Rapid fire

[timothy75]

I was just wondering when a defensive shooting would require rapid firing upon an assailant. Is a person expected to asses the threat shot by shot? And could a person get in trouble for shooting an attacker too many times? I know its a broad question but would like to get some of your thoughts. Thanks

[DougO83]

If I'm not mistaken, it would be a case of excessive force if you put a large number of rounds downrange at a BG. Not to mention how much danger you are potentially causing for innocent bystanders. It probably varies from state to state.

[MDman]

Sorry for not giving you the answer you want, but I suggest reading the book "the stranger" by Albert Camus. Its not very long and a big part of the book has to do with him shooting a person in self defense.



Its just one of my favorite books, sorry for advertising it.

[Skunk]

timothy75,

My take on your question would be that you should shoot until the threat no longer is a threat. For example, if the bad guy is down and incapacitated, but still alive after one shot, I would stop shooting at that point. However, if it takes 6 rounds to make the bad guy drop, then six it would be. This of course is after you've made sure the bad guy is really a threat to your life and is positively threatening you.

However, there are people on this forum that have forgotten more about these situations than I'll ever know, so before you go shooting anyone, wait until you've heard from them. :D

MDman,

I've read "The Stranger" by Albert Camus, and you are correct. It is an excellent book and should be a must read for nearly anyone.

Skunk

[Bruxley]

YUP....Shoot as many rounds, as quickly as safely possible until the threat stops. THEN stop shooting. Your to SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT not shoot to kill. Subtle difference but a CRITICAL one to your post incident freedom.

The 'failure to stop' action is 2 chest, 1 head....still coming.....2 chest, 1 head.....still coming.....and so on. Properly performed takes 3 bullets to take effect. Silhouette practice this A LOT with your SD ammo not just your cheaper target ammo.

[Lurper]

The short answer is that a defensive situation requires rapid fire every time. Putting lead on the target quickly is the primary concern. It is what will save your life more than any other skill or tactic. Shoot until the threat is removed, don't assess the effect of the shots. Keep shooting until he stops, reload and cover him until the police arrive.

[Maser]

Well, the HD gun in my house is a 12 gauge. Highly doubt a 2nd shot would be needed.

[shy_man]

In a defensive situation and you have one assailant, perhaps 2 bullets is enough especially if you used a .45 caliber pistol or even a lower caliber if placed on the right target. What is our purpose in shooting an assailant, to stop his agression or to kill him on the spot? for me rapid fire to an assailant is not that necessary.

Thanks

[Yithian]

Very rarely is an invader alone.

I'm a firm believer of "Shoot till they dont move."
Take cover and listen for anyone else.

If the BG can move an arm and I hear someone else, I'm giving the guy on the ground another.

They are the offender in your home.
If you fear for your life still, there is no excessive force.

This is why landlords are required to give Notice of Entry. By Law.

For on the open streets?
You should never pull a gun unless there is a physical threat given.
If you fear for your life, take cover and pull it out. "Cover" may consist of just running side to side.
If you fear for your life, again, don't hesitate to take them down fully, and wait for any other threat.
Most BG's on the street are with someone else.

[shy_man]

At my age of 49 right now, I can say I have come accross to several bad guys, be a civilian or a bad eggs in the mil or le. I had le and mil friends and still shooting actively. There were people that if they describe in the preparation of using their guns be it pistol or rifle it seems that there are so much deadly forces in the streets or everywhere in their community. In my whole time of having a pistol, I found myself that the only use of my guns is shooting them at the ranges. I carry but it is just for the sake for self defense in case of unexpected assailant to my very person, but I have never been ecountered such BGs trying to take my life or hurt me physically in the streets of Metro Manila except when I was a 20 years old that I experienced being a target of a mad military man in my province which I had shared in this forum when I was still working in the middle east that was 16 years ago. But then, that time I never have interest in guns. Unlike now, I feel sick if I don't have a gun, that even it is expensive to have one here I am trying to save just to have one 1911 and one M16 AR.

My point in sharing this one is that, to my analysis it is nice to have a carry pistol and house guns but having them especially for carry and having the intention to kill or pump a bullets to a simple thief, snatchers, and to an arrogant bystanders on the street, I will never used my carry pistol to an unarmed asaillant. Just my personal opinion.

This is the shy_man now who is 49 years old and still crazy of playing with pistols and rifles.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/Panther_Claw/Picture026.jpg

[Dannavy85]

Best bet is center of mass, two tap shot. Evaluate and shoot a third.

[threegun]

for me rapid fire to an assailant is not that necessary.


If you want to give yourself the best chance of survival against an armed assailent with you only having a handgun you had better put a lot of lead into him ASAP. Handguns are anemic compared to HP rifles or shotguns so multiple hits are best. Plus the act of putting your adversary under duress is very important in reducing his ability to hit you.

My vote is fire as fast as you can make resonably well placed hits for the given range and target size. Stop when the treat is over and only when the threat is over.

[Coreyh]

Q. Why did you shoot him 17 times?
A. Because I shot him 16 times and he was still a threat.

Pretty much all you need to consider on the question of how many times to shoot

[biere]

I consider emptying the mag to be excessive if you never check to assess the target during that time.

I carry a single stack 1911 as well.

I go for 3 or 4 shots on target and then slow enough to assess the target.

I also want to see if there are any other threats that I missed noticing.

In my last gun class the instructor said something similar and he carried a glock 17.

I basically want to make sure I survive the situation but I also don't see the need to empty a magazine into the target unless the threat just keeps coming.

Maybe it is just the movies for me but if I empty the magazine into a target that is turning or falling down I somewhat expect it to be noticed and I don't want to explain why I shot someone on the ground or with their back turned to me.

I am not about to say I am an expert. I hope to never find out what is needed in real life to stop a target.

But I think just planning to empty the gun might not be the best solution.

[threegun]

Beire, What if the threat is still holding a weapon. What if the guy falls but is still alive with his gun? You slow to asses the threat and he gets a lucky shot off. I was trained to fire AFAP until the threat is over.

[Hard Ball]

"I was just wondering when a defensive shooting would require rapid firing upon an assailant. Is a person expected to asses the threat shot by shot?" "

This "shoot-look-shoot" doctrine is a great way to get yourself killed. Lurper had it right when he said

"a defensive situation requires rapid fire every time. Putting lead on the target quickly is the primary concern. It is what will save your life more than any other skill or tactic. Shoot until the threat is removed, don't assess the effect of the shots. Keep shooting until he stops, reload and cover him until the police arrive."

[ok41]

My philosophy is 'don't shoot till you think he's done, shoot till he thinks he's done!'

[normal]

There are many different methods taught on this, such as double tap, two to the body and one to the head, etc... I was taught by my father, who was a police firearms instructor in the days of the revolver, to fire 3 center mass and check for a threat. If needed, 3 more then reload (on a revolver of course). I still practice the 3 and assess rule and feel good about it. I carry an XD 45 that has a higher capacity, but 3 is an effective number and should not damage you in court (unfortunately always a consideration) for excessive. The key to any of the methods is to PRACTICE. They have to be second nature. I always spend range time drawing and firing 3. It should be instinctive, whether it is a double tap or a triple.

[threegun]

Normal, After the first shot the bad guy tosses his gun away and you see this do you fire the other two as your father instructed?

[enikkor]

My defensive practice, is to shoot 3 times as fast as I can to the center of
mass, using paper human target. I'll do this sequence about 20-30 times.

I'm satisfied if the 3 shots lands in the COM.

I'm in the learning stage and my defensive pistol at present is a Sig Sauer
226. I'm afraid at first that my first shot will miss, because of the
DA/SA difference. I know if it is SA only, my time will be faster.

So, God forbids, as a last resort, that's how I am programmed to do.

[biere]

If you fire as fast as possable until the threat is over, how do you know when the threat is over?

Basically there are a lot of variables.

How many rounds does it take to empty the magazine? For a glock 36 it takes not so many rounds. For a glock 17 it takes a lot more, almost 3 times as many as the glock 36.

Part of the pause in my thinking is to see if the threat has friends or not. I don't want to fire until empty and get charged while reloading.

And to some extent I feel we can think while shooting. It is just that for me the first 3 or 4 rounds are what are the most important. That gun just came out of the holster and the threat is real so I am going to put 3 or 4 rounds into it and start moving away from the threat while hoping to find some cover.

My instructor said once he decides to draw his gun he is going to fire one round just because it is so automatic to him. This is with him drawing because he feels threatened.

Overall I just look at what we have for the jury of today and wonder about emptying a mag into a threat. I wonder about the threat being #1 with others in waiting so I am not sure I want to just automatically shoot until empty.

We all have to decide for ourselves what we will do.

One thing I think about when on the sidewalk in a crowd is stray rounds.

At home I don't worry as much about stray rounds since I am in a brick building and the walls can stop most handgun rounds. The windows can't, but it is better than a crowded sidewalk where any misses are likely to hit innocent people.

I fully agree with being judged by 12 rather than carried by 6, but in today's world I want to try and cover as many angles as possable.

So for me 3 or 4 rounds while getting the gun out of the holster and up to full extension works for me, the class I took was more a point shooting class than the regular class where you fire once your sights are lined up.

Once that is done I need to assess all information available and make decisions from there.

[Lurper]

If you fire as fast as possable until the threat is over, how do you know when the threat is over?
It will be obvious.

How many rounds does it take to empty the magazine? For a glock 36 it takes not so many rounds. For a glock 17 it takes a lot more, almost 3 times as many as the glock 36.
Immaterial, no one said empty the magazine. You should fire and continue to fire until the threat is removed. If it take one round, great. If it take 15, great.

Part of the pause in my thinking is to see if the threat has friends or not.
Again sort of immaterial, you can't remove two threats without removing one first. Take out the first threat, then check for the second. Disengaging to assess the situation or effect of your shots before the first threat is removed is a fatal tactic.

My instructor said once he decides to draw his gun he is going to fire one round just because it is so automatic to him. This is with him drawing because he feels threatened.

WOW! You may want to find a different instructor. So, if he decides to draw and the BG drops his weapon, he is going to fire a round anyway because it is automatic? Programming yourself to fire automatically whenever you draw is not a good idea. Waiting to draw until you have decided to shoot is also not a good idea. Ideally, you want to draw your weapon well before you take the shot. You can't always do that, but you should whenever possible. When you percieve a threat it doesn't hurt to put your hand on your weapon and when you have identified a threat, draw. This reduces the amount of time you need to react. From the holster, I can put 6 rounds on target in about 1.6 to 1.8 seconds. With the gun at a ready position, the time is cut in half. In a defensive situation, time is not on your side. You want to remove the threat in the fastest way possible. Also, many times just the presence of a weapon defuses the situation.

I can't stress enough to not pre-program yourself to fire x number of rounds or to fire x rounds and assess. That will get you killed. Don't think, see! What you see will tell you what to do. If you fire 5 rounds and you see the guy fall to the ground dropping his weapon, don't fire number 6. Do a quick situationals scan (360 if necessary) with the gun at full extension. If there are additional threats, address them. If not, keep the BG covered, reload and wait. Do additional scans every 10 - 15 seconds or so. If you see the BG drop his weapon before you fire your first shot, don't fire it.

[Feanaro]

I don't think shooting and assessing are mutually exclusive. Brian Enos stresses seeing quite a bit in "Practical Shooting." Seeing what you need to see is a big part of what he writes about. Shoot until the target is down. If you can't see something like that while shooting fast, practice. Shooting fast doesn't mean yanking the trigger as quickly as possible. You can shoot quick, accurately, and with awareness. The obstacle here is that Unconcious Competence, as Doctor Piazza would say, is required.

[Lurper]

I don't think shooting and assessing are mutually exclusive.
In fact they are mutually inclusive. What you need to not do is conscioulsy try to figure out what is happening. What you see dictates what you should do.

[Lavid2002]

Practise a double tap to get two shots downrange asap.....anyone who will come after you after being shot two times is clearly planing on taking you out to the death, if he can moove a pinky he can turn your face inside out.....watch him and take him out if neccesary, this mand life is clearly not as valuable as anone elses!;)

[threegun]

Lurper, Can you give us a training regimen that aids in maintaining situational awareness after eliminating the initial threat?

I fire whatever I decide to shoot at the target then bring my pistol back to my chest and let my wrists relax downward and slightly to the side while scanning left and right. What do you do.

[Dannavy85]

My defensive practice, is to shoot 3 times as fast as I can to the center of
mass, using paper human target. I'll do this sequence about 20-30 times.

excellence. This should be the standard practice for home defense courses.

[Lurper]

What I recommend is to keep the gun at full extension (when the environment allows) and do a 360 degree arc. Then return to the initial threat. Depending on how many rounds you have fired, reload and return to full extension. After that, seek a better position if possible keep the initial threat covered and scan the area just moving your head until the cavalry arrives. I don't advocate lowering the pistol, unloading, setting it down or anything else. Keep the threat covered until the police arrive.

[Hard Ball]

+ 2 Lurper

[gunmetal]

Just my views, some of which have already been covered....

Your mechanism for incapacitating the adversary will either be via a (probably lucky) disrupted CNS or by blood loss. Since handguns are relatively poor stoppers and blood loss will take a while to incapacitate the attacker, continue to shoot until the threat has been observably removed.

Shoot as fast as you can reliably make good hits. Do not shoot faster.

Do not count on 1 round stopping the attacker.

Do not count on 2-3 rounds stopping the attacker.

Be prepared for attackers with body armor. This may mean placing shots into the pelvis. Some trainers advise placing the first shot into the pelvic region (I lean towards this philosophy myself).

Also, after the threat has been removed to the best of your ability to ascertain, you could keep your weapon in a ready position, or alternatively, re-holster it but keep your hand on it. The idea here is to keep yourself from getting blown away by responding officers.

[biere]

I suppose a lot of this comes down to what comes across in typed words vs. an actual in person discussion with someone.

For now I am not going to worry about correcting any points since I am not sure I will correct them.

[Yithian]

My thoughts on my method are based on the "Fight or Flight" reaction.
I expect I would do both.

I never thought of any 360 turn to look around.
I would be more afraid of being hit while I was looking around. (Second shooter?)

Just take cover.
Concentrate fire on one BG and get where its hard to be seen.
Heck, laying down in a gutter is better than remaining vertical on a vacant street.

If I find myself in a firefight, (more than one BG) the only thing that I would find difficult is being sure to get the first guy down.
I already know I'm gonna run like a pansie and try to return fire. LOL

One a side note, if you are worried about neighbors/bystanders, reload or buy Ballistic tipped ammo for your handgun.
They loose more energy on sheet-rock than any other type of projectile.
Yes there will be 'pepper' on the other side but tiny pieces of flack hold less energy than large pieces or full size bullets.
I would rather feel bad that my neighbor had bandages, than see my neighbor have stitches or a coffin.
Another advantage is that some can penetrate body armor. Not always. But they can.

[threegun]

Yith,
Heck, laying down in a gutter is better than remaining vertical on a vacant street.


Understand that bullets flatten out on hard surfaces so all rounds that would have missed low and short are going to be eaten if you lay down on concrete.

[Ian2005]

Wow some of these responces... I've had a good laugh at most of them and then I remembered the forum I'm in.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Firing multiple rounds.. let see hmm.. yeah shot till the BG is no longer a threat. If your still shooting a corpse on the ground flopping around after each impact, yeah, you might have some trouble with the law.

Common sense applies. Duh.

[ATW525]

Slidelock seems like a good time to stop and assess to me. Honestly, if it's not blatantly obvious the fight is over before my gun is empty, why on earth would I want to lay off the trigger to have a better look??

Posssibly I'd shoot the bad guy an extra shot or three by the time my brain registers he's not a threat and tells my finger to stop shooting, but I don't think that would overly complicate my case to unreasonable degree.

[easyG]

I recommend shooting the target at least three times before pausing to assess.

[threegun]

If your still shooting a corpse on the ground flopping around after each impact, yeah, you might have some trouble with the law

Never saw a corpse as a deadly threat.......oh wait dawn of the dead LOL. As Lurper said you will know. My friend shot a robber and instantly after the first shot the robber dropped the gun and ran. He knew instantly and before he could squeeze of the next shot. He doesn't know how he had time to know but he knew. Perhaps your brain processes things faster than normal under stress like that who knows.

[uzimon]

when would R.F. be required?
remember KORESH and the video?
now im not recommending opening fire on atf, but say youre in a shtf scenario, like in NEW ORLEANS, where there was roving gangs of maggots going into folks homes.
shoot right thru the walls, ceilings, floors, etc.
if several guys just breached your home, just lay a string of fire through the walls.
then they'll know they picked the wrong house:cool:

[mattro]

This guy got his arm bone shattered, foot destryoed, and his pelvis shattered and kept firing at police. When would you stop shooting?

http://members.cox.net/areskslan/PA%20Officer%20Involved%20Shooting%20112906.ppt#2