Had to Brandish it

[Tanzer]

I've always maintained that simply brandishing a weapon is about 5-10% effective, so don't do it unless you're prepared to use it. Well, it came down to the brass tacks over the weekend. It happened out of state, but I hold a valid non-resident CWP there.
We were coming out of a sandwich shop just after dark. 40-50 ft to the car - lot mostly empty. The car was parked with the driver's side door facing us. About 100 ft beyond the car was a guy holding two plastic bags, dressed nasty walking away from us - the only other person in the lot that I could see. He was talking and laughing to himself, but in this day and age it could have been a bluetooth, right?
Just to be safe, I walked around the car with my wife and teenage daughter to let them in. Great time for the remote door opener not to work, so I put the key in the door. At this point, he stopped, turned, dropped his bags and started walking towards us. He yelled; (I won't state the vernacular) "Oh, you gotta walk the ladies to their doors to keep them safe! From me, huh? I ignored him but hastened to get them shuffled in, by now, he had gotten within about 50 ft and basically repeated himself, so I stated: (without staring him down) "It's proper to open a door for a lady", and went around the back of my car.
While doing so, he picked up his pace, and reached into his pocket. He produced something shiny, though I couldn't quite make it out. He also changed his angle so the car didn't cover me, and my teenage son was just getting in.
At this point he was shouting; "What you afraid of"? I stated loudly; You need to go on about your business, we're leaving". Unfortunately, He was a little too close to turn my back on. My wife had opened the door and was on the cell to 911, but I didn't feel safe turning away. I even started to put one leg in the car, but it's a high SUV, and I wasn't comfortable. I said "STOP THERE" one more time, but to no avail.
By now the 21ft rule was in play, and he was waving something shiny (off to the side for some reason - it looked like a stapler if that makes sense, but if he's waving it, he has some purpose - staple me? There was an Office Max nearby). When he took one more step - still barking about being sick of white people being a**holes, I had no choice but to produce my 45. At first, he called it a toy. "Oh I'm supposed to run from a "capper"? (cap gun?).
I stated; "You are a threat to my family. If you come any closer or make any move towards this car, I will have no choice but to shoot you. Go away and leave us alone"!
I guess the barrel of the .45 took on a different look now. Perhaps he got a better look in the lights. My wife had started the car and was yelling that she had 911 on the phone. He took some kind of fit like he was stomping ants - anyhow, his attention was off me, so I jumped in the car, darn near dropping the gun in the process. He walked away, still ranting.
The LEO's were no problem to us (sherrif dept.), and took a statement. They called us later to let us know they picked him up, no weapons on him, but a bag full of ladies items - probably stolen.
Just sharing an experience and I guess it could have been much worse. This time (thank goodness) simply brandishing was enough. Not always the case. This was a quick synopsis-just the facts. A bit more went on.

[gvf]

Sounds OK to me but I'm no expert in when you can pull a gun - in NY State I believe it is in preparation to use it only. And I suppose here, if your situation happened, you were getting ready to defend yourself and family so it would be OK. Sounds like something dependent on the situation and how cops at the scene react. You had some reasonable ones. If I were a cop it would make a big difference if a man were with his family, children etc., than if it was one guy out of two near a bar at 2:00 am or something. Then I might wonder. I think it always helps to call 911, makes it clearer you're trying to get help for yourself and not just acting like Rambo, no matter what the situation and your wife (and you) did the right thing.

[Jim March]

I don't know of ANY state where that would have been illegal. It's dark out, the guy is seriously threatening and has something shiny in hand? About as clear-cut as it gets.

A stapler would make a hell of a hand-load (sort of a "super kubaton").

[jfrey123]

I always envision myself being able to talk an attacker down, even if it takes a loaded weapon to do so. You were ready to fire to protect yourself and yours, but you had enough buffer time to stop him with words as well. In my perfect world, if I have to produce a weapon but am able to tell the perp, "Stop or I'll shoot!", that means I might not have to actually shoot him. :eek:

The idea of protecting myself without having to end a life always make me a little warm and fuzzy inside. :D

[Tanzer]

Some clarification;
It was a hard call, but it seemed the only thing to do. I was ready to use it but prayed it would not come to that. He was really ranting/swearing a lot more than I may have made it seem and he was menacing. He was also big/50ish. He moved slow like he had knee pain. He acted a bit nutty, so he couldn't be trusted. He was one moment staring at whatever was in his hand following it with his head as he moved it, (one reason I couldn't tell what it was - he also back-handed it) then shouting at me that he was sick of people "making him out bad" . I just wanted a break to get into my car, and I got it. Had I not had the car, it would have been another story. If not for my family, I would have been much more able to just fly. Obviously, waiting in the store would have been a better choice.
The sherriff's dept was familiar with him, and he did not actually do more than verbal theats, so we weren't needed to ID him (we were 20 miles away by the time they called). They DID hold me at the scene and take my gun until they checked my credentials via computer and checked for any outstandings. They were formal, not friendly, but had no reason to doubt me since my wife had been on 911 and my story matched.
Nobody in the sandwich store saw anything. The way it's designed, they were probably being honest. Only two employees.

[Duxman]

Tanzer -

You did very well. Kept your head cool. But were ready for anything. Better safe than sorry.

Glad you didnt have to use it. But without your CCW, things might have turned out different.

Good show.

Did they arrest this BG?

[newarcher]

That's no good at all...but you did well.

I think I would have had a tough time not shooting the guy. Once he breached 20 feet, he might have been shot.

The aside is that your wife is to be commended for having the thought process to ready the car. Had you been required to start the car in addition to getting into it, things might have ended differently.

Scary stuff.

New

[Tanzer]

They said they were processing him, but only for previous problems, and to check out why he had "women's items" (I'm guessing make-up kits?). We could file against him if we wanted, but he never actually assaulted other than verbally, so any charges would be minor. A cop called, not the sherrif's dept. He sounded pretty digusted. BTW - he was considered dangerous, but gets released as an out-patient (food for thought). That's all they wanted to tell me, and I didn't want to stir anything up, or I might be answering more questions.

[3 gun]

"While doing so, he picked up his pace, and reached into his pocket. He produced something shiny, though I couldn't quite make it out."

Failing light, loved ones around and an aggressive man charging my vehicle with something in his hands. At this point I would have needed an ambulance.

[Tanzer]

To be honest, I darn near lost bodily control as the sheriff arrived. I had driven a few hundred feet to another lot (over a flower bed) to put some distance in. Why not before? 'Dunno, All I wanted was to get in the car - that was foremost on my mind. We went to sleep late that night for sure - Frozen margaritas by the campfire and a lot of talking, but some laughter came out of it, like the juggling act as I tried to put the gun in the car (hot potato).
I commend my wife for clear thinking. She qualified for a CWP but was turned down in our home state because "I alreadry had one" (don't get me started on the sillyness of that one).
I wasn't going to mention it, but my BUG (belongs to her) was tucked beside the seat. Turns out she got it into her purse before getting on the phone, then back beside the seat before the good guys arrived. Smart girl.

[OoMesKoO]

Hey Tanzer... not to get off topic, but i see you are from Rhode island. Now because of this same scituation, I know Rhode Island isnt the best state in the world. Ive tried to pursue a liscense, but to no avail. Maybe you could point me in the right direction? Thank you, I appreciate it.

[rantingredneck]

Glad to hear you and yours are OK. Can't say I would've done anything different. Though (and I wasn't there so I can't say for sure) I may have been in the same boat as 3 gun. He may have needed an ambulance. It would depend highly on what that shiny thing looked like as it was leaving his pocket.

[Lexter]

Tanzer,

Good job regardless! I pray that I never have to use deadly force but hopefully can in the face of a BG.

Got you amped up afterwards, didn't it?


Lexter

[Lurper]

You did well and achieved the best possible outcome. 'nuff said.

[VUPDblue]

"Oh I'm supposed to run from a "capper"? (cap gun?).

Not a reference to a toy. That is street slang for pistol or gun in general. Like "I'm gonna bust a cap in your @$$" the 'capper' would be the instrument for busting said cap... Statements like this are suppost to showcase the aggressor's machismo like he is not scared of being shot. Tough situation you were in there. Glad you are OK.

[Tanzer]

Lexter, Darn tootin' it did.
OomeskoO,
The incident happened in another New England state. I don't want to disclose the area because I have a vacation home 20 miles north, and I don't want to tee off the sheriff with any press. It's a rural mountain area. As for getting a RI CWP (a prerequisite for out of stste non-res), It is indeed hard. You need a "statement of need". I was able to show that as a landlord, I ran a small business and therefore could be carrying money. Furthermore, We live aboard our sailboat from May to October, so we need to go through dark marina parking lots, especially meeting my wife when she works late, and walking the dogs. The last obstacle is political. I happen to know the retired former deputy from RI's BCI dept. He's the guy who used to issue the permits. I qualified with him, and he put in a word for me. I still got denied and had to interview. A real Fred Astair routine, but I got it. My wife tried the Ginger Rogers, but she got downed as per my previous.
Wish I could help more. Send me a private and I'll shoot over his name & number, but it's up to you to impress him - He's no nonsense. If he likes you, he'll help, but you still have to impress the new guy. He made it clear it's his office now. I'm busy this time of year, so I'll try to respond soon, but I'm goin' sailing tomorrow!
Rantingredneck,
I still think it was a stapler (though it may have been a makeup case or folding comb) he had two bags and was found with one. The fact that I couldn't make it out may have been the saving grace for all involved. I sure would hate to answer for shooting a mad stapling maniac. I can't say how I would have reacted had it obviously been a Bowie knife, and I don't really want to, but I guess I should.
VUPDblue,
I'll have to change my sig line. Maybe my ignorance of that term helped me. Had I known that, It'd have shaken me more.

[JohnKSa]

I've always maintained that simply brandishing a weapon is about 5-10% effective, so don't do it unless you're prepared to use it.If you believe the statistics, brandishing is about 90% effective.

Around 90% of all successful defensive gun uses do not involve actually firing the gun.

[WeedWacker]

There was an armed citizen report of an old lady who called to her husband to get his gun and the BG's fled the scene. :D

[Doug.38PR]

Sounds like you handled yourself well Tanzer. Thank you for sharing.

[Tanzer]

JohnKSa,
Maybe we're talking different stats, or maybe I'm all wet. I wasn't talking about confronting a punk stealing tools from the shed (all instances), but rather of your chances once someone has made the choice to confront you. As I understand, they drop drastically. I'll keep your numbers in mind, but this incident has left me no more likely to brandish it. I still consider myself lucky, and I'm glad the barrel of that 1911 is so darn wide.
VUPDblue says capper means gun, I think the hole in the front of a .45 looks more like a de-capper.
Thanks for the info anyhow.

[CyberSEAL]

Good job.

[chris in va]

I suspect if the guy did the same thing to an off duty police officer, he would have drawn upon seeing the 'shiny object' and threatening language/position. No need to try and rationalize what you did, I'd say it was quite conservative really.

[Wildalaska]

Of course this thread demonstrates the superiority of the full size (or bigger) gun vis a vis the small caliber pocket pistol...

Bigger guns look more intimidating. 44 special and 45 acp/colt revolvers :)

WildgolddotsAlaska

[Creature]

Imagine of you hadnt had your gun...:eek:

[Wildalaska]

Imagine of you hadnt had your gun..

Thats why god made tire irons. :D

WildoneofmyfavaccessoriesAlaska

[Jim March]

This situation is what I call a "chase off". Happens a LOT.

It happens most often when you are absolutely determined to fire, the goblin sees this and gets that sudden wet-pants feeling. Or sometimes the grand trifecta, the "squishy pants feeling" (ewww). And then promptly makes it no longer necessary to ventilate him.

This is a good thing.

I've done "chase offs" twice now with me having *knives*, not guns. Doesn't work as reliably as with guns I'd guesstimate, but like I say, it's worked twice now against human assailants and oh yeah, twice more against dogs.

In the latter events with dogs it wasn't the knives that made them back down, but my confidence in having 'em that helped most in making 'em flee.

And this in turn is important: how your armament (whatever it is) makes YOU feel matters in how likely a chase-off will occur. So it's best to know and trust your gear, and carry stuff you have confidence in...because that confidence will show on your face and bearing much more than your actual caliber or gun type will!

I'd rather have a snubbie I trust than a cannon I don't.

[Black Adder LXX]

Nicely done. I respect the way you handled yourself.

[Dwight55]

Good job, Tanzer, . . . everyone went home in one piece, . . . lawyers did not get involved :D:D

It is a shame that our society has declined to the point that nasty offence is taken, . . . just for the devilment of taking it in your perp's case. One thing for sure though, . . . that type of attitude always looks for an adjustment, and there is more than likely someone nearby who will adjust it for him.

May God bless,
Dwight

[sac39051]

All I can say is excellent job Tanzer. And based on your post thank god it was you and not some poor out of town schmuck who may well have wet his pants in the face of such an incident. I have had similar situations arise way to often lately out here in kalifornia, hopefully they wont turn into something much worse. It's these type of stories that make it silly for some states to ban the right to carry. Way to keep a cool head and get out of a bad situation safely

[eltorrente]

I would have gotten in the car and drove away.

I've had all sorts of kooks, wierdos and generally wacked-out people talk smack to me and try to be intimidating over the years. I never felt like I needed to stand my ground and pull a loaded gun on him- especially while standing next to the open door of my car. As long as he isn't holding the door open and preventing you from getting to safety, then what is the big deal? Better to just get your wife and kids the heck out of there, instead of having to watch Daddy almost blow some guy away..

The ones you gotta watch out for are the people who don't say a thing - not the ones that talk smack to you while walking across a parking lot. At least you didn't get stapled, and if you did, he didn't deserve to die because of it. :D

[Double Naught Spy]

eltorente is right.

Tanzer said...
"Oh, you gotta walk the ladies to their doors to keep them safe! From me, huh? I ignored him but hastened to get them shuffled in, by now, he had gotten within about 50 ft and basically repeated himself, so I stated: (without staring him down) "It's proper to open a door for a lady", and went around the back of my car.

Never talk back to crazy people, for crying out loud. And if you do, don't correct them. That just antagonizes them. Don't talk to strangers either, not unless you have to do so and correcting a stranger on the interpretation of your behavior is not something you have to do. In this case, it was a verbal challenge and you answered the call when you would have been better off saying nothing. By answering his challenge, you were playing his game. This was odd as you didn't want to try staring him down as some folks take that as a challenge, but you did answer his challenge.

Sounds OK to me but I'm no expert in when you can pull a gun - in NY State I believe it is in preparation to use it only.

This is one of those myths that creeps up now and then, the notion that if you draw your gun that you have to fire it. The concept implies that drawing and not firing is somehow illegal. It is a crock. There are no laws that saw if if show lethal force that you have to use lethal force. If there was such a law, it surely would not be in New York.

[The Canuck]

Tanzer,

You did well. The badguy presented a threat and you presented a firearm. The fact that nobody got hurt tells me one thing. You won. He wasn't hurt, you and yours weren't hurt and after it all, you had a few nervous laughs at the end.

I have read somewhere that out of every 1000 self defence incidences where a firearm is presented it is only fired something like 10 out of those 1000 times. Well, according to John Lott Jr. anyways. This tells me that when an aggressor sees a firearm pointed at thier person, they generally form the opinion that the self defence shooter means business and that's usually thier cue to jet. It seems to me that you gave "stompy" there that very impression... :)

[Tanzer]

Eltorrente, Doublenaught,
We are all different, I was trying to de-escalate and buy time. Putting an event into words doesn't always draw the perfect picture. This happened fast, or so it seemed. He seemed mad that I was ignoring him, so I gave a polite but firm answer - not a threat or retort. Right or not, that was my attempt to satisfy him, hopefully have him swear at me and leave. Personally, I don't have a lot of experience with crazies (except my ex-wife),but that's another story. Not having been there, you may not realize how difficult it was to get a 14 year old girl who was almost frozen into a high SUV, while my oblivious teenage son was checking his pockets for a state quarter for his collection. I've questioned myself several times, even to the point where I tested how fast I could climb into my car, And still doubt I could do it without turning my back. One thing I do know from working with behavior disorder teens - things can happen fast. I think you can also imagine that the adrenaline was pumpin'. When faced with a quick decision, what goes through my mind at least is "don't blow it". Hindsight is 20/20. Next time? hope there isn't one. I hope nothing like this happens to you. If it does, I won't feel bad at all if you handle it better than I did.
Stay safe.