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View Full Version : ithica pistol grip shotgun? need info


marlin
April 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
i have an ithica pistol grip shot gun. my dad has had since the 60's he got it off one of his friends 15 inch barrel nickle etched reciever it was made from the factory like not custom. I tried to look it up on the web and books and couldn't find anything about it if anyone knows something about it i would appreciate it.

Scorch
April 12, 2007, 03:15 PM
That was called a car gun or road blocker or something like that. They were made in 12 ga and 20 ga. A friend of mine in California found one in his grandfather's stuff after his grandfather (former cop) died. We called Ithaca and asked if it could be refitted with barrels and a regular stock and were told to turn it in (we were both about 20 years old).

RsqVet
April 12, 2007, 03:22 PM
If the barrel is under 18 inches and the weapon is not registered as a short barreled shotgun then it's a big no-no.

Destroy it (or the barrel if you can remove the barrel) or turn it in, most LE including ATF is good about folks who find out they have an illegal weapon and want to surrender it, however again it could be a headache and the same could be acomplished with 5 min of work with an oxy-acetalyne torch.

jrothWA
April 15, 2007, 03:12 AM
an old "Auto-Burglar"
I think originally made in the thirties for LEO and somewhat re-issued @ Col.R. applegate's behuest in the early 60's.
Made for easy storage in vehicle and gave LEO additional firepower.
Presently, are considered to be under National Firearms Act of 1930 (&GCA,68)
cannot be privately owned unless originally registered at sale.
ATFE is never going to allow a amnesty re-registration to make legal.

Bill DeShivs
April 15, 2007, 01:11 PM
Ithaca made 2 guns of this type- the Auto & Burgular gun, a double-barrel 20 ga. pistol grip in 2 different versions. Barrels will be 10 or 12 inches.
And a pump-action "Shorty" in 20 ga. and 12 ga.
The A&B gun was made until 1934. The Shorty was made in the late 1970s, early 1980s.
There was a copy of the A&B made in 1969 by Holland Fire Arms.
None of these sound like yours.
The gun could be illegal, as stated.
Can you post markings, or pictures?
Bill

marlin
April 16, 2007, 09:14 AM
this gun came factory made wasn't sawed off

Csspecs
April 16, 2007, 09:47 AM
Thats not the problem.

The barrels are too short, it does not matter if they came that was or not.

See if he has a tax stamp for it as a Any Other Weapon (AOW) or as a Short Barreled Shotgun. If he does then there might be a way for you to legally own it. Other wise there is really nothing you can do.

The shotgun is registered as a NFA item restricted the same way as a machine gun or silencer.

marlin
April 16, 2007, 10:49 AM
no he doesn't have any papers to own it for the short barrel he got it a long time ago of one of his friends

Csspecs
April 16, 2007, 11:31 AM
Does the barrel come off? maybe you could get a gunsmith to thread it and add some sort of permanent extension to bring it up to 18 inches with a overall of 26 (or is it 28) inches. If the barrel does not come off you are not going to find a gunsmith that will touch it.

Also you are in the USA right? If not the laws maybe total different.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 is what restricts shotguns to a barrel length of 18 inches, and regulates shotguns with barrels under 18 inches as either AOW or SBS. Without the tax stamp the gun is totally illegal in the US, your father and his friend both broke the law for him to have the gun now. If you have it your in the same position.

As far as the US government is concerned you might as well have a hand grenade or bazooka and or machine gun. The penalties for breaking the law (NFA) are VERY severe ranging from ten years in prison to half your family being shot in a raid.... Well just because thats not an official punishment does not stop it from happening but the prison time is real.

KALIFORNIST
April 16, 2007, 03:33 PM
I disagree with destroying it or turning it in.There is no way Id throw away any gun from my family that has history,legal or not.I would maybe remove the barrel and store at another location then the action and I also wouldnt go around showing people and taking it to the range.besides I would be beyond furious if 10 years later they changed the laws in favor of shorter barrels(highly unlikley but still).

RsqVet
April 16, 2007, 05:00 PM
Well Kalifornist that's very brilliant... go up the river with bubba for 10 years and after that NO GUNS EVER all for a gun that I can basically go out and buy in any pawnshop here in town minus the fact that the barrel will not be short for about the price of a new 870. Not to mention that the 3inch differance really does nto matter a whole heck of a lot, heck here in AZ anyone who wants to drop the money on a tax stamp can have short barreled gun however I see dang few folks who actually go to the trouble or expense to lose a few inches.

BAD ADVICE, we are not talking some kind of rare, one of a kind or storied piece here, and frankly even if you were talking about the grease gun the killed Rommel or something it's STILL not worth wrecking you life over, though in cases of RARE or HISTORIC unregistered class 3 items transfer to a museum CAN sometiems be arranged.

The chance of the law changing is about nil in regards to short barreled shotguns, heck there are designs from teh 20's or 30's that are collectable, single shot pieces that are still NFA items... and even if the law did change, go to walmart, buy an 870 and cut it as short as your heart desires.

KALIFORNIST
April 16, 2007, 05:28 PM
did you miss the part where I said remove the barrel and store in a sep location?and not show it to people or go to the range with it?do you have police going through ur stuff all the time or just every now and then?lets be realistic here.1 thing I am unsure of though is barrel length.can u get into trouble if all u have is a shortened barrel but do not have the gun it belongs to?Sure I can probably rebuy some things I have gotten from my family but I hold value in the history of some things.I have the .22 my grandpa taught me how to shoot with.If a law comes out next week that .22s are illegal should I run out and give it up?You do want u want with ur familly Heirlooms but I think Ill keep mine no matter what liberals say.Just gonna have to take precaustions.If My opinion is wrong by everyone elses standards please let me know and I will keep this type of opinion to my self.Also maybe what I am saying is best left unsaid and if so I will edit and deleate later.

Rocked
April 16, 2007, 06:12 PM
I think just owning the barrel is illegal. Not sure about that though. Otherwise why not just keep an extra 14 incher for that 870?

But is there anything stopping him from registerering it now?

Ruger4570
April 16, 2007, 06:15 PM
If I found that particular gun or a machine gun in fact in my Fathers closet and wanted to keep it and not get into trouble, I would have it made permanetly inoperable, like remove the firing pins and welding the firing pin holes closed. Maybe have the chambers steel plugged and welded, anything to make it never useable again. Now you don't really have a gun any more, just some metal and wood that looks just looks like a gun.

KALIFORNIST
April 16, 2007, 06:25 PM
ruger thats a good idea.I think I would go that route then if there was no other option.I have seen it done on old single actions that are used for decoration.

Bill DeShivs
April 16, 2007, 06:28 PM
There is a lot of misinformation being spread here. It is not illegal to own just the barrel-as long as the receiver is not in your posession. Making the gun unserviceable will not circumvent the law. It will still be illegal. We don't even know if this gun is below legal length, or even what model it is. More information would help.
Bill

Csspecs
April 16, 2007, 07:46 PM
If my options are lose/destroy gun, or to have a tad more ugly I would take the ugly route. I know that a batch of saiga 12s came in with to short of barrels and they silver soldered a extra bit of metal onto them to make them legal. You may be able to do that as I said.

You can't "deactivate" the gun as the ATF says "once a gun always a gun".

Measure your barrel with a dowel rod down the barrel with the action closed (NO SHELLS IN THE GUN).

RsqVet
April 16, 2007, 11:46 PM
To streighten out a few things here...

Regardless of rifle or shotgun it is not explicitly illegal to own a short rifle barrel (under 16 inches) or shotgun barrel (under 18 inches), hece if you want to you can buy short 870 barrels relitivly easily on the open market (though remmington restricts them at the factory they tricle out rather stedially into the sommon market) or short AR 15 barreles / uppers all day long.

Anyone can also buy all the AR15 lowers or 870 recivers that thier little heart desires as long as you can legally own a title I firearm.

This is why in ads for short barreles or certin other things you see the expression "all NFA rules apply"; it's a subtle warning to NOT be an idiot.

Owning the two things together, i.e. the reciever and the short barrel EVEN if not assembled and EVEN if lacking all of the parts for assembly is ill advisable. It makes one guilty of "conspiracy" to assemble a prohibited firearm. Of course they have to make that conviction stick however as it's a matter of documentation of what you are in possession of it's a tough fight if you want to try and fight it. ATF got tired of folks who were not caught red handed with weapons in an illegal configuration when everyone knew darn well that was what was going on.

To deactivate the firearm the reciver would have to cut to ATF specs and a non-functional reciver substituted. Perminintly attaching a barrel extenshion has some merit if one wanted to spend the money and could figure out a way to do it in a functional and decent looking manner. One way might be to put a duck bill spreader on it (makes the shot gun pattern fan shaped for greater spread).... China Lake in the 60's developed this combat shotguns and at liest one SEAL used it on a 37, a few years ago I saw a company was making one in all steel.. not out of tubular stock like they were made in the 60's but out of a billiet of steel. Not sure if they are still out there and don't knwo how one would fashon one without specs but woudl be an intresting and historic idea.

And Kalifornist, no I do not routinly have the police searching my house, however I also have an acute sense of the cost / benefit curve in life and unregistered short barreled shotguns simply fall off this curve in every manner I can think of no matter how you stack it.

DPris
April 17, 2007, 12:35 AM
Marlin,
Not trying to embarrass you, but you do have a highly illegal weapon (if the barrel's under 16 inches) that can land you with a federal prison sentence, hefty legal bills, and the loss of your rights to possess ANY firearm for the rest of your life.
You may be able to hide it, or hide the parts, but my best advice would be to get rid of it. If the ATF people, or local law enforcement, find you in possession (even if the parts are disassembled), it is no legal defense under federal law that you did not cut the barrel back. The issue will simply be that you have a longarm with a barrel length that required registration and a tax stamp, and neither was done anywhere along the way. As a retired LE, I can tell you that totally unforseeable occurances (fire, earthquake, burglary, etc.) frequently bring "hidden" things to the attention of the police in ways you'd never even think about.
The ATF will not allow you to register it in your name, it's beyond reason to think the laws governing that class of firearm will loosen, and you may have a hard time finding a qualified gunsmith who'd work on it to modify the barrel.
I'm all for keeping treasured family heirloom guns in the family, but you have to balance out the equation, and in this case it would not balance for me. The risk is not worth it.
Denis

Ruger4570
April 17, 2007, 10:53 AM
I guess I learned something about BATF. I "assumed" that you could deactivate it permanetly and be good. My mistake.

Csspecs
April 17, 2007, 01:12 PM
Edit. Mis-read what dpris wrote.

If I had the gun that marlin says he has. I would get the barrel off and call around for a gun smith to weld a sleeve on it. Once the barrel is 18 inches work from there.

Or I would smash the barrel and receiver flat and throw it in the trash.

Bill DeShivs
April 17, 2007, 02:11 PM
Marlin
What are the markings on the gun? Is it a pump, double barrel, or single shot?
Is the pistol grip wood or plastic? What is the exact barrel length?
Bill

mustangdan1963
April 18, 2007, 01:44 PM
Marlin, it's not been mentioned yet, but at this point, the option of not telling anyone is out the window...You've discussed the fact that you have an illegal firearm on a public forum...sorry, the secret is out...I'd destroy it if I were you.

mikejonestkd
April 18, 2007, 02:52 PM
marlin seems to have left the building, and from the content and quality of his posts I am assumming he/she was just having fun with us, probably a 10 year old that got on the internet...

Csspecs
April 18, 2007, 03:24 PM
More like a ATF or other group probing for someone like KALIFORNIST, now they might have a lead. The spelling is so that we feel the guy is a stupid redneck like we are supposed to be :D .

For the record I would never even think of owning a gun that was not totally legal. I like to follow every law exactly the way it is written no matter how wrong I think it is.

Edit: It was pointed out to me that I came across as being a dick, I can see how one would think that reading my post in the light of day. I was being sarcastic, less than perfect spelling is something that does not really matter online.

KALIFORNIST
April 18, 2007, 04:32 PM
Csspecs,man you are killing me.when did a gun forum become a spelling B?why agonize over details like spelling and grammer if I am getting my point across?As to the issue of being a redneck,well you are probably right but I consider you a Dick for pointing it out in the manner you did.He recieved a good amount of throw it away/destroy posts why cant I state a "why not keep it for memories but leave it locked up" type of post?You think I am the only one here with a old non registered gun that probably isnt all the way legal from my granpappy kind of situation?Also with all the horrible things going on in the country Id like to think the BATF has bigger fish to fry then me.

DPris
April 18, 2007, 06:58 PM
Kal,
This is more than a matter of merely having an old unregistered gun (not even a misdemeanor in most locales), it's a matter of possessing an unregistered NFA firearm, which is a federal felony.
The advice you gave was to violate federal law, and regardless of whether that would be your choice or not, it remains bad advice.
Can you get away with breaking the law? Sure, in one form or another millions of people get away with breaking thousands of laws every day. Is this one worth breaking? Not to most of us. The risk is simply too great.
Think you can just hide it & feel safe because the cops have no reason to search your house? Think again. As I mentioned, circumstances you'd never even imagine can legally bring cops into your home. Been there & done it. :)
You can certainly make your "Keep It" post, but that's why you're not getting a lot of support on the idea.
And, should such a gun come to the attention of the ATF, they'll go to town on it. They have about zero sense of humor on such matters. There might be a plea bargain worked out to avoid jail time, but it'd certainly rack up a tidy legal bill, and would most likely result in the loss of future gun possession rights.
Denis

KALIFORNIST
April 18, 2007, 07:27 PM
Fine, Im sold throw it away.

Ruger4570
April 18, 2007, 10:05 PM
It might be the best solution in your circumstance. You have an Illegal shotgun, regardless of the history. Keep it and maybe pay a severe price to own it,, it is your choice,

Csspecs
April 20, 2007, 03:09 PM
Sorry KALIFORNIST, I was being sarcastic. I thought I had that worded so it would be obvious.

The whole big green smiley face at the end did not tip you off that I was not serious? :D :D :D

I will make a note in my post.

KALIFORNIST
April 21, 2007, 12:13 AM
eh,well no harm, no foul.Any one seen my sister/wife around.she ran off with my cousin Earl.

44 AMP
April 22, 2007, 04:48 PM
I know the machine gun registry has been frozen since 86, but several have implied that the SBR is also closed. Is this correct? Has the ATF prohibited further registration of short barreled firearms? I know that to be in compliance, you have to have the Fed approval and tax stamp BEFORE you have the firearm, but have they prohibited new applications? Or are they allowing new applications, but not approving any?

Csspecs
April 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
The SBS registry is still open, the problem is that you can't have it under 18 inches when you start.

You start with a normal shotgun and then jump through all the hoops and then you can have it cut down but if the barrel is already shorter than 18 there is no way to start the process.

RJay
April 22, 2007, 11:19 PM
It is listed with the ATF as "Any other Firearm" , I believe he could get a stamp for it. As being rare, don't know. Ithaca supposedly made 20 special order Auto & Burglar guns with barrels over 10" long. If the barrel is over 10.25 inches long and it is an original barrel, then yes, it is a rare gun. Only 11 of these guns have surfaced, this might be number 12. Stranger things have happened. Before I cut it up or turned it in ( and I hate to say this but if you turn it in to the police, then some property room Sgt. will add it to his collection) I would do every thing possible to make it legal, if all else fails, then separate the barrel and stock and keep them in different houses. There is no valid reason for these guns to be listed as AOW and the ATF could very well at future date remove them from the "bad" list.

Ruger4570
April 23, 2007, 09:34 PM
RJay: There is about as much chance of the BATF changing their stance on a gun like this as Hillery dropping out of her Presidential run. Why would anyone want to figure out a way of circumnavigating the law to keep a gun like this. It has no practcal use other than killing someone. I would never suggest to someone how to "get around" the law with this gun. It is clearly illegal today. It has no value to anyone other than the mans appreciation of a gun that was in the family,, way back when it was ok. It isn't ok today, regardless of the sentiments. It is Illegal, pure and simple. Get caught with it,, and your butt is fried.

mikejonestkd
April 24, 2007, 01:18 PM
marlin is long gone, the shotgun probably never existed except in his imagination.

Lets close this thread...please.

Csspecs
April 24, 2007, 04:26 PM
It has no practcal use other than killing someone.

If it was legal I would say your dead wrong but seeing as its an unregistered one that we are talking about, yep your right. An illegal shotgun has no legitimate purpose.