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Hard Ball
June 10, 2007, 02:07 PM
In choosing a pistol which is more important to you magazine capacity or caliber and why? As an example if you like SIGs would you choose an 8 shot .45ACP P220 or a 16 shot 9mm P226? Would the make of the pistol effect your choice?

GotGlock19
June 10, 2007, 02:18 PM
When i first started shooting, and i knew i wasn't a good shot, the more rounds i had the better. I began carrying a glock 19 with 16 rounds. Now that i have alot of practice, and im comfortable with my ability to put holes where i want them, 9 rounds of .45 is all i want/need. I rather have a bigger bullet thats more capable then alot of smaller rounds, im not saying anything bad about a 9mm, i still carry a kahr pm9 on occasion, but there is no denying that a .45 is more effective.

AK103K
June 10, 2007, 02:20 PM
I used to be strictly a .45 boy, but these days, I'd go with volume over caliber. I kind of split the difference and went with a P229 in 357SIG. 12-13 rounds of basically 125 grain 357Mag is better than 8 rounds of .45. 15-16 rounds of 9mm might be even better.

If you need to shoot them all till they are down, 8 rounds of .45 might not be enough.

Silvanus
June 10, 2007, 02:34 PM
I prefer a higher capacity. Well not really, I just like the 9mm caliber and there's no reason to get one with a single-stack magazine since they are all reasonably sized for my hands.

tony pasley
June 10, 2007, 02:48 PM
I am a 45 fan single stack with 1 spare mag.

RJay
June 10, 2007, 02:52 PM
I for one really like a high capacity magazine, it allows me to miss faster and more often.

10mm man
June 10, 2007, 03:02 PM
They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I purchased a 10mm with a mag capacity of 15 rounds. Best of both worlds.:D

fastbolt
June 10, 2007, 03:02 PM
Thought you'd toss out one those easy-to-answer, non-debatable questions, did you? ;)

Okay ...

Yes, No & Maybe. :)

I own a number of different 'working' pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and over the years I've been issued a number of different pistols, of different sizes and magazine capacities, chambered in the same calibers.

After a number of years as a LE firearms instructor and armorer I finally decided that caliber and capacity matter less to me than reliability, inherent practical accuracy, ease of maintenance/support and overall ergonomics.

After a number of years of carrying a 15+1 9mm service pistol I opted for the compact 12+1 model after working a plainclothes assignment for a while. If I'd had the opportunity I'd have selected one of the few 3913's available for their slimmer and lighter 8+1 single column features, and I'd have been comfortable carrying one for either uniform or plainclothes, but they were designated for folks who just couldn't use the standard pistols with wider double column magazines.;)

So, I guess sheer 'capacity' wasn't as important to me as it might be to some other folks. Neither is caliber. Not really.

I was later issued a full-size .40 S&W with 12+1 capacity. I eventually decided the issued 9mm compact with 12+1 capacity was preferable to the full-size .40 S&W of similar capacity, albeit larger caliber, so I chose to carry the 9mm pistol more than the .40 S&W pistol. Equal capacity ... but I chose the 'smaller' caliber for the platform, for reasons of personal preference considered from training and daily carry experiences.

I later turned down an opportunity to carry a standard steel 7+1 capacity Colt pistol, one of our few special purpose pistols, and did so simply because of the weight. After I was later issued a TDA 8+1 capacity all-steel .45 ACP service pistol, and carried it in my plainclothes assignment for a while, I finally turned it in so it could be issued to someone I knew who really wanted one of the new all-steel .45's. He was very pleased with it, and I chose to carry an issued lightweight compact 9+1 capacity .40 S&W.

I suppose you could say I traded a larger, heavier 8+1 capacity .45 ACP for a smaller, lighter weight .40 S&W with an additional round's capacity ... but I chose it not for the capacity, but for the lighter weight and ergonomics, both of which were simply preferable for me.

Now, I'm not exactly consistent in my preferences, and I'll admit to that ... :)

For example, I'll chose to carry a J-frame with 5-shot capacity over my CS45 with 6+1 capacity ... and do so for reason of the lighter weight and smaller size.

Then, on another day when I do chose to carry a pistol off-duty, I'll chose the CS9 over the CS45 ... because the CS9 is slightly smaller and lighter, and has 7-rd magazines instead of 6-round magazines.

Some days I'll chose for overall size & weight ... other days for specific caliber ... and yet other days 'capacity' might be more of a consideration ... and then some days for overlapping considerations of all of the above.

Never said I was consistent ... :rolleyes:

I do tend to like the .40 S&W and .45 ACP for their heavier bullet weights, although I don't lose any sleep when carrying lighter bullet weights in 9mm or .38 Spl.

Matter of fact, I'd still choose to carry an issued 9mm if that were an option. I've fired many ten's of thousands of rounds of 9mm downrange over the years since we originally transitioned from .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm pistols, and I feel confident in using it for defensive purpose. It's not an option, however, since the decision was made that our new issued weapons will only be offered chambered in .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Oh well. No big deal. I still choose a 9mm more often than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP when it comes to choosing from among my personally owned off-duty weapons.

Now, if I were offered a choice between an issued P220 or a P226, I'd consider most of the same factors. Does one 'fit' my hand better than the other? Do I prefer the way one handles, balances and shoots more than the other? I'd carry either as an issued weapon and not worry about it, but if I had a choice and an opportunity to try both, I'd try them and then make my decision for whatever reasons suited me and my perceived needs.

It's just a handgun, chambered in one of the major defensive LE calibers ...

Not much help, huh? ;)

AK103K
June 10, 2007, 03:06 PM
I for one really like a high capacity magazine, it allows me to miss faster and more often.
This sounds like a personal problem to me, not the mag's. :)

Hallucinator
June 10, 2007, 04:58 PM
I love the Glock 23: big bore power and high capacity. 14 rounds of .40 +p and pretty decent recoil management.

revjen45
June 10, 2007, 05:06 PM
No matter what caliber you have more magazine capacity is a good thing.

sacp81170a
June 10, 2007, 05:16 PM
THR refugee here. I want what they shoot in Hollywood, IOW, a magazine that never runs dry with enough power to knock the bad guys flying. Anyone know what make and model that one is? It's the one that shoots through body armor and has to have the slide racked for dramatic effect just before you burst in on the room full of bad guys. ;)

Hemicuda
June 10, 2007, 06:55 PM
Springfield XD-45... .45 ACP, and 13+1 rounds... WHY compromise on EITHER caliber or capacity?

Manedwolf
June 10, 2007, 07:11 PM
Depends for what.

For CCW, 7rds of .45ACP in a PT745.

To be worn on hip in a post-disaster scenario, 17rds of 9mm +P+ in a PT-92.

rantingredneck
June 10, 2007, 07:12 PM
I want an effective caliber in a gun that I can shoot well and rely on.

I've shot 9mm, .40, .45 and .357/38 in defensive pistols. My preferences run to 9mm and .45

My first pistol was a Ruger P89. I still have it. I still love to shoot it. It was my carry weapon for awhile and still is on occasion.

I had a Smith and Wesson Sigma .40 for awhile. I never got comfortable with the strange trigger or snappy recoil to come to trust my life to it.

I got a Ruger P90 about six months ago and quickly came to appreciate the .45. I must also say that the P90 has a much better trigger than the P89.

Last week I traded for a P345. It is a dream to shoot. Great accuracy and it absorbs recoil like a sponge.

Now to your question it would depend on the usage which of the above pistols I'd reach for. My daily carry is now my P345. It's slim and light and hides easily, but still has a 4 inch barrel to make full use of the .45's potential. It also has a full length grip that is comfortable in my large hands. I've held a lot of CCW subcompact pistols that just don't work for me. This one does.

For carry in the field when hunting the P90 will be going with me. It's barrel and therefore sight radius is about a half inch longer than the P345.

If the SHTF 15 rounds of 9mm would be a handy thing to have. When you get right down to it modern defensive ammo has pretty well leveled the playing field between 9mm, 40, and 45. With only slight differences in effectiveness, whether your measure is penetration or muzzle energy, having more rounds before a mag change would be a big selling point.

I'd not feel undergunned with either.

18DAI
June 10, 2007, 07:51 PM
I went from a S&W high cap 9mm, to the HK USPF 40, to my current S&W 3913. We are authorized to carry from a list of approved handguns, provided we qualify with our choice.

I chose the 8+1 3913, for its absolute reliability, coupled with it's light weight and ease of concealment. It is also a very accurate handgun. I'm very comfortable with the capacity, and the caliber. I use Winchester Ranger T 124 grain, and am well armed. Regards 18DAI.

obxned
June 10, 2007, 08:03 PM
Single stack .45!

slow944
June 10, 2007, 08:49 PM
Since I can't carry at work I keep a little KT P3AT 7+1 in my lockbox in the car(not private parking lot). For around the house and out running around I carry either a Taurus PT140 or PT145 IWB. 10+1 in 40 or 45 is enough for me at this stage of the game. If I nee more then I have a Bersa Thunder 9mm with 3 17rd mags. which is to say I carry a box of ammo with the 9. And then sometimes I carry my S&W M66 357 OWB and maybe 1 reload.

Gunfixr
June 10, 2007, 10:19 PM
I just like .45s, so I carried a 1911 of some sort for a long time. Recently got me a Glock 21, and ben carrying it ever since. Even with 13+1 rounds of .45, it's lighter than my Kimber Compact with 7+1 rounds. Go figure. If I'm feeling really paranoid, I can drop a second mag in a pocket.:D

Hansen
June 11, 2007, 01:12 PM
In my own opinion.

I would chose what I could effectively control. If you can't control the "Manly" large caliber guns then what good is it!!!! I hear people talk about bigger is better! This is a myth that needs to be set straight.

If you have a 45, 10mm, 357 SIG, ect, and you can't put the projectiles where you need them becuase you can't control the recoil, well, what good is that large caliber? In my firearms classes I see this all the time. Some people buy what others "think" will or should work! What works for one may not work for another.

Chosing caliber over control is not the smartest thing to do! If you can't hit what you intend too, then who or what are you hitting instead?????

I for one will never recommend a caliber to someone. I will advise them to get what they can effectivley control. Just because you have a gun does not make you safer or even a good shot. Knowledge alone will NOT make you a good shot ethier, but rather how to apply that knowledge correctly (can you use the knowledge you have in a practical situation the way it should be, knowing how to use something and actually using something are 2 different things) will make you safer and a better shot.

Just because they are smaller calibers, doesn't make them any less deadly???? I do know of a guy who was shot 8 times with a 45ACP and he is still alive and was able to get away to get to a hospital! I also know of a girl that was shot with a 45 and still was able to run away!!!!

I actually put a little more effort in "Shot Placement" over "Caliber" factors.

Hansen
June 11, 2007, 01:20 PM
As for capacity? That is not on the top of the list, this is my list;

1. Do I like it?
2. Is it comfortable to wear?
3. Can I control the firearm?
4. Will it do what I need it to do?
5. Affordability? (I hate this part, sometimes nothing you can do)
5. How many rounds does it hold?


If the gun you chose is not 100% to your likings then you will most likely not wear it after the newnest has wore off. If you don't like it, then what good is capacity? Or even caliber????

Just my .02 cents.....

Wayfaring_Stranger
June 11, 2007, 01:21 PM
Springfield XD-45... .45 ACP, and 13+1 rounds... WHY compromise on EITHER caliber or capacity?

Cause thats a lot to carry, at least for a CCW. For home - fine. Concealed, how could you carry that?

DougO83
June 11, 2007, 03:35 PM
Thought you'd toss out one those easy-to-answer, non-debatable questions, did you?

Okay ...

Yes, No & Maybe.

I own a number of different 'working' pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and over the years I've been issued a number of different pistols, of different sizes and magazine capacities, chambered in the same calibers.

After a number of years as a LE firearms instructor and armorer I finally decided that caliber and capacity matter less to me than reliability, inherent practical accuracy, ease of maintenance/support and overall ergonomics.

After a number of years of carrying a 15+1 9mm service pistol I opted for the compact 12+1 model after working a plainclothes assignment for a while. If I'd had the opportunity I'd have selected one of the few 3913's available for their slimmer and lighter 8+1 single column features, and I'd have been comfortable carrying one for either uniform or plainclothes, but they were designated for folks who just couldn't use the standard pistols with wider double column magazines.

So, I guess sheer 'capacity' wasn't as important to me as it might be to some other folks. Neither is caliber. Not really.

I was later issued a full-size .40 S&W with 12+1 capacity. I eventually decided the issued 9mm compact with 12+1 capacity was preferable to the full-size .40 S&W of similar capacity, albeit larger caliber, so I chose to carry the 9mm pistol more than the .40 S&W pistol. Equal capacity ... but I chose the 'smaller' caliber for the platform, for reasons of personal preference considered from training and daily carry experiences.

I later turned down an opportunity to carry a standard steel 7+1 capacity Colt pistol, one of our few special purpose pistols, and did so simply because of the weight. After I was later issued a TDA 8+1 capacity all-steel .45 ACP service pistol, and carried it in my plainclothes assignment for a while, I finally turned it in so it could be issued to someone I knew who really wanted one of the new all-steel .45's. He was very pleased with it, and I chose to carry an issued lightweight compact 9+1 capacity .40 S&W.

I suppose you could say I traded a larger, heavier 8+1 capacity .45 ACP for a smaller, lighter weight .40 S&W with an additional round's capacity ... but I chose it not for the capacity, but for the lighter weight and ergonomics, both of which were simply preferable for me.

Now, I'm not exactly consistent in my preferences, and I'll admit to that ...

For example, I'll chose to carry a J-frame with 5-shot capacity over my CS45 with 6+1 capacity ... and do so for reason of the lighter weight and smaller size.

Then, on another day when I do chose to carry a pistol off-duty, I'll chose the CS9 over the CS45 ... because the CS9 is slightly smaller and lighter, and has 7-rd magazines instead of 6-round magazines.

Some days I'll chose for overall size & weight ... other days for specific caliber ... and yet other days 'capacity' might be more of a consideration ... and then some days for overlapping considerations of all of the above.

Never said I was consistent ...

I do tend to like the .40 S&W and .45 ACP for their heavier bullet weights, although I don't lose any sleep when carrying lighter bullet weights in 9mm or .38 Spl.

Matter of fact, I'd still choose to carry an issued 9mm if that were an option. I've fired many ten's of thousands of rounds of 9mm downrange over the years since we originally transitioned from .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm pistols, and I feel confident in using it for defensive purpose. It's not an option, however, since the decision was made that our new issued weapons will only be offered chambered in .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Oh well. No big deal. I still choose a 9mm more often than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP when it comes to choosing from among my personally owned off-duty weapons.

Now, if I were offered a choice between an issued P220 or a P226, I'd consider most of the same factors. Does one 'fit' my hand better than the other? Do I prefer the way one handles, balances and shoots more than the other? I'd carry either as an issued weapon and not worry about it, but if I had a choice and an opportunity to try both, I'd try them and then make my decision for whatever reasons suited me and my perceived needs.

It's just a handgun, chambered in one of the major defensive LE calibers ...

Not much help, huh?


wow...I am confused. Anyway, I choose the Steyr M40-A1, that is why I am buying one. I have fired thisgun enough to be very proficient with it and will carry it anywhere.

10mm man
June 11, 2007, 04:31 PM
"1. Do I like it?
2. Is it comfortable to wear?
3. Can I control the firearm?
4. Will it do what I need it to do?
5. Affordability? (I hate this part, sometimes nothing you can do)
5. How many rounds does it hold?"
quote by Hansen

I have heard several good comments about "if you can't hit your target, high capacity means more misses".

I found that I could answer the above 5 questions to my satisfaction.
Someone once said that paper targets do not shoot back and so I would say that under fire, I am not sure anyone will react the same as at the range. But practice makes perfect.
Attached pic is 50 rounds of 10mm at 21 feet. Yea, I know, I need to work on my trigger control to quit pushing pistol to the left.

Hemicuda
June 11, 2007, 05:03 PM
I conceal it the same way I conceal ALL my handguns... In a Galco Jak-Slide, above my right rear pocket, with the barrel in the top of my pocket above my wallet, and a T-shirt or polo shirt over it...

Hansen
June 11, 2007, 05:25 PM
Training for the real world is almost impossible. "Reality" training means that what happens in a real situation should be brought into the training rehlms! But it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring in the gunshot part to the training and the high stress it creates!!!!

But as 10mm man stated practice makes better, and practice as close to real thing as safely as possible!

'75Scout
June 11, 2007, 09:06 PM
I go by the theory that you should carry the largest caliber you can handle. I can handle the 45 so thats what I carry. I am in a police academy and of 93 current cadets there are only 7 that carry 45acp. About 60 carry a 40 and the rest carry 9mm. I am one of the 7 that carry the 45 and the only Sig 220 that I know of. All I can say is I truely love this gun and am supremely confident that it is a fine weapon. Shot placement will be far more important.

Olive Drab
June 11, 2007, 11:04 PM
im a fan of higher capacity and 124 grain speer gold dots. A CNS shot is going to take you down whether you use a .45 or a 9mm. a miss is still going to be a miss.

TheLastBoyScout
June 11, 2007, 11:06 PM
Get BOTH!

Seriously... I have a double stack .45 which isn't any harder to deal with than a double stack 9mm.

If I have to pick one, I guess "caliber"... since I did give up 2 whole rounds of capacity:p

Spenser
June 12, 2007, 12:01 AM
I used to subscribe to the "more is better" theory.

Now, I don't feel at all at a disadvantage with a single-stack pistol of some sort, especially one that I shoot well.

Not that I don't like the hi-cap guns, I certainly do. I think I'd opt for carrying something that I have faith and confidence in. So it's more lately about what I feel like I can shoot the best with. The one 9mm that hits is much more valuable than the slew of .45's or .40's that miss.

So the main consideration is whether or not I'm comfortable with the gun, no matter what size, mag capacity, etc. It's what I think I can make hits with.

Hansen
June 12, 2007, 08:41 AM
I agree with spenser. Most shootings are over in less than three rounds, that is one reason I don't go by capacity. The second reason is I don't have big hands and double stack guns I dont like the way they feel for me. Single stack I am happy with.

kjdoski
June 12, 2007, 11:03 AM
Here's my own opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it:

1. The most important thing about defensive firearms use is SHOT PLACEMENT

2. In order to ensure adequate shot placement in the most stressful experience of your life, your pistol needs to have several factors:

a. It must "fit" your hand well so your EXTREMELY fast grip aquisition and draw are true
b. It must have a DECENT trigger - not necessarily match grade, but you need to be able to manipulate the trigger smoothly, without yanking the bore off target
c. It must shoot at or very near Point of Aim
d. It SHOULD shoot "naturally" so a flash sight picture or body indexed aiming allow effective hits
e. It must be controllable in rapid fire, as I personally believe in shooting until the targets ceases to be threats

3. The pistol needs to be concealable BY YOU, given the climate you live in, your mode of dress, and your daily activity.

Not many pistols will meet all of those criteria equally well. For me, the "fit" of the P228/9 and P226 are much better than the "fit" of the P220, so I would prefer to have the "smaller" caliber pistol over the "larger" caliber pistol. The fact that the 226/8/9 offer higher magazine capacity is a bonus, not a deciding factor. The 9mm Sigs are also significantly easier for me to shoot at speed, another factor in their favor, FOR ME.

On the other hand, the Kahr PM9 "fits" my hand better than the G26, so, even though the PM9 offers fewer rounds of the same potency, it's what I frequently pick for deep concealment.

Given two pistols of exactly the same dimensions, with the same ergonomics (e.g. G19 versus G23) it comes down to shootability, for me. I don't believe there's ENOUGH difference between the best 9mm and the best .40s to make it worthwhile to decrease shot-to-shot speed by going to the larger caliber.

To me, the two "ultimate" fighting handguns are at opposite ends of the spectrum - the G19 (capacity, fast follow ups, light weight and small size), and the 1911 (accuracy, shootability, and hard hitting ammunition). I go back to Massad Ayoob's old question: "do you want a buzz saw, or a hammer?"

Regards,

Kevin

k8do
June 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
Most for-real gunfights take place a close range... Inside of 20 feet will cover some 90%... Inside of 9 feet will cover more than half...
There are relatively few shots fired the majority of the time...
<drive by gangsta spray and run don't count for the types of fights we are discussing here>
In the 9 foot arena the first one who gets off a shot usually comes out the winner...
The first hit ends the fight a high percentage of the time...

So, the basic rules are simple:

1. Don't get into a gunfight - period!
People who get into gunfights get hurt - or get dead...
Use the gun if someone charges at you, otherwise back out of the situation, leave the room, or get off the street, stomp the accelerator and blow through that red light, etc... Go....
If the BG shoots at you as you go, don't get shot! With each shot that hits you your survivability drops dramatically... Duck, run, hide, leave... This business of taking the stance, cooly lining up the sights , and squeeze the trigger, will get you dead more often than not... Maybe flip off a shot to make him hesitate, but be smoking on outta there while 'shootin on the move'...

2. If there is shooting, go where they are not shooting... See #1 - run, hide, leave... Most shooters cannot hit someone who is moving sideways... Don't run straight away from the shooter unless it is the only route out of there - then lay down some fire as you go away <fast>.... Duck behind things that stop bullets - steel, concrete - drywall doesn't...

The ONLY reason to carry a gun is to survive - it is not to win the fight, or to prove you are right, or to show you have bigger cajones... If those are the reasons you carry, your odds of survival just plummeted to a dismal low - and your odds of doing prison time just went way up...

So, lets say you did everything right, you disengaged and moved away, but he ran after you and you were forced to blow him away as he came around the corner waving his gun...
Guess what?
The odds are better than 3 to 1 you will be charged with a crime by the prosecutor...
Why?
Well, he has to charge someone for having a shootout in a public street <and right before the election> and he can't afford to look soft on gun crimes... The BG is dead so he can't charge him - and there you stand smiling for the TV cameras...
He will point out to the jury that you chose to run around with a weapon and infer strongly that you were hoping to be able to kill someone... And so 12 people, who get their beliefs about guns and gun fights from 40 or 50 years of watching cheesy, fantasy, TV shows, get to decide if you were right or wrong... Not good odds, buddy...

So, if you choose to carry, you had better be Casper Milktoast... Even a 98 pound weakling will be able to use you for a door mat... You will run like a thief from even a simple argument... Why? Because having that gun on you will make you the bad guy if it escalates... Remember, every bullet comes with a lawyer attached...

Now, I expect some to take exception to what I wrote here... But let me tell ya, that being an EMR doc and having to go to the murder trials as an expert witness will make you a believer in being a really polite coward...

denny

FlaRanger
June 12, 2007, 01:00 PM
Which would you rather be shot with, a 9mm or .45? I'd take the knock down ability of the .45 over the high capacity of the 9mm anytime.

Olive Drab
June 12, 2007, 01:55 PM
id rather not be shot period... a well placed shot, especially a CNS hit will most likely incapacitate the threat regardless if the bullet is 124 or 230 grain

AK103K
June 12, 2007, 04:30 PM
Where do I get me one of them crystal balls that tells you how many rounds your going to need and at what distance? :)

If you want to see how well you "realistically" do under stress, get two or three friends and some airsoft pistols and see how well you do. I'll bet its not as well as you think, especially against multiple opponents, and you use more ammo than you might think, if you even know how many rounds you even fired. Of course, this is all assuming your starting even with no guns drawn, if you think your drawing against a gun in hand, better get another beer and think on it some more. ;)

Redneckrepairs
June 12, 2007, 06:04 PM
I dont get real excited about Cal. or Cap. I normally carry single stack 9mm. It will do the job if i do mine . Your reasonably normal predators will break and run at the appearance of a weapon , much less incoming rounds . Tho i carry a 9 due to a preference for autos for ccw, I fully believe if you cant solve the problem with a j frame and a speedloader you need a swat team not more rounds .

Olive Drab
June 12, 2007, 11:38 PM
Where do I get me one of them crystal balls that tells you how many rounds your going to need and at what distance?

If you want to see how well you "realistically" do under stress, get two or three friends and some airsoft pistols and see how well you do. I'll bet its not as well as you think, especially against multiple opponents, and you use more ammo than you might think, if you even know how many rounds you even fired. Of course, this is all assuming your starting even with no guns drawn, if you think your drawing against a gun in hand, better get another beer and think on it some more. everyone on the internet is William Tell. all this talk of adrenaline, raised heart right, flight or fight mechanism, elevated stress leves affecting accuracy is hogwash!

Hansen
June 13, 2007, 08:48 AM
everyone on the internet is William Tell. all this talk of adrenaline, raised heart rate, flight or fight mechanism, elevated stress levels affecting accuracy is hogwash!

No it really isn't. It effects people in different ways, but I will say it WILL effect even you in some way.

My question is have you been in a life or death ordeal? Not trying to be sarcastic at all, but that is really the only way to tell for your self in a true way. I have talked to several shooting victims recently and all of them had this things you mentioned effect them in some way.

There is a lot of BS on the internet, just got to filter that crap out.

easyG
June 13, 2007, 09:46 AM
I generally choose capacity over caliber in handguns for several reasons:


There is NO MAGIC BULLET.
Folks have survived being shot with every handgun caliber know to man.
Folks have taken numerous .45 and .357 rounds and lived to tell the tale.
So when it comes to 9mm and larger, there's not a lot of real effective difference between them.

Shot placement and accuracy trump caliber everytime.

I often shoot with one hand, and there's also the possibility that my wife might have to use the firearm as well, and she might need to shoot it with one hand too...so less recoil is better.

In the event of a prolonged shootout, more rounds between reloads is definitley an advantage.

And finally...

After a firefight, nobody ever said "Gee, I had too many bullets. Next time I'll carry less".

Olive Drab
June 13, 2007, 10:12 AM
Hansen,
I was in the Army and did a tour in Iraq so yes I am very familiar with stress affecting motor skills, making myself flinch, and affecting my shot placement in a negative way. my creds have been checked on socnet and shadowspear. Also, i was being sarcastic above.

AK103K
June 13, 2007, 05:33 PM
all this talk of adrenaline, raised heart right, flight or fight mechanism, elevated stress leves affecting accuracy is hogwash!
Just curious Olive Drab, did they just take you off the street somewhere, give you an M4 and send you to Iraq, or did you receive some training and idea of what to expect? I know that sounds silly, but the results would probably be pretty dramatic if the former was the case, dont you think?

I think theres a difference between those who have trained to deal with it, at least in some fashion, and have a fair idea of what to expect vs. those who havent.

Olive Drab
June 13, 2007, 09:42 PM
first off, why is there no quote button?
anyway, i think my point was missed. your/my accuracy will suffer in a gun fight. The stress/adrenaline/flight or flight/etc the factors affect everyone from the novice all the way up to the SMU operator. The amount those factors affect the shooter is reduced with more stress related training but it is still present. you will not shoot the same size group with your pistol at 10m on a paper target range vs a live threat. My personal accuracy with an m4 was noticeably worse.

David Armstrong
June 14, 2007, 07:24 AM
im not saying anything bad about a 9mm, i still carry a kahr pm9 on occasion, but there is no denying that a .45 is more effective.
Actually there is a lot of denying. There are differences, and any of those differences might be the one thing that makes a round more effective in a particular scenario. But any claims as to “more effective” across the board are questionable at best, particularly when one does not know the situation. I tend to fall into the camp with Hansen. I’m concerned about if it is reliable, easy to carry, and easy for me to use. Capacity and caliber are way down on the list of things that matter to me when looking at a CCW gun. Those two factors might become more important in a different situation, such as for LE use, woodsrunning, or so on.

Hansen
June 14, 2007, 09:21 AM
Hansen,
I was in the Army and did a tour in Iraq so yes I am very familiar with stress affecting motor skills, making myself flinch, and affecting my shot placement in a negative way. my creds have been checked on socnet and shadowspear. Also, i was being sarcastic above.

OK. Sorry! :):):)

knight0695
June 14, 2007, 03:53 PM
I say have best of both worlds just get an XD-45 13+1 of .45ACP at your disposal.:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Agios
June 14, 2007, 07:53 PM
I think this is a great thread... lot's of good discussion. Let me pose this. You're headed out and your safe has a 13 round 380 pistol, a 9 round or less 9 mm, a 6 round 38 special, a 5 round 357 revolver and a 7 round 45. They are all "compact" and you are proficient with each one. Which one do you take?

easyG
June 14, 2007, 08:45 PM
I would probably take the 9-round 9mm.
I'm more practiced in shooting the 9mm over the .380.

pumpkinheaver
June 14, 2007, 09:14 PM
My high capacity carry gun is an 8 shot single stack 1911. My 2 others are 5 shooters, one a .38 the other a .41 magnum.

David Armstrong
June 15, 2007, 01:22 PM
Which one do you take?
Where are you going? How are you dressed? What do you want the gun to do, both primary and secondary? They might all be compact, but there are going to be differences in dimensions and weight. Do those have a bearing on things? Lots of variables.

SIGLOCKAUR
June 17, 2007, 11:13 PM
I have both the 229 9mm Sig and the 220. Both have evrything those of us that love Sigs have. Excellent DA/SA (although nowadays you can have it anyway you want it), total;ly reliable, and very accurate. I carry the 229 almost exclusively. Yes their are probably very few situations that require over 9 rounds of high performance 9mm or .45. But if you do need it you need it bad. I'm a firm beliver in it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. In our current state of affairs it is not unusual to have someone on Meth or multiple gangbangers. You are going to have to make lots of holes fast to solve either situations. I lean towards having the extra insurance.

LightningJoe
June 18, 2007, 01:29 AM
Neither probably matters. Handguns don't produce incapacitating injuries without serendipitous shot placement. But they stop fights pretty reliably. How? Two mechanisms: Fear and demoralization. If these don't work on your opponent, nothing will stop him from doing whatever he came to do. He might die eventually, but that's later.


But, if I had to pick one, I'd pick capacity.

LightningJoe
June 18, 2007, 01:36 AM
an EMR doc and having to go to the murder trials as an expert witness will make you a believer in being a really polite coward...


k8do:


My fervent hope is that you're not talking about Texas. Maybe NJ?

normal
June 18, 2007, 02:32 AM
I agree with Knight, get a high capacity .45 like the XD and have the best of both worlds.:)

rezmedic54
June 18, 2007, 09:50 AM
I have seen a quote that says practice makes perfect. It doesn't practice makes permanent. Most of us here have never been shot at or in a life and death deal so it's very hard to say how you will act. We all hope to act accordingly but will never know for sure. That why I try to find folks that are into Air Soft as it is much closer to shooting a real gun than paint ball. Air soft gives you the opportunity to try some of your real world stuff and see if you survive the encounter most times you are your own worst enemy. The more you practice the better you get. Of all the instructors I have talked to that have real world they have all said pretty much the same thing your mind runs for the hills and your subconscious takes over. They have said the way you practice is the way you will fight so if you go out and stand tall that is what you will do. You need to change up your practices to moving, running, kneeling and almost anything else you can think of. It is kind off like when I was in Paramedic school the most and easiest answer to most questions where nobody read the book so anything is possible out there so you have to think outside the box more then you might like.

easyG
June 18, 2007, 10:42 AM
They have said the way you practice is the way you will fight so if you go out and stand tall that is what you will do. You need to change up your practices to moving, running, kneeling and almost anything else you can think of.

While it is fun to shoot airsoft and paintball, and while it's also fun to "run and gun" in combat senarios, most civilian self-defense shootings simple don't happen like that.

From everything I have ever seen, heard, or read, most civilian self-defense shootings occur within about 20' and seldom is there even a single reload.
There's really not much running, kneeling, dodging and such...mostly just really quick point and shoot affairs.
And usually with one-hand-shooting.

biere
June 18, 2007, 07:59 PM
For a primary ccw I want something like a glock 36 with I think a 6 round magazine, it has been a few years since I sold mine.

For the 9mm in a similar size firearm I would want more rounds than that.

Basically if someone asked me about a 3 or 4 shot mag fed something or other I would question capacity.

But get to 6 and mag fed and my worries go away for the most part. All remaining worries go towards spare mags and me being able to quickly reload the firearm.

Overall I feel that finding a reliable platform that fits your hands well and points well is the most important thing to do.

I like the 1911 single stacks and eventually went with the 45acp versions because it is easy to find mags in that caliber.

These days I don't worry about if the 45acp round is the best choice, it is an adequate choice in my opinion.

I don't worry about capacity, I worry about making each round hit and working on my skills with the platform I have chosen.

That is just my opinion on this subject these days. There are a lot of things to be working on besides figuring out the best handgun round or capacity count.

Find something that fits.
Get real training.
Practice.

If in training you decide your choice of handgun sucks, start over and use your new knowledge to make a better choice for your needs.

Olive Drab
June 18, 2007, 09:08 PM
Overall I feel that finding a reliable platform that fits your hands well and points well is the most important thing to do.

I like the 1911 single stacks and eventually went with the 45acp versions because it is easy to find mags in that caliber.

These days I don't worry about if the 45acp round is the best choice, it is an adequate choice in my opinion.i think that sums it up perfectly. what fits the user and what the user is familiar with and trusts is the ideal concealed carry handgun.

AWMP
June 28, 2007, 08:34 PM
I'm sure like many on this board and others you will go from 9mm, 40SW to 45acp and back again. There is always a new pistol coming out or a buddy that has one that he swears by (this week).
We carry Sig 228s, great pistols. I love 1911's (had them all and now only have one, Commander Size SW1911pd, great pistol), but I never really got into the .40SW until I had fired a Sig Sauer 229 SAS. I had fired .40SW in almost every brand of pistol except the Sig and now it is my primary carry pistol.
Get what you like, feels good, will practice with and will carry no matter what. Don't get something that you are not really sure about or will only carry part time and as soon as you hit the front door you take it off for relief. Don't worry too much this process of finding the right one will take years, but heck that is the fun of it.

knight0695
June 28, 2007, 09:29 PM
Another thought i guess would be is how good are you at your shot placement in a high pace atmosphere.

Rmstn1580
July 10, 2007, 07:37 PM
.40 hollow points. With the Glock 23 you can have 13 rounds with a rather high-caliber bullet. The hollow point part makes it even better.

ATW525
July 11, 2007, 07:15 AM
In pistols I like capacity, in revolvers I like caliber. I feel relatively confident whether I have a Glock 19 or a big bore N frame six shooter on my belt.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 11, 2007, 09:54 AM
This all depends on your model of the gun fight.

Is it the one mugger scenario?

Is it the rare multiple target scenario or even a single attacker where the shots are hard and you need more than one? Of course, if you need to fire more than one, you ain't doing your job, boy - blah, blah, blah commando, blah, blah.

That being said if you think that it could happen that you need a lot of ammo, then you need a lot of ammo - thus given that quality 9mm is as efficacious as 45 for most purposes - go for that.

At the NTI, when we were given J frames and four bad guys - ammo issues were a touch exciting.

eltorrente
July 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
In choosing a pistol which is more important to you magazine capacity or caliber and why? As an example if you like SIGs would you choose an 8 shot .45ACP P220 or a 16 shot 9mm P226? Would the make of the pistol effect your choice?

Well you live in California, so it doesn't matter.

You're limited to 10 round magazines, so you may as well get a .45 with 10 round capacity and don't worry about it. :)

donglock26
July 11, 2007, 03:44 PM
I split the difference and got a G-23.

AK103K
July 11, 2007, 04:47 PM
This all depends on your model of the gun fight.
I like how you put that! :)

I guess its all a carry over from the "kick'em in the balls" solves ALL problems in a fight mentality, eh? :)

thinktwice
August 25, 2007, 07:25 PM
Now days you can have big rounds and large capaicty. The Glock 21(45)and the XD -45 are just 2 examples. They both hold just as many rounds or close to most 9's. I carry one in the pipe and 13 in the mag. thats 14 rounds of big 45's.
So you really can "Have you cake and eat it to"