Room Mates

[jrock18]

I'm starting college this fall in a pretty rough area of Philadelphia. I'm not worried about my first year because I have to live on campus in a dorm with 24/7 security, and a no-gun rule. So a gun wouldn't help me in that situation anyway. However next year I intend to live off campus as it's far cheaper in a rented apartment. In this case I would love to purchase a shotgun for self-defense, but I worry about my roommates as I would not be able to afford an apartment to myself. It is college so I expect to have random people in the apartment that my roommate/s know but I don't. Also, it's safe to assume that there will be times when my roommate/s and I are intoxicated.

While I trust myself inherently with any long gun, I have serious trust issues with other people. My grandfather taught me gun safety since the first time I ever looked at one of his guns. The best way to describe the level of respect and safety instruction that I've learned is that my grandfather would break water guns, cap guns, and gun toys in general if I pointed them at my brother or anyone else. It was a bit excessive, but it did the trick.

All of that being said I am really leaning towards continued reliance on my baseball bat until I can live on my own, because I just see something bad happening. It would be hard to find room for an adequate gun safe, and trigger locks are about as effective as a do not touch sign in my opinion.

I honestly think my decision's already made, but I would like to hear the opinions of everyone here.

[VUPDblue]

Adding a shotgun to the ingredients in the mix you describe is a bad idea. In that setting, if you can't secure it, don't have it. I feel you would be far better served if you had a small handgun in a lockbox bolted to the floor by your bed. That's how I did it.

[jrock18]

I'm only 18 presently, soon to be 19, and I'll only be 20 when I first get the apartment. Thanks to the lovely laws in place I won't be able to own a pistol for the next 2 years. In addition, although I look forward to owning a pistol and getting ccw when I'm old enough, I have no experience with handguns whatsoever. I'd rather put my trust into a nice shotgun, which I have ample experience using.

I do think a pistol is superior for home defense, but again the lessons taught to me by my grandfather included not trusting yourself with any firearm that you haven't put in ample time with on the range.

[oystermick]

I absolutly agree with VUPDblue. Right now there's very bad stuff going on in Philly. Having a gun entails the supreme responsibility of control of the weapon at all times. Temple or Penn (?) are in very bad areas of the City.
DO NOT BRING A GUN into an "iffy" situation into Philly.

[jrock18]

I'm attending Drexel which is literally across the street from Upenn.

I think I'm going to wait until I'm 21 and then buy a handgun, a safe, and apply for ccw. That way every thing is safe and there aren't any accidents. It's ridiculous that I can buy a 12 gauge shotgun, but can't own a pistol.

[Rob Pincus]

I had a room mate obtain one of my pistols from a drawer, obtain a loaded magazine from a second drawer, load the pistol and fire it accidentally into the floor while I was in college.

Not good.

My lack of thorough forethought allowed all of his transgressions and created the potential for much worse.

-RJP

[Creature]

Find a private room that you can rent...specifically a place that only you will have access too.

There are loads of affordable places that you can rent by yourself instead of having to rent a house or apartment with roommates...if you are willing to look and put in some leg work.

I rented a great little studio above a detached garage from a older couple in Upper Darby. They treated me like a son and I would happily volunteered to do any heavy labor they needed doing...like mow the grass or move the occasional odd piece of furniture for them.

They respected my privacy and offered an occasional home cooked meal if I was around. In turn, I never broke the house rules. Pops purposefully didn't ask I had a pistol for personal protection. I think he knew...and approved.

I really miss those fine folks!

Just an option to think about.

[jrock18]

The only issue with that option creature is that I need to be near campus as I can't afford the $1200 a year they want for me to bring my car, and the only places close to campus are campus housing and apartment complexes.

[jrock18]

BTW could anyone who lives in Pennsylvania give me a quick and dirty run down on the gun laws. As far as I can tell online it looks like you could just walk into a gun store, let them check your ID, and then buy a gun and walk out.

[redblair]

I'd avoid any gun where you can't keep unauthorized people from using it. Especially with the possible/ probable use of drugs and or alcohol are involved. You won't be safer. As Rob wrote someone can get access to it while you're not there and really bad things can happen. If you can't keep it in a safe it's not safe.

B

[ws6_keith]

1. Put a lock on your door and leave it locked if you are not in there. If your roommate is going to break in to get to your weapon, so could any thief. Personally, I prefer to live with roommates that I know and can trust (as I did in college and now at 35y/o too).

2. At 18, you can legally purchase a pistol from a private party in this country, just not from a FFL dealer. Unless it's prohibited in your state specifically, that is another route. At 19, I lived in Gainesville, FL, at the time of the Gainesville student murders. My dad gave me a .41mag revolver, for my personal protection. That was a lot easier to conceal in the room than a shotty would be, and it would be easier to wield in the confines of an apt. HOWEVER, you have to really thing about over penetration in terms of your roommate and neighbors.

[jrock18]

I forgot about that fact keith, but that means I couldn't buy a new gun right? Someone would have to buy the gun for me, and then me buy it from them but I think that's illegal. If I purchase a pistol I intend to get a glock 21 and load it with hp ammo, so over penetration shouldn't be a major issue right?

BTW - this is the shotgun that I was going to get.
http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G50577

[PPGMD]

No it's only illegal if the person can't otherwise own a gun. Anyways the easiest way would be to have your parents buy the gun for you. At least under Florida law that's perfectly legal. Obtaining ammo is an another problem has it's against the law for stores to sell handgun ammo to someone under the age of 21.

[jrock18]

I'll have to have a little convo with my grandfather because my parents make sarah brady look like Calamity Jane. I don't know if he'll do it for me just because my parents would turn it into WW3 if they found out.

I do have a question though. I'm 250 pounds with about 200 being muscle. I'm considered fairly strong and I lift weights and all that. Would I be able to become as proficient with a .45 as a 9mm, or should I learn to shoot on a 9mm and then progress to a .45?

[Tanzer]

Keg parties and guns go together like dynamite and bonfires. You have a lot of thinking to do. If you are responsible enough, you need a handgun and a FIRMLY THROUGH-BOLTED safe with a finger combo or similar failsafe and responsibility to keep absolutety silent about the fact that you even own one. Even then, I have concerns. Some Sigma PI guy sees his girl flirting with your room-mate and ANYONE in the house knows a gun exists? YIKES! Home invasions? (you'll be at class on a regular schedule).
Are you remembering WHY a gun is kept in the first place? Last resort for life and limb? You need a GOOD GUNSAFE!!! Hardware store bolt cutters make short work of strap throughs, and a good scewdriver will open any case. Firesafes are for fires! On many models the hinges can be tapped out.

I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, just concerned.
Be Safe and Good Luck!

[jrock18]

If I do get a pistol which won't be for at least the next year, I do intend to get a small gunsafe. I didn't know they made them that small until I looked. Like I said until now I never considered a pistol for self-defense in a home. I think if I did get one I'd tell my roommates just in case they needed to use it, but I'd definately drag them to the range with me and teach them how to use it.

[Creature]

You seem to be a big enough fellar to fist you way out of a predicament. Forget the gun for now...get yourself a set of brass knuckles and call it a day. Buy yourself a gun when you graduate and move in to your own digs.

[VUPDblue]

I think if I did get one I'd tell my roommates just in case they needed to use it, but I'd definately drag them to the range with me and teach them how to use it.Bad idea. For them to be able to use it, they would have to know the combo to your safe. You may feel fine with the roomies you choose at first but, believe you me, they can turn into the biggest headaches short of a divorce in a heartbeat. I lived with 5 other guys in college in a big row-house. One was my best friend since birth, and one more was my partner on the PD. The other 3 were great guys until one fell into a life of drinking and laziness and one more became a fairly major thief. I trusted them all the day we moved in together. I wouldn't pee on either of the last 2 if they were on fire now. Get the pistol, the safe and a decent disguise for it. Don't tell anyone about it and feel safe in the fact that you have a bit of protection just inches away.

[jrock18]

I am big enough to fight, and I have had minimal MMA training. Plus I wrestled for 4 years and played football for 2. A baseball bat was my first instinct, but I'd be happier with a gun. If I do go with a pistol I could always buy a computer case with a removable side panel and hook it up to my real computer like it's a server, but that would only be really really good camouflage not a safe.

If my roommates are big as well, I think our chances would be ok against any intruder.

[Creature]

They will grab what the think is a computer only to happily find it is a gun safe!

[Hallucinator]

Alcohol+gun+moron = endless litigation and grief. You can't control the morons in your life. If you can't secure the weapon, don't have it.

[skeeter1]

If you're REALLY lucky, you'll get a roommate like the one I had. He brought his semi-auto .22 handgun and I was able to leave mine at home. We were both experienced (and safe) shooters, so we had no reason to lock it up. It was right there in the dresser drawer with the understanding that either of us could use it if we felt the need.

I know the .22 isn't my first choice for SD, but it's better than nothing, and less likely to go through a wall and injure someone else. In a small space, even a .22 makes enough noise to get a BG's attention.

[Nwilliams184]

I had this same problem before purchasing my first pistol. I was too indeed worried about my roommate and any idiots that might come around that I did not know. I never keep pistols out in the open, nor do I tell people that I own firearms. My roommate knows and thats about it. I showed him everything about my gun, how to load,unload,mag release,slide lock, take down and some other things just so he wouldn't get "too curious" on his own. He doesn't even know where I keep it. I too am in college and people come around after the bars and are intoxicated. Like I said earlier no one knows about it and I don't let people randomly just wonder throughout my room.

I think with the right introduction to gun safety and rules, your future roommate(s) should abide by and learn to respect them and your firearm.

[mattro]

I would only attend a college that honored my right to defend myself.

There is a young man in a group of guys I shoot with who is getting ready to enter college. He is researching which college's will allow him to ccw.

I think that is very insightful for the young man.

[Tanzer]

+1 mattro
The safest place for it on campus is attached to a responsible you (VA Tech?). If you're going to be drinking till you stagger, forget the gun till you mature and you'll live a better life out of jail. Keep in mind that if you get charged with assault with your baseball bat or fists, you'll have trouble ever getting a gun.

[ws6_keith]

I think he's going to find that list to be short Mattro. :(

[joe07735]

There are no colleges that I know of that allow a student to carry and it's a bit late in the game to switch schools:p

Does anyone know of any gun ranges/clubs in the philly area. It would be cool if they offered rental lockers or the like for patrons to store their arms. I know it defeats the purpose of home defense, but at least I'd be able to own and practice with a firearm. Therefore, when I do manage to get my own place I'll have a weapon readily available that I have ample experience with.


As far as alcohol is concerned yes I do drink, but I never get to the point of retardation. Also, I would never attempt to handle a firearm with any amount of alcohol in me, not because I believe that 1-3 beers would impair me, but because god forbid something did happen alcohol makes one look negligent.

PS - I think alot of people are missing the point that I am ONLY 18 and CANNOT carry legally. If I believed that carrying a gun would be worth the legal trouble I would, but on a liberal campus, which sadly Drexel is, god forbid I printed or "flashed" someone my life as I know it would be over. If there was a known threat to me I would consider skirting the law, but as it stands I'm in no more danger than any other student, and probably less because of my size.

[jrock18]

Could someone please refer a Pennsylvania resident to this thread so that I can ask them a couple questions?

1.) What is the process like in PA to obtain a firearm

2.) Is an extendable baton legal?

3.) Does anyone know any good ranges in the Philadelphia area?

4.) Would anyone be willing to shoot with me if I traveled to their location/preferred gun range?

5.) Do you know if any ranges have a storage facility that I could pay to use?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[mattro]

Always carry a folding knife and a flashlight.

If you can legally do it, keep a pistol in your vehicle in a lockbox anchored down behind or under the seat. A long gun behind the seat hidden would be nice.

[jrock18]

I always carry a kershaw 3 inch folding knife, I use it for everything but I could definitely do damage with it if need be. I'm more interested in a baton because I'm a big guy so a knife is great, but why not use my size to my advantage and inflict some blunt trauma. I'm more of a "smasher" anyway I'd rather smack someone over the head and knock them out than stab/cut them. IMO a baton would be more effective in my hands because I'm not the nimble quick type, but more of a slow powerful type.

[Knotthead]

Hopefully someone with an understanding of PA's gun laws will check in to clarify matters, but I seem to recall that while long guns are easily acquired with a background check from a dealer, or without in a FTF transfer, handguns are more closely regulated and require a FFL to transfer. I seem to recall mention of some kind of backdoor registration for them as well.

As for securing a shotgun, if you can't get a gunsafe, would simply securing the ammunition in a smaller lockbox, when prudent, provide enough security? I'm not necessarily advocating this as a solution, but a consideration.

[jrock18]

If I can't secure a firearm I'd rather not own it. I would think that my room mates would be reliable, but they may have friends who aren't; and I can't risk some idiot getting his hands on a 12ga shotgun. Realistically I think it would be better if I bought a pistol and a small safe if I bought anything, but like I said this isn't an option for another year.

[philapdrcrt]

Could someone please refer a Pennsylvania resident to this thread so that I can ask them a couple questions?

1.) What is the process like in PA to obtain a firearm

2.) Is an extendable baton legal?

3.) Does anyone know any good ranges in the Philadelphia area?

4.) Would anyone be willing to shoot with me if I traveled to their location/preferred gun range?

5.) Do you know if any ranges have a storage facility that I could pay to use?

Thanks in advance for any help.

1)Purchase from FFL, requires PA-issued driver's license or non-driver ID card. Must be 18 or over for long guns, 21 or over for handguns. Must pass a PICS (instant-check) background check (usally takes 15 minutes, may take up to a 15-day pending period if there are complications.) Face-to-face transfers at an FFL are legal but many FFLs do not process them because there is too much paper involved. Off the top of my head, the only place in the Philly area who does do them is Johnston's Automotive and Tackle in Croydon (Buck's County.)

2) Expandable batons are technically legal but using one in a self-defense situation that is not 100% justified in the use of force can lead to a number of charges including the use of prohibited offensive weapons, aggravated assault, posession of an instrument of crime, etc. etc. Pepper spray is a much safer (from a legal standpoint) alternative.

3) There are several good ranges in and around Philly. The ones that come to mind are The Firing Line in South Philly (S. Front Street @ Dickinson Street,) South Philly Archery & Gun Club (Ellsworth St. btw S 8th & S 9th,) and the club where I shoot, Classic Pistol (Southhampton, Bucks County.) There are several others, but those are the ones where I have experience.

4)I'm always looking for shooting partners, but Southhampton's a bit of a hike from University City, and not worth the complications of SEPTA if you're not bringing your car to school.

5)Don't know of such facilities at a range. Not likely, as I'm pretty sure ATF regs require that a weapon left in the custody of an FFL (as most ranges are) log it into their inventory and their bound book, noting the name and contact info of the legal owner and the reason it was left in their custody (ie. sale, repair, consignment)

More to the point, though, I've lived in Philly my whole life and have never NEEDED a firearm. I've lived in neighborhoods far worse than Drexel's corner of U.City (East Kensington, anybody?) and never drawn my weapon. If you want a long gun, fine, but it's definitely not worth getting kicked out of the dorm or expelled for. Pepper spray, folding knife, flashlight are all, or probably more, than you will need.

On the note of roommates and storage, I kept my handguns in a storage locker with cable locks on them, and my shotgun in the closet cable-locked to a U-bolt in the walls stud when I had roommates.

[joe07735]

Thanks alot for all of the information philapdrcrt.

[9mmHP]

Actually, University City isn't all that bad now, I was pleasantly surprised when I visited it a year or two ago. I used to live in Grays Ferry in the '70's and '80's (across the Schuylkill from U City area) and its a sewer, has been for 30 years. U City used to be as bad, or worse, (especially when MOVE was in the area) but it's really gone upscale and been cleaned up. I went to college at St. Joe's, which is in the Overbrook area and was another bad part of town and had to cross West Philadelphia to get there. I carried illegally, first a Walther PP, then a Colt Mustang, in my front pants pocket! Never got stopped though it wore a outline of the gun in my jeans. There were 3 or four occasions where I desperately needed a gun, and you never know when those occasions will come along. Had to produce the Mustang on one occasion to deter a baseball bat waving thug. If you stck to U City and Center City (during daylight mostly) you lessen your chances of something bad happening. Good luck.

[joe07735]

I've heard from others that the minute you wander outside of University City you're asking for trouble; especially at night. I don't know how true this is, but I'd rather be safe than sorry and I don't intend to alter my schedule and social life to skirt around the nastier inhabitants of the city. I'd rather just go about my business and be ready in case something does happen.

[bcrash15]

While I don't know this would work so well for a shotgun, I have learned that a filing cabinet makes a pretty good gun safe. They are big enough that no one is going to be able to move it without significant effort, time, and noise. Breaking into one typically requires even more noise, more that most people would be willing to make in an apartment or conjoined housing unit. There are models you can bolt to the floor and many have pretty sturdy locks. We had some locked and forgotten filing cabinets in the back of the equipment room at the school 's project garage and it took us about an hour to get them open with a full machine shop at our disposal (minus cutting torches, they were full of paper :eek:).

As for roommates, I purchased a couple long guns while I was living with my current one and they took temporary residence there until I could transport them back to my parents house. I think I really made him nervous with them even though I never had any ammo in the apartment. I have a revolver now, and I think I am going to take it back, but I am uncertain whether I am going to tell him about it. If you are going to have one and are not willing to tell the roomies everything about it (location, use, etc...) which admittedly doesn't sound like a good idea in this case, there is really no reason for them to know about it at all.

[SatanzBountyHunter]

This is all in what you feel comfortable with, but when my daughter goes off to college next year, believe me she will have her XD-9. Like someone else told you already, you can buy one from a private party and its legal. Had my first Colt .45ACP at 18 this way.

Have you thought about screening potential roomates for ones that hunt or have similiar gun interests? They may prove to be knowledgable enough about guns that they will have the proper respect for them and they won't be an issue around the house...plus you might end up with a couple more shooters in the house and that may end up being safer. Don't know much about the part of the world you live in, but just a thought. You might meet some hunters/shooters during your first year.

You could also just have pretty girls for roomates. Besides the obvious benefits, they probably won't be interested in firearms enough to mess with them.

I hope that whatever you are studying in that environment will soon allow you to afford to live in a place without mutants roaming the neighborhood. Good luck and study hard.

[njtrigger]

So you will be in a college environment with curious roommates, friends and girlfriends. Some of these people you hardly know and who knows what psychological issues they might have. I can tell you that your stuff will be thoroughly searched at some point by one or more of the above people. Someone is going to mess with the weapon even if its well concealed.

I say to get a small digital combo safe where you can quickly enter in 3 numbers to access the pistol.

In any event, there will be no truely secure way to store the pistol or shotgun. Steel boxes can be pried into using common tools.

http://gunsafestore.com/vehiclegunsafe.htm

[WhiteFeather93]

Just my .02

Here is all of the PA Firearms laws you need to brush up on.

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6109.html

Take some time and read over this information before you get yourself in trouble. Philadelphia has some preemption over state law in some areas.

I would stay clear of batons, auto knifes, nunchucks, switchblades. OC spray is advisable but check Philly law about the amount. There are restrictions on stun guns in Philadelphia. I personally do not carry a stun gun because of their ineffectiveness. I can stand still and poke myself in the leg with a stun gun and it doesn't bother me. A tazer on the other hand is different but I do not know the statues on them yet.
I live in PA but up in farm country. I doubt you want to drive that far to seek a range.
There is some good advice here good luck!

[jrock18]

satan'sbountyhunter:

I can assure you that it would be a bad idea for your daughter to bring a gun to college, unless you're sure the college allows it. In my past 2 days of googling I haven't found any.

[mattro]

Boy that's a tuff one. I can't imagine sending one of my daughters off without being armed. But, it would really suck to get kicked out of school, with a week left before finals or something...

[JAXX]

FWIW I think that many of the colleges in Utah allow CCW as it's allowed by the state. Also, there are some pretty solid gun safes out there in the 100-200 dollar range that can be lag bolted into studs, yet easily moved by 2 guys when they are empty. While a pistol would be easier to wield in a small apartment, so would an 18" barrel Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip. And believe me, nothing scares off a bad guy quicker than hearing the action cycle on a pump action shotgun. The sound is very distinct. For home defense, I don't think there are many on this forum that would argue the effectiveness of a 12 GA shotgun. Many (myself included) believe they are the best weapon for home defense.

[SatanzBountyHunter]

I can assure you that it would be a bad idea for your daughter to bring a gun to college, unless you're sure the college allows it. In my past 2 days of googling I haven't found any.

She won't be taking it to class with her and she won't be living in a dorm room either. She will be living alone or maybe with 1 of her friends and driving a lonely Texas highway when she comes home for visits. I raised her as a single parent, she is my only child. She will have a gun to protect herself ...her safety isn't negotiable.

[mikejonestkd]

SatanBH,

I congratulate you on taking the iniative to train your daughter to safely use a firearm and to have one to protect herself. I agree with most of the posts in this thread concerning the safety of students on campus.

A college campus is still one of the safest places in America when it comes to violent crime. There are lots of petty crime and typical college age antics but, as a whole, colleges are pretty safe places.

I work on campus and cannot even leave a firearm in the trunk of my car, I am certain that unless the college she attends allows firearms on campus that they will have a similar policy to the SUNY system.

If I bring a firearm on campus I will lose my job and face charges.

If she is caught with one on campus she will be expelled and face charges.

A good lock box in her apartment is a great idea, but review campus policy before advocating that she leave it in her car on campus.

Just my 3 cents on the topic.


good luck and stay safe

[Mr. James]

well done, SBH.

Quite frankly, jrock18, I would not introduce a firearm into this setting until/unless you genuinely trust your roomies not to mess with your gear, or you secure the weapon and keep your mouth shut about it.

My own experience was not at all remarkable. I knew some of my roomates well, knew some not at all. Some I met for the first time the day we moved in. Some could be trusted, others not. All of them were partial to drinking, brawling, consorting with loose women and general riotous living. All of them at one time or another brought other friends and acquaintances in.

One turned out, to my astonishment, to be a low-level cocaine dealer. He found religion when his own supplier was found face down in a pool of his own blood. Who the hell knows what sort of "clientele" he traipsed through that house when the rest of us weren't there?

Another roomate (different house) kept a Remington 870 in his closet. Of course, he couldn't resist a little show and tell. I never messed with it and never saw anyone else mess with it. However, aside from the owner, none of us had any appreciable knowledge of, or experience with, firearms, and given our drinking and other social habits back then, it could have ended quite badly.

Just some thoughts . . .

[9mmHP]

Philadelphia doesn't have preemption over state law in regards to licensed carry though they dearly desire it. State law treats Philadelphia very slightly differently than the rest of the state as the only "city of the first class" (over 1 mil. pop.) in that open carry is not legal without a carry license. Before the early '90s Philadelphia refused to honor any carry licenses but its own, but the legislature very wisely put an end to that. Philadelphia unfortunately has had about 40 years of corrupt and incompetent, even criminal, leadership and is circling the drain as a result. I hope it can pull it together.

[Samurai]

jrock18,

It was just 4 years ago that I was in your situation, trying to deal with gun ownership around my college roommates. What's more, my roommates have all been rather peace-loving hippies, who drank and did drugs alot, but did not approve of my owning a gun at all. Suffice to say, this situation CAN be handled...

College dorms: OBEY THE RULES!!! If you're not allowed to have a gun, DON'T HAVE ONE!!! At my school, the college police department had a "check" system, where you could bring your gun to them, and they would check it. You could pick it up from them on your way off campus, and bring it back when you returned. Think, instead of your alternative weapons. Sounds like you've got the baseball bat. Think of some projectile weapons, like mace or tazers. Load up on sharp things. And, increase your warning systems: Set up an alarm on the door, cameras, etc. Plain and simple versions of these things can be purchased pretty cheaply nowadays.

Private Apartments: There are LOTS of ways to secure a gun in an apartment. Design your security around your liability: the roommates. Remember, in our particular situation, we're not trying, necessarilly, to secure the shotgun against theft (or fire, or floods, etc...). We're only trying to secure it against tampering by the roommates. All you need is a box for the shotgun that has a lock on it. The box doesn't have to be hardened ballistic steel, it doesn't have to be fireproof, and it doesn't have to require DNA samples for entry. Just a plain old box with a lock on it! That will keep the drunk college kids from accidentally finding it and messing with it.

My solution, for my handguns, was a nice, decorative wooden chest, with a pretty, yet secure, key-locking brass latch. It works fine. Kids can't get in without the keys, so it's a place to secure the guns, if needs be.

For your shotgun, I would recommend one of the cheap, black plastic gun cases (the kind with the egg-shell foam inside), and a couple of padlocks. The case should have little loops for locks, and that will work fine to keep the drunken college kids out for the night. When it's just you, unlock and open the case, so the shotgun will be handy.

Send me a PM if you want to talk more about it. Good luck!

[JAXX]

Samurai, while overall, your post is well thought out, I have to disagree with you on one thing; the gun "case". In the apartment environment with roomates, I would strongly suggest you DO secure the firearm (whatever you choose) against theft. While you may be able to say you trust each and every one of your roomates, can you say that about every single person that they may possibly bring into your home while you're not there? Chances are there will be parties taking place while you're not home, and we all know that during parties like that, nothing is off limits. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, at one time or another, unknown to you, your stuff will be searched. A plastic gun case with luggage type locks will be stolen if someone thinks there is anything inside that's worth ten bucks. Just my opinion.

[The Tourist]

"there will be times when my roommate/s and I are intoxicated."

You don't need a firearm, you need a change of lifestyle.

Until you're mature enough to be a responsible citizen, you're not old enough or smart enough to own and use potentially dangerous weapons.

Any headline that reads Drunken Student With Gun does not merit my support. The kid, and I use the proper term, deserves to have the gun taken away by an adult, and he has earned the rebuke of society.

[SatanzBountyHunter]

A college campus is still one of the safest places in America when it comes to violent crime. There are lots of petty crime and typical college age antics but, as a whole, colleges are pretty safe places.

I work on campus and cannot even leave a firearm in the trunk of my car, I am certain that unless the college she attends allows firearms on campus that they will have a similar policy to the SUNY system.

If I bring a firearm on campus I will lose my job and face charges.

If she is caught with one on campus she will be expelled and face charges.

Please educate me here since you work in that environment. I believe in following the law, obviously...but is there any real chance she will have her car searched in a college parking lot?

Here is the issue: A lot of college girls that are stalked by derelicts are followed home from the college, or from where they work. It may be at these times that they need access to a handgun.

What about a fixed blade knife? Does the college get their underwear in a bundle over that if they are left out in the car? Not trying to hijack this thread, just thinking of other options that may help the O.P. and other freshman college students as well.

[mikejonestkd]

Hope this helps:

Campus has approx 7000 students, not big by any means but not small either...


http://www.brockport.edu/publications/yrtk/safetyReport.html

Scroll down to

http://www.brockport.edu/publications/yrtk/safetyReport.html#Weapon%20Law

It shows that there were no weapons violations for the three years shown.

that leads me to believe two possible conclusions:

1. no one has a weapon on campus, or
2. anyone who has a weapon on campus is very quiet about it.

Also, the majority of crime reported is drug/ alcohol and petty crimes.

knives are treated the same as firearms, although I would take a guess that they would just be confiscated in most cases.

There is little chance that her car will ever be searched, but if she ever has to use it on campus there will be some serious repercussions afterward - but she will still be alive after using it, as opposed to the potential downside of not having it.

I still suggest that her best bet is a lock box at her apartment and have her carry it to and from your home when she visits.

IMO after 21 years in a campus environment her biggest threat is a ' friend of a friend' at a party that won't take NO for an answer and try to take advantage of her..knees and pepper spray tend to end those problems quickly...LOL

hope this helps.

Or you can just send her to Upstate NY and she can come to college here!!!!

[SatanzBountyHunter]

Thanks for the info. I'll keep it in mind.

Or you can just send her to Upstate NY and she can come to college here!!!!

Let's see.....west Texas?....New York?....west Texas?...New York?

I am sure can guess the answer to that question. Take care up there.

[grey_pilgrim]

At my campus, they have a three inch (or four) knife rule, and the RA's aren't really strict about longer stuff, as long as you don't have it sitting on the wall or go bragging about it and I'd think that most campuses would be similar. I agree with mike jones, if anything, a knife would probably be confiscated .OTOH a gun might result in expulsion (although i know a few people who hid guns in their dorm rooms). I do not and would not keep a gun in my dorm room, due to the close proximity to intoxicated people, and the threat of expulsion.
I see a fair amount of people with those knife clips on the outsides of their pockets.

[JAXX]

"there will be times when my roommate/s and I are intoxicated."

You don't need a firearm, you need a change of lifestyle.

Until you're mature enough to be a responsible citizen, you're not old enough or smart enough to own and use potentially dangerous weapons.

Any headline that reads Drunken Student With Gun does not merit my support. The kid, and I use the proper term, deserves to have the gun taken away by an adult, and he has earned the rebuke of society.

Whoa now, just because someone says they may be intoxicated at one time or another now means that they are no longer mature enough to own a weapon? Hey, I like to drink a few beers now and then, maybe even a Jack & Coke. I never mix alcohol and guns however, so does this mean that I am also too immature to own a firearm because I like to drink sometimes? This is a little excessive in my book. I'd bet that over half the people on this board like to have an occasional alcoholic beverage. It says nothing about their maturity level or abilities with a firearm. Many, too many people are so quick to jump up on their soapbox and start judging the minute someone says they drink a little. Well get down off your high horse becuase there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done in a responsible manner. The OP has said nothing to lead me to believe any immaturity of the sort. If anything he should be praised for taking the initiative to research the subject and his options by talking to those who have prior experience in the subject. He doesn't need to be belittled by folks who have nothing better to do than sit here and judge others from within the sanctity of their own home.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Here's what you need:

Concealable, collapsible, non-lethal, effective.
http://www.tbotech.com/images/telescopic-steel-batons/telescopic-steel-baton.jpg

[JoeBlackSpade]

With some practice and a little professional training, you can defeat multiple assailants, knife wielding thugs, and even someone with a handgun, at close range. At longer ranges, you better be able to run fast, and hope they miss.:D

[Lavid2002]

These safes read your fingerprint and open quickly and are better than any old key! Their a bit pricy but search em.......your friend cant crack it.....and its faster than a lock.

[Nwilliams184]

A year ago here at the University of Iowa, if you wanted to obtain a permit to acquire handguns or revolvers, you first had to pass a background check through the sheriffs office, than the University would decide whether or not if would be "safe" for that particular person to obtain the permit if they were a student. One of my good friends was denied his permit because of a couple of bad grades. Seems that a few years back a student shot his professor for failing him. My friend eventually received his permit after a few phone calls.

[jrock18]

I'm leaning more and more towards the baton. They're cheap and effective, and I'll always have the baseball bat in my dorm room, so it's nice for carry.

Thanks for the defense JAXX, if Tourist would have taken the time to read all of my posts he would have seen this clearly stated:



As far as alcohol is concerned yes I do drink, but I never get to the point of retardation. Also, I would never attempt to handle a firearm with any amount of alcohol in me, not because I believe that 1-3 beers would impair me, but because god forbid something did happen alcohol makes one look negligent.

[jrock18]

I just found out that I won't be considered a resident of PA, and therefore won't be able to get a firearms permit. Apparently living on campus doesn't indicate an intention to remain in PA. So I'm looking into establishing residence ASAP. I'm going to get my PA driver's license, ask my family if they can say that I live with them when I'm not in college(which I probably will so it won't be a lie), and make a general effort to obtain residency.

I want to get a pistol soon as well so that I'm proficient with it by the time I'm old enough for ccw.

1.) Is .45 not a good starter caliber, should I start with 9mm?

2.) Does anyone object to a Glock 21/19 as a starter pistol?

[The Tourist]

"just because someone says they may be intoxicated"

Easy to say when you don't have to face them.

Ask any cop what kind of a call bring the hackles to his neck and they'll say it's "domestic violence."

That's a benevolent phrase for "drunk with a gun."

You don't know what caused it. You don't know if they will listen. You don't know if other crimes are in the act of being committed. You don't know if hostages are being held.

Now consider the call a policeman encounters where there are twenty drunken, partying students and a loaded gun.

The original poster states up front that he will be drunk and he wants a firearm.

So I ask you, you're going to volunteer to go get the gun from him when he's all liquored up, aren't you?

[j-framer]

I must say that, when I read jrock18’s original post a couple days ago, I was struck forcefully (and not at all reassured) by his statement regarding his expectation of being periodically “intoxicated”, as he put it. At the time I didn’t think it would be worthwhile to ask him about it because I anticipated my observations being interpreted combatively, or seen as an attempt to provoke a flaming match. But given jrock18’s sustained interest in hearing others’ opinions and the fact that the alcohol issue is the topic of the last few posts, I think I’ll go ahead.

Jrock18,

You have admitted that you intend to intoxicate yourself, which is defined by Oxford as “cause to lose control of…faculties or behavior”. You have indicated that this state may be achieved in the presence of a firearm, a potentially lethal instrument. However, these two facts evidently do not cause you concern--the reason being that you claim to be in control of the degree to which your faculties will be impaired.

If you are “intoxicated” to any degree, it is undeniable that part of your judgment has gone haywire, or is not functioning at all. This being the case, how can you ensure that the first part to go south is not the part that controls your resolve to limit your drinking? Once you are not “you” anymore, how can you say for sure what is going to happen? How do you see through the haze and reconnect with the rational person who ordained exactly how much is too much? It is not enough to not be drunk to the point of “retardation”; for people who insist on being in complete control of their actions at all times (read "responsible people"), nothing less than full operating condition will suffice.

It is incomprehensible to me how any responsible gun owner could use any substance that impairs his judgment in the presence of his gun(s), no matter how slightly. Though I find it exasperating to hear people talk of the HUGE responsibility of handling and carrying firearms (you’d think they go around with drawn, gray faces from the strain—all it takes is common sense, the exercise of which shouldn’t feel like the weight of the world on your shoulders), one does have a simple, easy choice to make in situations such as yours: accountability or unaccountability. Guns and alcohol don’t mix, in however slight amounts of either.

[joe07735]

Maybe I am taking these comments the wrong way, but I have clearly stated that I would never handle a gun with even 1 beer in me. I'm not an idiot, and I wouldn't allow anyone else to handle a gun with alcohol in them.

I really think that many here are assuming an animal house environment. I will be intoxicated meaning drunk. Not strung out on crack and desperate for a fix. I'm sure many of you drink in the same house where your guns are stored and never think twice. I don't see what everyone's issue is. I have been drunk, I have been around guns, and I have been drunk around guns in the past; and never once did I consider handling a firearm after drinking.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and can say whatever they'd like, but despite my age I'm not a fool. I don't have a temper and when I drink I have a couple beers or shots or w/e and then relax with friends. Personally I am a bit surprised that everyone assumes that the minute a college kid has a couple drinks in him he'll be incredibly irresponsible.

When I get the gun it will probably be a glock 21 and I'll keep it in a safe like this:

http://gunsafestore.com/GV1000DLX.htm

or

http://gunsafestore.com/GV2000DLX.htm


So I'll be the only one who could open it, and I would never handle it with any alcohol in me. Thus any drunken mistakes that could be made, aren't.

[The Tourist]

"I would never handle a gun with even 1 beer in me"

There's a commercial that runs in my area of a guy totally smashed and all of the over-the-top things a guy might do in that condition.

The commercial ends with the question about driving and judgement and the problem of discerning when you cross a line, even by a little.

Your comments are made now, while you're sober. But your comments also relay the fact that you intend to imbibe more than enough.

Ever see a drunk when he thinks his best friend has slighted him? One minute he's kissing you and weeping about your friendship, and the next minute he's your blood enemy for gawking at his girl friend. And he has a gun.

If you cannot handle your liquor, you cannot handle your gun. Did I say that clear enough?

[oldbillthundercheif]

You puritans need to give the guy a break. Prohibition ended a long time ago.

A few brews are not going to turn him into a werewolf.

[joe07735]

I'm 250 pounds I can handle my liquor just fine. When I drink I never get to the point where I'm out of control and wild. I drink 3-5 drinks and relax, I don't binge drink and black-out. I drink responsibly, and shoot responsibly as both are innocent activities which can turn deadly when negligent.


I think you need a beer.:rolleyes:




I'm done discussing this topic as I've thoroughly stated my point and where I'm coming from, you can continue posting about it if it pleases you, but I'm out.

[JAXX]

So, Tourist and J-Framer, I suppose the two of you never touch alcohol, or any type of medicine like Nyquil, or Robitussin right? You have never had to take any type of pain killer like Vicodin right? All of these impair you as well. Give me a break.

[9mmHP]

First, what state are you a resident of? Not being a resident of Pennsylvania may work to your advantage.

Second, you're on the East Coast. Drinking is considered pretty normal and acceptable there. In the Midwest, if your lips touch alcohol, you're irresponsible. If you drink more than one, you're an alcoholic.

[Mr. James]

I'm glad jrock/joe is able to recognize the sanctimonious nonsense and dismiss it.

One poster speaks of slobbering drunks on crying jags, or of police responding to raging out of control drunks. Several imply that having one or two beers will render the OP incapable of deciding to call it a night. Some posters read "intoxicated" and immediately suggest the OP is a dypsomaniac, utterly incapable of limiting his alcohol consumption. "Intoxicated" can mean falling down drunk. But the law of the land in all 50 states also says "intoxicated" means an average adult having two beers or two glasses of wine in one hour -just see how easily one can achieve BAC of 0.08 percent. Most reasonable adults do not have their judgement impaired at that level - the arbitrary 0.08 level, forced on the states by the feds, is merely the authorities' best shot at zero tolerance in a society that emphatically rejects zero tolerance with regard to alcohol.

What world do y'all live in. Guys in college like to have a few beers. They don't all end up in de-tox.

Instead of encouraging a young man who clearly is going the extra mile to educate himself about responsible gun possession and storage in a university setting, a few Carrie Nations here want to paint him as an habitual drunkard and a disgrace to gun owners, if not a criminal.

Whatever solution jrock18 settles upon, be it a collapsible baton, a baseball bat, or that Glock 21 in a safe, he strikes me as a thoughtful, articulate and responsible young man. He has my best wishes, whatever he decides.

Bob

[The Tourist]

"So, Tourist...I suppose the two of you never touch alcohol"

I'm a Seventh Day Adventist.

However, as I have said, the life I live now is not the life I lived as a younger man. We are discussing the life of a college student.

I do know this. Most guys I know who are serious hunters have a policy where they drink at the end of the day. They do not drink while hunting because the firearms are loaded.

So, if a trained and veteran hunter watches his drinking, then certainly an inexperienced student needs to check his conduct. And a guy who professes he will be drunk is not mature enough for gun ownership.

[VUPDblue]

So, Tourist, I have a few drinks from time to time. Maybe even one too many from time to time. I like to have my friends over and have a good time, especially around New Years and the local races. I have guns in my house. They live in the safe. Are you saying that if I drink even one too many and reside in the same house with a safe full of guns that I am not responsible enough for gun ownership? If you are, then you are sorely mistaken and very overbroad in your assumptions.

Just to be clear, here is what the OP said
Also, it's safe to assume that there will be times when my roommate/s and I are intoxicated.
Intoxicated is not necessarily falling-down slurred-speach drunk. Also, he is not going to be "hunting" with his weapon. Yes responsible hunters drink at the end of the day, but jeez, there is no "end of the day" when it comes to keeping a weapon for protection. He is concerned with keeping the weapon out of the hands of someone who may have his/her decision making capabilities impaired. Remember, we are not talking about your life as a younger man, we are talking about someone else who has come here seeking honest advise and told us every detail of his situation. Maybe you have some deamons, don't project them onto the OP.

[The Tourist]

"Remember, we are not talking about your life as a younger man"

Fair enough.

Most dorms do not allow firearms. In this case, it sounds like an apartment.

And if it is a college students' apartment, we have a problem with security.

Notice I typed students' and not student's. There will be people in and out of that unit. He stated that alcohol was going to be used.

Let's say that he is a "responsible drunk." Early in the evening he locks up the gun cabinet, along with his car keys. For the individual, he might feel he has taken responsibility.

But you cannot control the traffic of a party where numerous people are drinking to access.

Look, I don't want to deny the guy his rights under The Second Amendment. And I enjoyed the heck out of being young. But just like the condition of automobiles, decisions on behavior should be made while you are sober.

Liquor and firearms don't mix. Do you handle firearms after drinking?

[VUPDblue]

Liquor and firearms don't mix. Do you handle firearms after drinking?
Correct, and No.

Security is a problem, that's why I suggested the small safe bolted to the floor by the bed and disguised. I implemented this exact same method in this exact same situation in college. It worked for me.

[JAXX]

But you cannot control the traffic of a party where numerous people are drinking to access.


OK, now this is bordering rediculous. The OP has made it evident that he is willing to go the extra mile to act responsibly with his ownership of a weapon and his occasional drinking. For some reason, that still isn't good enough for you though, is it? So, it's safe to say that you feel the whole world shouldn't drink at all right? I'm a hunter, a pretty serious hunter as a matter of fact. Yes, while hunting, we pay special attention to our alcohol consumption. We make sure that when the first beer opens, the guns have been put away for the day. We don't make sure to unload them all and lock them away and rule over each other with an iron fist. We're adults, and we treat each other with respect, obviously something you are incapable of doing. As previously stated, we are not talking about your life as a young man, so it is unfair to compare your life to his in any manner. Your level and his level of intoxication could be quite different. Apparently your level of intoxication is the point where people stop acting like human beings and start looking for weapons to shoot each other with. Well, I can tell you that in all my years of alcohol cosumption I have never reached for a weapon after I have been drinking. Maybe there is something you are not telling us? As for your statement that I quoted, at what point do you make people responsible for their own actions? It seems like you are one of those types of people that feel it is your responsiblity to protect us from ourselves.

[The Tourist]

"It seems like you are one of those types of people that feel it is your responsiblity to protect us from ourselves."

I cannot speak for everyone here, but I want as much freedom as I can get.

But this is my position. I don't know if you're familiar with a comedian by the name of Christopher Titus, but he does a bit on how mothers differ from fathers when raising children on "real life experiences." He depicts a father watching his toddler son approaching an electrical outlet with a metal object. Standing as if holding a beer, he mimicks his father by saying to an imaginary friend, "Okay, watch this..."

It's a funny bit, and my Dad used that kind of logic in teaching me about stoves and exhaust pipes.

I'm not sure that this "hands on" knowledge applies to liquor and fire arms.

How many times have you heard a friend approach his car and say, "No, I'm okay, I just had a few beers..."

The problem with most consumption is that it does not always hit you like a light switch. It progresses. You might stop for work and catch a beer to relax. After a few beers, you're mood shifts and you're happy again. Then you joke around, but might not slur your speech or fall down.

The problem here is that you're already too drunk to drive or shoot--but you don't it.

And so you place me in a situation where I might have to watch a younger person mishandle liquor and firearms, and then say to my friends, "Okay, watch this..."

Sober people have 'accidental discharges.' As you know from my posts, a police chief baked his Glock.

I also prefaced my last comment as not wanting to take away his Second Amendment rights, and I'll stand on it. However, we are careful in our own homes around children, and I'm just advising the same caution around alcohol.

[VUPDblue]

Jaxx, that line you quoted is not rediculous at all. It is fact. When several guys live in a common house or apartment, it is nearly impossible to control the traffic pattern of visitors, especially when there is a celebration going on. Drunk people can, and do, tend to wander and if they stumble upon an unsecured weapon, then bad things happen. Our large house in college played host to uncountable celebrations, and many-a-time were there people who's alcohol consumption surpassed recommended levels:rolleyes:. My point is that at no time did I feel uneasy about the storage of my, or my roommate's firearm. Our rooms were locked, and the only keys to them were on our keyrings. On top of that, our guns were in small safe's bolted to the floor. My empty laundry basket lived on top of my safe to keep it out of view. I don't think Tourist is advocating the need to protect us from ourselves, rather he is just underscoring the idea that alcohol and guns don't mix, especially in a college setting.

[9mmHP]

If you are a resident of a state that freely issues permits, it might be easier to get a PA license than if you had to jump through all of the Phila. PD hoops. When I moved to Indiana to go to IU in Bloomington, Indiana for grad school, Philadelphia was still excluded from the shall issue provision but PA licenses were good in Philadelphia. I got an Indiana license with no problem. I then went to the Chester Co., PA Sheriff and paid the fee and got the PA license in the mail two weeks later. Recently, when it was time to renew, I mailed an app to Centre Co., PA Sheriff along with the fee and got my PA license two weeks later again. All I needed was my Indiana resident license. If you're, for example, a VA resident, a VA license is good in PA. If you're from NJ or MD or NY, forget what I just wrote and go ahead and establish PA residency.

[JAXX]

VUPDblue, the point that I was trying to make was that if he has friends over who happen to drink while they are at his home, he should not be held accountable for their actions on or off of his property. No one held a gun to their head and made them drink and possibly act like a fool. So, as long as he has his weapons locked up in a secure fashion, and he alone knows the wherabouts of the key/combination, it won't matter who is in his home and/or their intoxication levels.

[jrock18]

9mmHP:

Sadly I live in NJ so it would be easier for me to get the gun and license in PA.

I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore on this topic but, I appreciate the info regarding alcohol, I was unaware of that fact and it does help me understand a bit better where the OP is coming from. Come to think of it I have cousins in Iowa and the one time I mentioned drinking to them they thought I was some kind of bad ass.


---

To be honest I am scared ****less of what would happen if someone found a gun in my dorm room, so that won't be happening. Once I get an apartment I'm all for owning a gun, but until then I'm going to play it safe with a kershaw auto folder and a nice baton. Can anyone who owns a baton tell me if I should get one of the automatic ones or are they easy to open?


and I'm still waiting for a reply on the .45 vs. 9mm for a starter caliber question.:p

Thanks for all the info and help that's been given. Even you tourist for playing the devil's advocate.

[VUPDblue]

I'm done discussing this topic as I've thoroughly stated my point and where I'm coming from, you can continue posting about it if it pleases you, but I'm out.

I know I said I wouldn't comment anymore on this topic

So are you also joe07735:confused:

[jrock18]

No, but thats my post. Maybe there was a log in error?


Edit: I just changed my Password to be safe, but I think the server logged me in as someone else due to an error.

[j-framer]

Hopefully that is the last we'll hear about the alcohol issue. Let's just drop it, everybody. It turned into exactly the kind of useless soap-boxing I had anticipated, and I am as guilty as any of helping to point the thread in a non-productive direction.

I want to get a pistol soon as well so that I'm proficient with it by the time I'm old enough for ccw.

1.) Is .45 not a good starter caliber, should I start with 9mm?

2.) Does anyone object to a Glock 21/19 as a starter pistol?

Regarding the 9mm vs. .45 question:

The 9x19 caliber is one of the very least expensive to shoot, if this is a consideration for you. As I'm sure you know, in most handguns of equal size and weight the .45 will recoil a bit more than the 9mm, but not so much that it should be the primary factor in making the decision between the two, particularly when chambered in mid- to full-size guns.

Ideally, you should find a way to fire a couple models in both calibers before making the final choice (have you? I'm not sure I read every one of your posts after the original one). But with a superb gun like the Glock, I think you could buy one outright with almost no chance of being disappointed. They are fantastic firearms, and soft shooters compared against many other manufacturers' models in the same calibers.

Were the choice mine, I would pick the G19 over the G21. It is one of the best all-purpose (though not for hunting, of course ;)) semi-autos made. It should be a great learning gun; if my G23 (.40 caliber version of the G19) is a sweetheart to shoot, the somewhat less powerfully chambered G19 should be that much more pleasant.

[Capt Charlie]

I think the server logged me in as someone else due to an error.
Not so. You are indeed using multiple identities, and your alter ego has been around TFL long enough to know better (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_catecory#faq_forum_rules).

You have mail.

Closed.