What do police have that civilians don't?

[V4Vendetta]

I've heard a lot of people say things like, "If your house is burglarized, don't clear the house yourself. Let the police do it."

Here's my question. What makes police so much better than we civilians are:confused: ? Is it because they have guns & bullet-resistant vests? We can get those ourselves in certain states. Is it their training? If yes, where can we get it?

I don't mean any offense I was just curious. It seems to me that a lot of people think that real cops are just like John Preston* & us civillians are Barney Fifes:confused: .


*If you don't know who that is, go buy a copy of "Equilibrium" which is a favorite of TFL's Lawdog.

[kkb]

I'd say A) Training, B) Backup/help, C) I don't get paid to look for trouble.

[Tbag]

Oh, I thought it was a badge

[Doug.38PR]

Well, I think "experts" get a little Barny Fife with that "let the police handle it" attitude. He is the one always saying (with his stuck up lip) "well sir, it takes a trained professional like me to know how to do _________"

You can do it yourself, but the police know of places where hoods can hide that you would never dream of (under beds, dirty clothes hampers, under the kitchen or bathroom cabinets, behind clothes in the closet) they can and do hide like little children. Clearing the room is not just peering into the room with gun ready and then moving on to the next.

Also, there may be more than one or two thugs in there. Police would have them outnumbered.

[BoringAccountant]

My only prob with this is that if you are coming home to a burglarized home and you are not sure if the bg is still in there, do you have a gun on you or would you go to the place you keep them in the house? If you did the latter and the bg had already taken them and/or finds you looking for them, you could have escalated the situation. Thats a situation I think should be left up to the LEO's not a civi.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. Clearing is dangerous for anyone. For the untrained, it is especially so.
2. The thrust of the argument is to avoid danger to yourself and let them do it.
3. If you do it yourself, as one person, you could get killed or hurt
4. Most of us don't want to be killed or hurt
5. If you want to take the risk to be killed or hurt - go ahead - that's the argument.

[Doug.38PR]

This is one reason I have a CHL. I always have a gun with me when I get home. If I ever find the house unlocked at night (even if I think I MIGHT have left the door unlocked) I go in and check with gun drawn.

[Crosshair]

Select-weapons, flashbangs, CS gernades, etc.

[ConcealCarryNY]

K-9 units

[pax]

Three reasons to call the cops and let them handle it:

1) Cops have backup. Even a very well-trained and experienced street cop is not going to set foot in that house unless backup is present. Every smart person knows that the ensconced defender has all the advantages and that it takes two or more people to even the odds enough for a search to be worth the risk. If a well-trained, highly experienced cop won't take the risk of clearing your house all by himself without backup, why should you?

2) Cops have different rules of engagement, with more tools and more options at their disposal. I realize a lot of folks are bloodthirsty and want all criminals killed, but by my personal lights, it's wrong to kill someone unnecessarily, especially when just a little patience gets guys on the scene who might be able to come up with a less bloody solution than you can.

3) If a cop does have to kill your intruder for you, he's got a whole department full of people ready to go to bat for him in the courtroom. It's simply a lot easier to let the deep pockets of your local police department pay the legal bills than it is to fight an intruder yourself and then pay the legal bill. I am not saying that you should worry about this when your life is in immediate danger -- if your life is in immediate danger, you do what you have to do and let the devil take the hindmost. But as long as there is enough time to look for another solution, it's certainly worth taking the legal bills into account.

pax

[Capt Charlie]

It seems to me that a lot of people think that real cops are just like John Preston* & us civillians are Barney Fifes .
Not so, V. There are many non-LEO's that have as much training as LEO's, if not more, and we as LEO's also have our share of Barney Fifes :D .

What do we have that most non-LEO's don't? Experience. Our rookies go through months of FTO training before they go solo. During the FTO programs, rookies are exposed to the real thing, not simulations. The adrenalin flow is real, the risks are real.

By the time they've completed the program, they've experienced house clearings and real bad guys, over and over. Also of importance is the fact that they've become part of a team where each member knows what the others are going to do under pressure.

I hate to use the term "routine", but in a way, that's what it becomes. Most home owners will never have to clear their house, and I think I'm safe in saying that few, if any, will do it repeatedly.

Think of it this way; if you were going into combat, would you want the members of your squad to be fresh out of boot, or combat seasoned? ;)

[Eghad]

Why would you want to go hunting for someone in your house in the dark? If I am in a safe location and armed and have notified the police and they are on the way which probably isnt going to be long since I live in a small town. Why would I want to give up my concealment advantage?

[Edward429451]

I wouldn't want to go searching for a BG in my house. But to refrain from going in and go with the 'textbook' call the LEO's...would be making myself uh, too dependant on others and leads down the wrong road of mindset (for ME).

I cleared my own house before when I came home to an unlocked door. It was kind of tense but turned out alright. My son had stopped by when we were gone and didn't pull the door shut behind him when he left.

It helps for me that I had a stint as a security guard and attended the OPOTC training. The training didn't amount to much but being a sec guard on the graveyard shift helped. To try and stay awake I used to do my rounds in a building clearing fashion. I read a lot and taught myself to 'slice the pie' and peek hi/lo etc. If you do it for enough hours, you do get better and figure some stuff out on your own. I'm not slamming formal training, I'm just a poor man.:D

If I came home to a forced entry and it seemed highly probable that someone was still inside, I prolly would call he who has backup. But why bug em if they prolly are not really needed? (And may not even show up for a couple hours if at all).

[lockedcj7]

One point that Capt Charlie makes deserves repeating. The media, and general public to some extent, often assume that LEOs are automatically firearms experts. I have seen many who are "gun-nuts" like we are and I have seen many who train religiously because they think it's foolish not to.

Unfortunately, there are also many who never had any interest in guns, only shoot as much as they have to and have never handled anything other than what they encounter on the job. Those are they guys who end up shooting themselves in the foot (or worse).

As for the question at hand...

Ed makes some valid points. If I came home and found a light on that I didn't remember turning on, (it happened once) I would probably clear the house myself if there was nothing else out of place. I live in the country and it would take a LEO at least twenty minutes to get out here. Meanwhile, they might actually have a serious call.

If the door was kicked in, the house ransacked, strange vehicle parked around back, etc. I would observe from a safe distance with cover and concealment to my advantage and call the professionals for all the reasons that have been posted.

[Samurai]

Carte blanche enforcement of a duty not to interfere with a police investigation. Simply put, cops have the ability to make everyone in the house get down on the ground and put on handcuffs, whether they are armed or not, coupled with the right to beat them into submission if they refuse to comply. Civillians can only use force if they feel like they might be immediately harmed in some way...

Was this a serious question??? Something about this seems... obvious.

[trooper3385]

+1 to Pax and Capt. Charlie. They hit the nail in the head. It doesn't matter how many hours of training you have recieved, LEO or non LEO, there's nothing like real life experience. When I came out of a 7 month training academy, I recieved thousands of hours of training that most non LEO's don't have the time or opportunity to recieve. But thats just it, it's just training and that just sets the basis for real life experience. Nothing compares to having the real life experience of actually doing it, whether it be clearing a house or whatever.

[Dwight55]

pax +1

May God bless,
Dwight

[DeathRodent]

I think PAX stated it as well as can be.

My problem is if I left the door unlocked and the wind blew it open (a senior moment or brain f..t if you will) and I came home, I would have to wait hours for the police to arrive.

So I guess I'll send the dogs in first and listen.

[WIN71]

Anybody can clear any house, as long as it's empty to start with.

[Hkmp5sd]

Interesting question....

The basic answer I believe is numbers. Lots of cops.

Several years ago, my alarm went off and my wife arrived at the house about the same time as a dispatched deputy sheriff. She had hit the garage door opener as she pulled in, out of habit. The deputy looked around and didn't see anything. My wife asked him to check the house and he agreed.

He asked the house layout and started for the door in the garage. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees many plastic bags of empty brass lining the shelves in the garage. He steps back and asked my wife in there are any firearms in the house. :) Yep!

Deputy decides good way to clear house is lots of help. Ultimately, 8 deputies and one dog line up, guns drawn, to clear the house.


You may have the training. You may be armed even when taking a shower. You may have the lastest/greatest body armor available. You may have a flashlight so bright it is visible two galaxies over. You may have the best firearm/ammunition combination known to science. However, you are still alone and clearing a house is best done in numbers. The more the merrier.

One thing no one seems to consider is that the bad guy just might be a better shot than you. Why place yourself in danger when it is not necessary.

[C Philip]

Select-weapons, flashbangs, CS gernades, etc.

Actually you can get something similar to a CS grenade. http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/grenade.htm

But on topic, I'd say the main thing is backup, and the benefit of the doubt in terms of legal stuff when it comes to force on force situations and self defense shootings. Pax said it very well in #3.

[stanger04]

The one and only reason: Guy is inside hiding and they kill or disable him then they get sued not you. plus on this is you don't have to pay for the court costs

[James K]

They have training, experience, and authority. Plus, as Pax and stanger04 noted, they are covered in case of a civil suit, where a civilian is on his own.

That last is a VERY BIG point today, something that a lot of people who own and carry guns tend to forget. You could be cleared completely of any criminal wrong doing and yet lose everything you have or ever hope to have in a civil case.

I am a former deputy sheriff, and I would NEVER try to take on any potential problem if I had the alternative of calling the police. NEVER.

Jim

[lockedcj7]

The bottom line is that the BG has all of the advantages. He is going to hear you coming and will take up a defensive position. It doesn't matter if he's a good shot or not. It doesn't matter if you have the latest and greatest gear, training, backup, etc.

Anyone who has ever done CQB training will tell you that it is nearly impossible to get a determined adversary out of a building without taking some casualties.

I don't care how BadA$$ you are. Attempting to clear a house by yourself is one of the most dangerous things you can do. The more training you have, the more you come to realize that.

[Tripplethreat]

I'll also have to give a great big plus 1 to Pax and Capt. Charlie for those answers.I spent a long time as a LEO and if there is time and I think someone may be in my house,I'm getting the blues on the way ASAP,even tho I'm confident in my abilities.It's foolish to go it alone,if there's another way.
Also,the liability issue is correct.Leave the repercussions to a Police Dept.

[fastbolt]

Short answer?

Training for the task.

Experience with the task.

Additional help, who also generally has the benefit of training and experience.

Equipment brought to the scene (weapons, spare ammunition, perhaps more powerful flashlights, communications, maybe hearing amplification, body armor, etc.).

K-9's.

The benefit of Policies & Procedures.

The ability to immediately take suspects into custody, also in a manner consistent with training and experience.

Agency AND organization/association legal coverage and support.

Deeper pockets.

Worker's Compensation coverage if injured.

Just some thoughts ...

[Win62a]

The few runs I've had through TR's "Terminator" were enough to convince me that clearing a house isn't something that I ever want to do.

[tlm225]

+1 to Capt. Charlie.

Heres an extra. The advantage we have in defending our homes is maintaining a static position and let the intruder expose himself through movement. When we enter to clear our homes, the advantage shifts to the intruder who may be hidden and allowing us to enter the "kill zone".

On the job I've cleared hundreds of homes and businesses (six years as a K-9officer plus some more in regular patrol duties) so I've developed a little experience. I will not clear a scene solo.

[Haterade]

A radio. Backup. A system that puts the burden of proof on those other than.

[James K]

I have told this before, but just to lighten things up a bit....

A family in Arizona came home from a trip and found their front door ajar. Sensibly, they backed off and called the police. The responding officer, gun drawn, went in and found an intruder, completely naked, hiding in the hall closet. The man shoved the officer aside, and ran out the front door.

Seeing another patrol car pulling up, he turned and jumped over a board fence into the neighbor's yard.

He had failed, as they say, to "case" the neighborhood. Had he done so, he would have learned that the neighbor was well known throughout the Southwest for his large and magnificent cactus collection.

Jim

[cheygriz]

Training, BODY ARMOR, back up, and the "badge." If you catch the guy, do you have a pair of handcuffs handy??? If you get shot, are you wearing body armor? Do you know what to expect from a burglar based on lots of experience?

Another thing to consider. The BG is far less likely to try to take on two or three uniformed cops than he is to try to shoot it out with you. If he takes on the cops, he knows he's going to lose. He doesn;'t know how much, or little skill you have, so he might just think he can "take you."

And of course, the lawsuits. Whenever possible, let the people who are trained, equipped, backed up and paid do the job. Not always possible, of course, but foolish not to do when it is possible.

[Sturmgewehre]

I've heard a lot of people say things like, "If your house is burglarized, don't clear the house yourself. Let the police do it."

Here's my question. What makes police so much better than we civilians are ? Is it because they have guns & bullet-resistant vests? We can get those ourselves in certain states. Is it their training? If yes, where can we get it?

I don't mean any offense I was just curious. It seems to me that a lot of people think that real cops are just like John Preston* & us civillians are Barney Fifes .


*If you don't know who that is, go buy a copy of "Equilibrium" which is a favorite of TFL's Lawdog.
That's a general rule... not something to live by. If you're properly trained, there is no reason you can't be responsible for your own safety.

I'm a former FAST Marine. I've cleared rooms in multiple environments, trained with Washing State Police (SWAT), SEALs, Rangers, etc. I've protected high risk targets, strategic facilities, and done mundane crap like patrolled borders. I've also been a firearms instructor and taught machinegun courses in the civilian world.

I don't need the police clearing my house for me.

But, if you aren't in immediate danger and you have the opportunity to call the authorities, do so. If for no other reason than to protect yourself from legal action should you be forced to use deadly force... If trouble finds you or you feel threatened, by all means - protect yourself and family.

That's my personal opinion... YMMV.

[The Canuck]

Why would I let the cops do it? Because I don't want them shooting me or me shooting them! I will hole up, and let them come to me. Besides, my interest isn't in preserving my big screen TV or my Picasso on the wall. It is with keeping my family alive. Period. Before we get into serious self defence we should always have our mission priorities carved in stone.

Can I clear a house? Yep, the Army taught me FIBUA/CQB (same as MOUT/CQB) and they taught me very well. Have I trained with the cops who are on my side? Nope. They might be as well trained as I, but they will most likely have different SOPs, ROEs and EPOs from the ones I was trained with.

Another thing I want to add, when you clear a house, you do it in teams. Solos are much more dangerous and much more time consuming as you have to single check doors, corners and nooks. Anybody who's done it knows of what I speak. One day I had a Sgt. decide to give us a wake up call. He had us do a house solo (three floor house in "Margaritaville" in Wainright). Only one of us made it out "alive" the first time. At the end of the course we had to do a team and a solo. My solo took me four times longer than it did with a team. I only had three op-for to do.

[Blackwater OPS]

Most home owners will never have to clear their house, and I think I'm safe in saying that few, if any, will do it repeatedly.

I clear my own house all the time, and while it's not generally occupied by goblins, I still know it better than anyone. If SHTF, it would be like clearing my own shoothouse, while the local PD would be in unknown territory.

[revjen45]

When I took FAS-3 at Firearms Academy of Seattle Marty Hayes recommended against house clearing for all the reasons previously stated. You are at a tactical disadvantage.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My training experiences convince me that even though I know my house, I'm letting the law do it.

It is child's play to take out the single clearer if you have any competence. I've been bad guy and good guy. I'm calling the law unless it is a life and death rescue the loved one situation where my rational evaluation of acting rather than calling the law even then suggests I must act.

[kgpcr]

I think alot of people are Rambo wanabies. From one who has cleared houses with guys inside with auto weapons you want all the back up you can get. I did it in the Marines and its not fun. Why you would want to do that yourself is beyond me. Would i do it again? Yes but under the authority of the military when asked to do so. would i do it in my home? no let the police do it. I dont need to kill one more person so feel or prove i am tough. Let them deal with the legal implications. Taking a life is not a cool thing to do. Now if some one or several people are breaking into my house and i am inside its game on!! I will stop at nothing to protect my family but know this. they are all trained to call 911.

[Deaf Smith]

If my kids were in danger, sure I'd clear my own house. If I just got back from town and I knew no one was supposed to be there, I might perfer the law to do it for me.

But, if I have to clear the house, I'd turn on the TV or boom box REAL LOUD, kill the electricity, and then I'm on equal footing as any crook. But before I enter the house, I'd shout a warning, like, "I'M COMING IN, YOU HEAR? I'M COMING AND HELL IS COMING WITH ME, YOU HEAR? SO YOU BETTER GIT!" or at least something like that.

[easyG]

The way I see it is like this:

Cops don't have any advantage over me clearing my own home.
In fact, I have the advantage of knowing every hiding place in my home, every light switch, every blind turn, every mirror, every door in my home, and even every creak the floor makes in every room in my home.

Having said that, I would still call the police if I suspected that someone was in my home.
After all, why should I risk my life when there is someone available who volunteers and gets paid to such?

[deguello]

<But, if I have to clear the house, I'd turn on the TV or boom box REAL LOUD, kill the electricity, and then I'm on equal footing as any crook.>

Okay, I'm not making fun of you but I couldn't help laughing when I read that. Maybe you have a battery powered stereo and that's what you meant but I still thought it was funny.
And by the way I agree with all the people saying let the cops do it. If you're not forced into immediate action, it's much smarter to take back as much of the advantage as you can, besides I'd rather stand outside and feel like a fool waiting for the cops instead of maybe killing somebody and spending months and months in civil/criminal court.

[fastbolt]

You know, from a risk management or risk mitigation perspective it seems beneficial to allow someone else to clear dwellings or structures, absent any exigent circumstances which would cause a reasonable person to feel there was an imminent, immediate risk of serious bodily injury or death involved to someone, or an innocent third person, while waiting for authorities.

Dunno. Don't pretend to have the answer, let alone know and understand the applicable laws in each and every jurisdiction across our country.

As far as possessing detailed knowledge of my own house? Sure. That's why I'm still surprised when my wife has moved something, or temporarily sat something down, and I come cruising along in low light and encounter it with annoying and sometimes painful results.:mad: I've investigated cases where suspects created anywhere from a little to a lot of disarray inside dwellings and commercial buildings. Hard to take that into account.

Also, being rather familiar with my house I can well understand and anticipate how easily I could be ambushed and caught off-guard, even in my own house. Having searched and cleared my fair share of buildings during working hours, I really, really appreciate having at least one partner involved, so we can cover each other ... and it's even more comforting when there are more cover folks.

If I ever have to utilize the services of local LE to respond and clear my house, or property, I plan on focusing my attention on evacuating my family and providing for their protection while the uniforms do their thing ...

Anyone who has gone through any training involving building clearing quickly realizes that your first mistake could be your last.

Why not minimize exposure to risky situations?

Just my thoughts ...

[CobrayCommando]

You know, from a risk management or risk mitigation perspective it seems beneficial to allow someone else to clear dwellings or structures, absent any exigent circumstances which would cause a reasonable person to feel there was an imminent, immediate risk of serious bodily injury or death involved to someone, or an innocent third person, while waiting for authorities.

I agree, better them then me!

:)

[banditt007]

guy breaks into your house, you are armed and in a room. You are protected somewhat in the corner of the room with your gun trained on the door. You hear him slowly work through the house, and his hand is on the door and it opens.........

Flash back to

The BG is where you were above, armed and in a room. I dont see much if any chance of you getting out unharmed/alive if you have to get funneled through a door way, and the guy has a gun trained on the door. Even better yet him just shooting throught the door knowing you are on the other side of it.

What was it, only attack a defended position if you out number the enemy by 5? There is a saying similar to that for good reason.

[Smokin Joe]

no the whole point is that , if you are home and they come in, you DEFEND your self.

you come home to a buglary, you can turn and leave, or call the cops.

you go in and kill them, thats murder. you have just defended your PROPERTY.

you killed those scumbags for your HDTV. which may not totally be illegal where you may live, but still, that blood you gotta clean up, the stink yuck

[Powderman]

This is one reason I have a CHL. I always have a gun with me when I get home. If I ever find the house unlocked at night (even if I think I MIGHT have left the door unlocked) I go in and check with gun drawn.

As has been said very eloquently already:

NEVER clear a house alone. NEVER.

If you're outside and you even think that someone is inside, do NOT enter. Back off a safe distance, and call the police. That's what we're here for.

If you are inside your home and you believe someone has broken in, a little prior planning helps. Designate a safe room, where the whole family gathers if something is going bad. Have a spare cell phone there, charged and ready to go. Barricade yourself in the room and call the police. Until they get there, STAY IN THE ROOM. I don't care if they're walking out of the house with everything you own, STAY IN THE ROOM. It's not worth losing your life, or getting your family hurt.

And, if anyone opens that door before the police gets there, it's open season. Make DARNED sure that ALL of the family is in the room with you and out of the line of fire.

[Smokin Joe]

"If you are inside your home and you believe someone has broken in, a little prior planning helps. Designate a safe room, where the whole family gathers if something is going bad. Have a spare cell phone there, charged and ready to go. Barricade yourself in the room and call the police. Until they get there, STAY IN THE ROOM. I don't care if they're walking out of the house with everything you own, STAY IN THE ROOM. It's not worth losing your life, or getting your family hurt."

That seems great if you have insurance on all your stuff. Just let them take it, no one gets hurt.

nothing gets hurt but your pride. how those theives are calling you a sissy as they enjoy their new HDTV (formerly yours). sitting on their new couch, (fomerly yours), putting their dirty feet on their coffee table where formerly you were not allowed to do. Theyre all laughing and drinking your beer at their hideout talking about how you locked yourself in a room and wont come out... and how EASY it was to TAKE EVERYTHING !

Can you handle that ? Sure

Hurting your sense of pride is as real as any other injury. depression is real. and low self esteem that follows with not able to be a man thing...

[Powderman]

nothing gets hurt but your pride. how those theives are calling you a sissy as they enjoy their new HDTV (formerly yours). sitting on their new couch, (fomerly yours), putting their dirty feet on their coffee table where formerly you were not allowed to do. Theyre all laughing and drinking your beer at their hideout talking about how you locked yourself in a room and wont come out... and how EASY it was to TAKE EVERYTHING !

Can you handle that ? Sure

Hurting your sense of pride is as real as any other injury. depression is real. and low self esteem that follows with not able to be a man thing...


OK. So, here's one possible scenario:

You exit the room with your (insert firearm of choice here) ready. As you turn the corner to go downstairs to confront the criminals, you see one of them just coming to the top of the stairs, with a gun in hand. You swing your weapon to bear.

But, he shoots first.

The first hit jarred you badly; the gunman fires multiple times at almost muzzle contact distance. He does not miss. You collapse.

The last thing you see on this earth is your wife's face as she looks out of the door to see if you are OK--and your killer as he steps over your body and heads for your wife.

Like I said:

Your LIFE--and your family's LIVES--are much more important than any physical possession you have now, or may have in the future.

Your lives are worth much more than your pride, and your "manliness"

And believe this, friend: When it's all over, and your wife remembers you standing between them and the unspeakable, and wraps her arms around you; when your children hug you and say, "Daddy wouldn't let the bad men get us!"--well, that's the manliest feeling in the world. :)

[Al Norris]

V4? You still here?

Listen to the experts. It's what I would have told you.

Yes, I've been trained to clear a building. When we trained single man entry, I got my butt handed to me, 3 out of 4 times. Could I do it today, assuming there was no other alternative (highly unlikely, though)? Yes... But to be perfectly honest, I would need a change of clothes afterwords.

Realisticly, it takes a trained team. The more the merrier, as it has been said.

In the basic scenario that you posted, the best course of action is to get out of, or stay out of the house and call for the police.

[9mmsnoopy]

A voracious appetite for donuts and a badge, thats about it.

[Smokin Joe]

bla bla bla and then.... Your LIFE--and your family's LIVES--are much more important than any physical possession you have now, or may have in the future.

Your lives are worth much more than your pride, and your "manliness"

not everyone values life above all. didnt you see the new clint eastwood movie, "letters from iwo jima " ?

and anyway, they are house burglars, how tactical can they be ? if they were better than most, they'd be robbin something else.

A voracious appetite for donuts and a badge, thats about it.

darn you ! theres a dunkin donuts down the block, now I want a donut so bad...

[9mmsnoopy]

A voracious appetite for donuts


This is based on scientific proof :D My brother was skinny when he became a cop, after about a year on the job he is fattening up quite nicely.

We did have a couple of local cops here who i know weighed atleast 300 pounds, kinda disgraceful if you ask me, who the heck are they going to run after? Someone must have cracked down on them, one of them is now the health code inspector and the other one i havent seen in a long time.

[Powderman]

not everyone values life above all. didnt you see the new clint eastwood movie, "letters from iwo jima " ?


Movie?! MOVIE???

Friend, with all due respect, wake up and smell the coffee.

This isn't about "pride", or macho, or manliness, or whatever else you want to call it. This is about LIFE and DEATH--and the very real possibility of a very messy, violent death. It's also about (if you're married with a family) having you taken from your family in the moment of their greatest need, and leaving them possibly at the hands of sadists who want nothing more than to get even with you for interrupting their fun.

This is about the possibility of something happening that will make men soil their pants quickly--the absolute hell of a gunfight, face to face, with multiple assailants in close quarters. This is about the very real possibility of fighting on even though you're wounded or maimed.

My son is a Marine. He spent some time in Fallujah when they retook the city. He has mentioned to me--very briefly--incidents where he and his squad encountered armed Iraqis in the houses they were searching.

None of the Iraqis surrendered.

I asked my son what happened, and he looked at me. I remembered when he was younger how he looked--always kind of goofy, and handsome to a fault. Now, my son--my little boy--looked at me through a man's eyes, eyes that had a hard shine to them and at the same time looked much older than his 24 years.

He simply said, "We came out. They didn't." He has never talked about it since then.

This isn't fun and games, friend. Take that to heart.

[Charles S]

Actually this is a good question. Questions like this are interesting to me because it can almost be used as a litmus test to delineate between the armchair “experts”, people who have no training and need no training, and those people on the board who are knowledgeable to varying degrees about self defense.

To answer your question directly, the average policeman is probably not as skilled as the average shooter who loves to shoot and shoots a lot, this is because the average policeman is not a shooter (there are exceptions so if you are don’t get upset). The police officer does however have training; the average shooter does not, and therefore does not understand how dangerous building clearing can be.

For those of you who think you can safely clear a building, I would like for you to ponder these thoughts.

If there is truly evidence that there is someone in the building, the first police officer who responds will not enter the building without backup, there will be at least one other officer, probably two (these officers will have support, body armor and training). The officer may choose to utilize the canine unit to clear the building.

The varying special operations units spend a tremendous amount of time on room clearing, and structure clearing because it is one of the most dangerous and difficult task they are assigned to do.

Get some training; I think if you practice in a single room kill house with Simunition® Cartridges you will realize that the defender has an incredible advantage. Train against silhouettes in a house clearing environment and when you realize how vulnerable you are you will change your mind.

If you truly feel that there is an armed individual in your home and it needs to be cleared the call the police and leave house clearing to groups of professionals with body armor, training, teamwork, and support.

It is fun to do room clearance training with groups, I highly encourage everyone to attend a class with room clearing as a component, and you will learn a lot. If you can find a course that offers it with low light training even better, one of the best courses I have ever taken involved shooting in varying degrees of lighting and room clearing.

[Smokin Joe]

get up and smell the coffee,
Many other cultures see things differently, losing "face" or "honor" can be worse than death.

Back in the days, there were duels, if you were to goose my wife, I would challenge you to a fight to the death.

Just because we americans now live in THIS time and THIS place, dont mean the whole world thinks like 60's peace loving hippies..

I, wont get in to the house. I'll stand outside and shoot them from behind cover when they come out with my stuff. had that been legal that is, in some states it might be legal to defend property...

Also I believe in fighting back. you dont just let people come in and take what they want, what kind of society is this when everyone is so selfish to fight for an ideal.

we's still be british if we didnt fight.

there ' ll be alot more crime if word gets out that most people just let you come in and take what you want.

Sure a few good men will die. but that is perfectly acceptable in this "war against crime".

[Glenn E. Meyer]

City of New York - do you even have guns there for the typical renter or homeowner? Is goosing rampant?

Le'ts be a touch more mature here. Geez!

[Smokin Joe]

yes we have guns here.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's supposedly very difficult to get a handgun permit in NYC. How did you do it?

[Smokin Joe]

It's supposedly very difficult to get a handgun permit in NYC. How did you do it?

Its easy really. if you got the money and the time and the patience.

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/dclm/ldinfo.html

[OBIWAN]

For those that think they can clear any home(theirs or someone else's) by themselves

Try it....get a couple airsoft pistols and just try it

Very enlightening

Unless your partner is a real dunce he can find a position that allows him to hose you before you ever see him

Would I "clear my house" if my kids lives were in danger...sure

But if my family comes home to find an open front door I am calling the police

[garryc]

Speaking only for Ohio, If you clear your own house and end up shooting a BG, you are going to prison.

[Powderman]

Many other cultures see things differently, losing "face" or "honor" can be worse than death.

Back in the days, there were duels, if you were to goose my wife, I would challenge you to a fight to the death.

Just because we americans now live in THIS time and THIS place, dont mean the whole world thinks like 60's peace loving hippies..

I, wont get in to the house. I'll stand outside and shoot them from behind cover when they come out with my stuff. had that been legal that is, in some states it might be legal to defend property...

Also I believe in fighting back. you dont just let people come in and take what they want, what kind of society is this when everyone is so selfish to fight for an ideal.

we's still be british if we didnt fight.

there ' ll be alot more crime if word gets out that most people just let you come in and take what you want.

Sure a few good men will die. but that is perfectly acceptable in this "war against crime".
__________________


OK, I positively HAVE to ask:

Are you old enough to even OWN a gun?

[Smokin Joe]

OK, I positively HAVE to ask:

Are you old enough to even OWN a gun?

all right, I dont get it, what so wrong with what I posted ? does it seem immature ? or is the ideals of it so foreign to you that you cannot comprehend ?

I still stand behind what I said.

1 - some cultures there are fates worse than death

2 - I believe in fighting for what you know is right

3 - I refuse to be taken advantage of.

but if you dont feel the same, thats cool, we all got our own opinions.

and out of curiousity, how old u think I am ?

[Powderman]

No comment, friend.

I also believe that there are things worth fighting for--and yes, things worth dying for.

I will lay my life on the line to protect my family, my Country, or an innocent man, woman or child who is about to be hurt. I will step into the breach if it is necessary.

That being said, I do not plan to give my life cheaply.

When you enter a house or building where you KNOW another hostile person is, who may or may not have the intent to cause you grevious harm, you are walking into an ambush. Same thing if you boil out of your safe room--you are dancing to their tune, and it may not be a song that you like.

Waiting behind cover, or monitoring the outside of the dwelling puts you into the superior tactical position. It is a well known and taught military tactic--an element that attacks a fortified position is at a great disadvantage.

Now, what do you do when the person exits your home, and has your (gasp) brand new plasma HDTV in his hands?

NOTHING.

Observe, record license numbers, and relay the proceedings to the police dispatcher on the cell phone. You DO have a cell phone, right?

The guy with the plasma TV does NOT, at the moment, pose a threat to you or to anyone else. Yep, it's expensive. Yep, he broke into your house. SO WHAT?!?

Are you prepared to kill over that?

Now, if you are approaching your home, and you KNOW that your family is inside--this is what I would do.

Call 911, tell them really quickly what's going on, give them a description of what I'm wearing...

then draw my pistol, get to the house, and start to take care of business. I'll clear one room at a time, and get to my family. And, may God have mercy on whoever is in my home that would do my family harm--because I won't.

Hoist the black flag, and skin them smokewagons, boys.

[Smokin Joe]

ALL GOOD POINTS. though I would really really reaallllyyyy want to shoot the guy with my TV, I know doing so is wrong.


you might hit the TV. :D :rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So do you actually have a gun and/or any real training in its usage?

[Smokin Joe]

So do you actually have a gun and/or any real training in its usage?

if you are referring to me, yes, former us military and training in all the infantry's ordance incl rifel postol grenade mine bayonet hand to hand and etc with also 15 years law enforcement with two city agencies.

but of course, you arent gnna believe me anyway, like, this IS the internet where everyone is their own chief of police...

[OBIWAN]

What is that Patton quote...something like your job is to make the other stupid bastard die for HIS country

I would much rather preserve my Honor ALONG WITH my life:D

Then I can live to a ripe old age and teach the little children how not to die od stupidity

How is calling for reinforcements (police) somehow "wrong"

If you walk into a house where armed bad guy(s) are waiting and they kill you you may have won some moral victory but you are STILL a victim...likely a dead victim

I love all the old John Wayne movies where the hero charges into machine gun fire, facing certain death.

But even as a kid I was smart enough to assume that there was some compelling reason to do it other than confirming your manhood

[Smokin Joe]

GOOD ONE ! die for HIS country.. ha ha ha ha

[lockedcj7]

When I was younger, my friends and I played paintball a lot. One of our favorite exercises was attempting to clear each other out of a barn. The aggressor NEVER won unless he employed some type of distraction/diversion AND the OPFOR broke cover.

After I got out of the Army, we played a lot more and it only reinforced what I learned before. You don't ever want to be in a real firefight. To those of you who have experienced it, my hat is off to you.

If you want to attempt to clear your own home, go right ahead. We tried to warn you but maybe you'd rather be "right" than alive.

[Smokin Joe]

it really depends on who you are and what your home has.

If you are wanted dead by a crime organization then DONT GO IN.

If your house contains millions of dollars of van gogh, then DONT GO IN.

If you are a ordinary JOE SMOE, with an ordinary home with nothing out of the ordinary inside,

then you prob find HOUSE BURGLARS.

Some people here think you'll be kicking down the door of a mob owned meth lab or somehting geeze.

If your house buglar is so well trained and well armed, he'd do better elsewhere instead of robbin your house when u are away..

[David Armstrong]

"I'M COMING IN, YOU HEAR? I'M COMING AND HELL IS COMING WITH ME, YOU HEAR? SO YOU BETTER GIT!"
Oh Lordy, I can see the lawsuit now! IF you are going to make an announcement, please refrain from strange superlatives that can only cast one in a negative light.

And I'm with most others here. I spent several years where clearing houses was part of the job, I've been as well-trained as jsut about anyone here, and I don't clear a house by myself. I call the local PD.

[David Armstrong]

all right, I dont get it, what so wrong with what I posted ? does it seem immature ?
Yes.
1 - some cultures there are fates worse than death
In this culture killing somebody over property is frowned upon. I'd question anybody who thinks losing their TV is worse than death.
2 - I believe in fighting for what you know is right
And do you really believe that killing somebody over a TV or a couch is right?
3 - I refuse to be taken advantage of
I'd still question anybody who thinks being taken advantage of should result in the death of someone.
but if you dont feel the same, thats cool, we all got our own opinions.
Yes, and when opinions conflict with law, the law will usually win.

If your house buglar is so well trained and well armed, he'd do better elsewhere instead of robbin your house when u are away..
He doesn't have to be well trained or well armed. All he has to do is squat down behind an old couch and shoot you with a sawed off shotgun held together with duct tape. You lose.

[Charles S]

If you are a ordinary JOE SMOE, with an ordinary home with nothing out of the ordinary inside,

then you prob find HOUSE BURGLARS.

Some people here think you'll be kicking down the door of a mob owned meth lab or somehting geeze.

If your house buglar is so well trained and well armed, he'd do better elsewhere instead of robbin your house when u are away..

The problem is that in a defensive position in a home it takes no training for the ordinary bugler to have a significant advantage over you. All he needs is a firearm. The literature varies regarding the defenders advantages in a room clearing situation, but you can safely assume that the defender will win. The person doing the clearing will be funneled into a kill zone and die (the criminal may not understand the theory behind what he does, but he will understand that if he waits in a room behind cover watching a doorway he has the advantage).

Mr. Farnam one of the acknowledged tactics experts has written a great deal on the subject and he feels building clearance should be left for teams that are trained in the subject and can work together.

The classes I have taken has convinced me to leave room clearing to the experts if it is at all possible. Yes I would do it if I thought my spouse or children were in immediate danger, but I also know what my chances of success are. If it were avoidable, then I would not clear a building.

I have built a layered defensive strategy that makes gaining entry into my home progressively harder. If someone breaks in and I am there I will take up a defensive position and call 911. If someone breaks in and I am not there I will call 911 and wait for the experts to assess the situation.

Again.

Questions like this are interesting to me because it can almost be used as a litmus test to delineate between the armchair “experts”, people who have no training and need no training, and those people on the board who are knowledgeable to varying degrees about self defense.

[David Armstrong]

I would much rather preserve my Honor ALONG WITH my life
Well said. Dying with honor still means you are dead.

[Smokin Joe]

In this culture killing somebody over property is frowned upon. I'd question anybody who thinks losing their TV is worse than death.

This is my last post in this thread.

When a criminal acts upon you,

what most people say is to give it to them, dont resist. you dont wanna get hurt. Let them have their way.

You let a criminal GO, even if YOU ARE SAFE, between the time that you let him go, and the cops catch up, (can be hours, can be never) he could have raped and murdered others.

SO that SOB walking off with my TV...

I'm not saying you should do anything, this is just my opinion.

[OBIWAN]

Who said to let them go (although if they leave before the cops show up I suppose that might happen)

We were discussing the relative merits of going in after them...as in where "fools rush in"

If you must die, then by all means "die well"

But don't step in front of a bus just to make a point

[Smokin Joe]

Who said to let them go

read this tread again, there was this one dude who suggested a "safe room" where you hide in it as the burglars walk off with all your stuff.

NOW, that is the last post in this tread for me. I surrender.

[markj]

Must be one heck of a TV :)

Getting shot hurts, ask anyone that has been. Dying for a TV isnt in my aganda. I can get another one, my kids cannot replace me. Use yer head and think about it. Fate worse than death? and what would that actually be? Dead is soooo final. Meth heads have shot up a few folks here, I will not be one of them. Good luck to you I hope you never have to find out the hard way....

[Smokin Joe]

Its a Great TV !

[Slopemeno]

What do cops have that I dont? MORE OF THEM. With all due respect, if one dies I bet theres another in his area on patrol in a few hours. They take the risks so I dont have to. Thats what I pay for.

[HiltonFarmer]

Our rookies go through months of FTO training before they go solo. During the FTO programs, rookies are exposed to the real thing, not simulations.

With all due respect Capt Charlie, what happens after the training and having been on the job where the most they ever draw their weapon is maybe 1X/mo at the range. Do they continue the "real thing" training on a continual basis? Having so little practical experience time, do they really stay as sharp as they should be?

Experience is definitely gained by doing but the question begs to be asked; how often are they doing it?

Please don't get me wrong, if my house is broken into, I will call a LEO but it'll take them about 45 minutes to get to my 10-20. A long time before I could eat dinner. :eek:

HiltonFarmer

[kgpcr]

Smokin Joe you scare my and i am a combat tested Marine. A guy like you should not have a ccw. I can see you are itching for a fight. Well i have been in enough to know there is nothing macho about it and you certainly dont sound macho you sound stupid. If there are people in my house and my family is outside then i call 911. If my family is inside and people are breaking in they will loose thier life if they dont retreat. A smart man will tell you that the best fight is one you dont have to get in. A fooling man will always choose to fight. A wise man knows the difference. I am not afraid of a fight my service record shows that but i wont shoot someo one for a TV. A life even a thiefs life is more valuable than a TV. If you dont think so then you are no better than they are and certainly not as smart. You are a person with a can of gas looking for a fire. I just hope you dont get burned when you find one.

[Smokin Joe]

Smokin Joe you scare my and i am a combat tested Marine.

Oh please, I've been to vietnam and saw alot of stuff you have never seen. whatevers.. whatevers..

If I seem blood thirsty, thats because I didnt grow up here in the USA. I grew up in a place where criminals are not given cable TV and 3 squares a day, where the dark of society didnt go to crime because its easier than to find a real job. Where I am from, you get the firing squad for alot less than you would think.

I came from a country with 4 thousand years of history. not your 200 year old USA all respecting the lives of evil doers..

A criminals life is not valuable, they are a drain on society. Dirt that needs to be cleaned up.

I am sure, that no one here would be upset if the next day's headlines reads... " ALL OF AMERICA'S CRIMINALS HAVE DROPPED DEAD".

and to top it off, ALL THEIR ORGANS HARVESTED FOR TRANSPLANTS, SAVED THOUSANDS OF GOOD PEOPLE'S LIVES...

You see, the only people I will forgive for crime, is Kids. Kids dont know better, they have bad parents. but as an adult , you should know better, and if you want to steal from innocent hard working people, then you are scum, and you dont deserve the wonderful gift of a human body.

So you will die, and reincarnate as a turkey.

also, KGPCR,

ALSO.....

KGPCR: A life even a thiefs life is more valuable than a TV.

you must have some really crappy TV. I have a LCD HDTV, its awesome, you should see how crisp and clear DVDs are on it.... the screen is very big too, sitting on the couch its like you are in the theater !

[Smokin Joe]

Look. if a criminal's life is worth so much, then WHY DOES THE DEATH PEANALITY EXIST ?


all throughout history, crimials are taken care of by killing them.

Hangings, electic chairs, gas chambers, beheadings, leathal injections, firing squads,

whats this with you oh so loving criminals?

Marine my hooah's hooie. When you go to combat, you arent fighting criminals, you are fighting THEIR COUNTRY's PATRIOTS.

YES, even al queida is considered themselves figthing for their own country and etc... though their methods may be misguided.

[Al Norris]

Ad hominems from the right... Ad hominems from the left...

This thread is done.:mad: