Cocked and locked baby!

[newarcher]

Tonight while walking my dog, I carried cocked and locked for the first time ever. No one died and I must admit that I felt great doing it. Carrying it with the hammer down in a half cocked position was how I usually do it and OF COURSE it is the safest! :D Just KIDDING. I always carried it with an empty chamber. Knowing that if the SHTF I would have a gun ready in 1-2 seconds was reassuring as was not having to worry about whether or not I could rack the slide in time.

I am going to get a fingertip safe and then leave it C&L. I have two kids and just don't feel it is safe enough with an 8 year old to do it C&L full time.

I will unload it when I come into the house and reload it when I leave for the day.

How cool is this cocked and locked thing! ;)

New

[RedneckFur]

If it makes you feel safer, then i guess its good for ya, but me personally, I dont trust ANY saftey that well.

[Lurper]

Welcome to the darkside! Letting go of baseless fears is always liberating.

[Gbro]

Do you have a sand pail to aim at when you load-n-unload every day?
One of the best things about a CCP is you don't have to handle/manipulate the gun so much.
I am a believer in numbers, the more you are in contact the more the chance of a problem. that just my .02

So if its all around safer for you to have your defensive weapon at Con. 3 you will probably be better off staying there. Remember when its time to react, you will most likely default to what you do most or train to.

[Tanzer]

It takes very little time to rack a slide and it shows the BG you mean business. Of course, If you find yourself stranded in the combat zone or down at the docks at midnight... well.... I guess it depends on the situation. I wouldn't be locked and loaded at my sister's wedding, but when I take the dogs to shore at night (we live on our sailboat in the summer) that's what I do too.

[parrothead2581]

I will unload it when I come into the house and reload it when I leave for the day.

Just remember not to rechamber that same round more than once or twice.

[DGindlesperger]

Yep, locked and loaded is the "SAFEST" way to carry.

[chris in va]

Which gun is this?

[easyG]

I guess it depends upon where you live and the odds of needing to shoot quickly.
If you live in a nice neighborhood and you're not a cop, I really don't see the need to carry locked-and-cocked.
And with a child in the house I just think it's a bad idea.
All it takes is for you to be forgetful just ONCE.

[kayakersteve]

Parrothead What is wrong with recycling the same round??? Are you not doing that if you reload your own ammo anyhow?? Thanks, SteveB

[ilikesa]

It causes the round to sit to deep in the brass, causing high pressures. I agree with an above poster, the less you fool with it, the better off you are. I keep all my guns loaded and cocked at home, that way, I never have to worry thinking "is this one loaded?"

[RocketFoot]

I carry on an empty chamber. I look at it this way...step one is pulling your weapon on a BG. Step two is racking the slide. If that doesn't send him packing, step three is aim & fire!

I do agree, however...if you live in a rough neighborhood, locked and loaded is the way to go. (My neighborhood ain't so bad...)

[tegemu]

There are THREE safeties with Cocked and Locked on a 1911. The thumb safety, the grip safety and the keep your cotton pickin finger off of the trigger.

[newarcher]

Right all.

I am thinking of it this way....probably my greatest chance of getting jacked is at a drive up ATM or in my car (since I spend more time in my car than out...thanks Atlanta traffic).

In my car, I have to open the center console (not a movement that is in any way fluid), somehow pull the gun out of the holster which is tight, rack the slide, aim, and fire. This is likely to be happening when someone has the strategic advantage of being able to move around and while I am trying to make haste and get out of there. Not enough hands.

Smart idea on the ammo.

Here's another...probably dumb question....why can't I take the round out of a magazine and drop it into the chamber and then manually let the slide down? I thought that would work but the slide won't close completely....designed that way?

New

[Spade Cooley]

I assume you are talking about a 1911 style of pistol, Buy another pistol for carry that is DAO or where the first shot is DA. Even a revolver would be safer.

Next step is to train your children. Take all curiosity out of the gun. Let them handle it, shoot it and explain what it can do. As a former LEO, I had a loaded gun around the house for 25 years without a problem. I worked on a Dept. 7,000 strong and the rest of them had loaded guns around the house. I never heard of an accident involving a loaded gun. Any time they want to know anything about the gun, get it out, unload it, and let them handle it. Show them from the time they are big enough to hold it how firearms are dangerous and how to handle them.

[newarcher]

I do let both my 8 year old boy and my 4 year old girl handle the gun and even pull the trigger if they like (after quardruple checking the gun is unloaded). I wouldn't say that they have an enormous fascination with the guns. But you never know.

I took my son to a range and let him shoot an old, cheap 22 pisol I had and it had a really bad tolerance that let powder hit his hand. So he doesn't want to shoot any more handguns right now...but accidents happen.

Yes, it is a 1911 model and I wouldn't agree that something like a Glock would be safer. But that's me. Glocks and many other similar DAO or DAF guns don't prevent anyone from picking it up and yanking off a round. At least with the 1911, they have to defeats more than 1 safety.

New

[JoeBlackSpade]

Even though we probably don't have any sympathy for a would -be assailant, I don't think any sane person is actually LOOKING for a chance to whack someone. Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush. If you do things right, the display of confidence you exhibit, as well as the display of the weapon and the sound of chambering a round will dissuade anyone thinking about making you his midnight snack.

By racking your slide, you create that unmistakeable metal on metal sound, informing your attacker that you mean business.

Racking the slide takes a fraction of a second if you are training at the range this way.

I would take the top round in your magazine and rotate it after each "walk".

I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.



newarcher, I'd have to agree with you. The ATM is a very likely mugging scenario. Your best ally there is vigilance. Scan the area thoroughly before pulling up to draw cash.

[newarcher]

JoeBlack,

I once thought like you and then really started thinking about it.

Most incidents happen at arms length and are generally a surprise attack of some sort...or else most incidents would happen at 20 feet or more.

While it really does only take a fraction of a second to rack the slide, you may already be 3 seconds in the hole to the bad guy before you have an opportunity to take that chance.

I wore my CDP with it cocked and locked (with no round in the chamber) for some time .... same with my Tactical Custom II...and never once have I had the hammer drop unexpectedly.

Someone asked about a sand bucket and no I don't have one. I just aim it at the ground in the back yard when unloading it.

Lastly, I am certainly not looking for a fight and definitely wouldn't ever want to harm anyone. HOWEVER.....the statistics don't lie. If I ever do have to employ my gun in battle, the overwhelming odds are that I am NOT going to have a chance to rack the slide before I am dead/injured.

New

[Creature]

IMO carrying a 1911 other than in Condition 1 is limiting it's capability foolishly.

Condition 3 is more of a liability than a safety issue. The locked and cocked argument has been done to death...the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1 and is completely safe in that condition...it is also the quickest method of employment.

The way I see it, the probablity of my other hand being used or otherwise occupied is very high. That is why I would ONLY carry my 1911 cocked and locked. The expectation that I will have two free hands in order to get my gun in firing condition is a presumption that I am not willing to risk.

This notion of the sound of "metal on metal" is IMO not nessassary and not worth the time it wastes in order to engage the threat. When I draw my weapon, it is to employ it...not use it as a "suggestion".

[monkeyboy]

If you do any scenario work, if you understand the ranges that shootings occur at, you will realize how truly time sensitive they can be.

When you are in condition 3 you need extra time and you need to have a free hand. Any one that tells me how they can do a one handed rack under duress 100% of the time has never had to do it. When it hits the fan, one hand is busy, your heart is pumping, you are wearing the wrong clothes, you are carrying your crappiest defense weapon and murphy has thrown in a few other things.

Condition 3 is safe for you and the bad guy.

Loading and unloading your pistol is exponentially increasing your chances of an AD.

Load it and leave it in a gun vault when its not on you.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Creature, carrying your weapon with a round in the chamber isn't necessary unless you are doing a TACTICAL ENTRY to serve a high risk warrant.


For me, its not about safety, its about using the weapon to defend yourself in the proper level of escalation.

A knife-wielding thug will likely be scared off by the ratcheting sound a slide makes when you chamber a round.

Carrying the piece with a round in the chamber certainly increases your readiness, by a fraction of a second, however, a street confrontation isn't likely to be over in a fraction of a second, unless your assailant has presented a loaded firearm- for whatever reason- BEFORE you were able to get to yours.

The key here is vigilance- and maybe a little street smarts. By street smarts, I'm not talking about being able to read subtle body language a half a mile away. I'm talking about staying out of situations where a gun fight will be likely.

[newarcher]

Joe,

I think you are being a little naive in your thinking.

I would guarantee you that 90% or better of all muggings, stabbings, hold ups, etc. happen in a fraction of a second with only milliseconds to react.

The bad guys don't wear signs nor do they annonce their intentions (usually). No, they mill in nice and close to you and then it is over. Every second counts.

Now if I am walking in town, say walking the dog and I see someone coming my way I will adjust some way. I will give them a wide berth and if they adjust in kind, my radar goes up. Then I would make some evasive manouver before they got within striking distance.

However, say I am in any given City on a sidewalk, I can't do that to everyone. Crap happens in a fraction of a second, which is why I plan on carrying my gun C&L going forward.

But to each their own, not trying to tell you that you are wrong. However, most crime victims all say the same thing....they either never suspected him or never saw him coming.

New

[Mr. James]

Well, as some wag put it long ago, if we could predict when we'd be subject to attack we'd arrange to be somewhere else. We aren't always afforded that luxury, no matter how finely honed our situational awareness. Sometimes trouble finds us.

Creature put it best. One, the 1911 was designed to be carried this way. Two, I'm not willing to blithely assume I'll have a free and functioning hand to work the slide. I may be shoving a kid under a car or trying to fend off the assailant, or I may be wounded, and playing hell just getting the weapon out of the holster.

Just one man's opinion and approach. Ah, well, more than one man's, I see.

[Creature]

JoeBlackSpade, have you ever heard of the "21 ft rule"?

If not, perhaps you should research it. I believe that Condition 3 carry would put that rule out to about 35-40ft...maybe more.

Saying that Condition 1 carry is only for a tactical entry...and that racking a gun will scare off a knife-wielding attacker, is pretty narrow minded. You will be lucky to see a knife in a mugging before it is being used to strike you.

And assuming that you will have both hands free...well I know what happens when I assume.

[parrothead2581]

kayaker,
Like an above poster stated, recycling the same round more than a couple of times can cause it to set back. This can lead to excessive pressure and, well, you can guess the rest.

Try drawing and racking and see just how long it takes to get the gun into action. Triple check that it's empty and have a friend advance toward you at a moderate then quick pace. The results may surprise you.

[Lurper]

THis subject has been beaten to death. Yet I am still amazed at the attitude of some.

I carry on an empty chamber. I look at it this way...step one is pulling your weapon on a BG. Step two is racking the slide. If that doesn't send him packing, step three is aim & fire!
Except step one for the bad guy is to shoot you. If you carry an unloaded pistol, you have a very fancy, expensive brick. Typically when you need a pistol to defend yourself, time is at a premium. If you are not comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, carry something else.

Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush. If you do things right, the display of confidence you exhibit, as well as the display of the weapon and the sound of chambering a round will dissuade anyone thinking about making you his midnight snack.

Nothing personal Joe, but what are you smoking? A firearm should never be used as a deterrent. It should only be used (drawn or displayed) when someone is in danger of serious injury or death. In the time it takes you to exhibit the confidence you are so proud of, then chambering a round, a BG can put a couple of rounds your way.

By racking your slide, you create that unmistakeable metal on metal sound, informing your attacker that you mean business.
You also create the unmistakeable opportunity for the BG to shoot you.

Racking the slide takes a fraction of a second if you are training at the range this way.
That fraction is on the order of 1/2. That is long enough for a shooter of intermediate abilty to fire 2 rounds. In a defensive situation, the ability to put lead on the target quickly is the single most important skill.

I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Tactically unsound and unneccessary. You aren't saving any "wear and tear" on the springs, you are only limiting your round capacity. Modern magazine springs can be left loaded for extended periods (years) without any negative effect.

Loading/unloading the gun every day is not unsafe. If you follow the 4 basic safety rules, you will be fine.

If you aren't comfortable carrying cocked and locked, you should give serious consideration to carrying a different firearm or maybe not at all.

[kayakersteve]

Lurper -
Great summation - Sounds like great advice.

[newarcher]

Not beating the joe up, because I once thought like he did.

My decision came for me from watching Under Fire, a show on CourtTV which shows actual police encounters where they have been fired on and fired back in response. Most were surprises and most of the time the cop was hit before he could even draw on the suspect.

My wife actually mentioned the fact that had I been the cop, I wouldn't have time to rack the slide and I thought "you are darned right!".

I was also amazed at the ability of some of these perps to run away, holding their pants up with one hand, evading fire all the while, and returning what seemingly is a very impressive hit ratio to shots fired. They may be dumb as hell but they can shoot pretty well. It amazes me that a perp with a J frame can hit and kill an officer who is behind a car but a couple squad cars worth of police can't manage to hit the perp, despite shooting several times each.

I think that we CCWr's are sometimes guilty of thinking that any situation where we have to shoot someone will be a controlled situation where we have plenty of time and ability to rationalize and react. I think we also subconsciously believe that the target will stand still and remain at a 20 foot range. None of this could be farther from the truth of course.

Bottom line, cocked and locked is safe (excluding the ammo problem) and isn't going to be the reason I die. I will, of course, have to take extreme precautions to make sure of no ND on unloading or loading.

New

[random_alias]

You can't easily drop the slide on a chambered round with a 1911 because the 1911 is designed for the lip of the round to slide up from the magazine and enter behind the hook on the extractor. The round is attached to the extractor by the pressure of the extractor hook on the lip of the round and the extractor is attached to the slide in such a way that the round and the slide move forward together and the round is chambered as everything comes into battery.

If you place a round in the barrel chamber and try to drop the slide over that round, the extractor hook has to force itself around and over the lip of the round. This stresses the extractor in a way that it was not designed for and can break the extractor or prevent the slide from completely closing. Some guns are designed to be able to load a single round without the magazine in this manner, some are not. The 1911 was not.

As for racking the slide during a confrontation...There's a lot of discussion about the effectiveness of this in a real life situation...is it really a deterrent...will you have two hands free at the time....I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment. Under stress, you may not pull the slide completely back since you are feeling rushed...this can cause a jam or misfeed. Also, Murphy's Law. The whole point of CCW is having AT LEAST one guaranteed round to fire. Having to chamber a round at that very important moment increases your physical and the gun's mechanical movements and actions...thus increasing the likelihood of a failure to fire.

[Duxman]

Condition 3 is safe for you and the bad guy.

Loading and unloading your pistol is exponentially increasing your chances of an AD.

Hmmm. Last time I checked - I am not worried about the BG's safety. In fact that is the least of my concerns. My family and personal safety are paramount.

As long as you properly obey at all times - firearm safety rules - keep your finger off the trigger UNTIL your sights are on target - your chances of AD are nil.

Training is the key to zero ADs.

Hooch in BHD: This is my safety sir......

[parrothead2581]

Hmmm. Last time I checked - I am not worried about the BG's safety

I think that monkeyboy was being a bit sarcastic in his statement concerning condition 3 and it's safety for you and the bad guy. It gives the BG extra time to do you harm, making it safer for him.

But maybe I'm wrong.

[JoshB]

I think that we CCWr's are sometimes guilty of thinking that any situation where we have to shoot someone will be a controlled situation where we have plenty of time and ability to rationalize and react. I think we also subconsciously believe that the target will stand still and remain at a 20 foot range. None of this could be farther from the truth of course.

I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment.

Some very good points.

It's hard to prepare for an encounter b/c you don't know who/what/when/where/why or how. That leaves you to do what you can to mitigate the perceived threat. Carrying locked & cocked does it for me most of the time. A back-up revolver, flashlight & knife help, but sometimes you just have to make due with what you're comfortable carrying.
There have been plenty of times at the range where I let the slide go and it either jammed or didn't chamber a round. I certainly would not want this to happen in a SD situation.

[Creature]

Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush.
I would say if you are pulling you CH, you have already been "ambushed" by a BG...you will be lucky if you can say you were merely "confronted".

The biggest concern is as random alias pointed out: As for racking the slide during a confrontation...There's a lot of discussion about the effectiveness of this in a real life situation...is it really a deterrent...will you have two hands free at the time....I don't hear near as much discussion on one very important aspect of this method...who's to say that the gun won't jam at that very moment.

As for downloading the mag by a few rounds: I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Modern springs do not "wear out" from constant compression. They wear out from constant and repeated compression and decompression.

[woodland]

I guess it depends upon where you live and the odds of needing to shoot quickly.
If you live in a nice neighborhood and you're not a cop, I really don't see the need to carry locked-and-cocked.


Because things happen slower in good neighborhoods than bad? Does that mean that if a nice house burns down you have more time to get out than if it's a dump of a house? I guess I just don't understand this logic. Your surroundings can have no effect on how fast a specific incident is going to unfold. Once it starts happening your location becomes completely irrelevent.

[Spade Cooley]

I stand on what I said before and say the 1911 in any condition is too slow for any emergency. If it's taking a safety off or racking the slide, you will be dead meat before you can fire. The packing of a simple pistol where all you have to do is draw and pull the trigger is what you want. In emergencies people get shook up and forget to take the safety off or rack a slide. It all takes too long. Draw and pull the trigger is the only answer.

[JoeBlackSpade]

I respect your views guys, I really do.

I guess I was trained to think a little differently.

I DO agree that one can safely carry a 1911 that way.

I just don't agree that it is necessary.

Let's take the "knife-wielding looney" out of the equation. Lets' say there are 3 big guys coming right at you after initially milling about close by. In this case, I'm drawing and racking my slide, taking aim at the closest, and giving clear verbal commands. In low light conditions this is the best thing you can do. The combination of ratchet-sound, and clear verbal commands will establish dominance. That ratchet sound WILL discourage just about anybody that isn't doped up or out of their mind on meth, etc., and it might be that extra "oomph" needed due to low light- when verbal commands just won't do it by themselves.

Thing is, I feel C&L is just not necessary. If an assailant is going to close in THAT fast, then a round in the chamber won't make a difference. IMHO, one should train to go from Condition 3, holstered to 2 rounds center mass in less than 2 seconds. A thug closing in faster than that, with clear intent to harm is unlikely, but can be repelled with a straight (or slightly upwards-directed) palm-heel to the chest/chin, using your weak/non-draw/free hand. The straight palm-heel strike gets an extra meter between your assailant and your weapon, and is combined with BLADING your body away from the attacker. This puts not only your extended arm between your attacker and your weapon, but this also puts YOUR OWN BODY between the attacker and your weapon. With practice, you can train to fire from this position, with your weapon virtually resting high on your pectoral muscle, elbow cocked way back. This was standard weapons-retention training for me as a Marine, and is also taught to Maryland State Police, United States Park Police SWAT, and others in the same way.

The idea of one hand being occupied in an unexpected grapple with a thug-and therefore unavailable to cycle the slide- is a genuine and respectable concern. Personally I have confidence in being able to do what I need to do to get a round off if needed, whether I have a hand free or not. One could (and should) not only practice chambering drills, with one arm behind the back, weak-arm operation of their firearm, as well as standard strong-arm operation, and that includes drills on what to do in the event of failure to fire/failure to feed/stovepipes, etc.

I know a few drills for single handed chambering, if anyone is interested.

As I always say, practice practice practice.

Much of the fear/apprehension about being able to handle yourself in the event of a gunfight will be alleviated by practice and training.

[JoeBlackSpade]

"Carrying your weapon should be looked at as a deterrent, not an ambush. If you do things right, the display of confidence you exhibit, as well as the display of the weapon and the sound of chambering a round will dissuade anyone thinking about making you his midnight snack."

"Nothing personal Joe, but what are you smoking? A firearm should never be used as a deterrent. It should only be used (drawn or displayed) when someone is in danger of serious injury or death."

No disagreement there- at least in a general sense. What I think we've been talking about is the process of going past that point. It's in that strange, funky escalation of tension in an encounter, where the threat is gathering- and building. What I believe is not being considered is that an encounter on the streets will not be a neat, tidy event that fits a textbook definition. It's not bad guy pops out of the bushes, and *boom*, I pop him. There's an escalation of force involved in most street encounters. Somewhere in that escalation, there should be verbal commands, placing your hand on your (holstered) weapon, more verbal commands, drawing and going to condition one, etc.



"In the time it takes you to exhibit the confidence you are so proud of, then chambering a round, a BG can put a couple of rounds your way."

True, if you're getting held up at gunpoint, in which case condition 1 won't make much difference than cond. 3. That becomes a race between you (drawing, acquiring sight picture, and squeezing off a round) and your mugger's trigger finger. In such an instance, only your brains are going to get you out alive, and the fact that you have a round in the chamber can do nothing except give you a false sense of security.



Quote:By racking your slide, you create that unmistakable metal on metal sound, informing your attacker that you mean business.

"You also create the unmistakable opportunity for the BG to shoot you."

Again, that's in the case your assailant is holding you at gunpoint. Obviously, drawing your weapon on someone holding you at gunpoint-in 99% of cases- will get you shot. In such cases, cond.1 vs. cond.3 won't make a bit of difference. I'm talking about the multitude of other cases (read: more likely) where your concealed piece can save your life, i.e., knifepoint, faced with an assailant brandishing an improvised weapon, or numerically superior assailants. In such cases, I'm drawing, racking my slide and taking aim. Just because you draw does NOT mean you have to shoot.

Quote:
Racking the slide takes a fraction of a second if you are training at the range this way.

That fraction is on the order of 1/2. That is long enough for a shooter of intermediate abilty to fire 2 rounds. In a defensive situation, the ability to put lead on the target quickly is the single most important skill.

Again, if you are being held AT GUNPOINT, sure, he can squeeze off 2 rounds while you draw, rack, sight in, sqeeze off your rounds. And like I said before, the fact that you have a round in the chamber on your hip won't make a bit of difference. If you go for the "quick-draw" while someone's muzzle is in your face, you're taking a huge risk regardless of whether you're carrying Cond. 1 or Cond. 3.

Quote:
I would also only load 75% of capacity in the magazine to save wear and tear on the springs.
Tactically unsound and unneccessary. You aren't saving any "wear and tear" on the springs, you are only limiting your round capacity. Modern magazine springs can be left loaded for extended periods (years) without any negative effect.


I disagree with that statement. Maxing out the capacity of your magazines, and storing ammunition that way is not only bad for your springs, but it can also create a dangerous situation. If you constantly carry your mags fully loaded, and then you one day have to empty that mag, you're more likely to face a failure to feed while trying to fire the last few rounds in that mag, and possibly a misfeed in the 1911, as well as many other "modern" weapons, including any Pre-ban mag, i.e. the 15 rounder in a 92FS. These are problems you wouldn't face if the springs in the mag are new, and still have their full tension. A magazine at full capacity should be discharged or have the rounds removed while in storage if you want to not only maximize the life of the springs, but also decrease your chances of failure to fire/feed. I've shot thousands of rounds through the M9 (92FS), 1911, my .40 and .45 Ruger, a Glock 17 & 19, and other small weapons over the years. A weakened spring in any of the mags can, and has (on exceptionally rare occasion- admittedly) led to misfeeds.


If you aren't comfortable carrying cocked and locked, you should give serious consideration to carrying a different firearm or maybe not at all.

I don't know if that comment was directed at me, or not, but I never said anything about "comfort", nor did I reference safety as a concern. In fact, I explicitly stated that I'm not worried about safety on this class of weapon, and carrying it C&L. My position is that it is unecessary if you are training properly, unless you are a law enforcement officer, or work under environments where you'd have to minimize the time from drawing to firing. An example of this type of person might be a State Trooper, Sheriff, etc. For the safety conscious citizen, walking through the waterfront district, etc., I believe you don't need a round in the chamber.

[revjen45]

The 1911 was designed to be carried in Cond 1. In the safe position the safety blocks the hammer from making contact with the firing pin shoud the impossible happen and something holding the hammer back breaks. In Cond 3 you are taking the chance (however small) that the first round may not feed properly. In Cond 1 that 1st round is up the spout and ready to go. I have seen the idea that the sound of racking the action will cause the BG to immediately wet his knickers and depart at warp speed beaten to death in shotgun threads. I don't carry a gun to scare people. If I need a gun to defend my life I need every round it will carry. It can be argued whether there is time to feed the first round and give verbal commands and otherwise dither in face of deadly threat, but if my life is in danger the time for talking or scaring the BG is past- it's time to present and fire. For the record I carry a Steyr S9, but for those times when I carry a .45 I go cocked and locked (ref. Psalm 1911).

[Dave R]

Condition 3 is more of a liability than a safety issue. The locked and cocked argument has been done to death...the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1 and is completely safe in that condition...it is also the quickest method of employment. Amen, bro.

Think about this: a DAO pistol with a safety, and one in the tube, is also "cocked and locked." A Glock with one in the tube is cocked and UN-locked. That is the only thing I don't like about Glocks.

[newarcher]

Well, I am going to think about things like this.

I can think of nothing worse than going up against a police officer who is trained well in both tactics, training, and how to get the upper hand. Yet punks go up against cops all the time. Cops have their guns loaded and ready to use every second of every day. I don't think that if punks will take on a cop, the racking of my slide will change anything. I think that while I am racking, the punk will be shooting. That's the nature of punks. Maybe you get lucky and happen to get the unmotivated criminal that will scare easily. The fact of their behavior tells me that they won't.

I am not going to nock anyone for carrying any way they want...perhaps despite the half-cocked position with one in the chamber!

I think that Condi 1 is best for me now and just as safe.

New

[newarcher]

Right on DaveR.

I am not knocking Glocks but people will run around with one in the chamber and not think anything of it. Yet all it takes is a pull of the trigger to discharge.

At least the 1911 has two safeties plus the trigger to keep it from firing.

JMHO.

New

[Lurper]

I stand on what I said before and say the 1911 in any condition is too slow for any emergency. If it's taking a safety off or racking the slide, you will be dead meat before you can fire.
Yeah, so I guess the sub 1 second draws with "A" hits is too slow. I could probably shave some time off if I didn't have to disengage the safety. :rolleyes:
1911's C&L are no slower than any other weapon. Just think how fast and good all the pros would be if they would just switch from 1911's to something else.

Joe:
Not every threat builds. Not every situation gives you time to rack the slide or even give commands. Many times, the only thing you have time to do is draw and fire. Carrying a weapon in any condition other than ready for immediate use is like not carrying any weapon at all.

Condition 1 vs condition 3 is a huge difference. Way fewer steps are involved deploying from cond. 1 (read fewer chances for Mr. Murphy's interference). It takes far less time which can translate to more distance between you and the BG (always a good thing). Outdrawing somone holding you at gunpoint can and has been done (won't do it in cond. 3 though), but more importantly is the time it buys you. If your assailant is closing the distance between you, having to rack the slide gives him a free half second. That means the average person can close the distance by about 7 ft. (Tueller 21ft in 1.5 seconds). If the encounter starts at 10 feet, you now have a much more serious problem. Trying to move off line while racking the slide introduces many varibles that aren't there if you move offline in cond. 1. What they are armed with is immaterial. If they have a gun; you have just given them time to take a couple of shots, a knife; time to close and attack, a brick; time to throw or close and attack. If the situation unfolds slowly, you could argue that there is time to rack the slide. However, that is not always the case.

As for the magazine springs, we'll have to agree to disagree. I have magazines that I have left loaded for extended periods of time that are just as reliable now as they were when they were new several years and several hundreds of thousands of rounds ago.

[Spade Cooley]

I guess there is no use. Fumbling for a safety or racking a pistol slide when the du du hits the fan is a bad idea. Whats wrong with a DAO pistol that is simple and all you have to do is pull the trigger to make it happen. Either a first shot double action auto or DAO Glock, even a revolver is a much better way to go. When you watch scariest shootouts on TV the cops are walking up to a vehicle and they don't have time to react even when they have the right weapon, Jacking with slides or safeties in a shoot out or a surprise robbery will never work. You want the gun ready to fire when you need it and want to pull the trigger. It will not go off unless you pull the trigger, period. But that is what you want to happen.

[Lurper]

Spade
It's all in how you train. I guarantee I can shoot a 1911 faster than 95% can shoot a da or dao. If you train to take the safety off, you will take the safety off. It doesn't slow you down. Plus, you get a better trigger on a single action auto than you will get on any other type of action. Again, if it was so bad why do all the pros use the 1911? I don't have to watch the scariest shootouts to understand. BTDT

You are correct however in saying that you don't want to have to rack the slide.

[ilikesa]

Joe...why not just rack the slide with a round already in the chamber, if you think that will establish dominance. Take it from a former cop, you DON'T have time. People attack police officers, who they KNOW to be armed. People can be nuts! You have to plan for the worst scenario and be thankful if it's not that bad.

You mentioned "good neighborhood" too. Well, bad people have cars, and "good neighborhoods" usually have money, jewelry, and valuable electronics. Where would you go?

Im not trying to beat up on you, but your logic is flawed. Better safe than sorry.

As to the 1911 cocked and locked, go for it. Lots of people have done it, and continue to do it.

[Creature]

JoeBlackSpade wrote:
I guess I was trained to think a little differently.

I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?

Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.

I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.

[Spade Cooley]

"Yet all it takes is a pull of the trigger to discharge"

That is exactly what you want to happen. I will not be pulling the trigger unless I have to. But when I do I don't want any interference from anything. Its happened hundreds of times where the armed citizen has been squeezing nothing but mush hoping the pistol would go off and nothing happened. In an emergence we tend to forget.

[crankshop1000]

I stand on what I said before and say the 1911 in any condition is too slow for any emergency. If it's taking a safety off or racking the slide, you will be dead meat before you can fire. The packing of a simple pistol where all you have to do is draw and pull the trigger is what you want. In emergencies people get shook up and forget to take the safety off or rack a slide. It all takes too long. Draw and pull the trigger is the only answer.

The 1911 is still the premier combat pistol that all are trying to equal. A 1911 in the hands of someone who knows how it is designed to operate will have an advantage over anything else out there.Thumbing the safety while drawing and the first shot single action is unbeatable.Sorry to sound harsh, but you don't know what you are talking about if you believe that a 1911 is slow.Chuck.

[JoeBlackSpade]

I gotta ask...did any of those agencies...or the US Marine Corps for that matter, teach you to carry in anything other than condition 1 while on patrol?

Anyway, if you feel safer carrying in Condition 3...have at it. If magazine loaded to 75% makes you feel better, knock yourself out. If you think you can blade with a tango drawing on you, more power to you. If you are confident that multiple tangos in the dark...while you are moving...is no problem, right on.

I know that for me, it's C&L and 7+1 for my carry 1911.


Going on patrol with the Marines is not the same as walking your dog.

Of course, going on patrol, your weapon is locked and loaded- but you are EXPECTING to engage. You are LOOKING for the enemy, actively searching for them, or expecting to counter an ambush, etc. You are talking to other assets that might have spotted the targets you are TRYING to engage. Walking down the streets of America, there's little comparison. Hell, I remember stumbling drunk through the meanest streets of Washington D.C. near "8th and I" when I was stationed there, in little more than a t-shirt and a bottle of Jack Daniels in me- at 4:30 a.m., just trying to get back in time for morning P.T. Big difference between even our meanest streets and Fallujah.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have that much adrenaline, and intensity when I'm walking my dog in Lake Mary, FL.



You guys each have your own areas of expertise, and I truly do respect that as I mentioned earlier, but a few of you make me nervous, like you'd be more comfortable in the Old West, where anything more than a mouse fart will get you drawing on a tango down Main Street. Realistically, I'm going to anticipate a level of escalation in most confrontations.

The way I see it, there's only 2 ways a gunfight is going to go down on the streets:

a.) Less than lethal threat graduates to lethal threat with some level of warning.

>>>During such an escalation, I will have the ability to draw down, chamber a round, etc.

b.) Total surprise situation with a baseball bat to the head, or a thug with a pistol pops out from behind the bushes, aiming his weapon at me. He's got his muzzle to my face before I know what happens-
>>>In such a case, having a round in the chamber isn't going to help me one bit. Knowing that I have a round in the chamber might even sway my decision to draw when perhaps I really shouldn't. Those of you that think you're quick enough to draw when someone has a muzzle in your face, good luck with that. I'm a super-quick summammabich, but I'm not going for it unless the sun, the moon and the planets align, and the Spirit of the Lord gives me a gentle nudge to go for it.

Creature, I think you might be running my comments all together, and out of order, and they kinda' lose their context if you do that. I'm not talking about moving, blading, palm-heeling, ninja-rolling, and taking down multiples at night. I'm talking about the way it goes down in the street. Mugger comes walking with his buddy towards you at 3 a.m., asking "what- up- man", or "what time you got". My hand goes to my piece- but I don't draw down. My comments are something like "you got 3 seconds to get the **** outta here".

REAL LIFE SITUATION:
My father (58 years old, former Ranger) was driving through downtown Miami a few years ago in a rental vehicle. As is a common tactic, a car full of scum-bags rear-ended my father's car at low speed, while he was momentarily stopped at a stop sign. He saw the 3 or 4 guys moving around inside, and knew he'd likely be a victim. In a split second, he jumped out of the car, shoved his hand inside his jacket (LIKE HE WAS GOING FOR HIS WEAPON) and raised his free hand out, palm up, Al Pacino style. "What's up?" he was yelling to the guys. They spun their 20-inch rims, and drove off, cursing my dad, but not ready for a gunfight. He bluffed his way out, got back in his car, and left.

Not only did he NOT have a round in the chamber, he didn't have a piece, period. My point is that the credible threat of force is just as effective as force in most cases. While I'm certain he was lucky this time, its also important to note that this happened during a period of time in FL (recent) history where a number of Canadians, Europeans, and northerners were bumped like this, carjacked and subsequently KILLED in an identical set-up.

Carrying concealed is not the same as Marines on patrol, or a State Trooper flagging someone on I-95 with shifty characters behind the wheel. Unless you guys are walking the strip through bar-country with your pieces at 3:30 a.m. Then, yeah, I might chamber a round.

Just walking down by the beach in the afternoon, or whatnot, there's no way I need a round in the chamber in Wal Mart.

And I hope I never accidentally step on any of you guys' toes in Denny's at midnight. The way some of you guys talk, you've got trigger-pulls lighter than the 6-oz. sirloin.

[michael t]

In this case, I'm drawing and racking my slide, taking aim at the closest, and giving clear verbal commands. In low light conditions this is the best thing you can do. The combination of ratchet-sound, and clear verbal commands will establish dominance.

You live in never never land with Peter Pan. Now lets get real. Many BG's ain't scared of cops Do you really think you and you Alfa dog commands will impress them.
You might have 2 sec. if you lucky. The above crap won't wash in real life. Theirs no time and is gonna get you killed.
I have USED A 1911 AS A CIV for SD . I had time to draw, off the safety while raising the pistol (yes it can be done) and fireing . If I hadn't my wife would have been a widow

Just walking down by the beach in the afternoon, or whatnot, there's no way I need a round in the chamber in Wal Mart.
Been several SD shooting at Wally world last couple years Open you eyes.
As for your father sorry But he was a fool and lucky Don't bet you life on a bluff. Other guy may not bluff and have the winning hand A loaded pistol.

By way I am 61 and a Locked & Cocked Commander is on my hip as I type this. Be like a Boy Scout Always Prepaired . Not 1/2 way with a empty pistol.

[monkeyboy]

Jumping out the car to deal with 4 guys seems an unbelievably stupid tactical action. He needed to step on the gas.

A moving car has the best reputation for one shot stops.

Stay in the car and get out of dodge!

[JoeBlackSpade]

Actually, Monkeyboy, the way it was described to me, he started to get out of the car to assess the damage before realizing he was in a situation. By the time he realized it, he was standing by the door of the car, and saw the situation unfolding.


Anyway, as I said before, to each his own. Carrying a round in the chamber is totally unnecessary for the average joe. If you are ambushed by a gun wielding opponent, you can't draw anyway, and if you are NOT ambushed, but rather faced with a gradually unfolding situation, then you have time to draw, rack the slide, and take aim.

This idea that a round in the chamber will make a difference is false-

*UNLESS*

- you are a law enforcement officer making a traffic stop, or other specialized field.


Getting mugged can only go but so many ways. I'd be interested in reading some stats about how they go down- and whether or not chambering a round became a factor.

[Lurper]

Carrying a round in the chamber is totally unnecessary for the average joe.
I would like to see data that supports that contention. I won't though because it doesn't exist. Some situations unfold quickly, others do not. You often don't decide how fast they unfold.

If you are ambushed by a gun wielding opponent, you can't draw anyway
Can and has been done. Depends on the level of competence. To resign yourself to be at the mercy of the BG just because he has a gun on you is your decision. However, if your weapon is not ready, you cannot make that choice becuase carrying it in cond. 3 is like not carrying it at all.

Getting mugged can only go but so many ways. I'd be interested in reading some stats about how they go down- and whether or not chambering a round became a factor.
Again, reality doesn't support your contention. Do some searching and you will discover that. Read The Ayoob Files, The Armed Citizen or other publications. What you are advocating is akin to not being armed at all.

[revjen45]

Post #49: "I'm sorry, but I just don't have that much adrenaline, and intensity when I'm walking my dog in Lake Mary, FL."
Cond.1 carry doesn't require adrenaline, and carrying a gun requires every bit as much intensity in Cond.3, maybe more since it requires more action on your part and more vigilance to give you that extra time. It's like those who believe the world is only a few thousand years old. I don't believe that, but feel no compulsion to convert them to my my view of cosmology. If you want to carry with an empty chamber and the mag a couple of rounds down, by all means do what you're comfortable with. The 2 scenarios presented are not the only possibilities- there are an infinity of possible scenarios. It is a non-sequitor to suggest that taking the safety off will slow you down too much but feeding a round won't. I believe in simplicity, so I usually carry a point and shoot gun, auto or revolver. When I carry a .45 auto it's C&L, and I can disengage the safety while bringing it up to line of sight. The Israelis went for Cond.3 because they had a motley assortment of handguns and that works for any auto, while Cond.1 requires a manual of arms for the specific gun.

[Baba Louie]

This idea that a round in the chamber will make a difference is false-

*UNLESS*

- you are a law enforcement officer making a traffic stop, or other specialized field.
Or your weak side arm is disabled or nullified in the initial ambush

[WhiteFeather93]

Why bicker? :rolleyes:

I'm not quite understanding why there is so much arguing going on. If a person does not feel comfortable in carrying any specific type of sidearm or carrying style then don't. If you don't like the 1911 don't carry it. If you don't like Glock don't carry it, its that simple. All of this justification has no end and no point. You could argue until you were blue in the face. There is no need to justify your preference. I believe the original post was about how happy someone was carrying that way. Well I'm glad you enjoy this new found freedom congradulations. If you feel comfortable and comfident then great! I carry my 1911 cocked and locked safety off. :eek: Why? Because I feel comfortable doing so. Is it flawed? Could I get hurt? If I ever do I'll be sure to post and if its my time to join the big party than so be it and you can read all about it in the newspaper.

[Spade Cooley]

Why do you think Cops carry guns that are ready to rock and roll with a round in the chamber like revolvers and Glocks? Because they are ready to go. Granted, in a surprise attack you might not get off the first shot but first shots often miss and you could get off the second shot. Or you could be hit and still get off the second shot. Give yourself an advantage.

[newarcher]

Been carrying full time anywhere that I can...it feels great.

Except the Kimber checkered grips are painful...I had to order some smooth ones. I can't sit in the truck with it on comfortably because it makes checkered patterns on my love handles. Very uncomfortable, yet beautiful.

I bought some cocobolo smooth grips from woodgrips.com. Very reasonable.....I can't wait.

I also bought a safe with a lock on it. When I come in from work, gun goes in the safe and the key goes around my neck. When we go to bed, the key goes into the safe and it is left locked so the kids can't waddle down at night and get into it. Deployable at a moment's notice and safe.

I am keeping the gun cocked and locked permanently and I discarded the round that I had chambered a couple times to be safe.

Houston, we have no problems. I carried to several public places (gas station, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.). No one was shot and I felt great exercising my rights.

The only problem is that the carry corset that I am wearing (belt) has to be cinched up so tight that I can hardly breathe. Otherwise the gun tends to flop...I need a better belt.

New

[easyG]

It's really simple...

You just have to weigh the risks and calculate the odds.
Which is more likely...

1) Your NEED to carry cocked-and-locked and be ready to engage attackers in a split second...

OR

2) The possibility of your kid, or anyone else, getting their hands on your pistol and shooting themself or someone else.

If I worked 3rd shift at an interstate-exit gas station, I would carry cocked-and-locked.

But in my suburban home with my children?

No way.

But that's just me...you have to decide for yourself.

Some guys on this forum are law enforcement...I'm not.

[kayakersteve]

The point some appear to be missing is that when the s..t hits the fan, it doesn't matter whether you are an 'average joe blo' or an elite special forces officer - If you are prepared to fight, (Gun with chambered round and ready to engage), you may win the fight. If you have to worry about chambering a round, you're toast! There is no effective alternative other than not carrying a weapon in my eyes. You either do it to be effective or don't do it.

[easyG]

The point some appear to be missing is that when the s..t hits the fan, it doesn't matter whether you are an 'average joe blo' or an elite special forces officer - If you are prepared to fight, (Gun with chambered round and ready to engage), you may win the fight. If you have to worry about chambering a round, you're toast! There is no effective alternative other than not carrying a weapon in my eyes. You either do it to be effective or don't do it.
I disagree.
When I was a Soldier in the Gulf War, we carried out rifles cocked-and-locked only when there was a reasonable chance of encountering the enemy...not all time, anywhere in theater.

I just don't see the need for the average Joe to carry locked-and-cocked in his home...especially when he has a very young child in his home.

Besides, it takes LESS than one second to chamber a round.
And if you keep the chamber empty, you can keep the safety off...so all you have to do is rack the slide and shoot.
If you don't have time to chamber the round and shoot, then I doubt if you would have had time to identify the threat, draw, and shoot accurately anyway.

[Lurper]

Which is more likely...

1) Your NEED to carry cocked-and-locked and be ready to engage attackers in a split second...

OR

2) The possibility of your kid, or anyone else, getting their hands on your pistol and shooting themself or someone else.
Based on the fact that firearms are used by civilians to stop crime more than a million times a year and only a handful of kids get their hands on a pistol and shoot someone or themselves, I'd have to say #1 is overwhelmingly more likely.


But in my suburban home with my children?
Because we all know nothing bad ever happens in the suburbs, right?

When I was a Soldier in the Gulf War, we carried out rifles cocked-and-locked only when there was a reasonable chance of encountering the enemy...not all time, anywhere in theater.
Irrelevant, because the organization which emplyed you dictated policy and that policy was not based on risk as much as liability. In other words, that organization didn't trust its rank and file members to be responsible enough to carry a loaded weapon.

Besides, it takes LESS than one second to chamber a round.
Less than a second gives me enough time to hit the target 6 times or more.

If you don't have time to chamber the round and shoot, then I doubt if you would have had time to identify the threat, draw, and shoot accurately anyway.
Fatal logic again. Often, there is not enough time to do anything other than shoot. Some people really don't grasp how quickly the scenario can go south. Sometimes they unfold slowly, sometimes they don't. The times that they don't don't allow enough time for racking the slide. Also, having to rack the slide just increases the chance for something to go wrong.

I'm not arguing the merits of carry C&L. Anyone is free to carry in any condition they are comfortable with. They assume the inherent risk. But to think that carrying in cond. 3 is as safe or effective as cond. 1 flies in the face of reality. You guys need to come back to earth and understand how these events can unfold.

[kayakersteve]

Lurper - Again, great summary. If I keep posting after you, I will never get carpal tunnel syndrome!

[vox rationis]

Well said Lurper and others promoting C&L/chambered carry.

I'm no authority, but logically, if based on your particular cost benefit analysis you have decided to carry the gun un-chambered, make sure you have a sturdy gun so that you can try to pummel your ambusher into submission when they get the drop on you because if you are within 7-10 yards of your attacker and the attacker knows what he's doing, I doubt you'll ever get a chance to do your double secret mall ninja rack and jack and deploy that weapon to save your life...and in this type of ambush scenario I don't think it'll be a "command" voice you'll be using, instead you'll be screaming for your life.

Even with a gun that's ready to shoot you are still on the wrong side of the reaction continuum against a determined attacker at most suburban distances, most experts use the 7-10 yard/meter rule. Having to chamber a round under stress, even assuming you don't botch the job, something quite likely I might add, adds precious time to your reaction continuum, and even a split second can mean the difference between life and death.

And just saying, well if they are that close then you are doomed anyway is like Lurper said, a fatalistic fallacy of reason. The point is, you want as much precious potentially life saving time available to you as possible while still keeping the weapon within its safety parameters (holstered and C&L with a 1911 style weapon). Instead of focusing on your fatalistic "oh well if they are that close anyway I'm doomed" you should refocus on "how can I carry this weapon safely but still maximize my speed in deploying safely", because yes, even a split second can mean the difference between life and death.

The one second to rack your slide (again if you don't botch it) is in practical reality an eternity, check out the knife vs gun video bellow, maybe it'll drive the point home:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-580082617292808951&q=knife+vs+gun&total=655&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

[easyG]

Based on the fact that firearms are used by civilians to stop crime more than a million times a year and only a handful of kids get their hands on a pistol and shoot someone or themselves, I'd have to say #1 is overwhelmingly more likely.
Be careful how you interpet the data...

Yes, many civilians use firearms to stop crimes, but how many of those firearms are single action pistols?
Rifles?
Shotguns?
And how many of those civilians keep their firearm lock-and-cocked 24/7?

I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of firearms owners, including the owners who stop crimes with their firearms, do not keep their weapons cocked-and-locked 24/7.

Besides, why take the chance?
Millions of folks use bleach every year without incident too...does that mean you leave bleach in easy access of small children?

Because we all know nothing bad ever happens in the suburbs, right?
Of course crime happens in the suburbs.
But the typical U.S. suburb is not an especially violent place.
If you feel the need to carry cocked-and-locked 24/7 in your own backyard, then maybe you should consider moving.
I grew up in a rough neighborhood where violence was not very uncommon.
But the neighborhood I live in now has not seen a violent crime in over 16 years.

Irrelevant, because the organization which emplyed you dictated policy and that policy was not based on risk as much as liability. In other words, that organization didn't trust its rank and file members to be responsible enough to carry a loaded weapon.
Simply not true.
We had magazines of ammo with us most of the time, but unless we were being deployed forward, or on perimeter guard, there really was no need to carry cocked-and-locked.

Less than a second gives me enough time to hit the target 6 times or more.
Fatal logic again. Often, there is not enough time to do anything other than shoot. Some people really don't grasp how quickly the scenario can go south. Sometimes they unfold slowly, sometimes they don't. The times that they don't don't allow enough time for racking the slide. Also, having to rack the slide just increases the chance for something to go wrong.
Care to give some real life example?

I think some folks on this forum really lose perspective.

If you live in an average U.S. neighborhood in the typical U.S. city or town, you simply don't need to carry locked-and-cocked 24/7, always ready to shoot someone six times in under a second.
And it's certainly not worth the risk if you have small children in the house.

[easyG]

I'm no authority, but logically, if based on your particular cost benefit analysis you have decided to carry the gun un-chambered, make sure you have a sturdy gun so that you can try to pummel your ambusher into submission when they get the drop on you because if you are within 7-10 yards of your attacker and the attacker knows what he's doing,...
If your attacker "knows what he's doing", and get's the drop on you, you'll never even know it....you'll just be dead or unconscious, cocked-and-locked or not.

But again, the average U.S. citizen does not have to worry much about ninjas jumping from the roof or from the shadows in a surprise attack.:rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since most DGUs have no shots fired, I recommend keeping the gun unloaded for safety.

Many children have taken the guns from out of their parents' holster off their belt and then shot the family poodle.

One always has time to load the gun in a crisis.

[ATW525]

What does condition 1 vs condition 3 have to do with child safety?? If your idea of "child safing" your firearm is to not carry one in the chamber, then you need to sell your firearms before you get somebody killed. Simply keeping an empty pipe just doesn't cut it.

If you are properly securing and maintaining control over your weapons then it doesn't matter if you have a round in the chamber or not, because unauthorized people will not have access. If you're not capable of properly securing and maintaining control of your firearms, then I suggest doing people a favor and trading them in for airsoft replicas, water pistols or nerf dart shooters that don't require to same level of responsable ownership as real firearms.

[Lurper]

Yes, many civilians use firearms to stop crimes, but how many of those firearms are single action pistols?
Irrelevant unless you are claiming that a SA is somehow less safe with a round in the chamber than ony other type of action, which frankly, is absurd.
What would be relevant is how many had loaded guns or guns that could be employed immediately without having to rack the slide.

And how many of those civilians keep their firearm lock-and-cocked 24/7?
Again irrelevant. The op was talking about carrying C&L primarily. Unless you are trying to say that a SA is more dangerous with a round in the chamber - see above.
Storing a weapon should be the same whether it is single action or not. If you have children in the house, secure it in a safe. Or, do what I do; keep it on my person. That way I know who is in direct control of it. You're taking no more chance with SA than any other action.

But the typical U.S. suburb is not an especially violent place.
If you feel the need to carry cocked-and-locked 24/7 in your own backyard, then maybe you should consider moving.
I grew up in a rough neighborhood where violence was not very uncommon.
But the neighborhood I live in now has not seen a violent crime in over 16 years.
More fatal logic. It only needs to happen once - to you!

We had magazines of ammo with us most of the time, but unless we were being deployed forward, or on perimeter guard, there really was no need to carry cocked-and-locked.
Need had nothing to do with it. It was SOP dictated by your chain of command. Also fatal logic by assuming rear or secure areas are "safe".

Care to give some example?
Sure, here are a couple of easy ones to check. Richard Davis, Helen Weathers, Tom Yuhr, check out The Ayoob Files.

As far as perspective goes, I carry, train, sell and teach with firearms every day. I have BTDT on more than one occasion. I have contact with people who have BTDT. I have a good perspective on the big picture. I'm not saying you're crazy if you don't want to carry. What I'm saying is you're crazy if you think that carrying or keeping a SA auto C&L is less safe or if you think that every situation is going to unfold slowly enough for you to rack the slide before employing your firearm.

[parrothead2581]

+1 Atw525

[easyG]

Irrelevant unless you are claiming that a SA is somehow less safe with a round in the chamber than ony other type of action, which frankly, is absurd.
Yes, a cocked SA pistol is more dangerous around children than a DA/SA or DAO pistol.
Nobody ever intentionally leaves their handgun where a child can find it...but it happens all the time.
Humans make mistakes.
And even a very small child can manipulate the safety and pull the trigger on a SA pistol...it takes virually no finger strength at all.
But it is very difficult for a small child to rack the slide of a pistol and chamber a round.
It's simply not worth the risk to your family and child.

More fatal logic. It only needs to happen once - to you!
And a child only needs to get his hand on your cocked-and-locked pistol ONCE.

Yes, by all means, keep your firearms away from children.
But humans make mistakes.
All it takes is to be forgetful just once.
Or to be distracted just once.


Need had nothing to do with it. It was SOP dictated by your chain of command. Also fatal logic by assuming rear or secure areas are "safe".
SOP for a good reason.
The chances of encountering the enemy in secure areas is extremely remote.
AND in the event that the enemy does strike in a secured area, it only takes a couple of seconds to lock and load.
As I said, while in the rear we had the loaded magazines with us, just not in our rifles...it's not like we had to run to the arms room to get them.

I have never seen any shooting situation where the threat did not present itself until it was too late to even rack the slide of a pistol.

I have seen cases where a person did not RECOGNIZE the threat until it was too late...but carrying cocked-and-locked would not have saved them either.

[parrothead2581]

If you have children, keep the pistol on your person until you go to bed.

I'm with Col Jeff Cooper on this one. Cond 1 is the most sensible way to carry a 1911.

Doesn't the existence of a thumb safety say it was designed to be carried in condition 1?

Hope your hand doesn't slip when you really need to rack that slide.

[Lurper]

I obviously have too much time on my hands today.

Yes, a cocked SA pistol is more dangerous around children than a DA/SA or DAO pistol.
Unless you want to split hairs, that just isn't true. Yes, it takes less strength, but a 5+ year old will be able to pull the trigger on most guns. They will also have the strength to cock the hammer on a SA/DA or revolver. You cannot eliminate every possibility, you can only cover so many. You hit the nail on the head - humans are the weak link, not the firearm.

It's simply not worth the risk to your family and child.
IMO, it's not worth the risk to my family or children to carry cond 3.

SOP for a good reason.
The chances of encountering the enemy in secure areas is extremely remote.
AND in the event that the enemy does strike in a secured area, it only takes a couple of seconds to lock and load.
The "good reason" that SOP exists has nothing to do with the likelihood of encountering the enemy. It exists because the level of training for the average soldier is so low that too many ad/nd happen. Again, it exists because the organization does not trust its members to walk around with loaded weapons. Sure if you are in a "secure" area and are engaged by a sniper it only takes a couple of seconds to charge your weapon. That's fine as long as you are not the first target of a competent sniper.

I have never seen any shooting situation where the threat did not present itself until it was too late to even rack the slide of a pistol.
Then you haven't seen many. I gave you a couple of quick examples. I have lived through a couple myself and have friends who have. If you do some basic research, you will find that the situation does not always unfold that way.

I have seen cases where a person did not RECOGNIZE the threat until it was too late...but carrying cocked-and-locked would not have saved them either.
Again, not true. Read Mas' account of the incidents I posted previously. Sometimes the situation is thrust upon you. I wouldn't beat you up about it so much except for the fact that it is fatal logic. Carrying in condition 3 is like saying you should carry your revolver empty with a speedloader because you will always have time to load before you need to fire. That type of thinking will get you killed.

[easyG]

You cannot eliminate every possibility, you can only cover so many.
Right.
And that's why it makes sense to keep the chamber empty around your kids.

IMO, it's not worth the risk to my family or children to carry cond 3.
You must live in a really dangerous place for you to believe that carrying with a empty chamber and loaded magazine is risking the lives of your family.

The "good reason" that SOP exists has nothing to do with the likelihood of encountering the enemy. It exists because the level of training for the average soldier is so low that too many ad/nd happen. Again, it exists because the organization does not trust its members to walk around with loaded weapons.
Not true.
IF that were the case they would not have let us even have the loaded magazines.
And they would not have dictated a lock-and-load SOP when leaving the camp, which they did.
Sure if you are in a "secure" area and are engaged by a sniper it only takes a couple of seconds to charge your weapon. That's fine as long as you are not the first target of a competent sniper.
Again, it's all about the odds of encountering the enemy.
In areas where snipers are a reasonable possibility, you carry locked-and-loaded, and even that aint going to save you if you're the first target of a competent sniper.

But you have to ask yourself, is there a reasonable chance of a sniper attacking you at your home in the city or suburbs?

Carrying in condition 3 is like saying you should carry your revolver empty with a speedloader because you will always have time to load before you need to fire. That type of thinking will get you killed.
Not even remotely comparable.:rolleyes:

I'm not saying that you should never carry cocked-and-locked.
There are times when it is the smart thing to do.

But if you really feel the need to carry cocked-and-locked while walking in your own backyard or through your own neighborhood, then you really should find a better place to raise your children.

[newarcher]

EasyG,

You are as wrong as wrong can possibly be.

The issue of cocked and locked isn't about the odds of you encountering the enemy...which may be small. The issue is about the odds of losing precious time if you ever have to use your gun....which at the time of use is 100%.

Up to the point of having to pull the gun and use it, you might as well be carrying a brick. Once you reach the point of needing to pull it/use it, your argument falls flat on its face.

I have read articles by criminals that state that they intentionally go to places where people are at ease and less likely to be armed.

Anyway, carry it any way you like. I am not telling you to carry it cocked and locked....I am telling you that if and when someone decides to attack you, it will be 100% a surprise.

New

[easyG]

The issue of cocked and locked isn't about the odds of you encountering the enemy...which may be small. The issue is about the odds of losing precious time if you ever have to use your gun....which at the time of use is 100%.
Maybe you did not read all of this thread?:confused:

It's about weighing the risks of keeping a cocked-and-locked SA pistol in a home with children vs carrying a pistol with a loaded magazine and empty chamber.

If you live alone with no kids, or if you're married to a wife who knows how to shoot and have no kids, then I would see nothing wrong with keeping your pistol cocked-and-locked.
But if you have children in the house it's just not worth the risk.

I have read articles by criminals that state that they intentionally go to places where people are at ease and less likely to be armed.
Just because you're not carrying cocked-and-locked it does not mean that you're "at ease" and unarmed.
Now THAT'S a fatal assumption!

[vox rationis]

f your attacker "knows what he's doing", and get's the drop on you, you'll never even know it....you'll just be dead or unconscious, cocked-and-locked or not.

But again, the average U.S. citizen does not have to worry much about ninjas jumping from the roof or from the shadows in a surprise attack.

No, but the average US citizen does have to worry about a criminal bent on brutalizing and robbing him/her jumping out of the bushes in a surprise attack. That's what criminals do, they mostly attack by surprise. And even if it is an unplanned attack of opportunism, say some guy decides to intimidate/attack you at the ATM, or in a parking lot, chances are high that he'll be able to approach you to within conversational distance, or close thereto. If he wants to place your safety in danger, having to fumble with racking the slide considerably lessens your chances of being able to use your gun successfully for self-defense.

And as far as their skill is concerned, I think it is better to assume that the attacker "knows what he's doing" because more often than not they do know what they are doing, they are criminals, and I for one wouldn't want to be hopeful that they are weak understudies, chances are, they've done this before. What is it, like 15% of the criminals do 80% of crimes or something like that.

Lastly, based on the latest FBI data on armed criminals:

--show signs of being armed that officers miss;

--have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;

--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/ForceScience/articles/1243754/

So we aren't cops and hopefully we can avert confrontations with these very dangerous criminals that will also hopefully not choose to target us (it is better to be lucky than good), but if you carry a gun to protect your life wouldn't you want to carry it in a safe method that also allows you to deploy it in the safest AND quickest manner possible? If not, what's the point of even carrying the weapon, unless in an extremely low threat area, and even then, if you are trained, which you should be, and the gun is carried in a proper and safe manner, which should be the case, why not carry it C&L?

I can't think of one good argument against carrying C&L, except for not doing so in your house if you have kids that are too young or unreliable to be educated and trained, in which case a safety lock box would be the better option anyway, and in that case one might opt for C&L anyway since the gun will be in the lock box. Or if you carry it relatively unsecured in Mexican Carry or in a brief case or something.

[Lurper]

You must live in a really dangerous place for you to believe that carrying with a empty chamber and loaded magazine is risking the lives of your family.
Where I live has nothing to do with it. The fact that I have been in more than my share of confrontations has everything to do with it. In an armed confrontation, every milisecond counts. The amount of time it takes to rack the slide can make the difference between life and death.

Maybe you did not read all of this thread?

It's about weighing the risks of keeping a cocked-and-locked SA pistol in a home with children vs carrying a pistol with a loaded magazine and empty chamber
Since he is the original poster, I think he probably has a good grasp of what the issue is. They are two seperate issues which you are now blurring. Again, there is no evidence to support the contention that:

C&L is less safe than any other type of action w/a round in the chamber

SA autos are less safe in storage than any other type of action

That every situation unfolds slowly enough that you will have the luxury of time enough to rack the slide before you need to shoot.

That by carrying C&L I am somehow putting myself and family at greater risk.

There is no need to carry in "nice neighborhoods" (like to ask Sharon Tate?).

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

[easyG]

Never mind.

[parrothead2581]

If in public it's C&L. I believe that was the main point of this thread.

At home with kids in the house and you don't conceal it on you ...well, I may have to give that one to easyg, but only because of the lack of responsibility of, unfortunately, a lot of folks.

If a gun is loaded, it's either on my person, or locked away. I'm not much for loading and unloading everyday as that would only seem to increase your chances of an ND.

Funny how I got the latest issue of Guns and Ammo today and it addresses that same topic (home storage).

[ilikesa]

Even though its just a movie, I think that Collateral gave a good example where a LOADED gun saved his life...his other hand was busy pushing the BGs gun away.

Also, if you are not carrying with one in the chamber, there is a possibilty, no matter how remote, of Murphy smiling on you as you have a jam when loading it. I want things to be as simple and streamlined as possible, and for me, CL is that.

[newarcher]

Like I said much earlier, I am not going to diss anyone about the way they carry.

For me, I just realized:

1) I can carry it C&L safely
2) I put it in the safe and hide the key on ME until bedtime
3) If I ever have to employ the gun, it will be an emergency with no time to spare.
4) If ever in a fight for life, my left hand (I am a right handed person) will probably be used for some sort of defense.
5) If I have to chamber a round in a fight....at the very minimum....I have to take my mental attention off the bad guy or guys if not my eyes off them also.
6) If in an emergency, I will probably short cycle the slide and jam myself.

JMHO.

Not dissing anyone who carries differently, just discussing.

New

[jkp1187]

I was going to post a longer message, but newarcher more or less said what I wanted to say. ;)

I'll just add that I carry a Kahr MK9 with one in the chamber (I guess that's "condition zero", as there's no safety). Given that time, money, and resources are limited, I do not train to carry it "Israeli-style", nor do I intend to. I do agree that military forces do things in certain ways for certain reasons, and those reasons are not always applicable to civilian self-defense situations. And also, given the small size/relative 'tightness' of the Kahr, I'd be worried that I'd screw something up if trying to chamber a round in a panic situation.

If someone wants to carry a different way, then they are an adult and are free to do what they wish per their own values and judgments, particularly with respect to their own skill level/personal comfort level -- not to mention the peculiarities of their equipment.

And I would also agree that the idea that there is "one right way" to do anything in every context is fatuous.

[vox rationis]

newarcher, had you posted your succinct and cogent response before, I wouldn't have flapped my gums the way I did with my previous posts :D

[easyG]

2) I put it in the safe and hide the key on ME until bedtime
Good.
And I sincerely hope that you never make a mistake.
Because all it takes is for you to not close that safe all the way...or take the key off just for a minute...just once.

3) If I ever have to employ the gun, it will be an emergency with no time to spare.
Time enough for you to get your pistol out of your safe, but not time enough to chamber a round???:confused:

4) If ever in a fight for life, my left hand (I am a right handed person) will probably be used for some sort of defense.
5) If I have to chamber a round in a fight....at the very minimum....I have to take my mental attention off the bad guy or guys if not my eyes off them also.
No, you chamber a round right when you determine that you had better get your pistol...not after you are already fighting or confronting the possible threat.

For example:
You hear a noise in the night that wakes you.
You pick up your pistol, chamber a round, and investigate the source of the noise.

6) If in an emergency, I will probably short cycle the slide and jam myself.
Not likely.
But if you think that you might then you need to practice more.



I wonder...do you keep your rifles and shotguns cocked-and-locked 24/7?

[ilikesa]

"I wonder...do you keep your rifles and shotguns cocked-and-locked 24/7?"

I do. Theres no reason not to.

I disagree with putting the guns into the safe. The safest place is on you. I dont have kids, so when I wake up, I reach over, get my pistol, and put it on. Sometimes you just dont have time, especially if you get ambushed.

Call me paranoid, but you can be paranoid and wrong plenty of times....or you might be fighting for your life next time.

[bcarver]

I often felt uneasy carrying a 1911 cocked . I felt the safety could get pushed down and the trigger could be bumped on the draw. but having the beavertail safety and pondering that all three could happen at the same time I feel safe carrying this way(cocked).
However before I decided to carry this way I did some research. I discovered that the Masada carry with the chamber empty. and through their training and more training they become wickedly fast on the draw and fire.
If you are seriously looking for a way to carry find a video of their training.

[gvf]

If you figure the chances that a 1 or 2 sec additional time will mean your demise, it is SO small it becomes personal choice and comfort if you carry C&L or not. The chances are great none of us will ever even once need to pull our guns. 80% of those very unlikely times, the BG flees. That leaves 20% of a likely-never shooting event. Out of THAT, the number dependent on not having 1 sec to spare becomes so small as to be meaningless as far as worrying about consequences. Do you worry your that brakes will fail AND your emergency brake fails at the same time? And make choices in your life dependent on that happening?

[ilikesa]

Do you worry your that brakes will fail AND your emergency brake fails at the same time? And make choices in your life dependent on that happening?

The same with the 3 safeties on the 1911...thumb, grip and trigger pull.

[gvf]

and more so with arguments over C&L. It is personal choice and comfort. (Not YOURS, the other persons'.)

[revjen45]

"I carry my 1911 cocked and locked safety off."
Actually, that's cocked and UNlocked. Some German security units employ this mode of carry. Just have a holster that covers the trigger and keep yer booger hook off'n the bang switch until showtime. I once carried my Makarov for 3 days before realizing the hammer was cocked, and there's no C&L option for a Mak.

[newarcher]

Well, son of Vlad....

Just like fine art or a nicely aged bottle of wine.....perfection takes time my friend.

I was pacing myself! ;)

New

[easyG]

I once carried my Makarov for 3 days before realizing the hammer was cocked,....
:eek::eek::eek:
I would not want you anywhere near me if you had a firearm!

[john_galt]

Good.
And I sincerely hope that you never make a mistake.
Because all it takes is for you to not close that safe all the way...or take the key off just for a minute...just once.


And the kid has to find the key while it's off, and he has to evade dad, and get the key in the door, and grab the gun.

Now if your kid is tracking you all day long to get the key the instant it comes off so he can grab your LOADED gun and play with it...well the fact that you have a loaded gun in the house is not the REAL issue.

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.

[gvf]

Delete:Double Post

[gvf]

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.


NO, this is NOT good. It all depends on no human error ever occurring, while at the same time involving the lives of children; and no we are not argumentative nor SOBs for bringing up these concerns, and YOU have no right calling anyone a SOB, especially from the safety of your keyboard... Grow-up.

You should be off the forums for this kind of belligerent nonsense.

[Capt Charlie]

:rolleyes:

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.
and...

YOU have no right calling anyone a SOB, especially from the safety of your keyboard... Grow-up.

You should be off the forums for this kind of belligerent nonsense.
and...

Another one bites the dust. Closed.