Throw Down Wallet (a question for Mas Ayoob)

[pesta2]

On another thread I was reading about, what else you carry beside you gun, someone had a “throw down wallet” and a real wallet.

I am assuming it is a fake wallet that you throw on the ground and not your real wallet. I can see this being a good thing that the criminal will not get your money, credit cards, or personal information.

Here is the point that really makes me question this practice. It seems an oxymoron to me. If you are carrying a gun along with your fake wallet and someone pulls a gun to rob you, your going to protect you life, pull yours and shot if you have a thrown down wallet or not. So then what is the “throw down wallet” for? You throw a fake wallet down to distract the person to give you a chance to draw and fire, then you shoot right? That seems like it would portray you in very bad light in a court of law.

While taking my CCW class the instructor said (and he is in the law enforcement community) that if you shoot even to protect your own life, you will find yourself in court. At the most defending yourself after that family of the criminal sues you. Do not deny we live in a sue everyone society now. I heard on the radio today a woman is suing now because of that steam pipe burst in New York. She was not injured, she was in a building close by, she has PTSD and was traumatized by it since she lost her sister in 9-11.

Seems to me the bare minimum you could carry would be the best option. Not the type of person that carries their main gun with two spare magazines and a back up gun along with 2 knives, and what ever else they carry. Court could portray you as someone looking for a fight carrying that much ammunition and guns.

Wouldn’t be better carrying a pocket knife, a revolver, wallet and a cell phone?

So what do you think? I would like to hear what Mas Ayoob has to say, I know he is out there somewhere.:)

[Michael Anthony]

The best defense against an armed robber is remaining calm and giving up your wallet the second he asks you to. Most will just take it and go, though it would seem the number of "senseless" murders is increasing.

The dummy wallet isn't a distraction you carry around so you can blow a street-thug away. It's what you give him instead of your real wallet, hoping he will take it and go.

Now if you believe the criminal will not stop at the wallet, then it may serve as a distraction if you are feeling froggy.

[leadcounsel]

Seems that a dummy wallet could backfire if the thug checks it. It could really aggravate an armed robber, which is not what you want.

I'm of the crowd to cooperate until the thug leaves but as soon as either 1) you have a chance to fight back with reasonable certainty of success or 2) there is some certainty that the thug is going to become violent, I'll immediately fight back.

It's not a bad idea and it's just another tool one could use in a certain situation. If, for instance, the thug is collecting wallets in a bag (like at a bank robbery) then just toss you fake one in.

I did use one when I lived in a big city and filled it with a few $1 bills and fake credit cards so it looked legit.

[Republicrat]

A lot of resources recommend a "throwdown wallet" when traveling in foreign countries.

They suggest putting some 1 and 5 dollar bills in it sticking out a bit even and perhaps one of those fake credit cards you get in those mail solicitations so it looks legit.

Not a bad way to spend $20 to save your life and identity...

[natjohnb]

a "throw down" wallet sounds like a bad idea....however what I do is carry my cash (I don't usually carry much cash $10-$40 at the most) in my weak side front pocket. If I were to be robbed I would throw the wad of cash off to the left (weakside) this draws the BG's attention, eyes, and most importantly weapon off line with me. This gives me an opportunity to step to the right (further offline with BG), and I can have a chance to either get away quickly or draw my CCW.

My wallet stays in my back pocket, weakside, with no cash.

If the mugger just leaves with the cash, fine, a couple dollars can easily be replaced.

[Groundhog]

I've thought about doing it and think the idea is reasonable but I don't just because I hate carrying any more than I have to. Kind of odd seeing as how I CCW a full sized service pistol IWB.:rolleyes:

[ATW525]

I don't carry a throw down wallet, but I don't really carry much of anything in my wallet. I use plastic almost always, and keep it outside my wallet. My cards look like hell, but they work and they don't come out when I pull my wallet out. I'm not sure I'd ever use it as a diversion, though.

As for resisting, I feel it's my duty to resist if at all possible. If I'm compliant and just give bad guys what they want without a fight, it just perpetuates criminal behavior. I may survive but the next guy the criminal targets might not be so lucky. As long as criminals believe that they're likely to get money by robbing people, they'll continue to do so. However if they believe they're likely to get lead instead of cash, they're likely to reconsider whether $20 is worth the risk.

[drinks]

ATW;
Yes, all give it to em and then curl up into a ball types are really not understanding the facts of life and may well be Feinschweiners!
Give a baddy an inch and you have the present situation of namby pamby apologists for "The Disadvantaged" letting the trash take over.
Anyone wants my billfold shall get it, on the ground, and when they bend over for it, at least 2 in the back!:barf:

[natjohnb]

:rolleyes:

[Deaf Smith]

A throw down wallet will work. If the thug decides to check it out, thats ok... he will be distracted. Just make sure you don't have any info that gives him a lead as to who you are or where you live(or you might get a visit!)

The throw down wallet also has the advantage of allowing you to keep your CHL/CCW hidden (or badge if you are a cop.)

I use my old wallet (half dead) as the throw down one. Just some business cards from places I have never really been (and from a town other than the one I live in), a few bucks, and some junk that looks like ID but isn't.

I carry the thing only when I go on trips out of town/state. I'm pretty sure of my surrounding where live, but going on vacation is another matter.

It's my Bourne identity.

[Blue Duck]

Ayoob also used to advocate a matchbook with a 5 or 10 dollar bill papercliped to it, to throw if challenged by a gang, or bad guy, etc. His thoughs on this is that it was worth 5 or 10 not to have to kill some SOB and deal with the aftermath. It's not right, but makes sense, because it will cost you a lot more in lawyer fees, etc. more then likely, even if you are absolutely right to shoot some jerk.

From his standpoint, it might be a pretty good idea, but of course goes against the grain for many of us. I am glad I don't live in an area where I need to consider this on a daily basis.

[Manedwolf]

A throw down wallet will work. If the thug decides to check it out, thats ok... he will be distracted. Just make sure you don't have any info that gives him a lead as to who you are or where you live(or you might get a visit!)

I've seen some attitude gang sorts that I do NOT think that would work for.

I think some might see it as being dismissive or "disrespectful", especially if they have an attitude/rage problem and/or are on drugs.


(edit note from original author: Reason I had that in there was to illustrate that street-culture thugs aren't going to behave like easily duped movie bad guys...they're vicious, disgustingly profane and out of control, and they're likely to react to confusion with instant violence before anything else, even thought. I do understand the reason, though.)

[Big Calhoun]

It all depends on the criminal. Some might take the throw-down and go, others may check it first and then 'run your pockets' (go through your pockets). As noted earlier, it seems like senseless crimes are increasing, so you'd also run the risk making a BG jumpy and him shooting you, whether you use a throw-down or toss your real wallet.

IMO, do whatever works for you and you're most comfortable with, just make sure you have a full course of action that you're ready to followthrough on. A back-up plan for the back-up plan, if you will.

[Musketeer]

Ayoob also used to advocate a matchbook with a 5 or 10 dollar bill papercliped to it, to throw if challenged by a gang, or bad guy, etc. His thoughs on this is that it was worth 5 or 10 not to have to kill some SOB and deal with the aftermath. It's not right, but makes sense, because it will cost you a lot more in lawyer fees, etc. more then likely, even if you are absolutely right to shoot some jerk.


Bingo. This is also information that was put forward in "In The Gravest Extreme" and earlier than that published in some of that mags of the day. The advice is 25+ years old but still has its uses. If it appears it is a simple shakedown for cash then simply thowing the wallet with a five or so in it may be all that is needed. The criminal wants money, you throw your wallet. He gets what he wants and you run for it.

Ayoob's advice is to get you out of a situation without having to resort to the gun. Given this is circa 1980 inof you need to understand he saw otherwise law abiding citizens carrying in less than 100% legal situations (look deeply into his wrinings of the day and you will see this come up from time to time) and no laws allowing you to stand your ground. Even today though you are probably going to spend less loosing $5 - $10 dollars on a toss away than on a defense for a justifiable shooting.

[DesertDawg]

It has to be a "judgement call", whether you throw a wallet or hand it to the bad guy. If you choose to throw it, you had better be ready to use the momentary distraction for whatever advantage it might give you.

I'm probably the opposite of you folks that carry two wallets. My "throw-down" wallet has all of the $20 bills in it, and the wallet I intend to keep has all of the $1, $5 and $10 bills in it. My "keeper" wallet also has all of my ID and credit/charge cards. If I have to hand the "throw-down" wallet to the bad guy, he'll get somewhere between $200 and $300 in cash....which might satisfy him. I don't want him to get my "identity", but I can replace the cash!

If you CCW and feel "lucky", there are other distractions that you might be able to use, instead of throwing your wallet and ******* off the bad guy. When was the last time that someone told you that your shoelace was untied, and you DIDN'T look down at your shoe? That MIGHT give you enough time to draw and shoot. How about yelling, "Hey, watch out!"? Bad guys aren't exactly rocket scientists, and maybe your exclamation will make them think that the sky is falling! Or, perhaps, "Hey, you can have the money, but will you give me the wallet back?"? If the bad guy starts to fish the money out, then.....!

On top of all of that, when you're in court and testifying, you can HONESTLY say that you carry two wallets...one for the BIG bills ($20's, $50's, $100's) and the other for the small bills, so that you lessen the chance of "flashing" the larger amount of cash when you make a small purchase. It's not a "fake" or "throw-down" wallet....it's a BIG money wallet!

[209]

I'll have to dig back through my class handouts, but I seem to recall that an instructor mentioned the throwing the wallet trick was a bad thing. It seems in the "urban" culture, throwing your wallet on the ground may be interpreted as "dissing" the robber. Since people have been shot for just looking at someone who embraces the "urban" culture, throwing a wallet down may result in the same end. Don't be dissin'!

Food for thought.

[joab]

That seems like it would portray you in very bad light in a court of law.It is actually recommended by just about every expert hired by the various PDs to teach us how to be safe

The technique is not to toss the wallet and wait for his approval or for your chance to draw, but to throw the wallet in one direction as you run screaming int he other
Theory being that the criminal wants the money not the drama

My wife carries a dummy purse with all her important stuff in a neck wallet under her jacket
She was mugged recently and the criminal got only $5, a tube of chapstick,a key chain charm, one tampon and her pepper spray:rolleyes: (she still fought him for it:( )
When I go to Vietnam I carry a fanny pack in my hand and my money roll in my front pocket and a copy of my passport in my front cargo pocket

If anyone snatches my fanny pack they get two rocks and a pack of Marlboros, if necessary it would also make a decent weapon

[Ernest T Bass]

When was the last time that someone told you that your shoelace was untied, and you DIDN'T look down at your shoe? That MIGHT give you enough time to draw and shoot.

Yeah right, I think I saw Bugs Bunny pull that on Elmer Fudd one time. Come on, you don’t seriously think that’s gonna work, do you? If someone was mugging you, why in the world would you care to warn them about their shoes being untied? And what happens when he glances down and they’re not untied? He gives you an extra hard pounding for pulling such a childish stunt, that’s what happens.

I agree with the original post – it wouldn’t look good in a court of law if you shot somebody for picking up a fake wallet.

What happens if you throw the wallet and the BG asks you to pick it up? There’s too many things that could go wrong here. It makes more sense to just hand them the fake wallet and be on your way.

[Musketeer]

When was the last time that someone told you that your shoelace was untied, and you DIDN'T look down at your shoe? That MIGHT give you enough time to draw and shoot.

It worked in Army of Darkness for Bruce Campbell and the guy didn't even have shoelaces!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1185059571863096124&q=army+of+darkness&total=611&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

If it works in the movies it must be real!

[Manedwolf]

My way of thinking as to a twitchy mugger or gang punk goes as following, because it's a low-yield, high-risk activity.

You throw down wallet:

1. They're confused, wasn't what they expected. They feel like they're losing control of the sitation. Scramble to regain control means using violence...they squeeze the trigger.

2. They think it's disrespecting them. They flail to feel superior again, and that means making you afraid, or shooting you. Or both.

There's also a disturbing number of criminals who don't even do it for the cash. They're criminally insane and they do it because they enjoy seeing the fear on their victims' faces. It gives them a rush.

And for some, killing the victim is even more of a rush.

[Musketeer]

Beleive it or not the vast majority of criminals out there are petty ones and do not want to kill you. They want cash.

There are plenty of ways to throw a wallet from meek and mild to offensive and disrespectful, use your head.

Drawing when you could get out without doing so or when a gun is pointed at you is almost always STUPID.

[JunyTuck]

Wow, where do you guys live? This whole thread seems a bit paranoid to me! Fake throw down wallets and all. In my 61 years, Iv'e never been confronted by a criminal. Sure there are places near where I live that have high incidents of crime. I tend to avoid those area's. Appears like avoidance is the best strategy!

[Double Naught Spy]

You probably think it is paranoid to carry a gun a well, given that you have never been confronted.

Why is active preparation, especially the type that is strategic or non-violent, considered paranoid?

[bill larry]

A true story:

Back sometime in the 1970's, my dads best friend was robbed at gun point. He was illegally carrying a revolver on him at the time (Texas).

He withdrew his wallet, and threw it at the robbers feet. When the robber bent down to retrieve it, my dads friend shot him directly in the top of the head, killing him.

He spent quite some time in jail while the local DA hemmed and hawed about wether to charge him with murder. He was finally released and no charges were filed against him.

Is it worth it to you to sit in the can for a long time over your wallet?

[JoeBlackSpade]

Bill, that's bum luck there, man.

I can't quite understand the motive behind the head shot- and nowadays, in almost any jurisdiction, I think someone taking that route is gonna be in the clink alot longer than your dad's friend actually was. The coroner's gonna see a point-blank shot to the back, or top of the head, powder burns on the head and hair, and as Ricky Ricardo might say "there's gonna be some 'splaining to do!"

What a sad commentary on some segments of society that a guy is going to risk his life for $50 bucks (or less) in someone's wallet. How many lawns would he have to mow to earn that?

As bad as I feel for that poor sap who got smoked, who's to say that (had he lived) he might not have continued on the path of crime to include murder or rape? Who's to say he wasn't already killing people for the $50 bucks in their wallets? In Florida, just 45 minutes from where I live, if you get mugged, there's a helluva good chance that you're going to get shot too. Sometimes its like the Wild West out there, and the only thing one can do is to be vigilant, stay mentally alert, avoid compromising positions, and (for those times when all else fails) practice!

[Hemicuda]

I just carry my gun directly ABOVE my wallet... skip the wallet, and draw the gun and SHOOT TO STOP, MULTIPLE TIMES, WITHOUT ANY WARNING TO THJE BG... BG stopped, YOU not robbed, and shoot ruled as "justified"...

problem solved...

[03Shadowbob]

I don't carry a throw down wallet. I don't often find myself in condition white either. I am constantly surveying where I am and the people around me. I have no problem staring at people for a few seconds to size them up. This is not something I taught myself to do, this is just something I have always done I guess. I have never been approached by any miscreants and I have spent plenty of time in some not so great areas.
As for the wallet, am I the only one who carries his/her weapon near where the wallet would be?

[FirstFreedom]

Lookit, couple points:

1. If you have/use a "throwdown wallet" for a mugging scenario, then it would not be a very smart idea to *ACTUALLY* throw it down on the ground; that could really hack off your thug, and cause him to shoot you. You're much better off either (a) just handing over the throwdown wallet; then his mind is put at ease, thinking you are cooperating. He'll either turn and go, or look in it for money. If he looks in it for money, this should be just enough distraction for you to draw. If he leaves, so much the better - you're safe and you're only out a wallet, not several months of your life and thousands in attorney's fees potentially for having to shoot someone. Or, (b) tossing the wallet up in the air towards his face, so that he must flinch/deflect/catch - this ought to definitely give you enough time to draw. But simply throwing it down seems like a bad idea.

2. The techniques mentioned above, if aimed to allow you to distract him enough to draw and shoot yourself, can just as easily be done with your ACTUAL wallet, and no need for a throwdown. Unless you want to guard against the scenario where the attacker leaves without violence, being satisfied with your mere handing him of the wallet, by putting a couple/few dollars into the throwdown, and keeping your credit cards, IDs, & more cash in the real wallet.

3. As far as just drawing your gun instead of pulling out the wallet to begin with, this may or may not work, depending on the experience/sophistication of the crook, and more importantly, your gun's location. If you carry at the 3 or 4 oclock strong side belt position, then it'd be pretty easy, because it will look like you're going for your wallet in your rear pants pocket. If, OTOH, you have your gun carried in a SmartCarry holster, as I do right now, then reaching into the front of your pants is NOT going to look like you're complying and getting the wallet - you might just set him off and get shot. So in the case of smartcarry, if someone got the drop on me, I would first grab my wallet and hand it over, then look for an opportunity to draw. Most likely, I would try the "toss-the-wallet-towards-his-face" routine. While he's dodging/deflecting, I step quickly to one side and back while drawing.

4. If the thug takes complete control, and gets your wallet out himself, while you have to hold your hands up, then you're pretty much screwed over, unless you're fast & trained in jujitsu or similar techniques to quickly grab or deflect his gun and then grapple hand to hand.

[joab]

Actually most self defense safety type expert say to throw the wallet in one direction and run in the other

The purpose of the exercise is not to get a shot off but to get away

If you feel the need to shoot you could always run a safe distance and tail him home

More and more these discussions seem to be directed more towards how can I justify shooting someone than how can I safely get out of a situation without putting myself at the mercy of the bad guy

Standing your ground is the best way to assure a bad outcome, run screaming like a girl and feel bad about it in the morning

[aquanomics]

Recently here in Las Vegas, a clerk was robbed at gun point. He complied completely and handed over the cash. Just before leaving, one BG put a .22 round fired from a sawed off rigle, in to his head. I believe he survived, but I don't know his condition.

Just a few months ago a mom and her teen age doughter were walking home from a grocery story in a nice neighborhood here. Two thugs robbed them and shot one or both in the belly. They survived as well.

Point is, these are two of far too many examples of why we carry and why lethal force can and should be used if some dope is pointing a pistol at you.

[RockyMtnTactical]

I've been robbed at gunpoint. I could have used a throw down wallet and a firearm...

I had no firearm, and I threw down my real wallet... :mad:

But we survived by the grace of God...

[Double Naught Spy]

Is it worth it to you to sit in the can for a long time over your wallet?

To all others less qualified (98% of us) forget about trying to be a convincing actor with a fake wallet to buy time while you try to decide if your life is really in grave danger, or if you're about to plunge yourself into a nightmarish lawsuit over someone stealing and maxing out your visa. Grow up. Real wallet, Real Robber, Real gun, REAL consequences. Anything else is a distraction, and possible civil liability.

Apparently you two don't understand that once a criminal is threatening your life in the classic mugging gunpoint negotiations of "Your wallet or your life," it is not about your wallet. It is about your life.

Triggerman9, you cite Ayoob, but did you actually pay attention to what he has written? While he does stress not doing things that could potentially land you in court battles later that some folks interpret as being primary self defense doctrine, he also stresses survival, which is what should be primary self defense doctrine.

The criminal ain't threatening your wallet. The criminal is threatening your life.

[Tanzer]

This thread could go places instead of being an "opinion heap" if a few LEO's/criminoligists could answer a few questions:
Are the victim's chances of being robbed but unscathed better if the thug is
1. Wearing ,say, a ski mask or other identity hiding device?
2. A 110 lb crackly-voice punk with a knife (probably looking for crack money) shaking in his hand vs a brute swinging a lead pipe?
3. Perp says he has a gun but does the old finger in the jacket pocket routine?
4. Park where there's room to run vs alley (where you shouldn't be anyways) or god forbid, elevator?
5. More than one perp?
6. You wonder if he'll see your gun when you reach for said wallet?
7. Any other potential mishaps?

Just trying to broaden the scope here. We're going to our corners again, and that stagnates a thread. I'm interested in learning, but I'm starting to hear the same old armchair stuff (no offense, it's natural, I do it too).

[Tanzer]

Violent crime in our state's capital has decreased 20%! WOW! how did our new mayor do it? By re-defining violent crime! Now, if you're mugged but not stabbed or shot, it's no longer violent. I guess it's just an "agreement" to transfer funds.

[Musketeer]

Violent crime in our state's capital has decreased 20%! WOW! how did our new mayor do it? By re-defining violent crime! Now, if you're mugged but not stabbed or shot, it's no longer violent. I guess it's just an "agreement" to transfer funds.


That has long been the standard for NYC. If violent crime is too high in a precinct then the crimes are reported differently to reomve the "violent" aspect.

[nass]

There's a Seecamp in my "wallet"... A weapon pointed at me is a threat to my life, no matter how you look at it.

[tepin]

i think the idea is to throw your wallet left and you run right. i wouldnt stick around for him to discover the words F***-*** written on a photo copy of a $1 dollar bill in your fake wallet. :D

[Tanzer]

i think the idea is to throw your wallet left and you run right. i wouldnt stick around for him to discover the words F***-*** written on a photo copy of a $1 dollar bill in your fake wallet.

That may be a good option for you. Twenty years ago it might have worked for me too, but that was "one bad knee and some arthritis in the back" ago. I attended a training last year where we were to run from one cover to another. I gave my best sprint and about five steps in, fell forward onto the grass (luckily). Yeah, I got up and ran again, but it showed me that I probably can't outrun most BG's. Hey, at least my gun didn't get dirty.

[tepin]

Agree. I don’t run so fast either. Between a bad back, asthma and sciatica, a fast retreat or prolonged scuffle would put me under. However, if someone already has a gun on you, pitching a wallet in one direction and hobbling in the other may be your best bet. I think I read in one of Ayoob’s books to keep a live $10 or $20 in the wallet too. If I recall, his point was that the $10 or $20 would be better than $20K to the attorney after shooting someone. Either way it is a crap-shoot.

[JunyTuck]

Generally, you can judge a book by it's cover! Some call it profiling.But if it quacks, waddles, and has feathers, it might just be a............................

[seeker_two]

I've thought about getting one of those little "skeletonized" folding knives from CRK&T or Gerber to use as a money clip for this very situation. Keep a $10 or $20 clipped to it. If robbed, I throw it toward the robber to catch...then shoot/stab/slice/beat him down....

If the cops asked, "Why did you kill him?", I'd reply, "He had a knife. I was in fear for my life....."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Why aren't the BG's fingerprints on the knife and yours are? What if your shots don't kill him and he points out that the knife isn't his?

Geez.

[Double Naught Spy]

Glenn that was a pleasant response. You didn't say anything nasty about providing false information to the cops being illegal, how stupid it is when in a justified self defense situation to lie to the cops, or note that is it really stupid to be answering the questions of the cops after such an activity without a lawyer present as such commentary, especially that which involves lying to the cops, can get a person in lots of trouble.

You sir, are a kind man.

[Capt Charlie]

You sir, are a kind man.
That's because he (and I ;)) knew someone would come along and call him on it.

[seeker_two]

Geez.

I know, I know....someone was going to eventually bring up the "throwdown gun/knife" thing...I just wanted to get it out of the way so we could continue this interesting and necessary discussion.... ;)

I agree with DNS...good answer...from both of you... :D

[MacGille]

Why all the conversation? Kill the MF and move on. When a person threatens another with a deadly weapon he is ready and able to kill. All rules are gone at this point. Shoot him and call a lawyer. Shut up and let the attorney speak for you. If you are not ready to do this then stop carrying and let the a--h----- rule your life.:mad: