Too smart or just too paranoid?

[Sycofrogg]

I'm torn here, and I wouldn't post about this if I felt strongly I was in the right. Now, I have to admit, I don't train. I read a lot, but I've been planning to attend force on force training and have yet to make that commitment. This may be why my confidence lacks little in my recent actions. I dunno, I leave it up to you guys.

Now, my fiancee works in a Hospital which is located in a pretty bad area. One of the worst in Philadelphia. Not to mention she works over night. It's a great children's hospital and the pay is great, so we deal with it. I drive her each evening. Over this weekend I had dropped her off and proceeded back towards the highway. In route I sparked up a cigar and lowered my window to enjoy our new fifty degree weather.

Stopping at a red light behind another car I see someone approaching. A middle aged man with no shirt. "Yo man, you got a match!?" He's about 16-18 feet away, and already my hand dropped the cigar into the ashtray and moved for my Glock 38.

"No, I don't smoke." I quickly replied as I slipped my hand beneath my vest. (When I drive I like my shoulder holster, I find it much more accessible beneath a loose light vest.)

The guy approaches further, he isn't walking fast but I know he's taking steps, "Come on man, I just need a light."

I felt myself removing the thumb button and the gun leaving the holster. It was kinda automatic for me. I didn't even second guess if I should pull it or not. Quickly I raise the gun and point it at him through the window, "Look man I don't have a light so don't come over here!" I remember myself shouting.

"Oh man! It don't have to be that way!" He stops and I notice the light changes and the cars start moving

"It is that way." Was the last thing I said before hitting the gas, I don't remember feeling scared or any kind of rush. Maybe it's different when the other guy has a gun to. I dunno.

Now, after thinking the situation over I am not sure if I did the right thing. I didn't look around, I didn't check if there was any kids, innocents or anything like that in the area. Did I rush to pulling my weapon? I don't think I had much time to do anything else. I didn't want this guy near my window. Maybe I could've just rolled my window up and hope he is just asking for a light? Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing him holding a cigarette or anything.

I dunno, that was the first time I actually had to pull my gun, or did I have to? Is there anything else I could of done? Simply driving away was a non option, the intersection I had to cross was four lanes of traffic. Any opinions or advice is greatly appreciated.

[marlboroman84]

You acted very prematurely in my opinion. From your description the man was not being threatening. He had no shirt on so a weapon tucked in his pants would be fairly noticeable. If his hands were out and noticeable and you didn't see a weapon you had no business pulling your firearm. In most states you committed a felony.

I've been in this scenario many times, recently just 2 nights ago. My general response is to roll up the window, and if the doors aren't already locked, lock them. Draw my firearm and lay it in my lap with a firm grip on it. If the situation changes drastically before I can drive away, I am still at a good advantage.

I would recommend further training. Good training not only builds shooting skills, but helps judgement in these situations. Next time it might be just a rough looking construction worker who just needs a light, because he left his in the truck. You point your gun at him and he gets your license plate as you drive off. next thing you know the cops are talking to you about brandishing and such.

Don't feel like I'm coming down to hard on you, you're being aware. You just went code red a few steps to early and that can cause you trouble.

[Sycofrogg]

I felt the same way after the fact. I think I just got over zealous when he asked for the light a second time. Something just clicked and I didn't want him taking another step.

[EJJR]

I think MM84 nailed it.

We all make mistakes, thats undeniable.

IME, if one learn's from them, they are no longer mistakes; they become lessons.

;)

[glock19xdsc]

+1 on premature. You would be hard pressed to demonstrate that there was a threat that would justify deadly force based on what you described.

BTW, If it's the same "great children's hospital" I'm thinking of...I know someone who works there.;)

[BoringAccountant]

Syco,

I, like you, have not had training and want to take classes, but always procrastinate.

In my opinion, you overreacted a bit, pulling a gun on someone who could have been just a bum. But on the reverse side, your instincts were telling you to react to a situation that could have been a potential carjacking, robbery, or any other variety of things. I think you were absolutely correct in following your instincts to make you feel secure, BUT I think training may help you hone your instincts and actions into a more suitable manner until the time to pull the weapon becomes the next option. Hopefully this will make you sign up for some type of tactics class.

I have had this situation happen before along the city streets around midnight. What I would recommend first is unbuckling your seatbelt, you never know when you may have to exit the vehicle fast, or if this guy starts taking shots (with a gun or throwing fists) at you through the open window and you can't get unbuckled fast enough. Overall, I think like EJJR said, the fact you are trying to learn from this mistake is making it a new lesson

[revjen45]

Locking the door is good idea. Rolling the window up doesn't keep bullets out of the car, but it keeps you from shooting out. If the window is down it adds some resistance to that of the door. You probably did act prematurely, but from his reaction, he may have had evil intent. Maybe draw and have the gun just below the window and ready to go, so he doesn't see anything but muzzle flash should it come to that. If you get a ration of tripe from the cops you can always use the "furtive movement" justification. They use it all the time for a lot more serious action than just drawing. He reached for his waistband and you couldn't just drive into cross traffic. At 16-18 ft he can be upon you within your reaction time. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you.

[stephen426]

Not to bash, but I also think that your drawing down on him was premature. Its good that you were situationally aware, but drawing and pointing the gun at him, before determining that he was actually a threat, is considered brandishing in most, if not all, states. He could have gotten your tag number and reported you as well. I'm not sure how much attention the police pay to these kind of people, but the homeless have rights and those that know them can creat a lot of problems.

Training is always a good thing as is situational awareness.

As a side note, I have drawn once on someone who approached my car rather agressively. I had my window down because I just finished picking up food from a drive through. He kind of ran up to my window and I had already drawn my gun. I did not point it at him, but had it in my hand and next to the steering wheel. The guy made up some excuse about being drunk and said something about not trying to cause any trouble. Yeah... whatever... :rolleyes: All I had to do was pivot the gun and I would be able to shoot. If you have the gun anywhere near the window, it invites a possible gun grab. The attacker could also push your gun arm down and force you to fire through the car door.

I'm glad nothing happened.

[rb4browns]

Why were you puffing on a stogie with the window down like you were on a drive in the country? IMHO the first thing you should have done is had the windows up, the doors locked and your guard up. Here in L.A. when I am cruising through less desireable parts of town my goal is to pass through as quickly as possible, preventing any possible situations before they start. If I have to stop at a red light and I'm not the first one at the light, I try to leave manuever room between me and the car in front.

I definitely would not be cruising windows down and drawing attention to myself by smoking a stogie. IMHO the best self defense is preventing a situation before one happens in every possible circumstance. Just mt two cents worth...

[Sycofrogg]

Excellent advice rb4browns. Putting the window down was a stupid move, and I will learn from it. I like the idea of "manuvering space" between cars. Something I will remember, belive me. The information on this forum is astounding :)

[P5 Guy]

Syco, I think I know the area in the City of Brotherly Love your friend works in, I don't think that was premature.

[Sycofrogg]

I was in Kenssington, under the L

[SeaMariner]

You're alive? If so, (and I'll assume so, since you did post it) then I wouldn't worry about it. Drawing too early is better than drawing late and if your instincts said draw, never ignore them. In hind sight, perhaps it was alittle early..

[JohnKSa]

"Oh man! It don't have to be that way!" He stops...That's not exactly the response I would expect from someone who has just unexpectedly had a gun pointed at him. Maybe something's lost in the telling, but that's a pretty calm reaction for someone who wasn't expecting any trouble...

[BillCA]

Sycofrogg,

The only thing I think you did wrong was point the pistole at him. Having the gun in your hand, low and out of sight would not be excessive or unncessary, IMO.

I'll also point out for the other tacticians who have posted, that no one has commented on a shirtless man walking in the street in 50-degree weather. Maybe it's from living in California too long, but when I spot someone shirtless in what I consder light-jacket weather, I start looking for signs he might be high (crack, meth, etc.).

The guy approaches further, he isn't walking fast but I know he's taking steps, "Come on man, I just need a light."

At this point, a firm NO! is all that's needed while you roll up the window(s). Thus, if he approaches and it looks like he's going to get ugly, you have a moment to react.

Re: Leaving space at stop lights, etc.
When stopping at lights, to leave some distance between you and the car ahead, remember this rule-of-thumb - don't let the other car's license plate drop below your hood line. If you drive a low sports car, like a Miata, you'll have to compensate.

When I'm driving in town my driver window is open between 1/2" to several inches for two reasons. Smoking and to hear sounds around me (sirens, yelling, horns, etc.) If suspicious folks come near, the windows go up.

Lastly ... when someone is approaching from the front, a quick mirror check (L/R/Inside) is warranted as is a glance to the rightside blind spot. When he's approaching look at his body posture & motions, his hands (anything in them?), odd bulges or hands/arms/elbows touching near the waist, and his face/eyes. If your instincts are jangling the alarm, trust them that something isn't right.

[Jedi-Jurist]

About 7 years ago I was in a bit west of the loop in Chicago where it's kind of a mixed area - not a lot of residents after dark and a few bums around - not totally bad, not good either. It was dark and I was just getting back to my parked car after a class and as I opened the door, an undesirable appeared on the sidewalk in front of the car (8-10 feet) and started to approach, asking for something (probably money, can't remember). I had been very steeped in martial arts at the time and felt confident in myself - not cocky, just confident. I looked right at him, told him in a loud and commanding voice to "STOP RIGHT THERE, DON'T MOVE ANY CLOSER." The guy looked startled and backed away. I got in the car and left rather quickly.

Point is, sometimes a very strong verbal response like that can stop the person who may not have the worst intentions in mind, and if the person doesn't stop after that, you can assume he has some bad intentions towards you. It's a good way to tell if you should then escalate your defenses (since we don't have concealed carry here, mine would have been hand-to-hand combat).

[chrisandclauida2]

bottom line is you dont allow anyone walk up to your car nor do you allow anyone to distract your attention from other parts of the environment.

normal reasonable people dont just walk up to a car for no real reason like this.

while he wouldn't be justified to use deadly force one is justified to threaten deadly force where physical force is otherwise justified. physical force is verbal commands and threats.

i thin he did fine. he didn't shoot ended what he and most would perceive as a threat and took the first opportunity to break contact and create distance.

well do even though you decision was high risk/gain. if he called your bluff you would have had to wait for an escalation into felony territory before even considering a reaction.

i for one will never be cornered in a car in a building in my house or anywhere. if i feel threatened i will do what is needed to break contact create distance and protect my self and OPTIONS.

[inkie]

Many years ago I worked in Philly near one of the bridges, I think it was Spring & Garden Streets.I was only on the job for a month when I went out to get lunch two guys asked me for a light. Told them I did not smoke and turned to cross the street they grabbed me and beat me up pretty good.Took my money, and took my rolex, as they were looking at the rolex they noticed I had my name engraved in the back. They started screaming at me and proceeded to kick me as I was on the sidewalk.They threw the watch on the ground and took off. Now I don't know if this "got a light" question in your situation was a threat and I probably would not have raised the weapon but its a lesson and take solace that you are safe.
Now maybe you guys on this thread can answer this question. I moved from NJ recently and I always thought you could not carry in Philly. Within the past week I read about people defending themselves in Philly with handguns. Can you carry in the city limits? And is my PA carry permit valid there?.Thanks

[Axion]

Many people have commented on the legal aspect of what you did so I won't touch on that any more but I'd like to add one other aspect.

A lot of homeless people are not quite right in the head and you pointing your weapon at them might anger them escalating the situation. Ie: a crazy hobo asking for a light could easily become an angry, crazy hobo who wants to hurt you. This is something to think about especially if it's an area you frequent. In general it's my policy to not give people any reason to want to hurt me (if I can help it).

In the end you didn't hurt anyone so it's just a matter of lessons learned. Stay safe and out of court.

[Sycofrogg]

Can you carry in the city limits? And is my PA carry permit valid there?.Thanks

Yes, Philly is still part of PA and still must follow state Law. If you live in Jersey you can get the Florida permit and legally carry in Philly. I don't have the PA permit and just carry with the Florida.



"Oh man! It don't have to be that way!" He stops...

That's not exactly the response I would expect from someone who has just unexpectedly had a gun pointed at him. Maybe something's lost in the telling, but that's a pretty calm reaction for someone who wasn't expecting any trouble...

You obviously don't live in a big city area, nor are aware of the HUGE crime rate sweeping Philadelphia. They just killed a 16 year old kid a mile from my house for fouling someone on a basketball court. I'm surprised he feared the gun at all.

[JDSnead]

I'd like to add something I was taught in the old Bell Telephone driver's training.
When you stop in traffic or at a light, always make sure you can see the bottoms of the BACK tires of the car in front of you. If you can, then you have left enough of a "space cushion" to eliminate most of the dangers of stopping in traffic.

While I'm sure that this was to lessen the liability of the company in traffic accidents, it also leaves you enough room to quickly escape if someone approaches you on foot.

It's funny how times change. When I was there, you could get fired for having an accident or speeding in a company vehicle. You were required to take and pass driver's training before ever being allowed to operate a company vehicle. They also required annual check rides, and you could be severely disclipined if anyone ever reported your vehicle being operated in an unsafe manner.

Nowadays, seems like most of the trucks have some "battle scars" somewhere on them, and I cannot count the number of times one has sped past me.

But I still remember to look for the bottom of the tires, so I know I have enough room for safety.
YMMV.
JS

[Blackwater OPS]

Why were you puffing on a stogie with the window down like you were on a drive in the country? IMHO the first thing you should have done is had the windows up, the doors locked and your guard up. Here in L.A. when I am cruising through less desireable parts of town my goal is to pass through as quickly as possible, preventing any possible situations before they start. If I have to stop at a red light and I'm not the first one at the light, I try to leave manuever room between me and the car in front.

Yeah, that's pretty much SOP for LA driving at night.

[Prophet]

I myself don't smoke but every once in a while I like to smoke a cigar. Because I don't smoke I don't carry a lighter nor matches. He probably asked you for a light because he saw you had a cigar figured you smoked and was just asking for a light. You my friend jumped the gun very prematurely you better watch yourself and don't be trigger happy.

This is how it could have played out putting me in this guys place:

I'm on the side of the street just bought me a cigar but had no way to light it see a dude smoking a cigar and i'm like hey he is smoking bet he has a light so I come over to ask for a light. You look at me and determine hey he is in the 20-25ish range dressed with semi-baggy pants a teeshirt and a hat kinda cocked to the side nope don't want to help him he might rob me. So I ask for the light you tell me no I don't smoke. That makes me a little mad because I just saw you put that huge cuban cigar down so I know your lieing. I ask again and put the words come on man I just need a light I know you were just smoking and take another step forward. You draw down on me for no reason, me being a ethical and responsible CCW holder myself see's a situation where i'm fearful of death or severe bodily injury I run behind your car and pull my weapon now I have plenty of places to run, hide, and shoot from on the other hand you are stuck in the drivers seat of your car. I'd say you might be visiting your wife in the hospital that night or leaving the scene in a bag. Moral of this story don't judge a book by its cover be helpful to other people it might save your life some day.

[stephen426]

This is how it could have played out putting me in this guys place:

I'm on the side of the street just bought me a cigar but had no way to light it see a dude smoking a cigar and i'm like hey he is smoking bet he has a light so I come over to ask for a light. You look at me and determine hey he is in the 20-25ish range dressed with semi-baggy pants a teeshirt and a hat kinda cocked to the side nope don't want to help him he might rob me. So I ask for the light you tell me no I don't smoke. That makes me a little mad because I just saw you put that huge cuban cigar down so I know your lieing. I ask again and put the words come on man I just need a light I know you were just smoking and take another step forward. You draw down on me for no reason, me being a ethical and responsible CCW holder myself see's a situation where i'm fearful of death or severe bodily injury I run behind your car and pull my weapon now I have plenty of places to run, hide, and shoot from on the other hand you are stuck in the drivers seat of your car. I'd say you might be visiting your wife in the hospital that night or leaving the scene in a bag. Moral of this story don't judge a book by its cover be helpful to other people it might save your life some day.

:rolleyes: Yeah... Okay. I tell you I don't have a light and to back the hell away. You still continue to advance. I have no place to escape to since I am stopped at a light. I draw and you respond by drawing and firing on me?

What responsible permit holder would be loitering in a bad area bumming lights off people? What obligation do I have to give you light even if I did have one? How would you react to someone approaching your vehicle (in a known bad part of town), despite you telling him to keep his distance? :rolleyes: Apparantly you haven't experienced what inkie experienced. I can tell you if you approach my vehicle despite me warning you to stay away, you will be looking down the barrel of a gun. If you think you can run to the back of my car and shoot me, you better be pretty damn quick. Even if you do hit me, you will most likely be spending a bit of time in jail.

Moral of the story, don't approach people's cars, homes, or persons if you have been told to stay away unless you are looking for trouble.

[Prophet]

To Stephen:
Y would I spend time in jail I simply asked for a light for my cigar and he pulled a gun on me I would be justified in shooting him right there. Plus no one said anything about loitering he said there was a guy. You should be kind to everyone until that person gives you a reason not to it was just simply a guy needing a light he didn't have a shirt on so there is nowhere to hide a weapon really what threat did he pose? Its just that some of you CCW holders think its ok to pull a gun on everyone if they act the least bit odd and before you should ever pull your weapon you should look at the consequences of shooting this man over asking for a light and acting a little weird or if it turns physical whip the guys ass. that’s what a lot of you people don't understand just because you have a gun on your side or under your arm doesn't mean you are the law of the land I'd take a ass whipping over shooting someone any day of the week. Its you kind of people that give CCW holders and gun owners for that matter a bad name. You make us look like blood thirsty gun holders that will draw down on someone for the least little thing.

To Original Poster:
Also the OP doesn't really add up, The man was wearing no shirt yet it was 50 degrees outside, when you drew on him he said oh it don't have to be like that,(I don't know of anyone that would act like that if a gun was pointed at them by a stranger) I think your trying to add in a few things to help it look like you had a plausible reason for pulling out your weapon.

I was coming home from taking my wife to work as I do every evening because its such bad part of town. When a guy with no shirt on comes toward me at a red light, so I throw my cigar down in the ashtray readying myself for the gun battle that was surely to pursue I reached for my GLOCK38 feeling the thumb snap release I knew it was time to draw down on the bad guy. Without hesitation I centered my sights on the BG’s vital organs. He looks at me and says “Oh man come on It don’t have to be that way” just then the light turns green I tell the BG as I drive away “ Oh yea its that way”. Come on you sound like your righting a script for a movie.

[markj]

Now, after thinking the situation over I am not sure if I did the right thing.

You pointed a loaded weapon on a non threat, if he called a cop and told them you did so, you would be in some trouble as that is against the law. Did they explain this in the CCW class? They pound it in here.

[stephen426]

To Stephen:
Y would I spend time in jail I simply asked for a light for my cigar and he pulled a gun on me I would be justified in shooting him right there. Plus no one said anything about loitering he said there was a guy. You should be kind to everyone until that person gives you a reason not to it was just simply a guy needing a light he didn't have a shirt on so there is nowhere to hide a weapon really what threat did he pose? Its just that some of you CCW holders think its ok to pull a gun on everyone if they act the least bit odd and before you should ever pull your weapon you should look at the consequences of shooting this man over asking for a light and acting a little weird or if it turns physical whip the guys ass. that’s what a lot of you people don't understand just because you have a gun on your side or under your arm doesn't mean you are the law of the land I'd take a ass whipping over shooting someone any day of the week. Its you kind of people that give CCW holders and gun owners for that matter a bad name. You make us look like blood thirsty gun holders that will draw down on someone for the least little thing.

Lets take this point by point with the sections I bolded...

1. The guy simply needed a light and had no place to conceal a weapon since he was shirtless.

Do you think it is possible to tuck a gun in your waist band behind your back or is that too much for you to phathom? If I walked right up to you and did not show you my back, would you know if I was armed? The guy is standing around shirtless in 50 degree weather. There is a good possibility that the guy is not your everyday "normal person" meaning that there is a good chance he has mental issues (very common among homeless people). For most people bumming a light, if someone tells you "no", you do not keep approaching them. You might ask again, but you do not walk right up to them (at least if you don't want to get shot).

2. You'd rather take an "ass-whipping instead of shooting someone any day of the week".

While I can understand your respect for life, that ass-whipping may be life threatening. One thing I learned is to never under-estimate your opponent. So lets say that his intention is not just to whip your ass but to car jack you as well. Maybe you would prefer to give up your car instead of shooting someone. Maybe he wants to kill you or rape you (if you were a woman). Where do you draw the line? How and when do you know what his intentions are? Do you wait until he walks up and slits your throat before reaching for a weapon? Like I said, I would have the gun in my hand so he could see it (and so I would be able to use it immediately if needed) but I would not have it pointed at him yet.

3. "Its you kind of people that give CCW holders and gun owners for that matter a bad name"

If that is the case, then so be it. I hardly believe that most gun owners would allow themselves to be violated and not defend themselves. Like I said, I would warn the person to back off and I would draw, but not point the gun at the person. I am not going to under-estimate a potential threat and get killed as a result of it. The guy may have just wanted a light, but then again, maybe he wanted to car jack the original poster and possibly kill him. I hope you never end up in a situation where you wish you had reacted sooner, but I base my actions on my well being. I will never go looking for trouble and I will try to avoid trouble if at all possible. Someone approaching my vehicle in a bad area, despite being warned to stay away will find out that I am armed. Depending on how quickly and/or agressively they approach, they might be looking down the business end of it instead of the profile of it.

[BillCA]

Prophet,

First of all, punctuation marks are our friends.

Next, I think some of your comments are over-the-top.
Certainly, most of us agree that the OP was premature in this situation. But many of us may have drawn the gun and kept it below the shirtless man's line of sight (in our laps for instance). There is no illegality involved in that case, just precautionary preparation.

+1 on Stephen's comment that because you can't see a weapon, does not mean he doesn't have one. Just like those of us who are legally carrying, concealed means "hidden from sight". I can think of at least three ways a shirtless man could have a firearm concealed on him.

Personally, I do not want a BG giving me an "ass whipping" of any sort. His first strike may knock you cold leaving you helpless to whatever he does. It could shatter a bone, causing great nauseating pain that prevents you from acting effectively to defend yourself. Once it starts, you have lost control of the situation and are entirely at his mercy (if he has any). BG's do NOT stop using force when their victims are compliant (witness the repeated hits to a 101 year old woman recently in Queens). You may wish to risk it, but I don't think I will.

It's well known that a lot of criminals use a verbal ploy to check the reaction of their potential victims. Asking for a light, asking for spare change or the time of day. Then the look to see how distracted the citizen becomes if they oblige and it gives them a reason to get closer in some cases. The OP was correct in moving from condition Yellow to Orange in this case.

[kickshot85]

I think Stephen426 pretty much summed it up for me. Don't take chances with your life, always be prepared. You never know when the seemingly innocent will escalate into a crime scene. There have been two distinct occassions in my life where I have watched something that seemed perfectly normal turn into something out of a Hollywood gunfight. On one of these occassions everything ended up rather peacefully, the other not-so-much. I know that there are rules against brandishing your weapon and I believe that, for the most part, they serve a due purpose in society. The fact of the matter is that this is your life. Pointing the gun at the half-naked man in fifty degree weather may not have been appropriate, but I was not in your shoes, you most probably acted in the most suiting way. You're still alive, congratulations. And to address the posts about you having your window down and not actively trying to avoid the situation, this is my day, my world, my life. I, and all of you, have just as much right as anyone else to enjoy what little of life there is left to enjoy. I will not succumb to fear and neither should any of you gentleman and ladies. Always keep your head up and ears open but never let the fear of "what if" stop you from living. It should be our purpose to not be victims, not another statistic. I hope if ever faced with a life threatening situation again, God forbid, I can cull it as quickly and effectively as you have done.

[Sycofrogg]

Come on you sound like your righting a script for a movie.

Maybe it does Prophet, does that really matter to me? No. I added nothing. The man was approaching my window and I felt threatened. Have you ever been on crack Prophet? Meth? High at all? How would you know how someone seriously intoxicated would react to a firearm being pointed at them? Was he? I don't know nor cared to find out.

Three murders tonight, one right around the corner from where the incident happened. You can look it up on any Philadelphia newspaper. I'm not the one creating this attitude. Now you wanna risk allowing a stranger approach your car? Go for it.

Now, this isn't saying what I did was entirely correct. I agree rolling my windows up and readying my pistol would have been better. I reacted quickly, I did not want this guy near my window, my weapon was the quickest, and most efficient way to keep that from happening.

[Prophet]

To Bill:

LOL on the punctuation marks when I get carried away typing I just completely forget about them.

Otherwise you brought some good points and I guess I just wasn't looking at this from his point of view.

To Everyone: Sorry for the negative remarks about the OP but you did jump the gun a little. I guess getting your weapon ready but out of sight of the potential threat is a good idea if indeed in a bad area.

To Syco: No I’ve never been high on those drugs, smoked a lil when I was younger but none of those, So I guess I wouldn’t know how someone would react with a gun pointed at them.

To Stephen: SORRY!!!

[stephen426]

Prophet,

Nothing to apoligize about. We on the TFL tend to run more on the paranoid and "don't tread on me" side, but we have made a conscious decision to take our personal safety into our own hands. We are not vigilantes and most of us pray we never have to defend ourselves, but we also understand and accept the fact that there are "real predators" out there who don't share your sanctity for life. We also realize that the police are not capable of protecting us at all times, even if they wanted to. For that reason, we have taken it upon ourselves to protect ourselves and our loved ones, with lethal force if need be, from those who have no respect for our lives, much less their own.

Please do not let your guard down thinking the thug on the corner just wants your wallet so he can feed his family. In my opinion, and I'm sure in the opinion of many on this forum, society has grown progressively worse and there are some real blood thirsty animals out there. MS-13, the gang that started in El Salvador, has gone main stream in America and they are popping up in cities all over the U.S.. According to a police officer friend of mine, their initiation requires them to murder someone. That way, the gang can rat them out (for a crime that may bring the death penalty) if that person should ever betray them. More likely than not, that person will be killed instead of ratted out. This is a ruthless gang that is engaged in drug trafficking, prostitution, murder, and all kinds of good stuff.

Failure to properly assess a potential threat may mean your life and even your family's life. I'm not saying you should draw down every suspicious person, but don't be afraid to be forceful and show that you will not a helpless victim. Issue strong commands and warnings such as "Back Off! I don't want any trouble." Avoid the situation if at all possible and even back away (if possible to do so safely) to remove yourself from the threat. If the threat persists, be prepared to act decisively since the threat will most not give you a chance. Don't let some scumbag take what you work hard for and threaten your (and your family's) well being. Fight back and Win!:D

I hope this opens your eyes a little as to how we see the world. Be safe! :D

[Prophet]

Yea it does open my eyes. I thought the US had gotten better that there wasn't anymore huge gang wars or gang rivalry. I didn't know that this still goes on I thought it was a late 80's early 90's trend that passed some time ago. I will be more reluctant to help someone that looks like a suspicious character. Thanks

[revjen45]

I once engaged in a discussion with a man who said he would prefer any level of ass whipping to shooting someone. Impact trauma to the head is cumulative, and having been knocked unconcious for 8-10 minutes from being struck by the mirror of a truck driving without lights while walking across a dark street, and I believe it permanently affected my cognitive abilities. I can't afford any more blows to the head. A few years back a man in this area was killed by one punch to the head and the resultant impact damage when his head hit the sidewalk. While I was in high school I saw a good friend smacked hard through an open car window, knocking him momentarily senseless. I would without hesitation shoot to avoid being struck in the head. The half-naked bum should have taken the hint when the request for a light was declined. You may have pointed the gun too soon (like I said, keep it below the bottom of the window until showtime) but he may indeed have had any kind of weapon unseen to you. According to the law an assailant is resonsible for the state of the victim he chooses. If a Jehovah's Witness dies as a result of refusing a blood transfusion, or an oldie has a heart attack without being physically assailed the assailant is responsible. If some low life doesn't take the hint at a snarled "no" then he is responsible for any harm that befalls him.

[Mike P. Wagner]

If some low life doesn't take the hint at a snarled "no" then he is responsible for any harm that befalls him.

CCW must be different in Washington - they don't teach it that way here. :)

Mike

[Mike P. Wagner]

Back to the original story - if the man had gotten your license tag, you almost certainly would have lost your right to possess firearms! You really need to quite making excuses and take some training.

Mike

[Sycofrogg]

That I will Mike.

[Hardtarget]

How many times have I read "bad stuff happens fast" ? I think your reaction was right. When the BG is too close...you can't stop the attack.

To give example of how fast it happens...a man I know (relative of my daughter in law) was at a fast food place. Early on a Sunday A.M. He normally went there for cinnamon rolls for the family. A guy he never even saw reached in and stabbed him in the neck! Then the BG is saying "its OK man..its cool". Employ saw everything, locked the doors, BG is trying to get in, the police have been called. BG walks around for a minuet then runs off...never to be found. Victim survived and is O.K....just a LOT more careful now!

So...I don't like to be walked up on either and I try to watch when stopped at traficlights ect.

Mark.

[MEDDAC19]

Yes, Philly is still part of PA and still must follow state Law. If you live in Jersey you can get the Florida permit and legally carry in Philly. I don't have the PA permit and just carry with the Florida.

Sycofrogg:

Although Philly is part of PA, you can't carry concealed within the city limits. Your license to carry only allows you to open carry within the city limits and concealed most elsewhere in the state.

[Sycofrogg]

Although Philly is part of PA, you can't carry concealed within the city limits. Your license to carry only allows you to open carry within the city limits and concealed most elsewhere in the state.

Thats entirely wrong, there are Philadelphia County carry permits, they take about two weeks to get. Two years ago I was stopped by a police officer on my way to the gun range. I informed her I was armed and had a permit. She looked at the Florida permit, called something in then quickly returned it.

[revjen45]

"CCW must be different in Washington - they don't teach it that way here."

Actually, I have been aware of some SD shootings that amazed me that the shooter occurred no legal consequences. In WA State if you plead SD and are found not guilty the state pays your defense expenses. It's a great idea because it keeps the persecuting shysters from going after the victim just to create busy work for the legal industry. I don't go around looking to shoot bums who hit me up for "gas money." On the other hand, if truly threatened I will produce a 9mm surprise for the perp.

[inkie]

I posted this question way back and the answers were vague so I went out on my own to get some answers. Not all the facts are in but here is the most important. Scofrogg is right! There is reciprocity and he can ccw with a permit from another state. As far as Pa. resident permit holders are concerned, regardless of rumors to the contrary. Permits issued by any county must be honored by all other counties including Philly. So Pa. ccw holders can ccw in Philly. You can open carry in Pa. but in "cities of the first class" only Philly is listed you need a license to open carry. Here is the kicker. The police will make your life tough if you open carry in Philly or elsewhere its not a good idea unless its at a gun club ,range, forest etc. I will post more as I get this info.

[gvf]

I think the problem for any of us is to ferret out from a situation what IS happening from what COULD happen. If someone has POSSIBLY threatening behavior that COULD be a threat, it's not good enough for the DA, and maybe that's good in the long run. If there IS a lethal threat then it's different. Very hard to do.

I worked volunteer with the homeless in NYC. Innumerable times, while handing out food, some would exhibit behavior that other people, in a street situation with them, could have mistaken. They came too close to your person too quickly, sometimes got quickly angry when we were out of food, but angry at the world, not really directed at you etc. Many were mentally unstable and all were hungry. I was always with people in the organization, I knew the population well, and there had never been a history of any violence with any of these people towards volunteers.I knew what to say and not say to diffuse any problems quickly. Just in case, I carried a Surefire light of blinding power and pepper-spray. Also, young girls would sometimes volunteer, so I had the light and spray not just for me but in case I ever had to protect them. In other words, while confident and comfortable I was not stupid and I always remained watchful. Never had to think of using either defense-device but they were there. So, I was never the least afraid, I liked them all, the homeless, and knew some from repeated stops to feed them. But if you didn't know any of this, change the situation slightly and you may have pulled a gun on one of them or shot, by writing a script of what was going to happen, as opposed to what was actually happening.

Very hard and quick determination in these SD situations, scary really the responsibiltiy. Hope it never happens to me.

[DeathRodent]

I believe everything was correct except pointing and showing him the gun - don't let him see it but be prepared in case he does something.

In LA (the city) the behaivor of the shirtless guy is just what a potential mugger would do - problem is it is also what a homeless guy that would not hurt you would do.

You have to keep them a bay because you don't know if its safe and besides you don't want the homeless begging or bothering you - if you let them too close they will grab the window or doorknob and hold on while begging or blathering about total nonsense because they are mentally impaired, bored, whatever.

It is best not to engage them becasue then they get relentless about the give me a buck or whatever - a very firm almost angry loud NO works best for me. Pretend you are seeing a dog peeing on your furnature and use that voice.

[Sycofrogg]

I posted this question way back and the answers were vague so I went out on my own to get some answers. Not all the facts are in but here is the most important. Scofrogg is right! There is reciprocity and he can ccw with a permit from another state. As far as Pa. resident permit holders are concerned, regardless of rumors to the contrary. Permits issued by any county must be honored by all other counties including Philly. So Pa. ccw holders can ccw in Philly. You can open carry in Pa. but in "cities of the first class" only Philly is listed you need a license to open carry. Here is the kicker. The police will make your life tough if you open carry in Philly or elsewhere its not a good idea unless its at a gun club ,range, forest etc. I will post more as I get this info.

Thanks Inkie! I hadn't known open carry was allowed in Pa! Let alone Philadelphia. Though I wouldn't advertise.

General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

I know that right there says it. No county can go against the commonwealth of Pa.

[BanginMusket]

I think you have to be fully responsible in owning that weapon. You can just hurt anyone if you do not take precautions.


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[Mike P. Wagner]

If someone has POSSIBLY threatening behavior that COULD be a threat, it's not good enough for the DA, and maybe that's good in the long run.

Good post.

Maybe it's also the case that a handgun is not a magic weapon that protects against everything bad that can happen to us. Maybe it's just one tool, and it's got some limitations.

Having a gun may not prevent you from being a victim of crime - and it may be a particularly limited tool out in public. If you start pulling weapon everytime something could be a threat, you go to jail. In your house (at least in NC), you have lot more leeway.

Mike

[mvpel]

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=193

If the intent is robbery or rape the dialogue is often disarming or incidental: 'Have you got a light, please?' or 'can you give me directions to Smith Street please, I'm a little lost?' The attacker is looking to switch the victim off before attack.

...the dialogue is employed to gain and distract attention before attack.

'There was this geezer and his missus, outside a telephone box. Their car had the bonnet up, the woman went in to the 'phone box. We walked up to the 'phone box and pretended to queue for the phone. The geezer looked like he had money, good clothes, smart car. I gave J [his accomplice] the signal by winking at him; I then asked the geezer the time and we both pulled out our knives. When he looked up we told him to hand over his wallet.'

'We walk up to them and ask the time - this distracts them. If they look like they know what we're gonna do, or if they look a bit tough or answer with a rough voice then we just walk off.'

The exploratory approach will often be coupled with disarming dialogue, (the four 'D's) used to prime the victim for attack. It is also used as a secondary awareness assessment - the attacker wants to see if you are switched on and wants to make sure he is safe before he attacks.

...Other attackers will keep their hands on full display, extracting a weapon from its hiding place as they approach, or immediately after asking an engaging question.

My friend was killed in just such a way. His attacker approached with his right palm turned into his right thigh so that his knife was hidden. He got very close to my friend and asked a question to distract him, then plunged the hidden knife into his heart. That single stab wound killed him.

[BillCA]

Mvpel - An excellent reference posting.

We pretty much seem to agree that the display of the gun in the OP was premature and that lowering the gun and keeping it ready "just in case" would have been a better alternative.

I don't recall this being discussed (and I'm too tired to review all posts) but one's actions are often judged against what the legal system calls "a reasonable man" standard.

This standard says, a reasonable man, with your knowledge and experience, would have taken similar actions in the same situation.

The key element here is with your knowledge and experience.

For instance, you're Mr. Joe Average and you've never been involved with street thugs, gangs or read posts on TFL. ;) So it's 50ish degree weather and a shirtless man approaches your car in the street asking for a light. You do what the original poster did, but the shirtless man flags down a cop and reports you. When interviewed by the cops how do you articulate that you felt you were in danger of attack?

More to the point, how would your lawyer try to convince a court or jury? Some will say a shirtless man can't be hiding a gun (false). Others will say you're paranoid for mistaking an "innocent request" for a light as a threat to your safety.

But, now that you've read the article linked in mvpel's post (and maybe similar articles by other authors) you can expand and expound on the potential dangers. (Indeed, if the original poster reads the article it might be interesting to see if he recognizes any pre-cursor signs that he didn't recognize before, but I digress.) If you've read one or more published articles that describe the pre-attack cues, clues & signals, then during that police interview your reaction has a basis and is seen as more reasonable;

Man approaches and asks "do you have a light?" which is a classic distraction technique used by criminals to assess the alertness of victims.
He's shirtless on a cool night - some drugs cause users to feel hot and they shed clothing and move outdoors to "cool down".
One or both hands not visible or kept close to the body, potentially concealing a weapon.
Eyes seemed wide, fixed and staring - possibly fixing on the target of an attack.
His manner seemed nervous, jumpy, twitchy or excited - possibly due to adrenaline pumping him up just before an attack.
Verbal responses did not dissuade his approach and he tried again.


The four 'D's as they might have applied in this case:
Dialogue ("Yo man, you got a match!?") (you: "No, I don't smoke.")
Deception ("Come on man, I just need a light.") (You: I don't have a light.)
Distraction ("You got a lighter in the dash?') (You: glance down)
Destruction (attack)

Well officers, I thought he might have been on drugs running around half naked like that on a cool night, then he approached asking for a light. I'm not stupid. I know that offering him one means he can get close enough to attack me and thugs often use that excuse. And who legitimately walks into traffic to ask for a light? But he also seemed nervous and jumpy, like on drugs or adrenaline might do just before an attack. When he wouldn't take no for an answer and kept coming, all of these things added up to the conclusion he was likely going to attack me for money or the car.

As the article points out, if you say "No" right away, you're a harder target than someone in condition white. If, in response to the "deception" query, you say "No, I can't help you." and he engages the "distraction" query, that may be the time to make sure your weapon is in hand. When you respond "I took it out. Go'wan and get outta here." he should realize you're not an easy target. Further approach, in my view, would be reason to show him just how perfectly round the muzzle of a Glock can be.

It's late and I hope this ramble makes sense. :o

[C Philip]

Think about carrying some intermediate self defense tool like pepper spray in addition to your pistol. In this situation I think that could have worked well; he comes closer after you tell him to stop, you spray him and thus buy time to drive away. Perhaps just holding up the spray would ward him off, and then you could have no risk of being charged with brandishing you pistol. I don't think you can be charged with brandishing or anything for holding up a pepper spray. (Can you?)

[Beckerich]

you were nervous but i wud be too, i think if u had your hand on the gun and said " i have a gun" he would have backed off, a bit dangerous to go pointing it that soon.

[stephen426]

Think about carrying some intermediate self defense tool like pepper spray in addition to your pistol. In this situation I think that could have worked well; he comes closer after you tell him to stop, you spray him and thus buy time to drive away. Perhaps just holding up the spray would ward him off, and then you could have no risk of being charged with brandishing you pistol. I don't think you can be charged with brandishing or anything for holding up a pepper spray. (Can you?)

This is a great idea... provided that the bad guy is not armed. Pepper spray may impair his vision, but he will still be able to shoot in your general direction and possible hit you. I do like having non-lethal options, but be sure you are able to match or surpass the threat level that your opponent has presented.

I am seriously considering buying a taser for the wife since I can't convince her to carry a gun. Since tasers are "designed to be" non-lethal, she would have much less hesistation to zap someone that was acting in a threatening manner towards her. She fears that a gun can be taken away from her and used against her, which is a valid concern.

[threegun]

Anytime a stranger approaches my car my gun is out and ready however hidden from the view of all including the stranger. If he walks up to my car and sees the gun oh well (it won't be pointing at him if not a serious threat yet). If you point early might be charged......If you wait to long might die allowing yourself to get behind in the reactionary curve. I say be in the middle gun drawn and ready but still hidden.

[Beckerich]

or just tell him you have a gun, judging by your voice he would be able to tell you're serious if he keeps coming you know he wants trouble.

[stephen426]

I hate to say it, but some of these guys are "not all there" and they are not scared by guns. In fact, some of these guys may see it as a challenge (like I said, some of them are not all there) These guys would pose as bums washing your windshield. When you roll down your window to either tell them no or give them some money, thats when they attack. This was especially bad around the downtown area.

I carried between my seat and the center console where it was only visible if you were close enough to the window. One guy backed off and asked if I was a cop. Another guy challenged me and said "what are you going to do? Shoot me?" It is a proven fact that a fair percentage of homeless have some mental health issues. DO NOT ASSUME THEY WILL REACT RATIONALLY!!!

Some good practices are...
1. Always be aware of your surroundings, especially in areas known for high crime rates. If possible, avoid these areas.

2. Leave enough room between you and the car infront of you so that you have room to manuever. If there are no cars and someone is approaching, you might consider running the light. Few officers would ticket even if they saw you. Of course you need to be very careful and you should only do it as a last resort.

3. Leave your windows rolled up. Consider adding smash proof tints on your car (made by 3M). I did this for my previous car.

4. Honk your horn to attract attention if you are boxed in. Criminals hate having lots of witnesses and may call off an attack if there is too much unwanted attention.

5. Practice drawing from where you keep your gun in the car (or from where you carry on your person). Drawing from an SOB holster is harder than you think when you are sitting down and strapped in. Be sure to unload the gun before you do this PLEASE!

6. Consider less than lethal options such as pepper spray and tasers. These guys may just be homeless guys trying to bum some change. Being poor and bumming change is not a crime in any city I know of.

If you guys have any other suggestions, feel free to add them. I hope this helps! :D

[nbk2000]

You pull up to a light, with a car in front and back of you.

Dude walks up with no shirt on, hands in plain sight, asking for a light, cigarette in hand.

You pass him through the slightly rolled down window a pack of matches or he sticks the cigarette through and you light it with the car lighter.

He drops (matches/cigarette) and bends over to pick it up.

He comes back up with a pistol from an ankle holster. BANG!

Or, he picks up the piece of rebar that he previously laid down on the road at the centerline divider, right about where your car is stopped for the light, and smashes the window to drag you out.

You didn't notice the 'road debris' because you weren't going to drive over it, now did you?

A small sprayer of pepper GEL, not spray or foam, would be good for use from inside of the car, since there'd be virtually no effect to you, but that's only if they're being an annoyance.

If you decided to pull and have it in hand, it might be good to check a Chilton manual or such, so you know where the body work and mechanicals are located in the car door, so you can shoot through the parts of the door with nothing but sheet-metal and air between the bullet and the thug. :)

Though if you feel like shooting, it'd be better to roll down the window so you don't have to shoot through the door or blow out the window.

Depending on your gun, you may need to hold it a certain way to keep all the shell casings inside the car.

Oh, and wearing gloves whenever you load the gun to keep your fingerprints off the casings is helpful too.

[Mike P. Wagner]

Though if you feel like shooting, it'd be better to roll down the window so you don't have to shoot through the door or blow out the window.

I would think that this would make for a challenging self-defense argument, unless the person outside the window did have gun.

Oh, and wearing gloves whenever you load the gun to keep your fingerprints off the casings is helpful too.

Why?

Mike

[Capt Charlie]

Depending on your gun, you may need to hold it a certain way to keep all the shell casings inside the car.

Oh, and wearing gloves whenever you load the gun to keep your fingerprints off the casings is helpful too.

Agree with Mike. Why in the world would you do that if the shooting was justified, or are you contemplating premeditated murder?

In any case, TFL is not a school for teaching how to tamper with evidence.

Closed.