Head Shots

[Freakdaddy]

Since we've had a couple of threads lately on getting shot in the head and hostage situations, there is a question I have and hopefully someone can help.

Touching on the hostage situation, let's say the BG has a knife to the victims throat or a gun to the head (cocked revolver or pistol, probably DA) and you decide to take the head shot. I know the BG falling backwards in the knife situation will have a stronger possibility of cutting the victims throat but hopefully not too severe as there will be less force involved. But with the gun scenario, will the shock to the nervous system cause enough momentary muscle spasm that the finger could still fire the weapon? I know it is less of a chance with a DA pistol as the trigger pull is heavier but what about a cocked revolver or SA only pistol as it requires less pull? What if he is already exerting pressure on the trigger prior to head shot?

Thanks for any input.

[David Armstrong]

In a nutshell, you don't know and can't predict what the result will be. Thus, the proper response is not to take the shot. Wait until a more favorable opportunity presents itself.

[RedneckFur]

+1 David. That is the very reason I'd hesitate to shoot somone with a hostage, no matter who they were.

[MacGille]

I was going to weigh in on this, but on second thought it is so dumb that I won't. Hollywood has already done this to death.(pun intended):)

[TWB]

With a handgun, this is a very touchy situation. Handguns are notorious for acting strangely in and around the skull. IF proper penetration and aim can be assured, the desired disconnect between the head and everything below can be achieved. (Maybe with one of those magical Nytrillium bullets.)

This kind of shot can be made with a decent caliber rifle, both from the increased accuracy angle, but also from the increased energy to plow reliably on a path directly through the brainstem.

A brainstem disconnect will do what is desired. Being there with the skill and power is the problem. Done correctly, there will be no twitches or other striated muscle tension.

I know that John Farnam has been looking into brainstem targeting, but I do not know if he has incorporated it into his training, or not.

Hits that do not disconnect the electrical system at the brainstem are a crapshoot. I've seen a few head shots with handguns, including one that was dead center between the eyebrows. This guy was walking around and talking to people like nothing had happened. The hole appeared to be about 9mm or .38 cal. Unfortunately, I never found out the actual path of the bullet. Others ceased conscious activity immediately, but not all of them.

Personally, I wouldn't risk it unless there was no doubt that the criminal planned to kill his hostage within the next few seconds.

twb

[chrisandclauida2]

lets say that the answers provided prove the huge lack of critical knowledge in this area.

there is but one off switch. it isnt the brain stem. medulla oblongata is the switch. a shot thru this about 2 inch round area will shut down a person. by shut down i mean everything shuts off the body goes limp and falls likes dead weight.

any other head shot will not have this effect. you might get this effect or you might get a spasm or tightening of muscles and if this happens then you get fists squeezing guns going off etc.

unless you hit the off switch you might not get any effect other than the physical movement from impact. the person may well die but ther could live and be fully functioning for seconds to hours.

this subject is often undiscussable because people preconceptions that head shot = dead causes them to argue or make stands that have no basis in fact but are fully based in movie magic.

the bottom line in all situations is there is only one shot that will shut a person down. it isnt a heart shot headshot or brain stem shot. while all these may very well kill there can be second to days where the one who is dieing can still kill others.

dont believe me what about the girl who just lived thru the separation of her brain stem to her cord. this kills 99.999999999999999999% instantly but she lived thru it and regained all feeling in her body.

99.99999999999% are outstanding odds but what if a cocked 1911 is pressed into your skull with a finger on the trigger. the sniper takes a shot and shoots a bit high and you dont get the instant kill or shut down. the guy tightens all his muscles from the trauma and bang goes the 1911. he dies within a minute or so and so do you.

head shots have the highest probability of one shot stops but only trained snipers or shooters who know anatomy and consistently shoot under moa can hit this almost automatically. there is still variables like the dead man hiccups or something and the sniper misses. or he is with some idiotic department using 556 as a sniper round or etc etc etc.

definitely a difficult shot. lots of us may be able to shoot under moa at 100 yards on paper all day but do it looking thru a scope at someone when you have 2 or more lives on the line.

trying this with a hand gun is lunacy. there are recorded instances where a hand gun made instant stop on hostage takers. usually these are short range where the shooter was able to get perfect position unknown to the hostage taker.

one instant i remember was a guy has a gun to a woman's head backing down a street. he had just killed someone else so time is a ticking. an officer snuck up behind a van. the guy backing down the street with a gun to the woman's head walked right to where the officer placed his 357 in the right ear and fired. the hostage taker never even knew what happened he is just instantly dead. the officer is a hero, a murderer and hostage taker is dead and the lady will never be the same but she is alive and thankful..

you can see how the hostage taker could have flinched and the lady would be injured or dead also and then everything is different.

i hope none of us have to be in a position to make this decision.

[Lurper]

Take the shot. If you have the ability. All of this speculation on what will happen is immaterial. The odds are just as good that the BG will not be able to complete his action as he will.

The reason that police don't shoot is because they control the situation. They set up perimeters, control access and communication. When was the last time you heard of a PD letting a hostage taker get away with a hostage?

As a civilian, you don't have the ability to control the situation other than to take the shot. The people I have seen shot IRL (all w/handguns), dropped like a sack of potatoes. The odds are in your favor that taking the shot will end the situation. They are not in your favor that the hostage taker will spare the hostage's life.

[Odd Job]

There is no right answer, it all depends on circumstances.
If there is room for negotiation, then that is what I'll go for. If it is a family member and I absolutely can't allow them to be taken away, I might shoot. Terminal effects are variable...
But you can't have a blanket decision here and now in the comfort of an armchair.

[brickeyee]

Reflexes do not depend on the brain stem at all.
They are strictly a sensory nerve to spinal cord insertion and back to muscle.
Want to find out if there is no reflex left?

Strictly a Hollywood shot.

One of the resaons for checking reflex response during a neuro exam is to see if the reflex is present, but also if the CNS inhibits the reflex correctly.
Without the inhibition of the reflex loop by the brain, reflexes apppear hyper-active.
The patella reflex, for example, becomes a large jerk of the entire lower leg instead of the typical small reaction that the brain inhibits quickly. Any defect in the cord (or higher) that slows or prevents the inhibition indicates a possible problem.

[markj]

Shoot the hiostage, then he has nothing on ya. 007 did it :) to his boss....

Lets all be miami vice crockets and shoot the guy in his head, I saw it on TV so it must be true.......

How could anyone shoot in the direction of a loved one? I am glad I will never have to face that. Anything else on TV today?

[Dwight55]

One of the best tactics I have heard for this situation (IF it can be employed) is to begin circling the bg and the hostage. Circle clockwise if the weapon is in his right hand, . . . opposite if in the left.

Two things happen here, . . . you control him by making him move, . . . keeping him off balance to a certain degree. AND you buy time for the LEO's or other help to arrive.

A third thought also comes in, . . . three people are walking, hostage, bg, and good guy. No one can afford to look down to where their feet are going, . . . if it keeps up for any amount of time, . . . someone will trip and fall. Two out of three of them are the bg and the hostage, . . . allowing the good guy a good shot if he is ready for it.

On a personal note, . . . if the slug has taken my son or my wife or anyone I love hostage, . . . and I have my weapon, . . . he will not leave with them. Period.

That is a decision I made a long time ago, . . . and I have not changed my mind on it. I'll take the first good shot I get, . . . if it is less than 25 feet, . . . I only need half his head, a shoulder, a knee, a hip, . . . 230 grains of lead making a .45 hole somewhere in his body, . . . might distract him enough that we can end this here, . . . now. If not, . . . then he will just plain have to shoot me.

I've got 9 rounds to throw at him, . . . and I'll have a reload in my off hand if I can, . . . he just may get tired of trying to duck all of them.

May God bless,
Dwight

[David Armstrong]

Take the shot. If you have the ability. All of this speculation on what will happen is immaterial. The odds are just as good that the BG will not be able to complete his action as he will.
Then why would your default be to take the shot? Given that you are postulating a 50% chane of failure in your actions, why go to that action if there are alternatives?
The reason that police don't shoot is because they control the situation.
No, the reason police don't shoot is that it is rarely necessary to do so, and the odds of success are fairly low.
The odds are in your favor that taking the shot will end the situation. They are not in your favor that the hostage taker will spare the hostage's life.
I'd love to see something that supports either of those conclusions, as they both contradict virtually everything I have seen, been taught, and found in my research, particularly the latter.

[Brian@ITC]

IF you are able to make the shot and take the attacker immediately out of the fight, I don’t think that the knife will have enough pressure to cut someone’s throat unless it is razor sharp. What if the attacker were to move and lose their balance, would they cut the hostages throat then? So, moving around the HT and hostage could be a bad thing—agreed?

If they have a gun cocked to the hostages head and you shoot them, are you 100% SURE that you are going to kill them IMMEDIATELY? I am not convinced that most pistol rounds will IMMEDIATELY end the fight even with a head shot most of the time. I don’t know of any statistics that show this one way or the other.

Can you REALLY make the shot if the hostage is a loved one? That is a lot of pressure to deal with and making a head shot under that kind of stress may take a drastic toll on your shooting ability! And, let’s not forget that if the HT moves when you pull the trigger who knows WHO you are going to hit?

This is a very serious matter and no one can tell you what to do. It is based upon the circumstances and your ability to remain calm in the situation. Whatever decision you make, YOU are going to have to live with that decision for the rest of your life!

If you train your spouse on how to deal with someone who has a knife around her throat, there are things that she could do to help reduce the likelihood of the knife cutting her regardless. That would help you to eliminate one factor in the decision making process.

[jfrey123]

Reminds me of a movie:

Harry: "Alright, pop quiz: The airport. Gunman with one hostage, he's using her for cover, he's almost to the plane. You're a hundred feet away. (Long pause) Jack?"
Jack: "Shoot the hostage.""
Harry: "What?"
Jack: "Take her out of the equation. Go for the good wound and he can't get to the plane with her. Clear shot"
Harry: "You are deeply nuts, you know that? 'Shoot the hostage'... jeez..."

:D From the original Speed film.

[Brian@ITC]

That's funny because that is what I was thinking of when I replied. But I couldn't remember what movie it was from. It also depends on how you and the Mrs. are getting along that particular moment! :D

[TWB]

brickeyee,

Which reflex arc are you talking about?

twb

[TWB]

deleted

[chrisandclauida2]

if you want to see what happens when the off switch is hit watch this recent video of Darnell Wilson knocking out an opponent.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5639846514817284982&q=darnell+wilson+knock+out+video&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

we have all seen when the lights dont completely go out and the person is fighting to avoid shutting down. this is the danger of a misplaced head shot.

when the off switch isnt instantly hit the shootee can still kill up untill he goes under.

a round to the medulla oblongata will have the effect the knockout punch did in the video. but not all head shots or brain trauma will have the same effect. like i have explained when the off switch is hit or like trauma occurs to the brain there is no spasms no clenching of the hands nothing but complete and instantaneous limpness and they cannot accidentally or purposefully cut a throat or pull a trigger. im not saying the trigger wont be pressed by the finger hitting something but that they couldn't press it even if they wanted to on purpose.

[Double Naught Spy]

Two things happen here, . . . you control him by making him move, . . . keeping him off balance to a certain degree. AND you buy time for the LEO's or other help to arrive.
Yes, but at the same time, you are off balance, moving, and are unlikely to be able to make the perfectly aimed shot when needed.

Besides, with the exception of dramatic fiction on TV, just how many times have you seen a bad guy with a hostage you can just circle at your whim?

A third thought also comes in, . . . three people are walking, hostage, bg, and good guy. No one can afford to look down to where their feet are going, . . . if it keeps up for any amount of time, . . . someone will trip and fall. Two out of three of them are the bg and the hostage, . . . allowing the good guy a good shot if he is ready for it.

So with 1/3 a chance that you go down and the bad guy then shoots you.

[Lurper]

DA
Police tactics do not apply to civilians. The reason Police don't shoot IS because they control the situation. They secure the perimeter, which keeps the hostage taker from going anywhere, then they wear him down psychologically to get him to surrender. If someone is in your house with a family member hostage trying to leave, that is a totally different situation. I'd like to see evidence that supports the idea that letting a BG leave your house with a family member as hostage is wise.

You postulated 50% success rate from what I wrote. I postulated 100% when I wrote it. My point is that no one can tell you what will happen when you shoot someone anywhere, not just in the head. But, I would be willing to wager that fatal or not, the hostage taker will not be even thinking about shooting the hostage if you shot him in the head. His first thought will be the realization that you just shot him, at which point in time the second round would be hitting him.

No one can guarantee that the BG will kill the hostage or not if he leaves either. But you can guarantee that the hostage will now be left to his or her own devices and at the mercy of the BG's whim. For me, that is not acceptable. Having said that, I need to reiterate that if you don't know that you have the ability to make the shot, then don't.

[brickeyee]

"...the hostage taker will not be even thinking about shooting the hostage if you shot him in the head."

The problem is that there can be any number of non-voluntary physical actions following a head shot, including contractions of muscle groups.
Want to find out if that includes pulling the trigger?

Exactly what will happen to the neurological system and the muscles is not consistent.
One of the signs of brain death is the 'cerebrate disconnect' posture.
The person looks like they have 'put there hands up' as they lie there.
Hands may be clenched, but not always.
It means the cortex is not in control anymore, but the muscles work just fine.

This is not directly applicable if you hit the medulla, but no doctor is going to place a bet on the immediate repsonse of the muscle groups in the body.

[Lurper]

The problem is that there can be any number of non-voluntary physical actions following a head shot, including contractions of muscle groups.
The problem is that you cannot predict what if any involuntary reactions will or will not occur. So, to base not taking the shot on that is no more supported by science than not. Although it would be interesting to see if there was any data to support it (actuall incidents, not extrapolation or theory). Assuming that the BG will pull the trigger is pure speculation and there is no way to determine if he can or will. However, what you can determine is that if you let the hostage taker leave, the situation is out of your control and the odds are against your loved one's survival.

[brickeyee]

Uncontrolled contractions of muscle groups following CNS injury is pretty well documented.
The more powerful muscle group typically overcomes others and the movement occurs.
You are welcome to volunteer for either position in the experiment.

Allowing a hostage taker to leave is a different issue.

[Lurper]

Brick
My point is that you cannot predict what if any contractions or any other reaction will occur. Not that they don't or cannot. You don't know if they are going to drop like a sack of potatoes or flop like a fish. What I disagree with is the implication that if you shoot them they will pull the trigger. Your previous post summed it up well:
but no doctor is going to place a bet on the immediate repsonse of the muscle groups in the body.

[newarcher]

Personally....knowing the human nature of the trash that has his arm around my loved one's neck and a knife to their throat....I would take the shot to the face.

I am going to guess that there is a 95% chance the BG will kill the hostage if I do nothing. I will take my chances that a good shot to the forehead will change his way of thinking and in my mind there is less of a chance that my loved one will be hurt by some muscle twitch than by his free will.

I think that reasoning with the guy in a calm manner and saying "if you put down the knife and don't harm ____ I will let you leave...I don't want to shoot you or anyone else". However, you aren't leaving with ______". I think that MOST bad guys will take the easy way out and drop the knife. After they did, I would shoot him several times for spite.

New

[BikerRN]

In any "Hostage Situation" time is on the side of the good guys.

Personally I wouldn't take the shot. I will contain the situation and let a negotiator "talk it out". It's not as "romantic" as the "Happiness is a Green Light" crowd, but in most instances it works.

The BG knows that if he kills his hostage all his bargaining power is moot. It is in his best interest to keep the hostage alive. Besides, there aren't many people around who have the skill to make a head shot in such a tense situation, and shooting paper is a poor imitation of reality.

Biker

[David Armstrong]

Police tactics do not apply to civilians.
Sometimes they don’t, sometimes they do. I would suggest taking a head shot at an individual holding a hostage is pretty much taking a head shot at an individual holding a hostage. Doesn’t matter much if the shooter is a LEO or not.
The reason Police don't shoot IS because they control the situation.
No, the reason they don’t like to take the shot is that there is entirely too much uncertainty around that shot to try it if there are any other options.
I'd like to see evidence that supports the idea that letting a BG leave your house with a family member as hostage is wise.
I doubt there is any, and I don’t think anyone has suggested that as a plan of action.
You postulated 50% success rate from what I wrote. I postulated 100% when I wrote it.
You wrote “The odds are just as good that the BG will not be able to complete his action as he will.” That is a 50% rate. You cannot get a 100% success rate if the odds are just as good either way.
His first thought will be the realization that you just shot him, at which point in time the second round would be hitting him.
That is a heck of an assumption with very little to support it. In fact, I would suggest just the opposite, that the majority of the evidence indicates the shot would likely fail to achive the desired goal(s).
No one can guarantee that the BG will kill the hostage or not if he leaves either.
True. But nobody has said to just let the BG walk off with the hostage, AFAIK. There is a world of options between “shoot BG right now” and “open door for BG to leave with hostage.”

[David Armstrong]

The BG knows that if he kills his hostage all his bargaining power is moot. It is in his best interest to keep the hostage alive. Besides, there aren't many people around who have the skill to make a head shot in such a tense situation, and shooting paper is a poor imitation of reality.
dingdingdingding! We have a winner, folks!

[Lurper]

Quote:
Police tactics do not apply to civilians.

Sometimes they don’t, sometimes they do. I would suggest taking a head shot at an individual holding a hostage is pretty much taking a head shot at an individual holding a hostage. Doesn’t matter much if the shooter is a LEO or not.

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the incident happens to a civilian and the choices are take the shot or let the BG escape with the hostage. If that is the case, my reply(s) is the same.

Quote:
The reason Police don't shoot IS because they control the situation.

No, the reason they don’t like to take the shot is that there is entirely too much uncertainty around that shot to try it if there are any other options.

Again, if the only options are to take the shot or let the hostage taker leave with the hostage,then they are going to take the shot. The only reason that other options are available is because the police control the situation, not because of the uncertainty of the shot. Taking the shot is a last resort doctrinally because of necessity. Some of the considerations are those which as a civilian I need not worry about like; what is the public reaction to me shooting him, have I exhausted all possible options before taking the shot, etc. If I read the situation correctly, it is you, him and the hostage. No police, no perimeter, no cavalry. In that case, IMO the answer is clear. There are no other options. It is either take the shot and risk him injuring/killing your loved one or let him leave.

As far as the BG's reaction; no one can predict what it will be.

[David Armstrong]

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the incident happens to a civilian and the choices are take the shot or let the BG escape with the hostage.
That is the first problem. Neither assumption is prescribed by the scenario.
Again, if the only options are to take the shot or let the hostage taker leave with the hostage,then they are going to take the shot.

But those usually aren’t the only options, LE or not.
Taking the shot is a last resort doctrinally because of necessity.

I don’t know where some folks get these ideas about how LE works. It is not a last choice shot because of necessity, it is a last choice because of unpredictability.
There are no other options. It is either take the shot and risk him injuring/killing your loved one or let him leave.
You seem to be the only one who has gotten hooked on this idea that the BG is trying to leave with the hostage. So yes, there are other options. ANd even if the BG is trying to leave there can be options in that situation, depending on a number of variables.

[Axion]

I think that reasoning with the guy in a calm manner and saying "if you put down the knife and don't harm ____ I will let you leave...I don't want to shoot you or anyone else". However, you aren't leaving with ______". I think that MOST bad guys will take the easy way out and drop the knife. After they did, I would shoot him several times for spite.

And knowing that is exactly why the bad guy won't give up the hostage easily. Why exactly do you think it's so hard for negotiators to get the bad buys to let hostages go? Because they know that once they do they lose all control over the situation.

[Spade Cooley]

If I was the hostage and the dead eye marksman had a rifle, I say take the shot. Don't try it with a pistol.

[easyG]

Try as I might, I cannot recall a single instance of the police letting someone who has taken a hostage go free.

The moment they took another person hostage they also set in motion a chain of events that only has one of four outcomes:

1...He releases the hostage and goes to jail and nobody dies.

2...He dies and the hostage is rescued.

3...The hostage dies and he survives but goes to jail.

4...Both he and the hostage die.

[Spade Cooley]

Two Colt Peacemakers in 45 Cal. in a Roy Rogers style fancy holster. A Mod 92 Winchester is leaning behind the front door. Naturally, everything is loaded. As back up I have two dobermans and a pit bull. I also have a good attorney on retainer for when the gun play is over.

The only thing I hate about wearing that rig when I'm wearing my skivvies is that silver is very cold to the skin.

[STLRN]

One thing you have also to take into account that although easy to do on a range, head shots are harder to do than we think.

From 3/7 (3rd Battalion, 7th Marines) AAR from operating in Al Qaim

Head shots sound great on the rifle range not as easy for a target running at full speed with an engagement window of 1 to 3 seconds. Also, not easy when fighting a religious zealot, adrenalin and whatever else pumped up, inside a house or building and you have to put five to ten rounds into him to kill him.

[FS2K]

While there are no guarantee's to anything I can almost guarantee you will never have to make that choice yourself, so don't worry about it. **** happens, plain and simple.
I agree with the others. This scenerio is fantasy. Even if you were a law enforcement officer in the very situation you described, the decision to shoot wouldn't be yours anyway. Your superiors would hold the responsibility of wether you take the shot or not.

[Musketeer]

I have thought about the situation and a true nightmare scenario for me is a one of my children or my wife being held by someone. FOr that reason I do practice some head shots at close reange (3 yards max) every time I am at the range. No more than 10% but enough to know I can do it with each of the guns I depend on for personal defense.

Would I take the shot? It depends. I would wait until the criminal's weapon was not immediately at my loved one's head. Time is normally on your side as the police should be on the way. As soon as the gun is off their head though I will take the shot.

I know what is said about fine motor skills under stress. I also know that in the two very near shooting I was involved in I sensed no loss of control during the incident. If anything I experienced what felt like hightenned clarity and focus. Immediately afterwards I shook uncontrollably, both times having bile come up into my mouth but managing not to completely blow chunks. I feel that if needed to I could take the shot.

The head shot is not the 100% stopper but it is the best we have. This is one reason I refuse to use something like a .22 or .32, I want enough power to punch through a skull (hopefully). Having to depend on a single headshot is NOT good, but then nothing about the scenario is good.

[eltorrente]

What does Ayoob say about this situation? I'm sure several people here have read his book(s).

[JoeBlackSpade]

I'm surprised to hear you invoke the name of Ayoob.

Haven't heard that name in years.

As for the thread, I'm a former Marine, head of security (SOG) at Camp David.

CQB (Close Quarters Battle), as we called it, is about 75% of all we did.

Weapons used include Mossberg 590 with first 2 rds. loaded as slugs, MP-5 variants, M-9 Beretta, M-16A2 (a few variants as well) and then a slew of much heavier weapons, on up to .50 cals and MK-19 automatic 'nade launchers.

We trained with all the gear, i.e., ANPVS (night vision), gas masks, MOPP gear, body armor, massive ammo and flash bangs.


Our guys were some of the best shooters in the world (IMO), and we frequently brought in outsiders up to our "hill" (Camp David is located on top of a mountain) to train us, a different guy every week. Our pool of trainers came from the FBI HRT, Maryland State Police, D.C. SWAT, etc. In addition to that, all of us went to CQB school in Virginia, as well as Basic and Advanced Security Guard school.

I went through 400- 800 rounds a week (each) for two years.

It is the best training I could possibly receive.


What did I learn regarding headshots?

First the standard answer: To stop a target, you want to place a double-tap on them and follow up with shots of opportunity: two to the chest, one to the head. We trained to scan the target, looking for opportunity. If he was wearing body armor, we shot 2 to the head, then 2 to the hip. If his head was low, while wearing a helmet, we'd go 2 to the hip. We had paper targets that depicted targets in various states of armor and dress.

Laying aside the matters of the CNS and autonomic responses, the key to being able to confidently engage a target under a high stress situation such as the one outlined above is TRAINING. If you aren't training with your weapon of choice, you won't be able to employ it in the time of need. If you have put the hours in at the range, then when the time comes, you won't even think- you'll react. And reaction is always faster than thought. Thinking involves weighing consequences, balancing fear, analyzing data with the conscious mind, debating within yourself. Reaction is fast and silent. When the target of opportunity appears, your body automatically does what you've trained it to do thousands of times before, and you eliminate the target. No thought involved.

In the case you described, with a hostage, and the only target of opportunity is a head-shot, lets describe it for what it is:

A skull is a sphere (irregular at that), not a pancake or steel target. Because of this, there is a much smaller impact area that can have the desired effect- roughly 2" X 2". If you hit outside that impact zone, directly in the center of that sphere, chances of deflection increase past the point of acceptability. That isn't to say that you can't take down a target with a head-shot at imperfect angles. Its just saying chances of deflection are higher if your aim isn't what it should be. The further outside of that desired center-mass you impact, the greater the chance of deflection. Think of it like pool (billiards) with a really small, fast cue ball, and your target is the 8 ball. :eek:

Now that we've put this in perspective, lets remember that if you are ever called on for a headshot, and you have to do it with a pistol/handgun, you'd better be dead on, aim center-mass, and squeeze it off smoothly. And take the shot twice (double tap).

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.:)

[Musketeer]

I'm surprised to hear you invoke the name of Ayoob.

Haven't heard that name in years.


He posts on this forum regularly and has columns in American Handgunner and Combat Handguns.

[JoeBlackSpade]

"Quote:
I'm surprised to hear you invoke the name of Ayoob.

Haven't heard that name in years."


He posts on this forum regularly and has columns in American Handgunner and Combat Handguns.






- It's been a long time since I've picked up either mag- at least 6 years, since I've been overseas for that long. Before that, I was an avid reader of both mags, and I've read many of his articles from back in the '90's. As for his posts, I am looking forward to reading them, since I'm a noob and still learning my way around.:)

[DeathRodent]

Peoples body's are built to fall forward when they go unconscious.

Think about it - think about the ways your knees bend? The way your neck beds?

Only on TV do people faint get shot, etc, etc, etc, and fall backwards. So if you see someone faint and fall backwards its because they are faking it and don't want to break their nose.

Not to say you won't go backwards if you slip or are pushed but when the body goes unconscious the knees bend, the head droops downward and forward, and the body falls face first.

So if you get a stop shot to the head the BG will not fall backwards cutting the victims throat.

[Double Naught Spy]

Peoples body's are built to fall forward when they go unconscious.

Think about it - think about the ways your knees bend? The way your neck beds?

Only on TV do people faint get shot, etc, etc, etc, and fall backwards. So if you see someone faint and fall backwards its because they are faking it and don't want to break their nose.

Cause and effect...People's bodies are not built to fall in any direction. They may tend to fall in a given direction, but it isn't some sort of design parameter.

Your logic on the knees is weird. Based on how the knees bend, a person will fall backwards. The ankles are more prone to let you fall forward, as it the waist. With that said, what causes the direction of falling is based on a variety of parameters, not just the orientation of the joints.

Here is a nifty clip of where fainting people are shown falling in all sorts of directions....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQJombZDO8

Notice that not all fall on their faces.

In watching some of the posted sniper and battlefield videos, there are folks to drop like rag dolls when suffering a CNS hit, and crumple down on top of themselves.

[David Armstrong]

Notice that not all fall on their faces.
Right. And fainting is quite different from getting shot. the shooting also carries with it the bodies flinch and reaction muscle movement, which can cause all sorts of unusual movements/directions.

A n ote since it was touched on by our Camp David friend, head shots don't always work, the ability to get through the skull is dependent on a lot of factors. I worked a case once where the victim was shot in the face close enough to get powder burns with a 2" .38. When we go to the scene he was up walking and talking. At the hospital they pulled the slug out through his nose, as it had bounced off bone and come to rest in the sinus cavity.

[threegun]

If given the choice of either taking the shot or letting the hostage taker leave with the hostage, I would have to shoot. Provided that it was within my abilities.

If there are other options I certainly can't see them. For me its end the situation or let them leave and hope the badguy lets them go alive. Perhaps David can provide us with the other options. Remember Lurpers assumptions are a family member taken hostage and the badguy wants to leave the scene with hostage. No cops just me, my family member, and the badguy. What are the options?

[BikerRN]

Who says the hostage taker is leaving?

For grins and giggles let's pretend we are in my house and my wife is the hostage. The hostage taker IS NOT LEAVING WITH THE HOSTAGE!

I will contain and control the situation until the local LEO's get there. The hostage taker is free to go at any time but I will not let a hostage be taken to another location, nor will I relenquish my weapons.

If the hostage taker kills the hostage, guess what? As I said before, all his bargaining power is moot. As far as head shots go, I'm a pretty good shot but have missed paper target headshots in competition, so I wouldn't attempt it.

Fantasy is one thing, reality is another.

Biker

[threegun]

Going by Lurpers scenario Biker.

[DougO83]

I think that reasoning with the guy in a calm manner and saying "if you put down the knife and don't harm ____ I will let you leave...I don't want to shoot you or anyone else". However, you aren't leaving with ______". I think that MOST bad guys will take the easy way out and drop the knife. After they did, I would shoot him several times for spite.

I would watch this kind of mentality in a public forum, New. I was previously addressed that it is possible to bring this information and discussion up in a courtroom. Though I am surely no legal expert, is it a good idea to spout that considering it could be used against you if you, God forbid, end up in this kind of situation?

[David Armstrong]

Remember Lurpers assumptions are a family member taken hostage and the badguy wants to leave the scene with hostage.
Let us also remember that Lurpers assumptions are very different than the original scenario. That is the problem with so much of this nonsense, there are an infinite number of paths in the scenarios and thus options depending on how each individual wants to make their own assumptions. For example, I might assume that in this situation I would have a box of small ball bearings that I could spread across the floor making it impossible for the BG to keep his balance when he tried to leave with a hostage. Hooray, problem solved!
For me its end the situation or let them leave and hope the badguy lets them go alive. Perhaps David can provide us with the other options.
Sure. There are lots of options that involve taking some action other than shooting. Shove the couch in front of the door. Lock the deadbolt and swallow the key. Pretend not to understand what the BG is saying, and talk back in a foreign language. Talk a whole lot. Again, the BG didn’t just take a hostage for the fun of it, he took a hostage for a reason. What is that reason? Can we meet that goal in a manner that allows all parties to avoid getting hurt? People tend to look at this sort of thing as black or white. It rarely is. There are usually a number of options and alternatives available. Biker sums things up pretty good.

[shy_man]

I witnessed several occasions about hostage taking. Some police made mistakes by firing at the hostage taker, the hostage got killed too.

In some occassions too, when the hostage taker plan to escape after long negotiation, then he was shot.

Lately, 1 bus full of kindergarten kids were hostaged by an idiot fanatics, through long negotiation and patience on the part of the police forces, none was killed. Everthing went well.

It depends on the situation on the area on what proper response to adapt or do.

Be patient, don't be a trigger happy policeman or le on the spot, you might put yourself, your teamleader or department in hot water. After the hostage taking resolve, then even you killed the hostage taker by a covert acts later on.

Well, in every country there are different approach. I am only speaking for my country Philippines.

[Para Bellum]

Wait until a more favorable opportunity presents itself.
...like the hostage getting killed anyway?

It's a hard scenarion and nobody shall be blamed for whatever he decides to do. But if you have chance to shoot the brain stem and the ability to do so, I couldn't imagine a more favorable opportunity to wait for (not) to come...

[Double Naught Spy]

But if you have chance to shoot the brain stem and the ability to do so, I couldn't imagine a more favorable opportunity to wait for (not) to come...

It is always interesting when folks suggest trying to hit a specific an fairly small internal location, such as a brain stem that is shielded by bone. It becomes really hard if you have to do it from the front.

[ohioleadslinger]

Unfortunately, I never found out the actual path of the bullet.

An interesting point here, I was hunting in WV for deer several years back. I had a doe permit and was using my .270 REM. I took a head shot at about 50 yds. I hit just behind the eye right in the flatter part of the side of the skull. The deer dropped like a sack of potato's, however the bullet, a soft point, turned down at 90 degrees went down the neck and exited on the side I was shooting from just above the top of the leg. Moral of the story, bullets do funny things and can't be predicted. I never found that bullet, I'm just glad it didn't find me!

[Rifleman 173]

Head shots? When I was teaching some police officers different shooting techniques involving precision shots, which is what head shots are, we found that before the officers had practiced precision shooting that about 3 out of 4 of them, at very close range of under 7 yards, would hit the victim in the head instead of the hostage taker. After about 2 years or so of practice involving precision shooting, the majority of officers could make head shots at 10 yards or less with no trouble. Believe me, it takes time and lots of ammo to make somebody into a fair precise shooter able to make head shots AND, get this, PRECISION SHOOTING IS A SKILL THAT CAN QUICKLY FADE AWAY IF IT IS NOT PRACTICED. So, if you're going to take head shots you will need lots and lots of practice to stay current in it.

[golf97]

I've seen too many cases of the bullet not penetrating the skull and going around and exiting the rear, leaving the BG (or in some instances GG) capable of continuing the fight.

Hostages are often used as a way out, so if they think you are willing to shoot they're probably going to take what they can while they can.

I would comply until he thinks he's free, then punch his ticket :D. Or just stall until the real law enforcement come with snipers, who probably still wouldn't shoot a guy with a hostage under his direct control.

[sqShane]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I was reading through it on my lunch break, and wondered about the following. Suppose the BG has a relatively large handgun pointed at the hostage's head and you are only 10 feet or so away. Is it an obviously bad idea to try to shoot the gun itself? Would this almost surely cause it to fire into the hostage's head, or could the 350+ foot pounds of energy knock it back away from the hostage's head before it fired? I have no position on this, just curious if there is a well known answer.

S

[Keltyke]

"Thanks for any input."

I'm getting in late on this one. DO NOT take the shot unless you can guarantee the perp will be INSTANTLY rendered nerveless with loss of ALL muscle control (ain't never gonna happen!). You can not guarantee the perp's knife will fall harmlessly away from the victim's throat or his index finger will relax harmlessly from the trigger. If you can somehow communicate to the victim to "faint", you MIGHT go for a shot when they go down, revealing more of the perp. As for letting the perp leave with a hostage, that's another scene entirely. You might have to take a chance there. Don't be too eager to shoot. If you have him cold in your sights, there's no need to hurry things. Try to talk him down.

Also, are you that good of a shot to hit that target dead center when you're pumped full of adrenaline? Think about what happens if you don't.

[Keltyke]

"Is it an obviously bad idea to try to shoot the gun itself?"

EXTREMELY bad!!! First, if the perp has that pistol on SA, it only takes a couple of pounds of pressure to trigger a shot. My wife's Colt Defender only takes 3.5 pounds. Even my Taurus 85UL is only about 6 pounds with a custom spring job.

I'll ask the same question I asked the original poster. Are you that good of a shot to hit that small target even from only 10 feet away when you're pumped full of adrenaline? Can you guarantee YOUR bullet won't ricochet and hit the victim?

Remember, most states require you to use a thought process that any REASONABLE person would use when you decide to shoot. Is it really reasonable to shoot only inches from an innocent person's head? I think not.

[Aqeous]

+ 1 chrisandclauida2


Thats a man that knows what he's talking about. He also gave a great argument for caliber vs bullet vs penetration. People have been shot right between the eyes with 9mm's and lived. If you want to quote movies check out Mercury Rising. Its one of the few movies that include a head shot that does not = instant death. The man in question is able to crawl over and dial a phone before succumbing to a flurry of additional bullets compliments of the BG.

I will add one thing however. The brain is encased in a skull, and thus does not respond well to compressive forces. Meaning, if you step up your ammo a little bit, .308 for snipers and adequate .40 JHP's and up for pistols, you will be able impart significant damage in the form of blunt force trauma to the entire brain. The result is a drastic increase in your likely hood of incapacitation. You might not have to actually permeate the "off switch" in order to effect it.

Point blank hollow points to the head can be very messy. (trust me) I've seen photos that vividly prove that point. Bullet weight is of key importance as well . . . a heavier bullet won't as easily glance off of bone as a light 9mm round.

So, to add specificness to this debate. Do you have a 9mm service pistol loaded with full metal jackets OR is it a magnum wheel gun chambered in anything from 10mm to .500 S&W? It does make a big difference.

The disposition of the BG is also key. Assuming he his violent, on drugs and not rational at the time (and you are in possition relative to your own shooting abilities) hesitation may not be the best defense. But if he is not all of those things, shooting would be irresponsible and the outcome would be on your hands. Regardless of which way it went . . .

[threegun]

For example, I might assume that in this situation I would have a box of small ball bearings that I could spread across the floor making it impossible for the BG to keep his balance when he tried to leave with a hostage. Hooray, problem solved!


Sure. There are lots of options that involve taking some action other than shooting. Shove the couch in front of the door. Lock the deadbolt and swallow the key. Pretend not to understand what the BG is saying, and talk back in a foreign language.

David, Kinda late (my response) but you already knew I was responding to Lurpers twist on the scenario. Great to see that you do have a sense of humor. Still can't see how you can keep them in the house as they usually have 2 entrances/exits and you are only one person.

[cschwanz]

I didn't read all the other posts, so forgive me if i repeat anything said prior to this post.

In this situation of the BG holding a weapon to another person's head, who is the other person? Is this a bak robbery or carjacking? is it someone kicking in your backdoor and grabbing your wife/son/daughter/husband/etc? Are you in a LE position? the answers to these questions may determine what actions should be taken. As an NON-LEO, drawing and shooting to save a civilian, while very commenadable, may land you in some legal trouble. As a civilian carrying a gun for personal protection, the gun should only be used for that-personal protection. What happens if you miss and hit the hostage as a civilian. What kind of criminal or civil charges await you? what are the penalties for action? Loss of gun or permit or both? Jail time? Is it worth it?

From a LEO perspective, everything changes and i am in no position to give such advice.

[sqShane]

Several posts did emphasize that the BG wants to keep the hostage alive so they have some "power" over the situation. I agree with that, but think the BG might need reminding of that. So, given that shooting the BG's gun is apparently a bad idea, I think I would explain to the BG that:

1. "I assume you will kill my wife or child for certain if you leave with her/him."
2. "Therefore, you cannot leave with them, period. Period!"
3. "If you try to do so, I will shoot you in the head and take my chances on survival of the spouse/son. At least this way, they have a chance of survival."
4. "But the easiest thing would be for you to just leave, in which case I won't shoot you in the head and we all win. See, it's a win-win situation. Go!"

If I were the BG, and someone were 10 feet away with a 9mm aimed at my head, I think I would take this deal and literally run with it.

Hunkering down in your own bedroom is a great idea for those who don't have family members in other parts of the house, but it is clearly not acceptable to leave the BG roaming around your house when other family members are not hunkering down with you.

[Freakdaddy]

WOW! I was surprised to see this thread resurrected. The best response to my original question was probably from chrisandclaudia2 and Aqeous brought up some good points as well.

There was never any "set" scenario. None of this "It was 8:43 at night with a SW wind at 5 mph; just having finished a Sydney’s Sinful Sundae and regretting it as I'm lactose intolerant when...blah, blah, blah," LOL! It was just a simple question of the possibility of a muscle contraction after a shot to the brain. Of course with anything, there's always a possibility.

I was looking for any scientific data or definitive answer along the lines of my cousin's wife has a friend who works with a guy who dated a girl in 1978 who's uncle that was twice removed witnessed...you know, first hand experience type stuff. I ended up having the police, SWAT and hostage negotiators showing up. I'm throwing out ball bearings, moving furniture and swallowing keys. Of course, the key won't stay there long due to the whole lactose intolerant thing. I have Girl Scouts with cookies, Jehovah Witnesses and kids trying to sell magazines to fund their trip to Florida.

In all seriousness, there was some very well made points and it was interesting to see this thread come to life. Probably more so than if I would have given a specific scenario to start off with. I appreciate everyone's input and taking the time to post a response.

Thanks.

[bushidomosquito]

After reading this thread I have taken to placing a small kiwi fruit inside a canaloupe and practicing at shooting it it out without hitting the more innocent looking honeydew placed in front of it slightly to the side. You never know when these skills might come in handy. :rolleyes:

[Scattergun Bob]

Sorry guys,

This is a lose, lose, lose, win.

you LOSE if you are too slow, bad guy pulls the trigger (remember the gun is cocked)

you LOSE if you miss the shot. (bad guy pulls the trigger)

you lose if there is movement and you shoot the hostage.

YOU do win if everything goes your way.

I do not want those odds, nor do I want to be the stimulus for the BG to pull the trigger.

Find cover, Keep your sight alignment and wait for a better shot.


We don't have much in the way of details in this nightmare, distance to target, light conditions, BG state of mind. MY testing indicates that the average Joe does not make this shot.

Good Luck & Be Safe

[evan1293]

Take the shot!

In the words of FPS Doug..."BOOM, HEAD SHOT!!!":mad:


JK!!

[bobthewelder]

About ten years ago we had a hostage situation in a local fast food place. Knife to the throat of a female patron and a city LEO took the shot from the roof of another fast food joint accross the street with a rifle. Only one injured was bad guy, he sort of died. Now, with a handgun and say the hostage and the BG are so close their heads are touching, you may miss and hit the hostage.

[Keltyke]

"About ten years ago we had a hostage situation in a local fast food place. Knife to the throat of a female patron and a city LEO took the shot from the roof of another fast food joint accross the street with a rifle. Only one injured was bad guy, he sort of died. Now, with a handgun and say the hostage and the BG are so close their heads are touching, you may miss and hit the hostage."

A trained police sniper with a high powered hunting rifle, special ammo, and telescopic sights is a LOT different than an untrained civilian CWP holder with a short barrel pistol, Wal-Mart brand JHPs, and a tongue and groove sight.

[Scattergun Bob]

In return fire of titans, in the immortal words of Cooper, "no amount of sheep like utterances of I'm sorry, will call back a round WHEN YOU MISS and hit the hostage."

[evan1293]

evan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In return fire of titans, in the immortal words of Cooper, "no amount of sheep like utterances of I'm sorry, will call back a round WHEN YOU MISS and hit the hostage."


I was completly kidding in my comment...quoting FPS Doug..I thought that was obvious :D...I did say JK by the way! ;)

No but seriously...that would be a shot I would really not want to take. I shoot a lot and Im fairly confident in my pistol skills, however high stess situations make for a low probability of placing a successfully head shot with a handgun. Additionally, movement of all parties involved as well as the unpredictability of handgun rounds (even if they strike the threat's head) makes for a terribly difficult shot to pull off.

With a scoped rifle on a SWAT team...well, thats a different story.

[Kragax]

With a couple of my handguns I'm a pretty good shot, but I have to defer to the gentleman from Camp David. I would hope I could stall long enough for LE to arrive. I don't have the faith in my abilities to try the head shot with a loved one being the hostage. I don't know what Id do but Id ahve to rule the coconut shot out. Hope for a better shot or for help to arrive. God forbid any of us ever has to face that situation.

[Scattergun Bob]

I am the one to apologize, I know so little of the protocols concerning chat boards, did not know JK meant just kidding.

thanks for the info

Scattergun Bob

[tyrajam]

This is my first post in this section because I am not trained in this area and I have very limited knowlege of this nature. But what I do know is that I trapped racoons when I was a kid, and I carried a 22 mag on the trapline. I can tell you one thing: when I shot trapped coons in the head, nearly all thrashed and wriggled and flipped around for a good 10 seconds. This was from a few feet away with a bullet that turned their head into pudding. I pray I will never be in this situation, but if I was, I would never shoot a person in the head who had their finger on the trigger of a gun pointed at a hostage.

I do remember reading somewhere that military snipers always shoot for the torso since its the biggest target, but in a hostage situation the point of aim is the upper lip with a head on shot, I guess it would allow the bullet to expand and then take out the spinal cord right under the brainstem. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats what I remember.

[bobthewelder]

This isn't meant to the last poster or anyone in specific. Hitting the brain stem? Are we 15 here?(we all know that when your 15 or so to about 20 you KNOW EVERYTHING).

[RedneckFur]

I would never take a shot at a BG with a hostage. Its not worth risking the lives of anyone I love.

[sqShane]

I'm surprised to see the diversity of opinions on this question, and I wonder if it's because some people are implicitly assuming something like the following:

(1) the BG has taken a hostage and presumably wants you to either surrender your weapon or to leave the premises with the hostage; and (2) no one has called law enforcement so there is no calvary coming to help.

So, I'm curious, with those assumptions, would many of you either surrender your weapon and/or let the BG leave the premises with the hostage instead of taking the shot?

[Double Naught Spy]

If you surrender your weapon, the bad guy now has two hostages, and a choice of which to keep, if he so desires.

As for the calvary, even if 911 is called, you are still looking at something like 4-15 minutes average response time for most major municipalities. For example, Dallas was proud that they had dropped below 9 minutes from double digits for top priority calls, even though they are still above 10 for some areas. http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2004/dallas/crime2.html

[Scattergun Bob]

The thing I don't like about addons to threads is that it changes the complexion of the problem. In a way it emulates real life events, nothing ever stays vanilla for long.

There is one Shotgun Sure thing here, NEVER EVER surrender your weapon. NO, you don't understand [B]NEVER EVER[B] surrender your weapon, it will cost you your life! Now do you understand.

Do I let the BG move the hostage to a secondary location? If I am the hostage the answer is hell no. If I am the shooter, I guess I'll cop out and say give me more details.

[Coop de Ville]

I was in a similar situation. We did not take the shot...

Everything turned out fine.

I could have taken the shot... and everything would have turned out fine.

Did I F#$k up because I let the situation dictate?... Even though everything turned out ok?

Which would be harder to live with?

Not taking the shot and the hostage is killed or taking the shot and the hostage is killed?

-Coop

[Ridge_Runner_5]

I say shoot the arm holding the weapon...sever the muscles and they wont be able to pull the trigger. Aim for the muscles on the inside of the elbow...

[Boris Bush]

Ridge_Runner_5


Are you serious? Doing that with a handgun is going to be a lucky thing. Even practice on a static range doing that is going to be tough.

I have only used a rifle in real life shootings and a COM hit is hard enough to do when your target is moving from cover to cover, hidden, and most importantly shooting at you aswell...

Get some training and go buy some self defense shooting tutorial books. Keyboard comandory thoughts like that will get you killed if you try that stuff...........

[Bob Lee Swagger]

Sharpshooter Basics is good. CQB Mastery helps, as does the Counter-Terrorist class (reduces cover granted by human shields)