Flat tire scenario

[LonelyAtTheTop]

Actually, this really happened to me last week. I was driving on a two lane state highway at 10:30 am when I felt the left rear tire go out. I pulled off onto a paved shoulder as the highway has heavy truck taffic and drove slowly to a side road about 50 yards ahead, turned right and parked under the briefest hint of shade. No other traffic and just one house in sight. Got out the spare and just about had the flat off when an old Nissan pick up pulled in behind me and stopped. I had the SP101 loaded with Gold Dot 135 gr .38 special +p but it was in the glove compartment.

The driver was alone, approached, and asked if he could help. I said "No, thanks" and kept working on the tire change. It was miserably hot and humid and I am no longer in the best of shape. My back was to him and I was stooping down to put the spare on. Not the best tactical position. We exchanged a few comments about his truck as I own one just like his but you would have thought I was a member of a NASCAR pit crew as I finished up the tire change while replays of all the troublesome scenarios on this and other gun boards ran through my head. How could I be so stupid and not at least have the revolver on the seat or floorboard?

He got back in his truck and said "Wait a minute, I live right here. I'll be right back." He drove into the driveway about 100 yards down the road and got out of his truck. I'm throwing flat tires, tools, and tire jacks into the trunk and am now sweating like a pig. Should I go for the gun? He pulls up again in the truck, gets out, and offers me two of the coldest bottles of water I have ever held. I take one and it is the sweetest sip of water ever.

We introduce ourselves, I thank him again and again for the water, and make a note to myself to bring him some home made jelly the next time I am in that area. I get in and start the car and even with the a/c on full blast I can feel the first hint of becoming overheated. Without that water I might have been in a bit of trouble from the heat.

Did I do OK?

[Scorch]

Being prepared doesn't always mean being ready to shoot. It also means assessing the situations as they develop, knowing when to trust help that comes your way, being calm and non-aggressive, and keeping a clear mind. This isn't combat, it's just life. I think you did fine.

[NavyLT]

Glovebox? Can you share what state you were in? In many states it's illegal to transport a firearm in the glovebox, especially loaded, without a CCL.

But, a firearm carried for self defense is only good if you can draw and fire within 4 seconds - at least that is what standard the Navy is trained to.

[jkp1187]

I had to change a flat tire last week, in Philadelphia. As it was, I was glad I had my Kahr MK9 in an OWB holster -- it stayed with me the whole time, and didn't really become uncovered that much. Having it in the holster didn't bother me at ALL while I was changing the tire. (Actually, I had to do two tires -- the flat one was on the front drive wheel, and all I had was a donut spare, so I had to put the donut on the rear tire and move the full-sized tire to the front.)

Maybe I'm just a misanthrope, but I would've felt better with the firearm on me at all times, especially when a stranger was hanging out there. That's one of the reasons I picked a smaller gun as my CCW of choice.

[LonelyAtTheTop]

Louisiana. OK for carry anywhere in the car.

[Creature]

well, I would have put the guy to work...if only just to keep him busy. "busy hands cant do the devils work" or something like that.

If you really felt the ol' radar going off, you could have claimed an injury in order to stay back and let him do the work. That way, you would have been standing behind him instead of the other way around. Sounds underhanded but everything is fair when your feel threatened.

The other moral of the story is...never judge a book by it's cover. I have met some pretty meek and mild looking fellas that will and have done evil beyond comprehension without blinking an eye ...and some pretty rough looking dudes who WITHOUT FAIL will stop and walk an old lady across the street.

[dawg23]

I was driving on a two lane state highway at 10:30 am when I felt the left rear tire go out. I pulled off onto a paved shoulder........Louisiana. OK for carry anywhere in the car.

OK, I gotta call BS. Everybody knows there are no Louisiana Highways with paved shoulders.
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Just kidding. Glad it worked out safely for you.

[markj]

Did I do OK?

I have to ask, what if you had the pistol on your person? Would you have drawn? shot? Why are you so paranoid? Is it our society today?

When I was younger like in the 70s we would always stop and lend a hand to folks broke down. Is this unsafe nowadays? To offer aid? get shot? I dont get it at all. Why all the fear? Unconfidant in your ablity to defend yourself in a hand to hand situation? or just think everyone is out to get me thing?

I stop each winter and pull some one out of the ditch, happens every winter, is this unwelcome? I must rethink this.

[LonelyAtTheTop]

Your reply was kind at the heart of my post. I never really felt threatened. I imagined that maybe I could have been at risk or I would not have minded if the guy had not stopped at all so I wouldn't have to think about any risk real or imagined. In other words, at least the concept of situational awareness was not completely new to me thanks to lurking around here and a few other sites. No, I would not have drawn or shot if the gun had been on my person. In fact, I have made a deliberate decision not to seek CCL. Except for flat tires my life is mundane beyond description. And if it goes hand to hand I'm pretty much screwed due to other physical issues.

Somebody's sig line on this forum or one of the other gun forums was "Reading this board scares the hell out of me." I guess that what I was getting at. The situation could have gone bad and I did think of that possibility. But afterwards I thought about many of the scenarios discussed in these forums and few leave open the possibility that trouble does not hide behind every tree. I am not trying to be a troll or critical. You ask "Why all the fear?" In part because of the hypothetical and real life situations presented on these boards. When I actually experienced one it turned out extremely well and much differently than I might have expected. Just wanted to share that as well. Still I am glad for the knowledge and experiences available in these forums.

dawg23

La Hwy 10 between Franklinton and Bogalusa in Washington Parish (the tip of the boot.) Hard hit area during Katrina which was the real life scenario I also lived through that did turn me toward a search for more knowledge about weapons and personal defense in general. TFL has been a main source for that knowledge and I am grateful.

Still, that was some cold water. ;)

[Samurai]

Did I do OK?

You forgot the ninja smoke! And the backup weapon! And, where was the tactical thigh holster?

Seriously, though. Sounds to me like you were out in the world, and you met a nice dude who tried to help you out.

Your question ... is ... what? ... Should you have shot him? Probably not for offering to help you change a tire, and then driving to his house and back to bring you some water.

[W.E.G.]

Is it just me, or did anybody else wonder why a guy who has been a member for less than a month, and with only 4 posts puts something like this on the board?

I think there is a footnote in chapter 8 of the gun-board netiquette handbook that says you don't post a "how'd I do" lethal-force-scenario thread until you have at least been around long enough for the hound to get used to your scent.

[mattro]

When I was younger like in the 70s we would always stop and lend a hand to folks broke down. Is this unsafe nowadays? To offer aid? get shot? I dont get it at all. Why all the fear?

Last night a state trooper pulled over at 4pm to help a stranded motorist, the 21 year old motorist shot him in the chest and killed him.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/LOCAL/707060504

Yes times are different today, society is different. I hear stories that in my grandmother's era in Maryland motorist would pickup hitchhiking military men to give them rides to and from base; can you imagine your wife doing that in todays society?

I carry my main 1911 in a carry bag (bail out bag) wherever I go. Whenever in a situation that has a higher probability of a bad person taking advantage of circumstances, the gun immediately goes in my IWB holster on my hip. If I'm walking down a darkened street at night, firing an irate employee at work or changing a tire, I put it on.

I put it on when I change a tire. I put it on when I pull over to help someone change a tire.

I don't consider myself paranoid, I consider it smart in todays society to always be prepared to protect yourself and family. There are plenty of people with bad intentions looking for vulnerable situations.

[newarcher]

My buddy and I had this happen to us in downtown Atlanta. We hit something right in front of the stadium and my tire was flat by the time we hit Hapeville. I don't want to say that we stood out, but had white males been implicated of any crime...we would have been picked up inside of 10 minutes. It was snowing/sleeting/raining and the wind was blowing about 30 MPH. It was NASTY.

My buddy was standing there trying to keep me from getting wet with the umbrella while I changed the tire. It didn't work.

Anyway, a police cruiser pulled up and he turned on his lights (protocol I found out later). He asked if I was okay and I said yes. He highly suggested that I get that tire changed and get the heck out of there asap. He said it was a favorite tactic of the gangbangers in the area to bust up people who were changing tires.

I had my Clackamas Kimber on my hip so I thanked him for the heads up and said I was both well prepared in the event of trouble and that I was almost done, which I was. He went across the street and waited until we were done before he left.

New

[banditt007]

Newarcher, sounds like a good policeman to me!

[RedneckFur]

Some people arent BG's. Some just want to help. I think it would do us all good to relax a little.

Being on code red with your hand ready at your holster 24/7 may keep you alive, but its no way to live.

[eltorrente]

LOL some of you guys scare me. Take a breath of fresh air, and realize that most people don't want to harm you. There's a lot of quick draws with guns running around, on the edge, ready to pull it out as soon as a threat is perceived.

It's not as bad as that story I read here about the guy that decided not to get in his car and pull way, instead pulling a gun on some wacked-out guy that was talking smack to him. Man, I've had all sorts of confrontations/fights throughout my life and I either just blew them off, talked them down, or heck sometimes I just fought them. I can't imagine pulling a loaded gun at the first hint of a confrontation.

[workinwifdakids]

Again, allow me to reiterate:

A theory isn't good because it's true; a theory is good because it's uself.

Is it true that every person is bent on evil against you? No, but in certain circumstances it sure is a useful mindset.

[PJW001]

"Some people arent BG's. Some just want to help. I think it would do us all good to relax a little.
Being on code red with your hand ready at your holster 24/7 may keep you alive, but its no way to live."

I have to agree with redneckfur 200%, you did the best you could in a given situation, besides you did have the tire iron in your hands if necessary. Even if you did have your handgun IWB for instance and he did pull a firearm on you what would you have done...quick draw?

[Tanzer]

The only possible exception I might have is that when he approached, you might have stood up & greeted him rather than staying stooped down. It's friendly to begin with - not threatening, and it makes your tactical position better.

[mattro]

I have to ask, what if you had the pistol on your person? Would you have drawn? shot? Why are you so paranoid? Is it our society today?

That is a rediculous question. That is the type of question that dumbs down these discussions.

If you guys want to change a flat, or stop to help someone UNARMED, just so you can relax, live relaxed, and not seem paranoid - GO FOR IT.

I am relaxed, just prepared. I have too much to loose.

[jkp1187]

LOL some of you guys scare me. Take a breath of fresh air, and realize that most people don't want to harm you. There's a lot of quick draws with guns running around, on the edge, ready to pull it out as soon as a threat is perceived.

No one was suggesting he pop a cap in the guy's rear -- all I was saying was that in a situation like that, where I had a firearm in the car, and where I was getting help from a stranger (however nice he seems,) I'd prefer to have the firearm on my person at all times. I do not carry every day, but when I do, I believe that it is safer for all concerned for me to be physically carrying it, and not stuck in a glove compartment. Sounded like the OP was just asking for opinions on whether or not his actions were the best possible route he could have taken, and I think that those of us suggested it wouldn't have hurt to grab his revolver were just saying that that probably would have been the "optimal" strategy to take for personal security, even though things turned out just fine anyway.

If, for example, the stranger turned out to be a BG, no doubt the OP would have been wishing he'd had the firearm on his person. That's all.

[LonelyAtTheTop]

Just checking back in and as usual the feedback is about what I hoped for, balanced and varied according to one's perspective and mindset. I appreciate it.

W.E.G. PLease post a link for the so called gun board netiquette rules. Must have missed that one. I have been reading this board for over a year even though I only joined a month ago. Do I have to prove that to you somehow? The reason I risked a post is because this did happen to me and I found my interpretation of the event was influenced (positively) by my listening to the members who post here and on other boards. The reason I don't post more is that I don't know much at all about firearms and all the related issues to ownership and use. In other words, two eyes, two ears, one keyboard. But I'm learning more every day. Even from you. Is that scent coming through a little better for you now?

Got to go change the oil in the car now in the backyard. I'll ask the wife to provide suppressive fire in case things go downhill while I'm under the hood. :p

[Spade Cooley]

I have often stopped to render aid or obtain tools for a broken down vehicle or motorcycle in need. I'll think twice about it before I do it again. I don't want some jerk off thinking I'm trying to mug him.

[newarcher]

Well all keep in mind it goes both ways.

I will stop for women but not men...unless they are elderly men or something. I figure that most men will be equally capable or more capable than me. The only exception for men is if I see some guy trying to push a car out of traffic and I will.

I am leery of anyone who is going to stop and try to help me, especially if it is a man....I live in the State where Deliverance was filmed after all! :D

Any man stopping to help me is going to get a lot of extra caution attention from me.

New

[SatanzBountyHunter]

The only possible exception I might have is that when he approached, you might have stood up & greeted him rather than staying stooped down. It's friendly to begin with - not threatening, and it makes your tactical position better.

I agree with Tanzer. Not only is it polite, but you could hold the conversation as long as you need to to size up the man's intentions and catch your breath.

Country boys like myself will stop and help anyone that looks like a good person. I know that is hard to describe...but you all know one when you see them. Besides, a lot of times I stop to help them, not just because I am a 'good ol' boy', but because I don't want some evil do'er to stop instead.

LonelyattheTop, you did fine. Your good samaritan was probably wondering the same thing.

[Double Naught Spy]

Is it just me, or did anybody else wonder why a guy who has been a member for less than a month, and with only 4 posts puts something like this on the board?

I think there is a footnote in chapter 8 of the gun-board netiquette handbook that says you don't post a "how'd I do" lethal-force-scenario thread until you have at least been around long enough for the hound to get used to your scent.

Of course, this comes from W.E.G. who has a grand total of 42 posts and has been a member less than 4 months.

W.E.G., this was not a lethal force scenario thread. If time on the board was a critical component, then your vast time here would have allowed you to realize that, right? As for Chapter 8, there are some rules for TFL that you could review and none say anything about requiring time on the board to post queries.

How did you do LATT? One school of thought says you did fine because nothing bad happened. The other school says that you were caught off guard and when the guy approached, didn't do anything to greatly better your position and even turned your back on the guy. Next time, you will better know what to do.

[DeathRodent]

You were right to be nervous...many years ago I wouldn't have suspected anything but...

around 20 yrs ago - this fall - was the last ticket I received (i am very lucky with driving) - I attended the taffic safety school California offerred - at that time if you attended a safety class you recieved no points for the speeding ticket - anyway I will always remember the CHP that taught the class and one story in particular he told us.

Seems him and a partner pulled up to a car on the side iof the freeway and noticed a man climbing up from the embankment that sloped downwards. They thought he was moving in a kind of stumbling manner so they got out and questioned him - he wasn't drunk and was not cooperating - to make a long story short - he had a flat and was changing it when another car stopped and 2 guys got out and asked if he needed help. He said "no I got it handled" and turned around to the tire - next thing he remembers is waking up down below with his pants off - you can guess what happened.

This was 20+ years ago and in California but now its 2007 and I wouldn't turn my back on anybody.

Glad it worked out OK but its better to be safe.

[209]

It's sad that we have to worry about the motives of someone. But, in this day and age, we do. I subscribe to rule #5 in my list of Rules To Live By.

5. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

It doesn't mean you are always in code red. It simply means to assess every situation. If you use the basic senses we all have, you can usually figure out if you are a predator.... or if you are about to become prey.

I will usually stop to help a female who is broken down on the side of the road. I sometimes don't stop to help a guy. I've had mixed outcomes from stopping. Initially, the smart people are just a little bit worried about my intentions. They are the people who will probably not become a victim. IMO, they are the smart ones. The bubble-headed bleach blonde (sorry,but it is a good stereotype to emphasize my point) is likely to end up as a crime statistic. Pay attention to your surroundings. Don't be an easy mark. Alway assess the situation- if the hairs on your neck are standing up, you might be about to have a problem.

[SatanzBountyHunter]

He said "no I got it handled" and turned around to the tire - next thing he remembers is waking up down below with his pants off - you can guess what happened.

That's it...I'll drive on the rim until I get home.

[markj]

That is a rediculous question. That is the type of question that dumbs down these discussions.

If you guys want to change a flat, or stop to help someone UNARMED, just so you can relax, live relaxed, and not seem paranoid - GO FOR IT.


Life is full of choices, I choose to not live in fear, self induced especially. My question was valid, from the sound of his post I felt he was in fear, and might have done just that. I read these posts here and leave thinking there seems to be a lot of young guys that want violence so they can use their weapons on a living human. That scares me more than any BG, I know what to expect from a BG...

[W.E.G.]

My comment is based on my suspicious nature.

The idea that this flat-tire situation would implicate anything at all related to a lethal force issue, or that such a situation should induce a fearful reaction in any person of ordinary temperament makes me suspect that the question may be intended to elicit an inflammatory reaction by "gun nuts."

But, what would I know? Being such a newbie that I am. ;)

Glad you got your tire changed and a cool drink of water.

[mattro]

I read these posts here and leave thinking there seems to be a lot of young guys that want violence so they can use their weapons on a living human. That scares me more than any BG, I know what to expect from a BG...

Young guys? huh, I don't remember anyone mentioning their age. Nor has any advice here sounded immature. I am an accomplished professional and a father of 5. I imagine the rest of these gentlemen are not juveniles.

Just because I CCW into a convenient store does not mean I live scared. Just because we advocate that this guy would be safer if he CCW when changing a tire doesn't mean we live scared. It also doesn't mean we are looking for voilence or an excuse to use our guns.

I hate to bust your bubble, but just because I am packing doesn't mean I pull and shoot when someone looks or acts suspicious. If you don't know when to responsibly pull and shoot, you definetely should not CCW. I don't remember the last news article where a CCW pulled and shot soemone that wasn't warranted. If that is your mentality, I hope you do NOT ccw.

Asking if this guy would shoot the guy just because he stopped to help is absurd and shows complete ignorance regarding the responsibility of ccw. You are assuming because the guy is wondering if he should have been carrying a gun, that he would have been looking for a fight. That is how the anit-gun lobby thinks.

Also, Fear vs. cautious, not wanting to be a victim, are two entirely different things. I am in less fear when I am carrying because I feel I am MUCH less likely to become a victim.

You know what to expect from a bad guy?? You said a bad guy is more predictable than a CCW holder? Once again you're right inline with the anti-gun lobby (can you say Rosie O) That is like Rosie O saying Christians are far more dangerous than Muslims.

[SeanShot]

Not everyone's gonna kill you. Especially if they have an Australian accent (Teacher story). I think you were fine not reaching for the gun. Just don't get in his car, don't let him reach in any suspicious places, and don't let him have that strange creepy jumpy look.

[easyG]

If someone offers assistance, that's fine.
It shows that they are probably just a good samaritan.

But hanging around after you declined assistance...that's just a little suspicious.

[markj]

Asking if this guy would shoot the guy just because he stopped to help is absurd and shows complete ignorance regarding the responsibility of ccw.

Call it how you wish pard, the post made it sound as if he was fearing for his life and wanted a gun. Glad I live here and not by you. I have guns, shoot ever yweek, just helped a pard get his CCW in Nebr. There is a time to throw down, this wasnt it.

Feel better when you carry? I dont, the weight throws me off.

Most folk are younger than I, been around a long time, plan on being around longer, been shot once, stabbed once shot at a few times. Dont CCW, but a weapon is always close to hand.

Dont call me ignorant either. I try to give gun folk a good name, not scare anyone that might just happen to read these posts. Some of these sure do sound crazy.

[JunyTuck]

Double Naught Spy,
You recent post is blatantly discriminating against low post count participants! You high post count makes you smarter HOW? Maybe you just have more time on your hands. Just because someone has a low post count, doesn't equate to inexperience or ignorance. It means they are new to the forum. Your arrogance to new members is counterproductive to growing this forum in a positive way.

[chris in va]

It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves. Didn't used to be that way. Personally I can't stand to see someone on the side of the road trying to fix their car alone.

I don't think what happened should be a 'scenerio', but rather an opportunity to let someone help you.:rolleyes:

[Spade Cooley]

I'm in the country and if someone is parked with car trouble, I will drive up and ask from my vehicle if they need anything, water, tools, a phone for tow, etc. If they need help I try to assist. If they are OK, I move on. If they need to walk to my home to borrow something for their repair like a floor jack, thats fine too.

I think next time I better just give the guy the bird and move on so I don't get shot.

[mattro]

998 times out of a thousand it will be safe to help or be helped. But I always plan to defend myself and others. That way when the 2 out of a thousand happens, I (and others) have a better chance to defeat evil and prevail. For me I consider it a duty, not John Wayne, but a duty I am willing to accept.

[eltorrente]

Based on the posts of people pulling their gun because they were "threatened", I feel that many of those people are too quick to pull the guns and I see this over and over on this forum and others.

Heck, you can't even argue with someone anymore. If that guy has a ccw, there's a good chance he's gonna pull his piece on you if he feels intimidated in the least bit. You always hear about a fist-fight breaking out, then some clown pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy. :rolleyes:

If someone throws a punch at me, or pushes me in anger or something, he doesn't deserve to have a loaded gun leveled at his chest or killed. He would have to have a weapon and obviously about to use it on me in order for me to be threatened enough to pull my gun on him. I get the feeling that many ccw folks walk around scared to death of every guy that looks at him funny, and walking around on-the-edge, ready to pull it out at the slightest hint of trouble.

[jkp1187]

It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves. Didn't used to be that way. Personally I can't stand to see someone on the side of the road trying to fix their car alone.

Didn't used to be that way? No, thus it always has been, and thus it ever shall be!

Why have a weapon in the first place if you're not, on some level, concerned for your safety?

Until the date that Human nature changes, the responsibility of personal security will, and should, always be an important concern.

[easyG]

If someone throws a punch at me, or pushes me in anger or something, he doesn't deserve to have a loaded gun leveled at his chest or killed. He would have to have a weapon and obviously about to use it on me in order for me to be threatened enough to pull my gun on him.
I disagree.

Here's something to consider...

There is no such thing as a fair fight and there never was!
Unless the guy is ******* drunk he is not going to attack anyone who he thinks might kick his butt.
In other words...men assault those whom they are confident that they can beat.

And the only reason they might think that they can beat their opponent is if they have an advantage over that opponent...it might be strength, surprise, fighting skill, size or weight, an unseen weapon, or maybe even some friends nearby.
Keeping this in mind, only a fool will go toe-to-toe with someone who is physically aggressive toward them.


I'm just an average 40 year old guy.
And while I'm not in poor physical condition by any means, I'm not an UFC fighter either.
Why should I be expected to risk being beaten to death by someone bigger and stronger and faster than myself just because that person is unarmed?


I'm a radiologic technologist in a hospital and I image folks everyday who have been beaten.
And I can tell you with 100% certainty that an unarmed man is not to be taken lightly.

I've seen guys who were just kicked and punched, no weapons involved, who have suffered various injuries such as:
crushed facial bones, broken jaw, smashed teeth, broken ribs, collapsed lungs, ruptured testicles, ruptured bladders, ruptured eyeballs, hearing loss, crushed trachea, kidney damage, broken legs, broken arms, fractured skull, brain damage, spinal fractures, and nerve damage.

And they rack up enormous medical expenses often sending them in a downward spiral of debt that they will probably never get out of.
And many will require continuing physical therapy for the rest of their life.
And some no doubt will lose their job and the ability to support their family because of the damages they received.

If you want to risk that kind of damage simply because the other guy is unarmed then that's certainly your right.
But don't think less of those who are not willing to be someone else's punching bag.

[mattro]

If someone:
1. has the physical ability to harm me (not too weak or drunk or etc), and
2. they show me that they plan a physical fight with me that I cannot avoid

Then they are getting a gun pulled on them. Probably not shoot immediately, but it will be pulled. I don't have to subject myself to a beating, Noone has the right to inflict that on an innocent person.

I can see some punk getting a lucky punch and knocking me out cold, leaving my wife and/or kids to the mercy of the punk. For what??? So I can be show mercy to some puke that starting something against me and my family.

A verbal argument - No, of course you should not pull a gun. If you do, you should go to jail and loose your ccw license. But an unavoidable physical confrontation I did not solicit - I'm Pulling!

[eltorrente]

I disagree.

Here's something to consider...

There is no such thing as a fair fight and there never was!
Unless the guy is ******* drunk he is not going to attack anyone who he thinks might kick his butt.
In other words...men assault those whom they are confident that they can beat.

And the only reason they might think that they can beat their opponent is if they have an advantage over that opponent...it might be strength, surprise, fighting skill, size or weight, an unseen weapon, or maybe even some friends nearby.
Keeping this in mind, only a fool will go toe-to-toe with someone who is physically aggressive toward them.


I'm just an average 40 year old guy.
And while I'm not in poor physical condition by any means, I'm not an UFC fighter either.
Why should I be expected to risk being beaten to death by someone bigger and stronger and faster than myself just because that person is unarmed?


I'm a radiologic technologist in a hospital and I image folks everyday who have been beaten.
And I can tell you with 100% certainty that an unarmed man is not to be taken lightly.

I've seen guys who were just kicked and punched, no weapons involved, who have suffered various injuries such as:
crushed facial bones, broken jaw, smashed teeth, broken ribs, collapsed lungs, ruptured testicles, ruptured bladders, ruptured eyeballs, hearing loss, crushed trachea, kidney damage, broken legs, broken arms, fractured skull, brain damage, spinal fractures, and nerve damage.

And they rack up enormous medical expenses often sending them in a downward spiral of debt that they will probably never get out of.
And many will require continuing physical therapy for the rest of their life.
And some no doubt will lose their job and the ability to support their family because of the damages they received.

If you want to risk that kind of damage simply because the other guy is unarmed then that's certainly your right.
But don't think less of those who are not willing to be someone else's punching bag.

I totally agree - fists/feet/elbows/knees can be truly dangerous and in fact, as you know, people have been killed by single blows to the head.

Now that being said, I still would hold off as long as possible - after the fists started flying probably. I'd leave if I could, or stand my ground if I couldn't. I'd try to use intimidation or my fists to defend myself first. Now there's all sorts of scenarios that I can think of where this would be a bad choice, like if there's more than one guy or it's obvious he's planning on killing me with his bare hands and looks capable of it. I just can't imagine some guy laying there choking on his own blood, breathing his last breaths, while I'm standing above him with a just a good ole' black eye. I would feel horrible and would rather have a fat lip or maybe just some bruised knuckles instead.

Now obviously the older one gets, the more mismatched the altercation is likely gonna be, so of course it becomes more justified to pull it out. If someone went after my 80year old Grandpa, I'd sure hope he has a gun with him to protect himself.

[easyG]

Now that being said, I still would hold off as long as possible - after the fists started flying probably.
But by that time it could already be too late.

My old Drill Sgt had a saying...."You aint even gonna know I have a knife until I stick it in you".

What he meant was this:
Don't show that you have a knife or a sap or some other weapon before you use it, keep it secret until the last second.

So you might hold off in pulling your gun until the fists start flying, but the other guy might have a knife hidden in his hand and stab you on the first strike.
You might never get the chance to pull your pistol.


I just can't imagine some guy laying there choking on his own blood, breathing his last breaths, while I'm standing above him with a just a good ole' black eye.
If a guy indicates that he is going to physically attack you, and you draw your pistol and tell him to stop, the choice is his whether he gets shot or not.
If he makes the decision to continue the attack then he deserves what he gets.

[markj]

It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves

:) :) and he had a tire iron in his hand to remove the lug nuts and was scared of a unarmed guy as most here sound like they would be :)

Bunch of Nancy boys, turn yer testicles in at the door on yer way out girlymen :) this thread is just too funny for my old heart to take

Edith I'm coming (Sanford and son for all you youngins) :)

I belive every one is good at heart, I am starting to think some are not, and they are armed :(

Why have a weapon in the first place if you're not, on some level, concerned for your safety?

I hunt. Sometimes a cow needs to be put down or a horse. I like to target shoot, also hunt small animals with the .22 handgun.

Guns are not only for killing humans.

[easyG]

...and he had a tire iron in his hand to remove the lug nuts and was scared of a unarmed guy as most here sound like they would be
Most attackers appear unarmed....until they are attacking!

Edith I'm coming (Sanford and son for all you youngins)
BTW, Sanford's deceased wife was Elizabeth, not Edith.

Edith was Archie Bunker's wife (for all you youngins).;)

[markj]

BTW, Sanford's deceased wife was Elizabeth, not Edith.

Edith was Archie Bunker's wife (for all you youngins).

:) :) watched em both the other day on tvland :) tv isnt the same these days. Too violent, hmmmmm I wonder if that has anything to do with the way folks think today?

[anotherKevin]

I find it somewhat surprising that folks would suggest that getting in a physical fight is less than dangerous enough to respond with deadly force. Why are you so sure that if the other guy has the advantage on you, and beats you, he will actually stop once you are down?

In the course of history I've met a few dangerous, brawler types. One of them beat a guy, and put him down. Unbeknownst to him, the other fella got up and walloped him with some object and he nearly died at the hospital. After that he vowed he would never leave the other guy just down. He would continue until he couldn't get up again.