking scopes, I myself like clarity with high magnification and fixed power for benchrest shooting. Weaver T36 scopes are hard to beat for both. Sightron 36x as well as Leupold 36x or 45x work well too. Some of the older Bausch&Lomb 36x scopes worked well too. The newer Bushnell Elite 4200 series scopes in variable power could work I would guess for informal bench shooting or target shooting in say 6-24x or 8-32x. But you don't see many of these in competition I would speculate because of them being varible power and contributing to point of impact changes from them not being a straight fix power. Fix power scopes are just less to go wrong when benchrest shooting.

Brad