Did I handle this correctly?

[ncgsdguy]

This is what happened to me 2 months ago-----I went to a local lake to go cat fishing, it was around 9pm, I had my German Shepherd and my Springfield XD40 with me as usual, well this lake is in the boonies, I pull into the parking lot, not seeing any cars I cut my bright lights on and proceeded to park near the boat ramp to fish from the piers, as I am getting my fishing poles and lanterns etc out of my trunk, my dog starts to give a low growl, I then see a group of 5 guys coming towards me, they were cursing me saying I was a dumbass for coming in there with bright lights on, I said sorry, didnt see anyone...they then let the F bombs fly and one of them threw a beer bottle at me, they are approaching me the whole time, at approx 20 yards I draw my weapon and keep it hidden by my side, my dog is tied to the bumper and is snarling mad....they kept coming towards me....all were very drunk and I suspect on drugs as well..I was getting a bit nervous by this time and thinking to myself, these guys are going to kill me, well when they got within 20 feet I leveled my gun at them, cut the taclight on thats on the rail of my XD and shouted...STOP...I am armed and have a dog, if you come any closer I will release my dog and open fire on you....this brought a torrent of F you's and kiss my a**...but they did stop cold in their tracks once they saw the pistol and my 100lbs German Shepherd...they kept cursing as they turned and walked back to their car that was backed into the woods, then they spun out and left, now if they had kept coming and threatening me, would I have been justified in shooting?...I hope to God I never have to do that, but I was ready that night and would have shot if they came any closer....sorry for the long story, but just wanted to tell the whole story

[revjen45]

Yup, if they had continued you would have had to fire or contend with them for posession of the gun.

[jdm357]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I think having that gun definitely kept you safe. 5 on 1 is not good odds, obviously; and being drunk, who knows what would've happened.

I think this is more or less exactly the intent of a CCW permit, in real-life situational thinking.

[newerguy]

What would you have done if you didn't have the gun?

[ppcpilot]

The above is a good question...you are near your car, probably have time just to get out of dodge and run. XD is for absolute last resort. If you got in your car and they were starting to try to get you out, then I'd say do the XD. They didn't have any deadly weapons that you could see, so kinda sketchy on what exactly they would do.

[mikejonestkd]

Glad to hear that you are ok.

My first choice would have been to get back in the car asap and get out of Dodge City. Waiting for them to get closer as they continue to make threatening comments about you was an error, armed or not.

A firearm is an absolute last resort, you had a window of opportunity to get out when it was clear that they were hostile and you chose to stay. Don't let your firearm embolden you in the future.

[Hallucinator]

I would have called the cops and reported it. Otherwise, these guys could go to the cops and say you pulled a gun on them.

Otherwise, you did what I would have done.

[jdm357]

I'm surprised I haven't been attacked (and possibly rightfully) as being irresponsible by saying that this is the intent of a CCW permit, as it should be the LAST option. I agree that getting out of there would be the best option. I should have read it more thoroughly, noting the distances you were at. All in all, it's hard to tell if it was the right thing to do, and if it was what any of us would've done, but you're alive to tell about it, and so are they.

I guess it really, as always, depends on the exact situation.

[DesertDawg]

HMM! If you really think about it, you probably should have un-tied your dog and held onto its leash FIRST. Having the dog tied to the bumper of your vehicle sort of "hampered" you from making a hasty get-away.

I may get "bashed" for saying this, but....I think that, if those turds hadn't backed down, you could have justified firing a "warning shot" into the ground. Sure, having a weapon doesn't always mean that you'll be safe, but in weighing the options....i.e., drawing down on the jerks and possibly getting into a shooting of one or more of them VS firing a "warning shot" to get their attention....you SHOULD be able understand where I'm coming from!

Did you happen to report the incident to the police? You could have carefully picked up the beer bottle (or fragments) that had been thrown at you, and gently place it into a paper bag....as evidence of their "hostility" toward you! On the other hand, I doubt if any of those dirtbags would even THINK of reporting the incident!

[Spade Cooley]

I would have dropped to one knee and put a few rounds just over their heads to show them I would resist. Those slime balls are not going to go to the police that night. Then I would go to the police and make my report and inflate it a little. You know they are going to do the same if they decide to go the next day. I might have also let the dog take a bite out of them.

[ZeSpectre]

It's easy to "keyboard quarterback" and difficult to think fast when you are actually right on the spot with adrenaline rushing and so forth.

It sounds like you handled an unexpected situation fairly well for needing to make snap decisions. You got the best possible outcome which is to say that everyone got to go home uninjured and no shots were fired.

Now that you have the luxury of sitting back and reviewing you can nitpick and review the scenairo and see what you might have done differently but use that as a learning tool for the future and don't beat yourself up too much on how the past was handled.

Having said that.

Vacating the area ASAP would have been the best choice if you could have managed it but let's assume for a moment that you couldn't drive off (because they were blocking you in or because the dog was tied to the bumper or whatever).

Now we're talking about attempting to deter them. Which (fortunately) worked. If it hadn't then we're on to "in fear of grave personal harm" which would require some justification later. Usually this is considered via the terms of Means, Motive, and Opportunity.

5 on one, throwing stuff at you, certainly qualifies as having the means to cause you grave personal harm.

Drunk, ******, aggressive behavior, there seems to have been motive.

In range and closing on you means that they had the opportunity to harm you.

Looks like you'd have had a pretty solid case for a self-defense action.

[tuckerdog1]

Warning shots at the ground, or in the air...Bad idea.

Agree with Hallucinator, since a gun was drawn, it's better to be the 1st to make the call to the cops.

Tuckerdog1

[Tanzer]

Warning shots waste ammo. In a 5 on 1, I'd worry about that. Not to sound like a nutty survivalist, but one thing I can say for sure; IF you want to produce that "be scared of this" effect, a 12 ga pump action seems to produce it a lot better than a handgun. I used to cruise to faraway locations on my sailboat. You sometimes didn't know if the locals were being friendly or scoping you out, so I would often sit on the stern and oil my 12 ga. When they'd pass by I'd give a nice friendly wave, then rack the pump. Always produced the intended look.

[stephen426]

I think DesertDawg got it right... Untie the dog first. 100 lbs. of german shepard is pretty intimidating. Tied to a bumper, its useless (unless it can chew through what you tied it up with in time to save your butt! :p )

I don't know about the whole legality of your actions, but mine would probably have been the same if I was in your shoes. Five on one is potentially deadly force in anybody's eyes (especially of they are drunk and/or high). They started the hostilities by throwing the beer bottle at you. This is considered a missle and could be classified with assault. (Remember the whole McMissle (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701560.html) thing with the lady throwing the cup of ice).

The best thing to do would have been to leave if you could have done so safely. You would have to untie your dog and get him loaded into the car first. The problem is you would be occupied and not fully able to track your threats. Twenty yards can be covered fairly quickly. Your car is not a safe place by any means since they can break your windows and go at you. All in all, I think you handled it fairly well. I'm glad nothing worse happened either.

[jfrey123]

My reaction would've been the same.

They brought the agression on to you. Seems like they were really just trying to pick a fight, cause IMHO being blinded by headlights is a lame reason to start this fight. So, for all you know you had just stumbled across a hornet's nest.

I think the key here is how far along you were into your unpacking of your supplies. I'm all about running for the hills in this case: 5-1, in the middle of the sticks with no back up, BG's possibly armed with more than bottles, etc. etc. This case is Bad News Bears all around. According to your first post, you've already begun unpacking, so you have equipment all around you. I think turning your back and starting to pack up would've been the biggest mistake of all. That would've allowed these jerks to come right up on you. By the time you finished packing, they could've surrounded you, overwhelmed you, and begun playing the "Deliverence" music while they have a tailgate party from the truck that was formerly yours.

In most cases, when it comes to Fight vs. Flight, I prefer the Flight option. If I don't need to take a life, I really don't want to. These were just some drunks who obviously had a little too much and were looking to get to scrapin'. However, for this senario, out in the middle of nowhere with no real running option, Fight would've presented as the only option. Drunk or not, these humans are still responsible for their actions, and must accept the consequences. If you've come up on me, and cornered me here with no time to flee, my reaction would've been the same.

[WhiteFeather93]

This is a hard one to call...
First and most foremost I am glad to hear you are ok and in good health.I applaud you for sharing. IMHO I think you did what anyone would have, not more than you had to and not less. Maybe you could have fled. Maybe they would have chased you. More likely than not they would have. You didn't mention if you had a phone on you. I'm not going assume so because I on occasion forget the phone and some of the remote places I go I don't get service anyway. But if you could have done one more thing it would have been to get the license plat # and direction of travel. Then unfortunetly you are going to have to leave and find a phone to contact the proper authorities. That is the only thing that comes to mind. Good job in a tight spot.

[revance]

I agree its always best to get away if you can. However I think that would have been difficult in this situation.

Untying a ****** off 100lb dog and getting him into a vehicle is no simple task (I have a rottie). Its even harder when you are scared and wanting to keep your eyes on a group of 5 jerks approaching you while yelling insults/threats.

Assuming you did everything the way you described (not swearing back at them or anything), you should just be happy you diffused it and nobody got hurt.

+1 on filing a police report.

[rainynight65]

I agree with some of the opinions here - I would have taken the fastest way out. What were the odds that at least one of those five had a gun with him? I haven't had many encounters with violence and violent people, but if there is one thing I have learned, it is that people under the influence of alcohol or narcotics are completely unpredictable. To be blunt, I think you are lucky to have left that encounter without suffering bodily harm. And I am not sure if the gun or the dog was the stronger deterrent.

[stephen426]

In most cases, when it comes to Fight vs. Flight, I prefer the Flight option. If I don't need to take a life, I really don't want to. These were just some drunks who obviously had a little too much and were looking to get to scrapin'. However, for this senario, out in the middle of nowhere with no real running option, Fight would've presented as the only option. Drunk or not, these humans are still responsible for their actions, and must accept the consequences. If you've come up on me, and cornered me here with no time to flee, my reaction would've been the same.

While I agree with you and would have done the same as the original poster, not leaving because you need to pack you gear (or your dog for that matter) becomes protecting property with deadly force. Now with many states allowing people to defend themselves without fleeing, the actions would be appropriate legally.

We are probably analyzing this situation based on the out come. What if the guys had kept coming? What if the original poster actually opened fire and shot or killed one of the guys (heck, maybe even all of the guys). Being a responsible person, the original poster would most probably call the police immediately. How would it look to the police if the other 4 guys made up some story about you attacking them unprovoked? I'm sure it would be even worse if all 5 guys were shot. Would our actions have been any different? Would our fishing gear (or even our dog) be worth the life (or lives) of one (or more) of those scumbags? Would it be worth the hassle to possible get arrested, find a good defense lawyer (blow a whole bunch of money or even your whole life savings), or deal with having a criminal record?

Don't get me wrong, if it is truely life or death, you do what you have to do. If you stick around so you don't leave fishing gear or your dog, then things get dicey. Sorry to complicate things. :o:p

[ncgsdguy]

Hello all, thanks for the replies. I would have gotten into my car and left in a hurry if would have had the chance to do so safely, with my GSD on the bumber and all my fishing gear and cooler on the ground behind the car, it wouldhave taken too much time to repack and plus my back would have been to them. It was a scary situation that I hope never happens again. I did call the sheriff afterwards and I never saw a deputy come around the lake in the time I stayed there. I didn't want to shoot anyone but I would have if the situation had become any more volitile....I'm thankful I had my GSD and my pistol with me, as I feel they saved my life, so many crazies out there these days, I actually went and bought 2 extra mags for my XD just in case I meet another threat such as this one. I am attaching a pic of my dog and my XD, thanks agaiin for all the responses and I'm glad to be on board with everyone

p/s thats a Bersa 380 with my springfield xd40

[AAshooter]

My first thought . . . Good Dog!!

[easyG]

I think the best course of action would have been to leave the area immediately upon noticing the five losers.
There is a good chance that at least one of them, and possibly all of them, also had a firearm.

Besides, why stay?
The fishing trip is over at this point.
I don't think I could stay and enjoy myself with five drunk punks creeping around.
I would worry that they might park down the road and sneak back to attack me, or go and get their own guns, or go and get some more friends, or hide and then follow me home.
You never know.

Personally, I never hike, camp, climb, or fish alone...night or day.
It's just too dangerous for many reasons.

[Thumper]

Warning shots?

Do you assume the goons aren't armed themselves? Bad assumption.

You realize that if you live, the jury's first question will be "Who shot first?"

[ncgsdguy]

well, maybe I'm just hardheaded, but I refuse to let druggie scum ruin my outing, I always have an escape route and I always have my senses on alert, criminals in my opinion have had so many "breaks" they think that they can run people away like scared rabbits and that;s why they have this attitude as they had with me, until I didn't back down, I just think that's part of the reason crime in America is so rampant...people don't fight back......and I don't give warning shots, maybe just a wounding shot...but no warning other than verbal

[easyG]

well, maybe I'm just hardheaded, but I refuse to let druggie scum ruin my outing, I always have an escape route and I always have my senses on alert, criminals in my opinion have had so many "breaks" they think that they can run people away like scared rabbits and that;s why they have this attitude as they had with me, until I didn't back down, I just think that's part of the reason crime in America is so rampant...people don't fight back......and I don't give warning shots, maybe just a wounding shot...but no warning other than verbal
I agree with you in spirit...
But you have to choose your battles carefully.

There is simply no way that this could have turned in to a fun outing in my opinion.
Call me crazy, but when I go fishing I like to relax and enjoy myself...not constantly be looking over my shoulder and constantly checking to see if my car is being vandalized.

I don't think that having a fun fishing trip would be possible in this situation.

[choover]

When the group threw the bottle and advanced within 21 feet I would have opened fire. I would not have unleashed the dog, holding onto the dog would have made unsteady hands more unsteady, I would not have released the dog, no reason to put him in the line of fire, and I would not have shot over their heads, no telling where stray bullets will land...

[easyG]

When the group threw the bottle and advanced within 21 feet I would have opened fire.
From the original post, it would seem that the bottle was thrown from before they came within even 20 YARDS of him.
He only drew his pistol when they advance to 20 YARDS away (60 feet).

I think he probably should have gotten back in his car immediately, before they even got to 20 yards, and left the area.

[dutchy]

I have no idea if what you did is legal, but in my book, it was plain smart.
Better pull out the gun and not need id, than to end up as a statistic of "dumb guy getting injured (or worse). Closer inspection at the morgue revealed that he had a gun."

Well done
A: defused the situation
B: Give a clear message that muzzle beats muscle.
C: survived to tell the tale and walk away.

[Engloid]

Right or wrong, it obviously worked out for the best.

You all may want to keep in mind that some states REQUIRE you to take any possible opportunity to flee a situation such as this. Others allow you to stand your ground.

I think you should be allowed to stand your ground, as the scum that do things like this are just fueled by a person that runs. It pumps them up and then they seek out another victim. I'd have to bet that the guys you rant into that night didn't look to start any more trouble that night, and may think a lot more before they ever do again.

[threegun]

The OP has his dog and some fishing equiptment out and you guys expect him to get in the car and leave. Leave the dog? How about the equiptment? How far were they away when the need to flee was realized?????30 maybe 40 yards. Ever see what happens to fine motor skills when Freddy Kruger is bull rushing you? Its virtually impossible for the victim to even get the key into the ignition.

IMO the OP did the right thing.

[Hosses]

His dog being tied to the bumper is enough justification for him NOT to be able to flee from the situation in a timely manner.

[easyG]

I'd have to bet that the guys you rant into that night didn't look to start any more trouble that night, and may think a lot more before they ever do again.
I doubt it.

The OP has his dog and some fishing equiptment out and you guys expect him to get in the car and leave. Leave the dog? How about the equiptment? How far were they away when the need to flee was realized?????30 maybe 40 yards.
Yes, flee.
Untie the dog, or cut the leash with your pocketknife, put the dog in the car, and leave the area immediately.
You gear can be replaced...your life cannot.

Have you ever seen a drunk guy run 30 yards?

I think he had time to get the dog in the car and leave the area.
And he could have later called the cops and went back with them to recover his gear.

Ever see what happens to fine motor skills when Freddy Kruger is bull rushing you? Its virtually impossible for the victim to even get the key into the ignition.
This is hollywood movie BS.
If you can't get your key in the ignition of your car under pressure, then a pistol aint gonna do you any good either!

The bottom line is he was lucky that they did not have pistols of their own and start shooting at him and his dog.

[ncgsdguy]

Thanks for the responses, I'm also glad it turned out like it did, that was the closest I have ever come to shooting a target without actually shooting, I was aiming center mass on the closest guy....thankfully they all backed off, what kept running through my head was a LEO friend of mine who shot a guy who was zoned out on Crystal Meth, and attacking him with a pitch fork, he shot the guy 5 times before the guy dropped, but I carry 2 extra 12 round mags for a total of 36 rounds, as far as me jumping in the car and leaving, I couldn't have done so, my dog was on the bumper, all my gear, lanterns, poles cooler etc was on the ground behind my car.....just glad it didn't go defcon1...and for the record, I am ex military and practice shooting weekly, if theres one thing I have taught myself is to stay calm and focused

[threegun]

Yes, flee.
Untie the dog, or cut the leash with your pocketknife, put the dog in the car, and leave the area immediately.
You gear can be replaced...your life cannot.


In the time it takes you to pull out a knife or untie the leash I will be on you even at a fast walk. You will then be caught at a disadvantage in cover and situational awareness.

This is hollywood movie BS.
If you can't get your key in the ignition of your car under pressure, then a pistol aint gonna do you any good either!



And an appearent lousy attempt at humor on my part.

[David Armstrong]

The OP has his dog and some fishing equiptment out and you guys expect him to get in the car and leave. Leave the dog? How about the equiptment? How far were they away when the need to flee was realized?????30 maybe 40 yards. Ever see what happens to fine motor skills when Freddy Kruger is bull rushing you? Its virtually impossible for the victim to even get the key into the ignition.
Yes, I expect him to leave. Untie the dog, or let the dog run along behind you at 15 MPH or so for a while. It won't hurt him. As for the equipment---for the amount of money you will spend on legal costs for shooting somebody you can buy a whole lot of really nice fishing equipment. And if you can't control your skills enough to get the car started you probably aren't going to have enough control to do much good with that gun.
In the time it takes you to pull out a knife or untie the leash I will be on you even at a fast walk. You will then be caught at a disadvantage in cover and situational awareness.
Not any more than you are already. Way too many folks around here seem to think that shooting first is the answer to these problems. It isn't. It is usually the last resort and the least favorable of the options that can be selected.

[Dwight55]

ncgsdguy, . . . FWIW, . . . I think you did darn good, all things considered.

Very few of us are ready at all times to recognize a danger that requires flight, . . . you had your dog to consider, . . . and most of all: you did not shoot any of them.

David Armstrong is very much correct when he says shooting is: "usually the last resort and the least favorable of the options that can be selected."

Being accosted by those 5, . . . as you were, . . . I may not have done as well, . . . but one thing for sure, . . . I would not have been there by myself. Any time I am out like that after dark, . . . I have a buddy other than John Browning with me.

May God bless,
Dwight

[easyG]

From threegun:
In the time it takes you to pull out a knife or untie the leash I will be on you even at a fast walk. You will then be caught at a disadvantage in cover and situational awareness.
BS!
I carry a Spyderco Pacific Salt...
I can draw it and cut the leash in less time than you can take ten steps!
And there's no way a drunk guy is gonna cover twenty yards in less time than you can pull a knife and cut a leash.
And once the leash is cut, then the drunk has not only a man to deal with, but a 100 lbs dog to deal with!

No matter what the dog was definitely better off cut free or inside the car.

[Link]

It really depends on the state you live in. Some states favor the safety and rights of their law abiding citizens, while others seem to, well, you know. You're allowed to carry in your state for a reason...to protect yourself, your family, and your property (at least in TX). The fact that you're allowed to carry answers, at least in part, some of the appropriatness of your response.

First, I don't think you were in error in pulling your gun.

I probably would've given a verbal warning like you did. When they kept advancing, I would've followed with a warning shot in the ground, rather than pointing at them. If they still kept advancing (although I doubt they would), you would've been justified in dropping one or all of them.

Being drunk and stupid are neither excuses for attacking someone nor a defence for getting shot for attacking.

Depending on your dog's temperment, it might also have proven useful to cut his leash and let him chase them back to their car, biting them in their drunk asses along the way, although he could've been injured by this.

[ncgsdguy]

Rommel (my dog) will attack if given the order, or if he is threatened or my safety is an issue, but all this was happening so fast, I was trying to keep and eye on the 5 of them, and make sure nobody flanked me, I was prepared to doubletap the closet guy...and if the rest kept coming empty the mag, I was taught to shoot 2 to the heart one to the head if my possible demise was probable....just glad it stopped where it did. I did go out and buy new mags though.....just in case I need more than 3:D

[BillCA]

ncgsdguy,

First, good job of handling the situation. No one got hurt, everyone got to go home later. Happy ending.

"Keyboard Quarterbacking" comments....

1. If my dog is growling and barking at them, he's giving warnings of his own. I'd probably untie him when the crowd started approaching for two reasons. First is that dogs (especially GSDs, Rotties and Dobermans) scare people if they can get loose --and I'll remind them that if they hurt my dog, I hurt them worse. If they hurt me, there's no one to call the dog off. Second is that if I have to retreat, I can (hopefully) get the dog into the car easier.

2. I'd never leave my dog to the whims of 5 drunk jerks.

3. Drive off with dog leashed to bumper? Not hardly. I know how much vet bills can be if a dog gets hurt.

4. At 20 yards a group of "intoxicated' men start throwing bottles. At that distance, if they charge with the intent to assault me, they can cover the 20 yards in about 8-12 seconds. If I'm already trying to get the dog into the car, I might succeed before they get me. (remember, he'll be resisting in order to bark and growl at them.)

5. I'm all for the use of a "strategic retreat" when necessary. In this case, it's not necessary or even workable. If you look like you're going to run it will only encourage these losers to put the rush on you. Even if you look like you're just backing away to get to the car this can happen (I've seen it any number of times at a local cowboy bar parking lot). When this happens, the group can be terribly abusive to someone's hide.

ncgsdguy -- That's a fine looking German Shepard! Unless he's trained around gunfire (i.e. a shutzenhund) or protection trained, he's probably better used as a deterrent rather than letting him go chew on someone. I'd not mess with someone who has a dog like that even if they're unarmed!

[KChen986]

1.) You kept all your belongings.
2.) No shots were fired.
3.) No one (animals included) was hurt.

Turning away from potential attackers and attempting to flee may actually goad on rowdy stoned drunks. I for one think you did an excellent job in this situation.

[ncgsdguy]

Thank you all, and BillCA, He goes to the range with me, the only thing he don't like and is jittery of is the vacuum cleaner, he actually watches fireworks and barks at them, and he sleeps the whole time at the range so gunshots dont bother him....he was ready to go after those scumbags.....and he hits hard, I have used bite suits on friends and they say they can feel the pressure when he bites...thats my boy:D

[mvpel]

I admire your restraint in waiting until 20 feet before aiming. The Tueller Drill demonstrates that you can be dead before drawing and firing if a single attacker is at 21 feet, let alone five of them.

[revance]

I think he did the right thing.

I am ALWAYS for running if possible, even if it means leaving stuff behind. However, I don't believe a dog to be "stuff". I wouldn't leave my dog to be tortured and killed by 5 drunk jerks. Don't fool yourself, the dog will attack them, and they will in turn beat and kill it.

It is VERY HARD to get a growling, barking, ****** off, 100lb dog into your truck to flee when 5 drunk dudes are approaching.

I would also guess the instant you start fleeing, they come at you faster (even if their intent is to just scare the crap out of you) because they assume you are defenseless and scared. Being drunk and empowered by the thought they have you running scared, I wouldn't put it past them to jump into the bed of his truck or stand in the road blocking his escape before he has a chance to get away (I'm assuming like most fishing holes there is only one road). At this point, I believe the chances of someone getting shot, hit by a truck, or falling off a moving truck just got a lot higher.

He kept himself safe while giving the BGs a choice. He made it clear that he was capable and willing to defend himself and everyone had plenty of time to make a good decision before he needed to open fire.

My biggest suggestion would have been to get behind cover before (or quickly after) drawing your gun. That way if they have weapons you have the tactical advantage, you are covered and sober, they are in the open and drunk.


Running is only the best option if you can get away.

[easyG]

It is VERY HARD to get a growling, barking, ****** off, 100lb dog into your truck to flee when 5 drunk dudes are approaching.
An uncontrollable dog is not an asset....ever!

[revance]

More of an asset than 5 drunk @##hats trying to jump him.

He gave them plenty of chance to walk away. Had they chosen to continue the attack, I would not feel too sorry for them.

My dog is very well trained and very well behaved, but when she is ****** and growling at something threatening her/my family, she doesn't respond to "get in the car" nearly as fast as she normally would. Its probably going to take some tugging on the leash and probably scolding her (which I don't like to do when she is doing her job).

When she barks at the kids riding their bikes down the street, I yell at her, but thats because she's just wagging her tail and thinks its a game. When my brother in law came into our house unannounced at 2am and she crouched at the top of the stairs growling with her fur standing straight up... I wasn't going to scold her, she was doing her job. I simply ordered her to stay, and she did, but I would be kidding myself if I thought she would leave her position at the top of the stairs without some coercion.

I guess the simple point I am making with my really long post is that just because your dog takes some effort to get into a car when someone is threatening it, doesn't mean they are uncontrollable. I also wouldn't leave my dog to be killed when my chances of fleeing are slim anyway. I think what he did had the best probability of having a happy ending for all involved (including the dog).

[TWB]

Sounds like you handled it quite well. Nobody was injured, especially you and your dog, and you lived to question yourself another day. I see no flaws in your actions. Using the brights only shows that you were being properly observant.

I have no idea if you would have been legally justified in using potentially lethal force; it depends on where you live. In my view, any further aggression would have demanded that you fire upon them until they ceased aggression. There was a clear disparity of force, with the multiple assailants, one of which who had already committed an assault (in most, if not all locales). They were verbally aggressive and threatening. It would seem that you already had sufficient grounds to fire upon them, but you used remarkable, and possibly hazardous (to you) restraint.

Stop second guessing yourself on this one. You passed the test with flying colors.

twb