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View Full Version : All handguns must be shipped overnight right?


TigerRose
April 9, 2007, 01:29 PM
On March 29th I special ordered 2 handguns at Sportsman's warehouse and as of today (April 9th) it's still not here. I called on April 3rd asking about the order and they say it was shipped UPS ground. I checked a UPS, USPS, Fedex and gunbroker.com and all their policy states all handguns need to be shipped overnight. So how did Sportsman's manage to ship my two handguns ground? They say the guns might be in tomorrow, but I doubt it. I asked for a tracking number last weekend from them or for them to use the tracking number and check online to see a scheduled delivery date. They said they will and call me back later but I haven't received a phone call yet.

The Law
April 9, 2007, 01:34 PM
I had similar problems with a gunshop on Gunbroker. They shipped my pistol UPS Ground (in clear violation of UPS policy) and it was not indicated on the auction.

I don't think there is any legal requirement that a gun go overnight. However, it would reduce the possibilities of theft. It's frustrating, but you have to wait. Keep bugging them to get you a tracking number.

SOSARMS
April 9, 2007, 02:29 PM
Not all abide by the UPS shipping policy......Not only did I receive a handgun UPS ground, but the ammo for it was in the case with the pistol......Not real good !!! And it was shipped by an FFL..:eek:

If i ship by UPS or Fedex, i'll ship next day saver, if available, or Registered USPS ground service.....which is much cheaper and legal.

rem33
April 9, 2007, 03:01 PM
To bad we need to even ask such a question it should be as it was before 1968 IMHO.
But alas it is not.

TigerRose
April 9, 2007, 03:22 PM
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html
"You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services"

Does that just apply to non ffl then?

SOSARMS
April 9, 2007, 03:28 PM
NO...that applies to all, FFL included.......They are trying to control and protect the shipment, not necessarily the shipper.......

tulsamal
April 9, 2007, 03:35 PM
NO...that applies to all, FFL included.....

Don't forget that an FFL can mail a handgun to another FFL using the Post Office. A lot cheaper.

Whether it is legal to mail a handgun UPS something other than overnight, of course it's legal. A UPS rule isn't a law. Now whether you could have issues if the package disappears.... that's a possible sticking point.

Read how APW tells people to ship handguns:

http://www.apwcogan.com/company.htm

Gregg

TigerRose
April 9, 2007, 05:14 PM
In order to ship ground then it must be stripped and transported in two different shipment boxes. Wow that's something new, but Sportsman's did state they ship all overnight and I'm just surprised it went ground. Now there's a possibility that they shipped ground....disassembled WOW!

BerettaBuckeye
April 9, 2007, 05:47 PM
In order to ship ground then it must be stripped and transported in two different shipment boxes


As far as I know a serial numbered frame is technically ( and legally) a "gun" so I think that whole deal about splitting it between two boxes is a bunch of bologna. You would end up with one box containing a gun (that must go overnight to be within UPS rules) and one box containing some parts that could go ground. I could be wrong but I don't think I am

BerettaBuckeye
April 9, 2007, 05:52 PM
Oh yeah I forgot to say....it sounds like Sportsman's is jerking you around. I guess if the shipped USPS it could take this long but if you were told overnight then it should have been overnight. And there's no excuse for them not telling you how/when they shipped and not providing you with a tracking number. In my opinion of course

TigerRose
April 9, 2007, 08:32 PM
Your probably right BB, just the http://www.apwcogan.com/company.htm link was kind of screwed up.
I e-mailed Stuart Utgaard CEO & Chairman of Sportsman's Warehouse earlier this afternoon hopefully I get some kind of reply but I doubt he'll even care.
And I don't know how they got around to shipping a handgun ground if the UPS policy on their site says next day only.

Tibu
April 9, 2007, 09:29 PM
A bit off-topic but did gunbroker go under? The site is currently 404 not found...

tulsamal
April 9, 2007, 11:47 PM
As far as I know a serial numbered frame is technically ( and legally) a "gun" so I think that whole deal about splitting it between two boxes is a bunch of bologna.

That what I used to think too until I talked to the owner of APW on the phone for about half an hour one day. He sends and receives more handguns from UPS every day than most of us would see in a gunshop. I started arguing with him that the receiver/frame was "the gun." Well, that's what ATF says. That's the legal definition as far as the US Government is concerned. But UPS rules and ATF definitions don't necessarily go together.

APW was told explicitly by UPS that they didn't want "handguns" being shipped any way except overnight. He asked them what WAS a handgun. They said they were worried that somebody would steal a handgun and then use it to commit a crime. They were worried about a fully functional handgun in a package. So he asked them what if the handgun was all taken apart and mailed in two packages? They said that would be fine as long as each package was truly "non-functional" without the other. UPS doesn't consider a stripped 1911 frame a "handgun" no matter what ATF calls it!

Since I had that conversation, I haven't yet sent APW a handgun for hard chroming. When I do, I'm going to give it a shot. I'm going to send the frame UPS and certified but not overnight. I will insure if for the worth of those parts. I will call it machine parts or something if that comes up. The slide and barrel will make a nice compact package and I will mail them US Post Office. Insure for their value. But not anything rapid or expensive.

It will be more steps but it will sure be cheaper!

Gregg

Don H
April 10, 2007, 12:44 AM
So he asked them what if the handgun was all taken apart and mailed in two packages? They said that would be fine as long as each package was truly "non-functional" without the other.
Did he happen to get that in writing? Verbal responses aren't worth the paper they're written on.:D

OnTheFly
April 10, 2007, 09:26 AM
Is this related to how the government looks at what constitutes a firearm such as an AR15. A lower for an AR15 has to be shipped to/from an FFL, but the rest of the rifle can ship however you want...right?

Or is an assault rifle completely different?

tulsamal
April 10, 2007, 11:40 AM
Did he happen to get that in writing? Verbal responses aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Mr. Coogan does run a business where people send and receive handguns to him. UPS makes deliveries there literally every day. And he advises customers how to ship their handguns right there on his website. Now if I was a business owner in that situation and I wasn't TOTALLY SURE I was right, I wouldn't put it right out there on my web site. I might mention it as an option in a phone call but I wouldn't actually put it on the website.

The MAIN thing to me is that people separate what the ATF says from what UPS says. UPS rules are not the law. They don't even follow their own rules. My wife was going to Claremore and I asked her to drop off my Glock 17 at the UPS place. The address clearly said Glock, Smyna, GA. She told them it was a gun. And they shipped it some slow way because she wanted to save money. And she didn't even get insurance! I think she paid $10! I was a basket case until I heard from Glock that they had it. Now I don't send her to UPS.

I would NEVER try to "slip in" a handgun to the Post Office. Then you are messing with the Feds and actual law. Try to get past some stupid business rule? Especially after talking to Mr. Coogan about what the local UPS manager told them they "really meant?" Good enough for me!

Call APW and talk to him yourself.

Gregg

tulsamal
April 10, 2007, 11:43 AM
A lower for an AR15 has to be shipped to/from an FFL, but the rest of the rifle can ship however you want...right?

No, if you really mean "ship." Yes, if you mean "ship after buying." If you are making an internet purchase of an AR receiver then the seller has to send it to an FFL so that you can do the whole 4473 thing. (But that seller doesn't have to be an FFL.) But if you are just mailing your AR to somebody for some custom work, etc, then no, you don't need an FFL to be involved at all. Not according to the Feds anyway. Some nanny states probably see it differently but I don't live in one of those places.

Gregg

Don H
April 10, 2007, 11:53 AM
I guess my point is that since Mr. Coogan only has a verbal comment from the "local UPS manager", if the frame were to get "lost" or damaged, would UPS cover the cost since the distinction between frame and handgun isn't made in their tariff manual? Would the Loss Prevention folks go with the BATF definition of a handgun? It *could* be an expensive learning experience.

Abstract
April 10, 2007, 01:18 PM
I'm going to send the frame UPS and certified but not overnight. I will insure if for the worth of those parts. I will call it machine parts or something if that comes u

Now you're breaking federal law! You MUST disclose that a firearm is being shipped. BATFE does consider the frame as the firearm. You can't ship a firearm frame and call it "machine parts" without breaking federal law. You'd also be in a world of hurt trying to get your insurance claim for "machine parts" paid. Regardless of what you insure a package for, you must show proof of loss when you file the claim. You don't really think that you'd get paid $5000 for a Glock, do you? Glock shipped a pistol to me, years ago, UPS ground, and insured it for $5000.

SOSARMS
April 11, 2007, 10:22 AM
Todays shipment to us makes 3 for 3.......... That is 3 handguns shipped next day air WITH live ammo in the same box.......which is against all shipping and ATF regulations !! And to boot.....all shipped by an FFL.......amazing !:eek:

EOD Guy
April 11, 2007, 01:27 PM
Now you're breaking federal law! You MUST disclose that a firearm is being shipped. BATFE does consider the frame as the firearm. You can't ship a firearm frame and call it "machine parts" without breaking federal law. You'd also be in a world of hurt trying to get your insurance claim for "machine parts" paid. Regardless of what you insure a package for, you must show proof of loss when you file the claim. You don't really think that you'd get paid $5000 for a Glock, do you? Glock shipped a pistol to me, years ago, UPS ground, and insured it for $5000.

No law is broken as long as the lower is shipped to an FFL holder. Notification is only required when shipping to a nonlicensee.

You are right about the insurance problem if the contents are not acurately described.