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View Full Version : what is wrong with winchester?


kristop64089
April 8, 2007, 08:57 PM
I am looking to buy a home defense shotgun. I want a Black short barrel, buttstock. I like the Winchester defender (plus I have two older 12 ga wins)
But, I also like the Mossberg 500. What are the pros and cons of the 2 weighed against each other?

liliysdad
April 8, 2007, 10:50 PM
Id go with an 870.

Of the two mentioned, the Mossberg is the clear winner. The Winchester, while a nice bird gun, simply is not up to the task of hard use. The receivers are soft and prone to damage, the so called "speed pump" rotary bolt is somewhat fragile, and overall, the gun is not a working gun.

AMT8951
April 9, 2007, 08:24 AM
Both are good, solid guns, well suited for home defense use. However, there are a lot more after market parts around for the Mossberg.

Dfariswheel
April 9, 2007, 02:47 PM
My experience as a pro gunsmith was, the Winchester was a better built, better quality gun, with less problems than the Mossberg.

Both guns have cast aluminum receivers with stamped and plastic internal parts.

There are about the same amount of after-market accessories available for both, but the Mossberg has a lot more FACTORY options available.

Next, Winchester is out of business, and the Model 1300 is no longer being made.

To choose between the Mossberg and the Winchester, handle both guns and choose the one you like the best as far as look and feel. Either will last you a lifetime with a little care.

Last, as usual, my personal preference is for the Remington 870, which has a forged and milled steel receiver, and heavy-duty steel internal parts.
The 870 will FAR outlast either the Mossberg or Winchester, will go a lot longer without any problems or broken parts, and if a shotgun accessory is made, it's made for the 870 so you have a MUCH larger selection.

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 05:51 PM
Can i get the Remy in black with 18" barrel?

Dfariswheel
April 9, 2007, 06:17 PM
Yes, in a number of versions.

In the Express line, there's the Express 18" synthetic with or without a factory magazine extender.
These are 18" barreled, black synthetic stock, black finish guns with a bead front sight and a Cylinder Bore choke.

There's a new Tactical shotgun series of black finished guns with tactical stocks.

In a more expensive gun, there's the new 870 Magnum Marine XCS.
The standard Magnum Marine has a satin nickel finish, but the new XCS is all black and super durable.
It also has a 18" barrel, black stock, and the super-tough black XCS finish.

Here's a link where you can download Remington's 2007 shotgun catalog showing the commercial 870's:
Look down the page to the listing on which gun catalog to see, NOT the listings on the right side of the page.
http://www.remington.com/products/2007_new_products/

Also, look at the Tactical series on the same listing.

In the top of the line, there's the more expensive Remington 870P Police guns.
These come in a wide range of options including 18" or 20" barrels, with or without extended magazines, bead, rifle, or ghost ring sights, a variety of black stocks some with internal magazines that hold 4 spare rounds, and the Remington R3 super recoil pad.

The Police guns are a little harder to get, and cost more, but are the best pump gun made by far.
http://www.remingtonle.com/

Even the Express guns are a definite step up from the Mossberg or Winchester, and the Police guns are the absolute Cadillac of defense pump guns.

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 06:49 PM
On this purchase cost is an issue. I don't want to spend over 250. I am willing to buy a used gun, but, all that i am seeing are pretty abused.

I am fairly mechanicaly inclined. and I wonder...the plastic parts you speak of in Mossberg/winchester, are they user servicable?

With winchester out of buisness, are they going to continue to offer aftermarket parts? All of my othe SG's are winnies(older versions) and they have never failed me. That's were my gut is leading me, nothing against remingtons, but for what I want I think they are to much money.

liliysdad
April 9, 2007, 06:54 PM
You can get an 870 Express for under 250, and used police trade in 870 Wingmasters and Polices all day long for 150-250. With an 870, you will get a far better gun than either the Winchester of the Mossberg.

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 07:12 PM
What i've been seeing for that price range have a fair amount of wear to them, with that being said with all the outer wear i Worry about inner wear

liliysdad
April 9, 2007, 07:17 PM
Not much you can do to hurt an 870, seriously. Beat and ugly will make no difference as far as function./

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 08:09 PM
are the stovks interchangeable on all 870 models w/all years

liliysdad
April 9, 2007, 08:26 PM
Yes.

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 08:35 PM
Would 365 +18(shipping) + 25(ffl) =$408 be to much? for a NIB 18" synthetic 870(7 rndr) be to much?

B. Adams
April 9, 2007, 08:35 PM
I like my 1300's, I have 3 of them. A 26" bird gun and two Defenders. I like them enough that I'll probably buy more, and when I get sick of buying them I'll get a couple FN police shotguns because they're the same gun with a defferent name. I like the way they shoot, I like the way they work, and I know how to take them apart and put them back together again. Parts are available, but some are very difficult to find at a reasonable price. Barrels are a good example of a hard to find part. I got all my 1300's for under $200 each.

I've had a 20ga 870 since I was a kid, and it's a fine gun too, but I outgrew the 20ga a while ago. I like my 1300's a whole lot, but I sure wouldn't refuse an 870 if someone handed one to me. If they handed me a Mossberg, I'd hand it back. Every mossberg I've ever touched has made me cringe, I just can't stand them. :barf:

For a HD gun, my first choice would be a 1300 or FN, followed by an 870, followed by a Benelli Nova, although I dislike the fact that you can't get OEM hi-cap magazines or extensions for them. Remington makes a fine gun, with a zillion aftermarket parts and accessories, and they're relatively cheap.

Slugthrower
April 9, 2007, 08:40 PM
This is what happened to the Winchester 1300, it was mutated by FN. Yes it is a 1300, it just has new stampings. Interesting in that they make a riot model that has interchangable chokes.

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF004&gid=FNG002&mid=FNM0015

B. Adams
April 9, 2007, 08:49 PM
Would 365 +18(shipping) + 25(ffl) =$408 be to much? for a NIB 18" synthetic 870(7 rndr) be to much?

I don't know why you'd pay $365 when Bud's Gun Shop has them for $295. Unless you're talking about the one with the Knoxx stock, but I'd skip the pistol grip if I were you. And you should at least look locally before you order online, a local dealer may be close in price.

Oh, and by the way, the thing that originally drew me to the Defender over the 18" 870 was the one-piece magazine tube. All the Remington models, including the Police models, have an extension rather than a longer tube. I prefer the Winchester design.

kristop64089
April 9, 2007, 09:25 PM
Can't find any locally right now(i'm impulsive)

rugerdude
April 9, 2007, 10:30 PM
Don't worry about getting the remington so much.

I have used a few mossbergs (maverick 88, 500a and 590), a couple remingtons, and a winchester and I have to say that they are all fine guns.

Yes the 500 has *gasp* an aluminum reciever and some *gasp* plastic parts. Look, if the aluminum and plastic hindered the gun so much, why do so many gun manufacturers use it? Mossberg put plastic where is was economical and safe to do so, and they put steel where is counts. The aluminum reciever is of little consequence other than making a lighter gun. You must realize that in a pump-action, the reciever isn't getting stressed like it would be in a semi-auto.

I love my 500a and I would trust my life to it. It is a fine gun.

If you're a winchester man, and you find one that suits you and the price is right, go for it. You'll have a gun that you know how to operate if you're under stress.

Don't let the remington guys sway you too much; if you want a good HD gun, go with what you're comfortable with, and what you can afford: Winchester defender

If you want to go out and put 500,000 rounds of 3" buckshot loads through your gun while you bang your trigger guard, safety, and reciever on rocks all day: Go with the remington. that extra 10 ounces of steel makes the gun indestructible!!!!!:rolleyes:

dgludwig
April 13, 2007, 05:34 PM
iliysdad: I'm curious. Other than your own opinion (which I'm not saying is necessarily invalid), anecdotal experience and/or hearsay, do you have any independent, objective and empirical evidence to support your assertions that the Winchester 1300 has "prone to damage" receivers- prone to damage, how so?,and a "fragile" Speed Pump rotary bolt- fragile, how so?

If so, please advise. Otherwise, I'm going to shake out a dash of "When It Rains, It Pours" :D .

liliysdad
April 13, 2007, 07:13 PM
Personally, I have witnessed the attempted use of the 1200/1300 in LE use, and it fails every time. Many departments, including the one I work for, bought them because they were cheaper. After the uses and abuse of a police shotgun, I have witnessed receiver cracks, pure breakages, and lots of broken bolts.

I think the 1200/1300 is a damn fine bird gun, but it is simply outclassed by Remington, and to a lesser extent Mossberg.

wolverine350
April 13, 2007, 07:22 PM
I would have to go with the Mossberg, the military uses them in the 590 series and are a rugged inexpensive shotgun, easy to use and maintain, of course winchester is now out of business, and the 870 will cost ya a 100 dollars or more than the Mossberg. My experiances with the Mossberg and the 870 have been nothing short of excellent:D

Jimdoe
April 13, 2007, 08:17 PM
go with remington, you wont regret it. and for all you remington fans out there, check this out....

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/jul/remingtonmcs.html

dgludwig
April 14, 2007, 03:49 AM
ilisdad: After thirty years, I'm retired le, but while "on the job" I had the good fortune to work with many law enforcement agencies and my observations don't jive with yours at all. Which is why I asked if you were privy to independent evidence (i.e., documented departmental tests where the results are quantified and verifiable). If you were to rely soley on my "experience" you would believe that Ithaca 37s are known to drop loaded rounds from the gate when the slide is activated; that Remington 870s can (through operator error) be induced to jam where the "fix" is almost impossible to do while under fire and that the long discontinued S&W Model 3000 may have been the best police pump shotgun ever made. But past my opinions based on my experience and your opinions based on your experience, I'm looking for evidence as opposed to hyperbole.

It is my understanding that the military ran some extensive objective tests and eventually adopted an alloy-receivered Mossberg for service duty (I confess that I don't know just how factual my "understanding" is).

rgates
April 14, 2007, 06:22 AM
I've had the Moss. 500 for years. Fine gun. A friend carried one in Vietnam a lot. Saved his life many times, swears by them. His was the opinion that influenced my purchase. Wal-Mart has them for $250.00. But of course it's not the tactical version.

liliysdad
April 14, 2007, 10:21 AM
ilisdad: After thirty years, I'm retired le, but while "on the job" I had the good fortune to work with many law enforcement agencies and my observations don't jive with yours at all. Which is why I asked if you were privy to independent evidence (i.e., documented departmental tests where the results are quantified and verifiable). If you were to rely soley on my "experience" you would believe that Ithaca 37s are known to drop loaded rounds from the gate when the slide is activated; that Remington 870s can (through operator error) be induced to jam where the "fix" is almost impossible to do while under fire and that the long discontinued S&W Model 3000 may have been the best police pump shotgun ever made. But past my opinions based on my experience and your opinions based on your experience, I'm looking for evidence as opposed to hyperbole.


To be honest, all I have to go on is personal experience, and the fact that the 870 has outlasted all other platforms, and it obviously is not due to cost. This being said, I do agree that hard numbers would be fantastic, but you know as well as I do that they are hard to come by.

The closest I can come to an official study is the fact that the Oklahoma Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training will not allow any Winchester 1200/1300 in the basic or instructor firearms training. From what I can gather, the reasoning for this is twofold. 1) Due to the Winchester's design, it is impossible to place the shotgun on "cruiser safe", as the hammer must be cocked to place it on safe, 2) The folks who oversee the training have seen far more failures with this platform than the Mossberg or Remington, and a failure in training can set an entire academy back.

Again, this is basically heresay, but its all I have. I have seen, with my own eyes, more failures with the Winchester than the Mossberg and Remington. This is not to say the other platforms are flawless. The Remington is prone to operator failure, as you described, due to its shell lifter design. The Flex-tab was an improvement, but it does not aolve the issue, only training can do that. The Mossberg has a better lifter design, but the internals arent as sturdy as the Remington, and the plastic pieces found on the 500 and 590 are a liability IMO, having broken both safeties and triggerguards myself. The 590A1 cured a lot of these ailments, but at a heavier weight penalty. The Mossberg still suffers from a less smooth action, and the aluminum receiver, less of a liability that often mentioned due to its method of bolt lockup.

I do tend to agree with you on the S&W, as I have played with several of these. These guns took the benefits of the 870, and improved upon them, and when paired with Howa's fine manufacturing skills, made an incredible fighting shotgun.

I suppose when it comes down to it, all we have are personal experiences to rely on, as it is often hard to trust even structured studies because they are often skewed by tester and agency bias. Based on my experiences, only the Mossberg and Remington are viable fighting guns for me, and I own both. I feel the 870 is a functionally better weapon, but the Mossberg is no slouch.

It is my understanding that the military ran some extensive objective tests and eventually adopted an alloy-receivered Mossberg for service duty (I confess that I don't know just how factual my "understanding" is).

The Mossberg 590 was the only shotgun offered for testing. Remington chose not to submit an 870 for the trials, as they had nothing to gain. While it is true that the 590 passed the trials, and spawned the -A1 version based upon military suggestions for improvement, it did not "beat" any other shotgun, as it was a one-gun race.

Jseime
April 14, 2007, 06:14 PM
I think that no matter what gun you buy be it a Mossy 500, Winny 1300 or Rem 870 they are all really good guns.

There wouldnt be so many of each around if they werent good guns. I really like my mossberg 500 but you cant argue with the popularity of the 870 and the name on the 1300. The only guns you have to be really leery about are the cheapo imports.

The Remington and Mossberg are both made in the USA and I'm not sure about the 1300 but if it is an import its imported from someplace like Belgium where the workmanship and materials are good.

JKump
April 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
I have carried the Winchester 1300 on duty now for 9 years and the only problem I have had is the improved cylinder choke. My 1300 does not pattern 00 buck well at 25 yards. With that being said, I load mine with slugs and 1 buck. Mechanically, I have had 0 (ZERO) problems with it. Also I like the ergonomics of the Winchester. When carrying the shotgun and you are indexing the trigger guard your finger tip is up on the safety (with is in front of the trigger guard), it is easier than having to change grip to take it off safe.
I know this is my experience with the Winchester and I would recommend one for Home defense or duty. Good luck one which ever shotgun you pick up.:)

marlin
April 15, 2007, 09:16 AM
mossberg makes some cool shot guns for home defence

PTR 91
April 15, 2007, 09:17 AM
no mossberg, try remington marine magnum they have a black version now.

jkkimberfan
April 15, 2007, 01:38 PM
The best choice is the Mossberg 590A1, it holds 8 magnum 3" rounds. It has a much thicker/heavier barrel than the standard 590. And it has a metal safety and metal trigger mechanism, as opposed to the plastic parts in the standard 590. The safety on the 590A1 is in a better location than the Remington or Winchester. The 590A1 is the only military shotgun which the makers had enough confidence to submit to the 3,000 round military test, which it passed. Remington and Winchester were chicken.