trouble in neighborhood, need advice

[wrench007]

Sorry for my 1st post and wanting advice, but here goes. My neighborhood has become a desaster area. Drugs/meth etc. My neighbor's window was shot out two days ago around 03:38 AM. I'm in fear of my safety of my family. All I have is a Winchester Ranger model 120 12 gauge shotgun with a 28" barrel and a Ruger 10/22 rifle. My question, Is there anything I can do to to my shotgun to shorten the barrel, And make it something better for home security, 28" just seems to hard to use in the house. It has a rib/sight on top of the barrel. I can use my cut off saw to bring it down to where it's legal, I think that's 18 1/2 inches. Is this possible, or should I just go out and buy a new gun? Apperciate any info. Thanks in advance, Steve

[BUCKMARK]

Please do not attempt to cut down the barrel on your Winchester.

Winchester used a floating dovetailed vent rib on their barrels. This means that the rib is connected to the rib posts at the rear, and at the muzzle of the barrel. The rest of the rib is floating on the dovetail posts.

If you were to cut the barrel down, the rib would only be connected to the rib posts at the rear of the barrel. It would be very easy to knock it off.

Don't do it.

A 28" barrel isn't great for home defense...but it will work. In a pinch, ANY gun can and has been used to protect a home...including those old stamped Liberator .45's they air dropped in WWII. I doubt ANYONE really wanted to use one of them. But they worked.

My advise is to buy a box of #4 Turkey shells and have the Winchester ready. Also...look for a plain non-ribbed barrel for your 1200/120 Winchester. This barrel can be cut down to 18" without problems.

Look here

www.e-gunparts.com

[banditt007]

hey sorry to hear about your situation. load up some #1, 0, 00, or 00 buck. 2 3/4" non-magnum shells, low recoil if possible. i'd either get another barrel or another short barreled shotgun. legal length is 18". you can measure this by making sure the gun is unloaded(obviously) have it ready to fire as if there was a shell in there, then drop a dowel or something similar down the barrel that is 18". the 18 1/2" thing is 'just to be on the safe side' basically its measured from locked bolt face to the end of the muzzle.

I wouldnt suggest turkey loads, they recoil the same or more as buckshot, and lack the penetration needed to hit the vitals. Not saying a turkey load wont mess someone up/kill them, but why take the chance when your life is on the line, when there are better options? The only advantage is less penetration through walls and such than the larger buckshot sizes. Everyone has their own opinion. this is mine....to each their own.

[BUCKMARK]

banditt007 -

I suggested #4 turkey not for penetration, but for safety.

Some of those old 120 Wins had a really tight fixed full choke ( he didnt say). Pushing a large number of buckshot thru these barrels is really pushing the pressure limits.

I simply dont recommend buckshot through a older gun with a tight choke so people don't blame me for problems.

I load 00 buck in my HD shotty.

[gnut]

I would move.

[Smokin Joe]

if you cant afford to move, bullet proof your windows. a plywood box with sand in it will do wonders. (on the cheap)

[Smokin Joe]

but paint your windows first so they look normal from the outside, not like you boarded up your windows...

[The Gamemaster]

Buy a new barrel for your shotgun and turkey loads.

You do not want to kill them, just wound them a little till the cops show up.

You do not want to be shooting off the porch either.

Unless they come inside of your house - there is nothing you can do besides call the police and let them handle it.

If you know who the crack heads are and the meth dealers. Get a video camera and tape their commings and goings and dope deals and people that are visiting the house and write down license plate numbers.

Give the info to the police and let them arrest the crack heads and clean up your neighborhood.

Refusing to get involved just makes it easier for the dope dealers to operate.

[Capt Charlie]

First, welcome to TFL, Steve! Maybe some good can come out of your situation, and that would be to move you deeper into the world of firearms and shooting. :)

The shotgun's a start, but by itself it doesn't even begin to be a solution. Some serious defensive training and pre-planned tactics are in order.

That said, I think both issues would be better addressed in our Tactics & Training Forum. Moving there now.

[wrench007]

Thanks so much for your replys. I was woundering about that dovetail rib on the barrel. Now I know not to do any cuting. I appreciate that advice. And I didn't think about looking for another barrel, so that's my next step. I have no idea how I will react when and if someone breaks in. I just hope I make the right choice. It gives me the creeps just thinking about it. But I have been getting up around 1 or 2 in the morning, getting license plate #s and make/model and provideing that to police. But it's all around me and I can only do so much, My nextdoor neighbor had her window shot out a few days ago, made a hole in the window about the size of a half dollar. That's getting awful close to home. I sure thank you for the help.

[Edward429451]

If you can't move, at least keep filling the police up with reports so if something happens you'll have a paper trail that you were trying to do the right thing before they forced you to...whatever.

Winchester made some round plain barrels for awhile, maybe you could locate on of those to cut down & have bead installed.

[jhenry]

You do not want to wound them a little bit till the cops show up. The goal to stop the aggresor. "I was afraid for my life/my families life etc etc, so I had to do something to stop it". You shoot with the intent to stop the threat period. Whether or not the Goglin gets wounded, scared by your poor marksmanship, or shot graveyard dead are things that just don't matter. That being said, once you decide you are going to protect your person and your family by the use of a firearm if needed, you have to accept the fact that you may kill someone when shooting to stop. Becoming involved in a leathal encounter with the mindset of wounding them just a little is just asking to be killed.

Move if you can do so.

Be real cautious about writting down license numbers and videotaping criminals doing their buisness. You are still living there and criminals do not take lightly to having folks interfere with buisness. I'm not saying don't do it, that's a decision you will have to make on your own. I am saying be real careful.

As for firearms, the 12 gauge you have now is OK but I would get a shorter replacement barrel or trade it on a shorter barreled shotgun. Use OO buck. Also go get a good handgun in an adequate caliber and fill it with premium ammo. Then go get a carry permit if one is available to you.

Good luck and move to a different neighborhood.

[revjen45]

If you live anywhere near Big 5 watch their ads. Every few weeks they offer Mossberg 500s, either with 2 barrels or in the 8 shot Persuader version for around $239. My neighborhood isn't all that bad, but I bought a Persuader.

[2400]

You do not want to kill them, just wound them a little till the cops show up.


This is really poor advice.

If you have to shoot, shoot to stop the threat.

[allenomics]

Here's my two cents...

-Get with other good neighbors and start a Neighborhood Watch.
-Communicate with your police/sheriff's department and ask for more regular patrols in your neighborhood (get a signed petition of neighbors if necessary).
-If you have a homeowners's association, consider spending some money for off-duty security (about $35 an hour).
-Develop, print and circulate a newsletter to neighbors addressing the security issue.
-Call your city/county elected commissioners and inform then about your problem. Invite them to visit your neighborhood, meet residents and walk around.
-Organize a neighborhood day of volunteering. Clear vacant lots, etc. This is a great way to help build a sense of unity/community.
-Review the home security book and take the home security class offered by the NRA.

Unless you are a gunsmith, don't make any radical changes to your shotgun. I'd consider buying a firearm as well. Visit your local gunshop for advice, fire several guns and consider making a purchase. Practice makes perfect. Also, I would not let neighbors (or the bad guys) know that you have a gun. When you are away, they may enter your home and steal it.

Good luck!

[rb4browns]

I know it's easier said than done, but IMHO the absolute most important thing you can do to keep your family safe is have them in an area where you have the least chance of needing to use a firearm God forbid. You may have to scrimp and save and go without, but you have to ask yourself what the hell you are doing there if you have a serious fear for your safety.

My wife and I live in Los Angeles county, and for me it's worth it to cut corners here and there to have a tiny 1 bedroom apartment in the safest part of this area. For what we are paying we could have a nice size 2bdr apartment 10 blocks over, but we would also have to deal with gangs, drugs and other assorted things I put up with when I was younger and struggling. For me my family's safety is more important than material things. Good luck. I spent years in gang and drug infested areas, and I do not miss the sounds of gunshots in the alley and hypodermic needles in the gutter.

[wrench007]

You folks have been great! Lots of good advice here. I never used to worry about my neighborhood years past. But I belive the meth problem is taking over this area. We have one of the highest meth problems per capita in the United States. There are many programs directed in the city to help curb this but it's going to take a long time. It's hard to belive that a small town of Great Falls, Montana has to deal with this. These problem kids will do just about anything to get thier "fix". Again, let me thank you for your advice. You have been a big help. Steve

[BillCA]

If Buckmark is correct that a Model 1200 barrel will fit your shotgun, there are a couple on eBay that might work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Winchester-Defender-12ga-Shotgun-Barrel_W0QQitemZ260091021470QQihZ016QQcategoryZ73955QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Winchester-1200-Defender-12-ga-shotgun-barrel-18_W0QQitemZ110096668286QQihZ001QQcategoryZ73955QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[habeuscorpse]

Many good neighborhoods have gone down the tubes to drug trafficking and related criminal activity like prostitution. There is virtually nothing that will clean them up as these are symptoms of the underlying disease, a collapsing post industrial society with less manpower requirements and an absence of personal ethincs in the affected population. Move or get better guns and board up. Sorry.

[banditt007]

the problem with meth too, is that people hyped up on that stuff tend to become 'bullet sponges' scary stuff

[BouncerDan]

My personal opinion would be both to buy a new gun and to move. Even if you do get a new gun HD can be a mess. I mean even if it is a clean cut case who really wants to do all that paperwork? Not to mention if you are a heavy sleeper as I can be who will know if the BG that is breaking in will be nice enough to wake you up before shooting you?

Move and buy a new gun just to be safe. Good luck

Dan

[Willy T]

Very suprised to hear this of Great Falls MT but I guess it is happening everywhere. My advice till you can move is mind your own business, lay low and get your family out as soon as possible. Dont get me wrong. If your family is threatened meet the threat with very lethal force. Speak softly and carry a big ass stick but make plans now to leave. Things dont generally get better.

[moredes15]

Dunno any gun that'll stop bullets. You say your next-door neighbor's house was shot at?? You mean like, not 2 doors down, or 'down the block', but "next door"??

If you can afford to pay the rent, you can afford to move. If you can't afford to pay the rent, there ain't NOTHIN' holdin' you down. So tell me again, why are you still there??

I'm tryin' to list all the reasons that would keep me from moving my family away from a "next door" neighbor who's obviously somebody's target. I mean, how do you know nobody's gonna drift off target during a drive-by, or maybe mistake your house for hers?

Good luck finding that magic gun.

[killjoy]

If you're going to shoot somebody at all do the job right!

[wrench007]

moredes15, Yes the shot was fired into a window less than 30 feet from my house. I'm on a fixed income right now so moving is not an option right now. BUT, I think the shooter has been caught. I won't go into details right now, but I belive the info I gave to police/detectives helped. They have his gun right now. Same cal that went through the window.
But moving right now is not an option for me, matter of fact,, we just spent over $15,000 in upgrades over the past five years, just got new windows this past spring. With this neighborhood, I would call this a loss. I look at this way. I live in a very nice home in a terible nieghborhood.

[Willy T]

In that case wrench, Its hard to know what to do. I lived in a rotten part of Miami during school because that is what I could afford. I cant believe it to be that bad in Great Falls. Probably some screwed up punk ass kids and the like and their screwed up parents. Still not a place to raise a family. Your pump Winchester is an excellant deterent. I personally would chose oo but why not go down to your local pawnshop and pick up a cheap shotgun for cutting? I see them all the time for 79$.

[moredes15]

Wrench,

I'm not tryin' to be glib here nor snotty neither. I'd pay $15,000 to bring someone back from the dead if I could. Hell, I'd let you set the price and toe that mark; beg, borrow and steal. Money's nothing that can't be replaced. There's always options, especially when the only tentative losses are counted in dollars. Money's a tool that's replaceable. Ten to fifteen years from now, you won't even feel the dollars lost. My advice is to make decisions (in consideration of financial repercutions) only when that decision affects the sum of your luxury and conveniences, not the personal safety of family.

This is a terrible real estate market to sell in; hopefully, your problem is solved as you said. God forbid, if harm came to my family because a drive-by shooting that I could 'anticipate' I could look back the rest of my days and point to a perfect time to move (and then sell)-- the day before.

Buying a gun is no solution (long or short term). Only fantastic coincidence and synchronicity would put me at the door armed at the exact proper time in the wee hours of the night and enable me to save my all. I'd bet in most cases, odds are all that shooting would only actually wake me to the danger, and by the time my response was full-fledged, the time for 'effective' response most likely would have passed. One thing's for sure; once the bullets have flown, all I can do is call out names and hope for a response. You can have the money; I'd be movin'.

I've been there; I lived in Oakland 2 blocks from Felix Mitchell's HUD crack house. We left as soon as we found out about it. Yes, we were financially 'able'; but we weren't ready. The Mitchell brothers forced our hand. It took years to recover financially; but we did. Money comes and goes in spurts; we're gonna make, spend, save, and lose money all our lives. Financial 'luck' is always around the corner; a debilitating injury or death is permanent.

Get out of Dodge if you have to; you'll recover 20-34% of those losses at tax time anyway.

[wrench007]

Buying a gun is no solution (long or short term). Only fantastic coincidence and synchronicity would put me at the door armed at the exact proper time in the wee hours of the night and enable me to save my all. I'd bet in most cases, odds are all that shooting would only actually wake me to the danger, and by the time my response was full-fledged, the time for 'effective' response most likely would have passed. One thing's for sure; once the bullets have flown, all I can do is call out names and hope for a response. You can have the money; I'd be movin'.

[wrench007]

Whoops, Don't know how to do Quotes yet. Sorry about that. But that is exactly the way I feel. The chances of me being awake, alert and ready and even experienced are slim to none. I just don't know how I would react. I did fine in Vietnam and surprised myself several times when our base was almost overrun twice while I was there. But I'm older now and slower. But you make a great point and that's the one I fear the most, not being ready. Right now I'm sleeping downstairs in my den where my guns are (Shotgun and a ruger 22 rifle) Because there is only one way in and I sleep light and hopefully would here them. Thanks for your thoughts, really appreciate them.

[Diesel1]

I lived in Dorchester MA in a bad neighborhood. I awoke one night when I heard banging off the side of my apartment and went to investigate. There was as a boy about 8 years old banging a ball off the side of the house. Did I mention that it was 4AM in the morning? A week later I heard a few gunshots at night and when I went out to look around the next day I saw several bullet holes near the window where my 2 year old son was sleeping. It was then that I said to my wife, "We're outta here." If moving is at possible I would take that option. I didn't think I could do it either but I had to.

[swk314]

Diesel1,

I grew up in Dorchester, MA. my whole life. My family still lives there. You're right it is a bad neighborhood. Random gunshots are always heard so that is nothing new for me.

Wrench,

I hope all works out for you. I know that it would be very tough for you to pick up your whole family and move. If it was possible I would recommend moving, and at the very least purchasing a new gun and a concealed handgun license and have your wife do the same. Your 12 guage is a good start, but it limits your mobility. You might want to invest in flood lights with motion detectors, and some models can even be attached to an audio alarm inside the house. You could also run a phone line into the master bedroom(if it hasn't alreasy been done already). Dogs can be very good alarms/deterrents also.

[Mannlicher]

its amusing to see first posters wanting advice on altering guns. Makes one wonder............

[kikr]

Forget altering the gun, try altering the neighborhood.

I recently moved into a neighborhood that had a crack house about 2 blocks down from my own. The first thing I did was get to know my neighbors. I have 14 houses on my street and 10 of them are honest, hard working, god fearing people. After attending a few community meetings, talking to several of the LEO's that work my area, and attending a couple of PTA meetings I started getting obnoxious.

First I started calling the police about every little thing. Group of teens hanging out on the corner, the cops got called. Jerk off sitting out in the street with car stereo blaring, cops got called. Everytime I saw a drug sale made I called the cops, every time I saw one of these twits carrying a weapon, the cops got called. It finally go to the point where the police were on my street more than they were at the station.

Then I started in on the parents, "Mrs Smith, your son and his two friends where hanging out behind 1203 smoking pot" "Mrs Jones, your son was trying to break into the apartment complex down the street, I yelled at him and he ran into the park"

Then I started in on the school. "why are there no faculty outside when schools let out?" Why are the students not being monitored as to who's picking them up after school?"

Took about 4 months but it ended up with the crack house getting raided and shut down. One of the other houses got caught stealing electricity and harboring some of the dealers from the crack house. They got evicted. One other the other houses calmed down after the wife got arrested for prostitution and the husband kicked her out and moved off with the kids. The last house is going to get quiet next week because my landlord has arranged to buy the house.

It takes some time, the ability to work with your neighbors, and the ability to not listen to the freaks and twits who tell you to mind your own buisness because they dont want the authorities looking too closely at their activities. You can make a difference though.