Martial Arts guru vs. a handgunner stories?

[William Jesse Magnum]

Ive asked this a gazillion times already in my head before but never had the chance to let it escape until now.. ive known too many martial arts trainer, experts, students, etc. who are not so into guns or even anti-firearms.

With all due respect to martial-artists (of any sort), Just wondering what will happen if a martial artist together with a shooter comes into a serious incident.. or even comes in a confrontation with each other...

do you have any real life stories to tell? or are these just what we see in the movies?

[Dwight55]

Tucson, Arizona: 1967, . . . 5' 5" red headed, short tempered, Air Force martial arts instructor VS local "bad dude".

They had had a few run ins in the past and of course, . . . the AF guy won all of them. The next to the last run in, the bar owner saw it coming and ran em outside, . . . Red held the door for the other guy and while was taking his jacket off, . . . local bad dude pulled out a .38 snubby. He fired 6 rounds at probably 8 feet or less, . . . 1 missed, . . . the rest were superficial except the one that went just past his belley button, . . . missed his spine also by just enough.

Red spent a little while in the hospital, . . . and when he got well, . . . they had their last physical confrontation, . . . and though I didn't see it, . . . I heard that the bad dude did not make out real well. Fact is, . . . I heard he spent a real long time in the hospital, . . . then had to face the legal music for his shooting spree.

Anyway, . . . you asked, . . . may God bless,
Dwight

[smenkhare]

suppose it depends on what sort of martial arts, some would help you against a gun, while some are taylored to threats like that.

[eltorrente]

When I lived in Houston and my Dad was going through his final year in medical school (and putting in time at the hospital), he told me about an armed robbery incident.

Apparantly a guy was holding a pistol on the clerk of a 7-11, when a black belt in Tae Kwon Doe (sp?) was in the store. The black belt walked up to the counter and the gunman turned and pointed it at him to warn him back. The black belt, as he had done countless times in the dojo, used his lightening reflexes and skill to disarm the badguy. Well, I should say he TRIED to disarm him, because as he went for the gun the badguy shot him in the head and he died a couple hours later.

Another time a Karate instructer and one of his students went to a local bar together. They got into an argument with a couple of the rednecks, and ended up in a fight. The rednecks beat the crap out of both of them, breaking ribs, noses, and many stitches. My Dad was going to give the instructer a shot for the pain for when he stitched him up, but the guy said, "No need for that, pain is just a state of mind.." :D. So my Dad was like, yeah o.k. buddy- and started stitching him up. After the second stich and much discomfort, the instructer said, "O.k., o.k., give me the shot!!".

[Phelptwan]

My Karate instructor (back in high school) tried to grab a gun from the guy that had it pointed at him. Said guy pulled the trigger, shot him in the leg and did a number on the hand that was grabbing the gun.

[Deaf Smith]

I've trained under four grand masters. Three Korean, one Iranian. Maybe, just maybe one of the GMs didn't own a gun. But I know for a fact three did own and shoot guns. Why? Well one of them, Chu, was a Korean AF officer before he came to American and while he was not in the Korean War as a soldier, he did experienced it as a kid. The other Korean was in Nam as a ROK. The Iranian was in the Sha's SF before he came to America.

So that may color their experiences (in short they experienced war and knew a hell of a lot more than theory.)

I've seen some brochures from Wado Ki Kia saying you don't need guns or knives cause Wado Ki will do it all. The other guys in the schools I know kind of roll up their eyes when they see such.

Now as what will happen if a martial artist meets a shooter in a fight? What kind of fight? Fist fight that turns into a shooting? Stickup? Dark ally? No real SD incident starts in a vacume.

So it depends on how skilled and savy both of them are. I've seen some real rotten shots in my time, and some pitiful martial artist. But I've seen some real wicked ones, both shooters and martial artist to.

And of course, I'm both a martial artist and a shooter who as competed in both disiplines, studied under people who had been in real life confrontations, and done this since high school and college. So that colors my views.

[stephen426]

I think the most important factor is distance. If you are too far to strike or disarm someone with a gun, all of your martial arts experience will be practically useless (unless you know how to catch bullets with your teeth :D).

Certain arts are better than others for disarming an armed opponent. Aikido and Japanese Juijitsu are probably some of the better ones since the motions are very quick and the actions are generally not projected. Certain arts like Tae Kwon Do and Shotokon project the strikes and are very easy to predict. Certain styles of kung fu are also very good at disarming attackers.

I was trained that money is replacable. If an armed attacker is robbing me, just give up the money. Only fight if there is no option. As a martial artist, you have to move your arm or leg to strike your opponent while all your attacker has to do is move his finger. Heck, any sudden moves on your mart may cause the attacker to flinch and shoot you.

Basically, it comes down to necessity. If it is absolutely not necessary, do not engage an armed attacker using only martial arts. If you think you are going to get shot anyway, better to defend yourself.

[hdm25]

"Hangunners" ARE martial artists. While I've studied martial arts under some people who were NOT also firearms users, it's been very rare. I am very suspect of anyone who claims to teach self-defense but rules out a gun as an option.

[nate45]

"Hangunners" ARE martial artists.

You beat me to the punch.

I would say for example IDPA is a martial art without a doubt and a very deadly one.

I personally would always prefer to be armed in any type of fight. .45,club,knife,pepper spray,samurai sword,ball bat,something.

"The only fair fight is the one I walk away from"-Clint Smith

[C Philip]

Assuming both people are of good skill; if there is any kind of distance between the two, the person with the gun will win. Your arms and legs simply can't reach far enough to defend against a gun unless the bad guy is holding it right up to you. Even then, as pointed out before, it's the movement of an arm versus the movement of a finger. Martial arts still have their value, as you might not always have a gun, but even a "guru" could do nothing if the guy with a gun has some distance on them and is a good shot.

[nate45]

"The only fair fight is the one I walk away from"-Clint Smith

Or something like that I don't like misqoutes wrong attributions.

Maybe it was "the one I win" anyway you get the idea.

[SIGLOCKAUR]

I've been in the Martail Arts since I was 10 years old. I carry Master Rank in Tang Soo Do and a 1st degree Black belt in Isshin Ryu. Been shooting about as long. First off combat shooting is a Martial Art in every sense of the word. Most folks go out to the range and are basically target shooting. Marksmanship is a part of combat shooting but only a part. It really surprises people that practice from the traditional "dueling" stance to have them even just have to shoot from a draw from concealment.
It's a real eye opener for most. Add having to shoot while moving, on the ground, in a chair, from a vehicle, and so on they realise the training they have been doing will do little to get them through a real confrontation. Even set a timer up to add a little pressure and it's amazing to watch them try to get their guns out in a reasonable time and engage a target. Martial refers to war. Handgun combat is certainly a division of training for war (rather on the level of nations or individuals war is war). A similar situation existed in the unarmed Martial Arts and still does in some instances. I am making reference to many of the traditional, artistically oriented Martial Arts.
If you just train in pre-arranged combat sequences such as one-step sparring, Kata, and non-contact fighting you are essentially training in the equivalent of target shooting. Yes you may throw a perfect sidekick, reverse punch or whatever. But contrary to an often perpetuated myth that may not save your beans when things get rough. Point fighting for instance, You bow in, square off, and begin to dance. First one to get within an inch of someones face or primary target "Ippon" the "fight" is stopped. The guy is awarded or not awarded a point based on what the judges thought was good or bad about the technique thrown. What has that got to do with combat?
Although developing your technique through solo practice, striking various types of training devices and so on are useful and necessary to becoming proficient you must alter and learn to apply what you have learned to a living, breathing, thinking, trying to tear your head off opponent or you are learning Martial dance, not fighting. Just like a target shooter than can score amazing hits at 25-50 yards by taking the exact stance, half a breath let out, sight alignment, sight picture, and on and on is an incredible skill in and of itself. You just don't have time for all that perfect technique when someone(s) is trying to blow your head off. My point to this long winded dissertation?
After the Samurai and others were disarmed and not allowed to practice their trade for real the practice changed. It went from being a War Art (Jitsu) to a means of self development (Do). Perfection of technique and self were emphasised over combat effectiveness. It became a game as opposed to a lifesaving skill. It got too far from it's roots. It got to where their was little left of combat and more acrobatics/dance than anything else. Could some still make it work? Sure. But they usually had real combat experience. You see the same thing happening in shooting.
Look at the shooting events where "race (space?)" guns, barely their holsters, timers and so on are present. What started off with Mr. Cooper and others as trying to develop a means to practice and improve ones skills a armed combat became a game of the fastest person, with the most expensive gun, optical sights, compensators, trick holsters, and on and on. Winning the game became the object. Not winning the battle. So I've gone round about in dealing with your question. But for a purpose.
True Martial Arts encompass all aspects of fighting. Armed and unarmed. Just as the Samurai trained with their Katana's they also learned unarmed techniques for worst case situations. Many practiced with the Bo (long staff), Jo (short staff), Tanto (knife), and so on. They might not be able to carry or use their weapon of choice sometimes. If pressed tightly into a corner they might not be able to draw their Katana. All they might be able to do is use a knife, or knife hand (Shuto). In the more modern schools of shooting/Martial Arts they are mixing empty hand, knife, stick, handgun, long gun, and every possible weapon that might come into play. Good!
Every situation is not answered by a handgun. In tight quarters if your opponent has their gun drawn it might be faster to try a disarm than try to draw. Unlike the entertaining but dim witted movies no one would throw away a modern firearm to duel to the death empty handed with their opponent. At least not anyone with any brains.
The great scene in the Indiana Jones movies in which Harrison Ford simply shot the monster armed with the sword was perfect. But what about when you can't wear a .45 Colt revolver (S&W?) strapped top your side? Someone put it well awhile back. Gun people for a long time used to view every problem as a "gun problem". Empty hand practitioners viewed everything from an "empty hands" perspective. The real world is not so one dimensional. So as to your question. To me a modern Martial Artist must know the tools of the time (Samurai-Sword, Current day-gun) and the timeless tools of self defense (our bodies).
To get to the meat of your question I and others I have trained with have successfully dealt with armed opponents. I'm still here! But usually I'm carrying at least one gun (usually two), a knife, and the greatest defensive skill their is "awareness" whenever I can. Let me end with a quote fromSensei Toguchi of Goju Ryu Shoreikan when asked if an unarmed Martial Artist could defend himself against an opponent with a gun. "You ask if a man may becoime sufficiently skilled in the Martial Arts to empty handedly defeat an opponent with a gun? My answer is," yes of course this is possible. But in addition to skill, the Martial Artist must be very lucky. And the man with the gun must be very stupid". The world is full of lucky and stupid people. A a point about luck. No matter how good you get at unarmed and armed combat luck will always play a part. Rather a "lucky punch" or bullet. Skill will only get you so far. Try using simunitions against other armed opponents sometime. No matter how skilled you are with a handgun you will still sometimes "eat paint". Life has no guarantees except death. Hopefully Martial Arts training will keep that from happening until it is time.

[Deaf Smith]

To me a modern Martial Artist must know the tools of the time

How true Siglockuar! While nachucka sticks are not common on the streets, guns, knives, clubs, and yes, the Bo are common (get a mop and break the mop off with your foot and you have a staff or Bo.)

[Playboypenguin]

This one time I saw Chuck Norris...

There is a good reason that armies that relied heavily on the traditional martial arts or hand to hand fighting, such as China, Japan, Native Americans, etc fell so easily to smaller European troop numbers armed with the first firearms.

[Ocraknife]

I have practiced martial arts for many years and if I had to face an opponent intent on harming me I would use any and all means (including guns) at my disposal to avoid injury.

[hdm25]

There is a good reason that armies that relied heavily on the traditional martial arts or hand to hand fighting, such as China, Japan, Native Americans, etc fell so easily to smaller European troop numbers armed with the first firearms.

What...? :confused:

China had the first firearms.

European nations never, ever conquered China or Japan.

Native Americans were killed primarily by disease, though I'll admit that they really didn't stand much of a chance against the Europeans on the battlefield.

[Playboypenguin]

China had the first firearms.
China invented gunpowder and "may" have created the first crude firearms (I say may because there is alot of historical dispute over that topic) but they are far from the ones that perfected them or the first to put them into common practice.
European nations never, ever conquered China or Japan.
I do not think I ever mentioned anything about being conquered? During expeditions, travels, and attempts of expansion, conquest and trade Asian forces often clashed with European explorers and armies. Not to mention times when European countries would arm smaller asian factions for use against other asian groups.

[samoand]

Do a search on Alex Gong. He was a world champion kickboxer who got shot and killed in SF in 2003 in a street confrontation.

[workinwifdakids]

I studied Shotokan Karate for about two years. Basically, I stuck around long enough to become better than the average guy in a barfight, and circumstances were such that I couldn't continue training.

However, two of the sensei at the dojo often traveled throughout the U.S. and overseas teaching other blackbelts in shotokan how to be better blackbelts, so it was absolute top-quality instruction. One of my sensei talked about guns one time. He said he'd perfected the craft of shotokan karate to as fine a point as probably anyone alive, and that if faced with a gun, he'd be dead. He said that if the gunman came into his reach, then he gave his chances no better than 50/50, but he'd probably be dead.

[Deaf Smith]

Being skilled with your hands and feet, even if very highly skilled, does not guarantee anything. You can do everthing right and still die, gun or no.

H2H is a last ditch defense, and on airliners and such about the only realistic defense! When I board an airliner, I still carry weapons... my hands, feet, elbows, and knees. People who rely only on guns board aircraft truely unarmed.

[Playboypenguin]

Being skilled with your hands and feet, even if very highly skilled, does not guarantee anything.
You got that right. A friend of mine teaches martial arts locally and has a couple different belts. He is also about 5'7" and weighs about 150lbs. Just a few weeks ago I was able to playfully over power and pin him to the ground on a dare at a cook-out. I attribute to me be a very slow but much larger 6'-6'1" and weighing in at a slim 215-220lbs. :o :)

I am not an untrained fighter by any means but I am just a brawler. I hae nowhere near the same skills as him.

[The Tourist]

It's the man, not the metal. Don't be fooled by names and claims.

For example, right now with me is a Japanese cutting implement. It has many layers of folded and welded steel. It has been hammered and polished with an Rc rating of 64, at least. I personally straightened and perfected the bevel, using numerous waterstones, several polishing papers of various grits, including 60,000 series chromium oxide paste.

There is no denying that one swipe with this creation will take any man's arm down through every tendon right to the bone.

What is this magic tool? Is it a 14th century katana or secret ninja device.

Of course not, it's a Hattori kitchen knife. A gyuto to be exact.

As presented, there are several well trained martial artists of eastern disciplines who have contributed to this thread.

If my gyuto was to fall into their skilled hands, my advice is to run--if that, in fact, is still possible.

[CWO4USCGRET]

what ifs, but this one is too funny not to.

I am a law enforcement officer. I have received training in ground fighting, defensive tactics, arrest techniques, soft and hard control techniques, and weapons retention and defensive tactics.

Can someone with training disarm someone pointing a firearm at them? Yes it can be done; in a training situation I took a empty, but cocked 1911 Colt away from a police detective one day - by the time the hammer dropped the pistol was pointed at the detective's stomach and not at me as it started. In a life or death situation would I try to do that move? I will do what ever I feel may be necessary to save my life...

I suspect that the general consensus of martial art masters would probably train their students to prepare their minds to be able to make that decision if it and when it has to be done but each person must make the decision themselves...

[ws6_keith]

Check out these guys...they train hands-on. Bring the weapon of your choice and see if it works.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

[bigghoss]

it seams to me that the "21 foot rule" applys here

[FS2K]

No wallet or watch is worth your life.

When faced with a dangerous situation you must either act, or avoid. Doing nothing invites trouble.

There is a thin line between bravery and stupidity, avoiding a situation where the odds are clearly stacked against you is not a cowardly act. The goal is to live to fight another day. Only you can decide if the situation can be avoided or not.

Never show up to a gunfight with a knife.

Friends, I think we can all agree that going up against an armed adversary while unarmed ourselves is a "last resort" option, and one that should be avoided when at all possible. Like my Sensei told me, we can either act or avoid any dangerous situation that comes our way. While I am sure that there are very brave people among us here on this board to assume that every situation we may face can be dealt with only one way is foolish, and potentially deadly. The odds are very against you to go up against an armed adversary with a gun, not matter how many years of Martial Arts training you may have. It's always better to live to fight another day...or for as long as it takes to arm yourself as well. :)

[threegun]

There are so many variables that come into play in any armed or unarmed confrontation. If the jaw of the greatest martial artist in the world meets my left hook or straight right all of his training will go out the window. Yet the odds decrease that my hook and right meets his jaw with no training on my part or increased training on his.

I think the best way to put this is martial arts training (or any fighting discipline) conditions the mind and body to use the weapons available. The black belt has sparred so many times that he will be far more likely to win his individual battle. Just like someone armed with a gun increases his chances of survival with training. Nothing is guaranteed but training does better the odds.

Gun vs. knife is bad enough Gun vs empty hand is suicide

[easyG]

Is it possible for an unarmed martial artist to defeat an opponent armed with a firearm?

Yes, it is possible....but not very likely.

The developement of firearms changed combat forever.
It brought about the demise of both the european knight and the japanese samurai.
While it took both knights and samurai many many years to become proficient in combat, it took the average peasant only a couple of months to become proficient with a firearm.
The warlords quickly understood the economics involved and realized that they could hire trained peasants armed with firearms for much less $$$ than knights or samurai.
And the peasants were much cheaper and easier to replace when they fell on the battlefield than either knights or samurai.

And remember that unarmed martial arts mostly florished in places where the populance was not allowed to own other weapons, like firearms.
IIRC, unarmed martial arts florished in Okinawa mostly because the commoners were not allowed to carry weapons.
Unarmed martial arts did not florish in the US so much because the common man could carry firearms.

Even an untrained and inexperienced shooter (with a loaded firearm) is just as deadly a threat as a master martial artist....perhaps even moreso.

[Dj Dust]

I am a 3rd degree black belt and I carry a gun. I don't have any "REAL" life experience but my teacher worked on disarming people with guns and knives of all different types and sizes. What is comes down to is.....is the person close enough for you to disarm them, do they give you the opportunity.... are they focused on you or are they watching what is around them, if they take there eyes off you you have a better chance of taking the weapon from them.....

... you just have to know going for there gun could mean your life.

[The Tourist]

"Never show up to a gunfight with a knife."

I realize this is a gun forum, but I wish we could get past this.

Most of the guys here know lots about firearms and reloading. Many have CCW licenses or have spent years (in fact, decades) practicing and hunting. More than a few of us are combat trainers or martial arts instructors.

But some of us aren't that well versed. What about new guys just getting into our sport? We all know that many folks just buy a handgun and a singular box of ammunition and think they can take on the world.

We don't seem to learn from the "21 foot rule." Or, the fact that a trained martial artist within grappling distance with an edged weapon can seriously hurt you before you before you've even initiated any move to a speed rock.

We don't discuss disparity of force. Many women and men of small stature now carry firearms or pepper spray. Ever see a 275 pound weight lifter on 'roid rage? His superior strength can easily wrest a weapon away from the weaker. Heck, he's a danger to the populace whether he's armed or not.

Kidding aside, edged weapons (and blunt force trauma weapons) are a factor in defense against aggressors.

See Snopes.

[Samurai]

Ah... Another martial arts thread!

It seems that there are two major questions in this thread: 1. What happens when a trained martial artist is confronted by a guy with a gun? and 2. Does anybody have any cool stories about empty hand vs. gun?

As to the first question: After a few years of training and testing on this topic, it has been my experience that, around 99 times out of 100, when a trained martial artist is attacked with a handgun at close range with no prior warning, the guy with the gun shoots the martial artist before the martial artist can figure out what's happening and take the gun away. That other 1 time out of 100, the martial artist grabs the gun away before he can be shot.

My qualification to these findings are: The guy with the gun typically only gets one shot off before the martial artist is on him, and that one shot is typically not very well aimed. So, the martial artist usually suffers a non-lethal wound, and manages to get the gun away.

As to the second question: The only story I know about is a parable on proper practice. You must remember the statement, "You will perform what you practice." Make it your mantra, and live by it.

My martial arts instructor, in his younger years, was an army man. He would train with his friends on the base in empty hand weapons-disarming techniques. Each time they would run a disarming drill, he would grapple the weapon away from his training partner, and then he would calmly hand the weapon back to his training partner to repeat the drill.

One night, my instructor was in a parking lot on the base, and he was held up by a mugger. The mugger drew a weapon and demanded my instructor's wallet and car keys. My instructor, without thought or hesitation, clapped his hands down on the weapon, stripped it from the attacker's hands, and then calmly handed the weapon back to his attacker! The attacker took the weapon, and my instructor repeated this process three more times!!! Each time, he would strip the weapon, and then calmly hand it back to the attacker! He finally woke up and realized what he had been doing, whereupon he took the weapon away for the last time and kept it. The attacker was LITERALLY speechless by the end of the exchange.

Moral of the story: Practice like it's real. Because, when it IS real, you will perform what you have practiced!

[samoand]

There is a problem with martial arts schools in US. It's being addressed with growing popularity of MMA. Typical ma schools breed black belts who train forms, break specially purchased boards and do no-contact sparring. They are good for both, children and adults, as far as teaching discipline, spirituality, and certain type of physical development. They can't really fight, but it's not the problem. The problem is, they think that they can. Nothing against those schools, they just have to be recognized for what they are. In a fighting scenario, reference to a "black belt" doesn't mean much without specifics of the school where it was obtained.

Back to Alex Gong (1970-2003), I mentioned him above. The guy was a world champion full contact kickboxer. He was as legit of a fighter as it gets. And yet he succumbed to a single bullet shot by a car thieve. Meanwhile, I know first hand of several encounters where trained people would come off on top of an armed assailant. What gives? Evaluation of those situations shows that the difference that closes the gap between life and death is situational awareness. Situational awareness is not something that's trained in gym, and unfortunately it's not something that you can just learn mentally. Just like any other skill, it's learned hard way. That's why guys who live in line of harm have somewhat of advantage in these situations. Reading body language, quietly closing the distance when other guy's hand innocently goes in his pocket, positioning yourself closer to a water pipe laying on the ground - without these little things even the best martial arts training may prove completely useless, unless you are dealing with a total schmuck.

And back to Alex Gong. I somehow feel very wrong that a fighter of his caliber didn't have situational awareness developed enough to get him out of line of danger. Even though it's not learned in gym, this level of body development should tune up mental faculties as well. Overconfidence perhaps? We'll never know what was going through his mind.

[kungfucowboy]

i have one second hand story i heard from an old and really big guy i practiced wing tsun with. when he was younger he was a jujustu guy pretty highly ranked/skilled and was working as a bouncer. one night he asks this guy to leave the and they guy tried to pull a gun my friend was prepared and slaped it out of the guys hand, but the guy draws a second gun so my friend tried a normal wrist lock to disarm the punk unfortunately that swept the barrel across his body and he got shot in the leg.
it was so close though that my friend broke the guys windpipe and beat the hell out of him, they were both taken to the same emergency room and the other guy went to jail.

i don't know if it was true or not but the guy was not given to showing off or bragging and the topic at the time was just how easily a disarm can go wrong.

[ace1001]

H2H is a last ditch defense, and on airliners and such about the only realistic defense! When I board an airliner, I still carry weapons... my hands, feet, elbows, and knees. People who rely only on guns board aircraft truely unarmed.
___
Careful, the libs will come and confiscate those bodyparts too, when getting rid of guns doesn't end all violence. Make you ride that airplane like Hanable Lecter..... Ace_______________

[vox rationis]

Some have argued, fairly persuasively, that at contact distance, and from a concealed draw, a knife fighter can have a big advantage over someone with a gun, as the knife can deliver devastating wounds in the flash of an eye and is much harder to defend against/redirect/trap etc.

Here's a couple of interesting video of Silat, the Indonesian Martial art. I haven't studied it, but this guy has some smooth moves. The disarms of course rely on the gun making contact or near contact with the would be victim, and at times it seems like he sweeps himself with the muzzle, but still this guy looks like he's got some strong kung fu :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjCCDXN5Pew&mode=related&search=

And here is some Silat knife fighting. If you are at contact distance with one of these dudes I'm not so sure that gun would win against knife :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk&mode=related&search=

[The Tourist]

"interesting video"

Yes, and I wish I had those skills.

My comments were directed to folks who think a CCW license somehow removes them from the dangers of contact weapons.

There's a scene in a 'Simpsons' cartoon where Homer burns his high school diploma after graduating from college.

Just remember that 'super steels' like S30V or VG-10 can slash and puncture kevlar.

Just like any other discipline, you have to learn what your opponent might throw at you. Several years ago I saw a article by Ayoob about 'fending moves' designed to buy time against contact weapons for a responses like a speed rock. Very good idea.

Be sure to ask your friends in the Escrima arts about how they might hurt you with a blade.

Just remember, there are guys out there who think, "Hey, look, he brought a gun to a knife fight..."

[robc]

This thread reminds me of a scene in Magnum P.I. He's fighting a kung fu guy. ends up pointing a gun in kung fu guy's face. Magnum says to the guy, "Don't. Nobody's that fast." Kung fu guy makes his move, screne goes black with the sound of a gunshot.

Magnum was back next week, kung fu guy wasn't.

While I was typing this I thought of a relatively safe way to see if someone can touch my arm (change shot placement) before I can get a shot off. Someone tell me if this is a psycho idea.

I aim at silouette target 5 yds out. Simulated BG stands to my right or left. We could do a variety of distances and positions, as long as BG stayed to one side and PUSHED my gun arm/hand. Heck, he could even use a board or a pole or something. As soon as I see movement, I pull the trigger. If I hit COM, I win. If I'm off, I know that, had this been a real-life situation, I would have let the BG get too close. I think I just found a good use for a paintball gun.

[eltorrente]

I aim at silouette target 5 yds out. Simulated BG stands to my right or left. We could do a variety of distances and positions, as long as BG stayed to one side and PUSHED my gun arm/hand. Heck, he could even use a board or a pole or something. As soon as I see movement, I pull the trigger. If I hit COM, I win. If I'm off, I know that, had this been a real-life situation, I would have let the BG get too close. I think I just found a good use for a paintball gun.

Some friends and I messed around with a water-pistol once. We found that if you held the gun to someone's head, that person could ALWAYS smack the gun away before the trigger could be pulled and noone ever got wet. That only worked when the gun was right against the temple or forehead. When the watergun was held just a foot or two away in front of the "victim", there was no chance at all of grabbing it and everyone got a lethal dose of water to the chest.

[C Carman]

I always find this topic rather interesting. I think it should go without saying that in a conflict situation having a firearm handy would be the obvious preference. That being said, it's not always possible. I used to teach Kempo and while we as instructors were taught and knew techniques intended for use against an armed attacker we were not allowed to teach them to students. Someone up the chain was afraid a student might end up in a situation where they were shot and the family would sue us saying that if they had complied they would have been ok. Good ol' sue happy California.

On occasion myself and the other instructors would train with an airsoft gun. Wearing a heavyweight GI the little yellow pellets can hardly be felt, but you could see very quickly what worked and what didn't. As has been said before, it's all about distance. I was pretty skeptical at first, but action is faster than reaction. We also tried a couple of different things. One person with the airsoft gun and one person with a knife tucked in his belt. If you haven't had a chance to do this sort of thing go get an airsoft gun, some friends and some goggles and see how good you are. You may surprise yourself, one way or the other.

Now i'm not saying anything is easy, or works everytime or even most of the time, but we've all heard of stories of even the most compliant victims being shot during a robbery. I guess its up to each of us to decide whether we want to take our chances and go down swinging.

Sorry i don't have anything to contribute in the way of good gun vs kung fu stories, which i think was the intention of this thread, but i did have a 3rd degree black belt friend who was attacked with a tire iron. Let's just say the attacker probably wished he had brought a gun.

[easyG]

Just remember that 'super steels' like S30V or VG-10 can slash and puncture kevlar.
Off topic, but just for clairfication.....
VG-10 and S30V are no more effective and no less effective against kevlar than AUS6, 440A, 420HC, or any other lesser steel.
It all about the design of the blade.
Even a cheap grocery store icepick will puncture kevlar.

[threegun]

"Hey, look, he brought a gun to a knife fight..."

Only in dream world. A man with training, situational awareness, and a gun will trump a man with training, situational awareness and a knife 99.9 percent of the time. Luck will play a major factor in that .01 percent win ratio also.

Now a man with a gun and no training and bad situational awareness would stand a much better chance of being defeated by a trained knife fighter.

[ace1001]

Firstly, the gunman can engage from across the room. So BG most often isn't going to engage that close. Secondly, The gun is GOING to go off, so you better plan for where it will go, family members ect, and the muzzle better not be by your ear or your exploding eardrum will stun you. Ace

[The Tourist]

"a man with training, situational awareness"

For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with you. I believe that the man with better training in any discipline stands a better chance of surviving.

The problem with this debate is that police officers, soldiers and martial artists get stabbed or slashed. And they have training.

Now, the reason, as you point out, could be something as simple as 'condition white.' However, we have historical situations in the Philippines and the Kyber Pass where edged weapons had success.

Look, I'm not trying to denigrate the use of firearms. However, just because you have a CCW license and a handgun is no guaranty you're going to escape injury or even win.

(BTW, my personal protection is a Colt pistol.)

[vox rationis]

This thread reminds me of a scene in Magnum P.I. He's fighting a kung fu guy. ends up pointing a gun in kung fu guy's face. Magnum says to the guy, "Don't. Nobody's that fast." Kung fu guy makes his move, screne goes black with the sound of a gunshot.

Haha that was a cool episode and I'm glad the evil kung fu bad boy got his, but in real life I think that in a hostage situation, with you as the hostage, if you were to try a disarm then 1) you better fast and good and 2) it would be best if subterfuge was used such as cowering, crying, doing it while the bad guy was in the midst of talking, or doing it while you are in the midst of saying something etc.

In the Magnum episode it was a pure contest with both participants intently concentrating on acting decisively, and if I remember right Magnum did not have the gun within 3 feet of the kung fu man, and the kung fu man had his hands at his sides! In such a circumstance it is like Magnum said: "nobody is that fast" :D

[Playboypenguin]

It all about the design of the blade.
Side note...tanto blades are excellent for puncturing kevlar. They go right through it like butter.

[brickeyee]

Many years ago Jhoon Rhee was robbed at gunpoint.
He got shot.

[SIGLOCKAUR]

Never, ever, underestimate a knife! Short story. 20+ years ago I was jumped by a a couple of guys in a bathroom at a bar. As the first one came at me (armed) I drew a Buck knife I carried at the time. I slashed an artery in his arm in the proper manner (down the length of the artery). Immediately, and I mean right then blood sprayed all over both of us. It was Godawful. Trainig doesn't preare you for this. His friend turned tail and ran. The guy looked at the wound, looked at me, said "I feel hot", and passed out.
I took off my belt and made an improvised tourniquet. Good thing my instructor insisted on us taking a first aid course before we could test for our Black Belt. Some friends and I loaded him in a van and rushed him to a nearby hospital. When we took him in the nurses eyes got as big as two saucers. She thought we were both hurt and hurt badly because of all the blood covering both of us. I dropped him at triage and told the nurse I had to go get another one. We split.
Both were armed BTW. The one that reached to grab me had a lead pipe. That's why I "unzipped" his arm. He was ready to take my head off.
He survived but found out later he had tendon damage in his arm that severly restricted the use of his hand. I am in no way proud of this. I did what I had to do. It's just to illustrate a point. At close range a knife can be devastating.
It's not like the movies. "Oh it's just my arm". Yeah right! A few well placed slashes and a man bleeds out very quickly. This really put it into perspective for me. I have a friend who is a police chaplin for a large city up North.
Among his many duties he would go with next of kin to ID bodies. One psycho went after a man with a large butcher knife. More like a short sword really. He literally cut the guy into little pieces. They had what was left of him in buckets. The only way his sister ID'd him was one of the fingers floatiing in the mess had a ring on it she recognized. She immediately opassed out. Said he'd never seen a gun do that. Not saying knives are more deadly than guns. But up close they can do incredible damage!

[The Tourist]

"But up close they can do incredible damage!"

This is the point I was trying to make. And as you've stated, they don't train you to look at the mess once a cut has been made.

One of the aspects of my job is to sharpen knives for chefs. And I don't mean 'sharpen' in the sense that I scrape a knife on a soft Arkansas. I mean that I use professional tools, stones and fixtures to put polished edges on restaurant quality knives.

Many of these knives are Japanese laminates costing from 400 to 2,000 dollars per each. The edges are incredibly thin. They are chisel ground on one side, and hollow ground on the other.

Within a few minutes I have seen a sous-chef take down an entire section of beef.

As I have stated, my EDC knife is an Emerson HD-7 with this same style of chisel ground edge. I sharpen this pocketknife on the same stones and with the same techniques I use on chefs' knives.

But clearly, I am also a 'gun guy,' and I use the same combat stances and drills that most of you also use. I believe that attacks are messy, and probably never go as planned. In a perfect situation, I would complete a perfect Mozambique no matter how fast my aggressor might wield an edged weapon.

If we were having this debate where I work, I would hand you my personal knife and a sausage. After you made some cuts, I would ask you if I am adequately armed. I would also ask that you google Ernest Emerson, the inventor of my knife, and learn a bit about his philosophy and the training he offers.

[BillCA]

Action is faster than reaction. If you're trying to control a situation you'll be reacting to your opponent and always behind the curve. This includes thinking about what you're going to do next.

For this reason, sometimes your best advantage is to strike while your oppoenent is talking. It takes .50-.75 seconds to react to a threat when concentrating, however studies show it takes between .18 and .50 seconds to react when talking because the brain has to "shift modes" as it were.

For an athletic opponent at 21 feet, it may be possible for them to reach you, even if you have drawn your weapon. Most people don't practice regularly with moving targets and if they can move unpredictibly with some speed, they may be able to reach you before you make a hit.

Many years ago I was fortunate enough to meet Robert Koga who literally wrote the book on the use of the police baton (in the pre-PR24 days) and on self-defense techniques for police officers. His advice was that all disarmament techniques are "last ditch", for those times when you can't draw (time, disadvantage, etc.) or you are unarmed and you think he's going to kill you.

He was also the one who told me the formula D + C = T or... Distance + Concealment/Cover equals time to react.

[kennybs plbg]

Back east in my home town, there was a local LEO who was into martial arts for self defense. He would at times display his talent and it was pretty cool. He would challenge anyone to hold a toy gun to his back and to pull the trigger at the first sign of his movement to disarm them. I can't ever remember him losing the challenge. The guy was good, but he was no big name person just an average joe who was good at what he did.

kenny b

[The Tourist]

"hold a toy gun"

I've always wondered if this drill had any real validity.

For example, we all know of guys who are incredible shots, and by that I mean bullseye champs and rifle shots of almost sniper quality.

Then they go to an IPSC match and under pressure of only a time clock, try to fire their 1911 with the safety on.

As in the case of the 21-foot rule, yes, I know it's a very real tactic. However, I doubt if I'm going to take a running charge at a felon and his loaded pistol when I just have a jackknife.

There's a very real difference between 'grappling distance' and 21 feet.

And let's set our egos aside. I was never a very fast runner even in my youth. I became a good shot only after a truckload of ammo, well made pistols and the control of a bad natural flinch. My own combat skills of birthright are more along the lines of adrenaline and a billard cue.

Using myself as an example, I'll bet that my performance on a quiet target range practicing speed rocks might even be flawless. However, I'll bet I'd freeze for a few moment's reaction time if you jumped me in a dark alley.

I just don't think people have a personal investment when facing a toy gun.

Last week, a Madison police officer shot and killed a man who pulled a gun. Upon examination, the pistol turned out to be a toy. When it's real, it's totally different. I'll bet that toy gun looked like a cannon.

[Playboypenguin]

Back east in my home town, there was a local LEO who was into martial arts for self defense. He would at times display his talent and it was pretty cool. He would challenge anyone to hold a toy gun to his back and to pull the trigger at the first sign of his movement to disarm them. I can't ever remember him losing the challenge. The guy was good, but he was no big name person just an average joe who was good at what he did.
The biggest problem with this is he is prepared to react to a very specific and pre-determined action before the situation actually occurs. This allows him to already be in action and simply be delaying his response until he says "go." I am sure he is also telling them when to try and pull the trigger giving himself a split second head start. He is taking the "assesment" stage out of his reaction.

If he handed someone the same gun and said "sometime during the next few days come up behind me and try to shoot me" he would most likely fail every time.

[Samurai]

The "toy gun" drill is a good "eye-opener" drill to run, for people who have never tried to do anything like this before. Playboypenguin and The Tourist are right, in that the drill does not factor in the adrenaline rush and time delay associated with a real-life situation. BUT, the "toy gun" drill is a measure of the "best case scenario," and it will let you know whether or not you are quick enough, given enough alertness, preparedness, and aforethought of the threat, for the disarming technique to even be possible.

In other words, if you're running the "toy gun" drill to see if your martial arts skills "will protect you against a gun," forget it. You're wasting your time, because the drill is not sufficiently representative of the real-life situation. But, if you're trying to answer the question, "In a best case scenario, is it possible for me to get this guy before he can draw and shoot me?", then the "toy gun" drill is a pretty good test.

[kennybs plbg]

The biggest problem with this is he is prepared to react to a very specific and pre-determined action before the situation actually occurs. This allows him to already be in action and simply be delaying his response until he says "go." I am sure he is also telling them when to try and pull the trigger giving himself a split second head start. He is taking the "assesment" stage out of his reaction.


Your missing my point here which is reaction time. He didn't say go or now, his instructions to the gun holder was to react to his first move and shoot him, no one could, even when they knew it was comming.

kenny b

[Playboypenguin]

Your missing my point here which is reaction time. He didn't say go or now, his instructions to the gun holder was to react to his first move and shoot him, no one could, even when they knew it was comming.

No, the point is he is not dealing with reaction time at all. Reaction time includes an assesment stage which is being completely bypassed. He is not "reacting"...he is simply "acting" out a pre-rehersed action. To gauge reaction time a person has to be introduced to an unexpected stimuli and then reaction time is the amount of time it takes them to recognize the threat and then act to counter it.

The very fact that he hands the person a toy gun abd then turns his back is the same as saying "go."

We did similar similar drills in the military and during my training at the state police academy. The only difference was we did not know what it was coming. It would usually occur while we were in formation and we never knew when or where. Every cadet failed to survive the mock encounter. It was used as a means to show the recruits, many of whom fancied themseves ninjas, that a bad guy with a gun will get you everytime if you are caught unaware. It was a lesson in being aware of your surroundings.

[kennybs plbg]

To gauge reaction time a person has to be introduced to an unexpected stimuli and then reaction time is the amount of time it takes them to recognize the threat and then act to counter it.



Boy this is kinda like talking to the wife!

The reaction time is of the guy with the gun reacting to a defensive move of the person with the gun in his back.
Hence the amount of time it takes him to pull the trigger when he realizes the guy is making his move. I've seen it done, please don't tell me it's impossible and not a true test.

kenny b

[Playboypenguin]

I've seen it done, please don't tell me it's impossible and not a true test.
What you have seen done is a pre-determined action to a pre-planned occurence. It is not a true test of reaction time.

Read Samuria and a few others posts again. Maybe you will start to see the distinction.

[kennybs plbg]

Your kidding right, This isn't worth my time anymore.

kenny b

[The Tourist]

I can understand people's frustration, but we're all on the same side and we should be responding to valid information and skills, while debunking some very dangerous urban legends.

Admittedly, we tossed terms around like "play" and "toy gun." Perhaps we should have used terms like 'scenario,' or 'practice.'

As you know, I'm very much against this "knife to a gunfight" drivel. I'm sure the older guys take kind of a been-there-done-that stance, but a guy with a crisp new CCW license might think he has nothing to worry about.

We see lots of those rubber knife trainers. My guess is that rubber knives are a part of many contact martial arts disciplines.

To that, consider a friend coming up to you saying, "Hey, The Tourist is looking for you--he's mad, drunk, full of adrenaline and carrying a Japanese sashimi knife."

In point of fact, the proper course is to call 9-1-1, not make insipid jokes.

If the 1984 Miami FBI shooting taught us nothing else it's the fact that a man who's been shot, and in the act of dying, can live for another 90 seconds.

I don't care what kind of a fancy-schmancy combat weapon you have. If I have 90 seconds to work you over with a Japanese fish knife you won't be repeating jokes for long.

And that's the point. Help each other. Suggest magazine articles or google a few links for the members here. We're the good guys. Let's teach each other to stay alive.

[threegun]

"Bringing a knife to a gun fight" does have certain requirements for the gunman. First the gunman must kept enough distance between the two so as not to be cut while delivering gunfire. Second the gunman must be able to hit his adversary. Thrid the gunman must be able to transition from traditional center mass to the pelvic girdle or head. If the gunman does his job the classic "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" line is perfectly safe and there isn't a thing the knife guy can do about it. For the unprepared, under trained, or underestimating it could be human steaks for dinner.

[The Tourist]

"For the unprepared, under trained, or underestimating"

Excellent points. We should remind our brothers here of this.

Look, I like jokes as much as the next guy. In fact, I laughed out loud when I first heard the "knife to a gunfight" joke. The problem is that we seem to have taken the joke and made it a manual of arms.

I even heard the gag on CSI.

During the last week I bought an 18 dollar Japanese pocketknife from my distributor. In truth, I just wanted to see one. Oh, I had seen the Japanese build 'American' pocketknives like Kershaws and Sydercos, but those are for export.

This was a real-deal Japanese home-grown product.

Imagine my surprise when I opened the package and found that the knife had a sashimi blade. That is, a chisel grind on the decorative side and a hollow-grind on the obverse side.

I gave it a polish and now it is the sharpest knife I own. I have handed it to clients who are all in disbelief.

So let's suppose the advice that Threegun just gave us is ignored. If an aggressor confronted Mr. Threegun intending him harm and denigrating sound advice, I know what I would do.

I'd toss him the Japanese knife and say, "Hey, TG, finish him off."

[threegun]

I had been dabbling in knife fighting recently just for sheits and grins. I have no doubt in my mind that if I fail with my gun and allow Mr bad guy with a knife to get within striking distance I'm gonna suffer significant injury or death. Even more so is my belief after learning a bit about knife fighting. How certain slashes can incapacitate certain muscle groups etc.

Knife fighting is so bloody and nasty that I stopped pursuing it. I feel that there is no way I could defend myself in court after having placed multiple slashes to an adversary no matter how justified at the time. The cuts (most cuts) don't kill or incapacitate very fast and with knife fighting you are trained to get what you can when you can and get out. Nasty stuff. With a proper knife it won't take but a few seconds to butcher a foe.

[Playboypenguin]

I have no doubt in my mind that if I fail with my gun and allow Mr bad guy with a knife to get within striking distance I'm gonna suffer significant injury or death.
Knife defense was some of the hardest classes in LEO training. The worst part is, as most instructors will tell you, that even the most seasoned self defense gurus have a bad habit of letting instinct kick in when attacked by a knife and this causes them to usually do the worst thing they can do and grab the blade. The main emphasis in the training was "do not let a man with a knife get close to you."

[The Tourist]

"so bloody and nasty that I stopped pursuing it"

Threegun, my story is a bit of "good news, bad news."

First, the bad news. I live in the Peoples' Republik of Wisconsin. We have no CCW permits. Many carry anyway, but that would be wrong.

We are allowed open carry and 'off body' in a case. Since I was white-collar at the time of purchase, I bought a discrete day-planner.

Now the good news. I'm a knife distributor and polisher. I get all of the toys at about half price, and I have Japanese waterstones to make them perform. A gentleman by the name of Ben Dale sells most of the equipment I need, and he trained me. I liked the work so much that I retired and started my own business.

In college, I thought I might like to go into illustration, and perhaps advertising, as I like to write. To complete that portion of my education, I had to take loads of English and lit courses, and anatomy. (I assumed it was to study the human body for accurate renderings.)

You might find this funny for a biker, but I also took fencing for three years. Two years in high school, and one year in college under instructer Archie Simonson. I really only studied foil and sabre, the epee almost put me to sleep. (Epee is so slow that the inside joke is, "I dozed off during a match but scored two points.")

With no ready access to a CCW license, I've had to just learn to be comfortable with knives and accept the fact that legal status might be a few years off. Our present governor, Jim Doyle, has already vetoed a past bill.

So I settle with what I have. Superior knives, razor edges, knowledge of anatomy and formalized fencing training.

Not much of a resume' for Rambo, but this is the reality of the situation. It's not going to improve soon, and it appears that violence (and strange crimes) are on the rise in south-central Wisconsin.

So, you might see a ton of blood, slashed tendons and more intestines than you knew existed. You call the Federales, you vomit and then go home safe. There's not much of an alternative, except maybe pepper spray.

[The Tourist]

There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere there is a highly trained martial arts sensei that can disarm virtually anyone.

But let's get real guys, you and I are not that guy.

In fact, if it appeared that the guy was younger, stronger, faster and better trained than you, I would simply advise you to pull a second knife.

Trust me, you'll get a DNA sample.

[samoand]

You might find this funny for a biker, but I also took fencing for three years. European fencing is very lethal with proper equipment; possibly most lethal martial art of all that are not based on firearms and don't have to deal with armored opponents. Nothing funny about doing it for 3 years. Except perhaps how it looks :)

[The Tourist]

"Except perhaps how it looks"

I must admit, you're probably right.

As I have said, one of the sharpest edged knives I know of is the sashimi. Usually it is used to block tuna, perhaps wet chicken or fish in a shorter length for a restaurant kitchen. A sushi chef uses one.

I happened to find a jackknife with this style of edge. Sorry for the photo. The edge looks black in the pic, but I assure you it is a perfect mirror.

As I sharpened it to this quality, I did a little thing we call "tickling the dragon." That is, carefully touching the edge to sense how keen the edge is.

Yikes. Right through your tendons and into your bone...


http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/sashimi.jpg

[threegun]

With the limited training I have with the knife my abilities with it have risen tremendously. That little bit of training made me want to keep space between me and a knife even more. It is so easy to slash and very fast especially with the knife in your front hand. Almost impossible to stop. The solution is deploy a gun against the knife and keep space or get cut.

Still I carry a knife even when I carry my gun.....why??? For those awkward times when I feel unsafe by someone but they haven't given me a reason to draw my gun. I can put my knife in hand and at the ready. If jumped the knife will give me an edge (pardon the pun LOL). Many times deploying your gun might not be practical if jumped without warning.

[The Tourist]

"deploying your gun might not be practical"

Coupled with that aspect, many municipalities have statutes for 'brandishing.' Simply flashing your coat open to show a firearm can get your permit lifted in some areas.

We also have debated 'intimidation' in the forum, a concept with which I agree. I have seen many fights simply dissolve because one guy was firm and resolved and the other guy blinked. As a Japanese general once said, "The best battle is the one not fought."

Of course, there's always going to be this "one guy." Probably drunk and full of himself. He's bound and determined to provoke you for some real or imagined slight. Sometimes his buddies are egging him on.

And while we all know that this guy might be a real ***** cat when he is sober, I see no reason to take a beating for his alcoholic intake. In that context, a knife might give you some flexibility in the game of 'escalation of force.'

You might yell at an aggressor, you might even have pepper spray. But if nothing else works, you're stuck brandishing your firearm. You will be held accountable for your actions, and I'm not sure I want to face a DA after shooting a drunk holding a billard cue.

I believe people have a predetermined fear of being cut, like the fear of snakes or spiders. A slash, especially a scalp cut, sends the message through an individual's nervous system and there's a lot of blood. This might be the cold slap in the face that a bully needs to back off.

But then, like my Daddy used to say, "If you want to avoid the train, then stay off of the tracks."

It's been close to 30 years since I've been in a saloon, primarily since I hate cigarette smoke. Fortunately, Madison, Wisconsin has now implemented an almost smoke-free environment for bars and restaurants. And that's the quiet atmosphere I now seek.

Coupled with the fact that I am 57 years old, exchanging blows with a drunken townie has lost the glamor of the life I used to lead. And perhaps that's the best lesson.

When I changed my habits the bullies couldn't find me, knife or no knife.

[garryc]

Disarmement of someone useing a physical move is certainly possible. Not my first choice by far. It's just that it's better to do something than just stand there and get shot. Combine the shooting abilities and the USD abilities and you will have a much greater ability to survive and attack.

[threegun]

Disarmement of someone useing a physical move is certainly possible. Not my first choice by far. It's just that it's better to do something than just stand there and get shot.

I think most would agree that doing something is better than just waiting for death. It is just difficult to predict if the bad guy was going to shoot or not.

[SIGLOCKAUR]

I know it's been beaten to death. But most people are
probably aware of the Moro's during the Philippine Insurection. If your not it went something like this. One nutjob wanting to die for Allah would bind his body up tightly with steel wire to slow bleeding, take drugs to dull pain, and sometimes even be given a "magic amulet" that supposedly made them safe from the Infidels bullets. Give him a big, sharp knife and turn him loose on a bunch of American G.I.'s. Results?
Of course one dead Moro after being filled full of everything from .38 Long Colt to .30-.40 Krag. But usually several dead American G.I.'s cut to pieces. And for those of you that live in a dream world no the .45 Colt did not do much better than the .38 in spite of myth and legend. If a centerfire rifle had trouble bringing them down what chance did a handgun round have?
The only thing that gave the soldiers any feeling of confidence? 12 Gage Winchester Pump. It would almost (I'm sure their are exceptiions just like their are today) always do the trick. So drugged up, nutjob, bullet sponges are no knew or unknown phenomena. We have 100 plus years of dealing with them. And history has shown although not impossible it is very difficult to hit a quickly moving target, bent on doing as much damage as possible in the head. Especially when you are about to **** yourself from fear!
Fast forward to today. Get someone high on Meth or PCP and give them a sharp object. Even with lots of different bullets yes you get one dead drug user. But lots of badly hurt people before it's all said and done. Haven't seen anyone on Meth. Years ago had to deal with some folks on PCP. All I can say is they are like rabid animals. They simply had to loose alot of blood, and I mean alot before they went down. Stoping Power? BULLS*&^! Our instructor trained us on the use of knives. Very basic stuff. Ever seen an Escrima practitioner work with a knife? No joke whirling death. I survived two knife attacks when I was younger. Basically because the two guys were stupid.
To those of you training in traditional Martial Arts or a shooters. Instead of pre-arranged "one step" style drills try this. Put on gear. Give the guy who is supposed to be the aggressor with the knife a red marker. Then fight. You will truly be surprised at all the red slashes all over your protective equipment when it's all said and done. Do the same if your a shooter with an Airsoft gun or better yet Simunitions. Trust me it's a real eye opener. Look my instructors son survived several situations in which guys pulled guns. When I talked to him about it he said they all made the same mistakes.
They all had the weapons in their belts and had to draw. They all got too close. And none were surprise attacks. They were all guys he threw out of the bars he worked at. They were all stupid and said they'd be back with a gun. I asked him what if they would have had some distance and just opened fire. He said "we wouldn't be having this conversation". Distance is safety. But awareness is imperative.

[Scorch]

Martial arts prepares your body and your mind to take action. That said, it does nothing to keep you from making foolish decisions. Trying to fight an alert armed man with hand to hand techniques is a last-ditch resort. It may work, it may not, depending on the opponent. But if you're going to get capped either way, make him pay.

[The Tourist]

"nothing to keep you from making foolish decisions"

This is the crux of my argument. In fact, the truly smart individual conducts his life so that deadly armed conflict is never much of a chance.

And I think everyone here pretty much believes that in the basic sense. We are all involved in the shooting sport, and most of us are realists. Many of the people here take some form of martial arts training--and I believe in it.

For example, my wife is a teacher. After a few decades of teaching special ed, she believes the best way to handle unruly children is to enrole them in martial arts. Their self-esteem rises, their conduct improves, their grades rise. Ultimately, they are destined to become better citizens.

For the purposes of this debate, however, we are dealing with "foolish decisions."

If an untrained young braggart approaches me, and he doesn't know how to remove the safety of a 1911, we will serve him up as sushi.

If that same braggart approaches Masaad Ayoob with an ice pick, it will take a trained CSI unit just to count the holes.

So, I believe we primarily agree on a few things. First, let's be intelligent in our public conduct. Further, while we have freedom to travel as we choose, being drunk in the ghetto at zero-dark-thirty is probably not in our best interest. The martial arts is excellent training for mind and body, but it is not an instant trump card for safety.

And finally, there are 'magic men' with wonderful skills in disarmament. Tragically, experts die by violence.

[Playboypenguin]

The martial arts is excellent training for mind and body, but it is not an instant trump card for safety.
Especially when you're walking home at night and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries...then what are you going to do? :)

[Dave P]

"There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere there is a highly trained martial arts sensei that can disarm virtually anyone."


Have you met Chuck Norris? " Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People." :D

[markj]

Chuck is the first white man to achieve his level of belt. Not a weak feat.

There used to be a martial artist that caught a bullet in his teeth, an arrow in one hand etc. He was ready tho.

[Deaf Smith]

Sure I know a few martial artist that can disarm every time. After noticing an idiot with a gun that is printing they just beat the hell out of them before they even know the 'artist' was even in the same room with them.

See you guys keep thinking the handgunner is going to be waving their gun around.

I know one man, an old friend, who was a used car salesman in Lousianna. A rather ****** off ex-customer came to where he worked with a pistol in his belt. He showed the gun and told him how irritated he was. The used car salesman just pushed the gun (and gunman's hand) deeper into his belt while he bashed the guys head in with the free hand while he pinned him to the side of a car.

So, yep I know of a real life disarm. Only thing is, my friend was not, nor ever had been, in any martial art!

[paradoxbox]

You can be pretty sure most black-belts of taekwondo have little to no skill. They're flexible and that's about it.

IMO the only martial arts worth training in come from Japan. You get a good solid course in a hard style of jujutsu it will bring your understanding of reflexes and pain to a new level. If you ever make the trip to Japan you will meet some police officers and martial art experts who could knock a gun out of your hands and throw you on your neck faster than you can even think of pulling the trigger.

Trust me on this one. Anyone who thinks otherwise, if you're ever in Japan, take a stop by a local jujutsu dojo and get the head honcho of it to use you as their test mule for stuff like that.

Guns are great if you have a bit of space, however knives and hand to hand skills rule the day when you're in tight spaces. I'd pick my hand to hand or knife skills every time over a gun if I were ever confronted in a bus or train or plane.