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FLA2760
February 8, 2007, 01:38 AM
This is from the 1911 board.

This guy got the drop on him. My take is situational awareness was lacking.

I can't believe it! I got robbed today!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all my training, practice, vigilance and making a point of ALWAYS being armed... some 20something gangbanger punk in baggy clothes got me!

I write my experience so that I may learn how to protect myself in the future and also to let others know never to let your guard down!

I was robbed at gunpoint in broad daylight today at my storage facility in my neighborhood.

I was working on a deck I am building in my backyard. I am almost finished and I loaded up my truck with the tools and stuff I don't need anymore (shovels, sledge hammer, chopsaw, fold up saw horses etc.) and I head over to my neighborhood staorage facility where I have had a storage bin for a few years because I don't like the clutter at my house. Mostly tools, camping stuff, bikes stuff like that.

It is a big warehouse building witha bunch of roll up doors all around it. Inside it is filled with individual storage lockers. Mine is right by a door so I back in and I unlock my storage door and I am taking stuff out of my truck and carrying it in my locker. It is about 3:30pm and no one around.

I carry in a load and when I come out a young punk is standing there with a ski mask on, black baggy panys, black baggy coat and it actually takes me a few seconds to realize he has a 9mm black Glock pointed right at my chest.

I put my hands up and say "be cool bro" and at that he says "give it up" and I say "be cool" again at this point he starts getting all excited and cursing and say stuff like "you think I'm playing %$#@&"

I pull out my wallet and say this is all I have. He snatches it with the gun pointing at my face now.

Now I would like to point out that I am never unarmed and because I was working in my backyard I had sweat pants on and sweatshirt and hooded zip up jacket and I had my Kel-Tec .380 in a pocket holster in my right front pocket.

He is about about 3 feet from me with the gun now pointed at my chest. For one second I contemplated knocking his arm away and rushing him but you know what... when the gun is aimed at you it's a whole different story.

I decided not to chance it and I was studying what he was wearing and I thought that if he missed my .380 maybe I could pull it when he turned to run or so I thought. All this was going through my mind in one second.

The punk them says turn around and then thats when I started to get nervous. He said what else do you got and I said thats it and I felt the gun poked in my right back just over my kidney. I was thinking that would be a real bad place to be shot. He reached in my pocket and pulled out my .380 and my freakin keys and he started to get real excited again and said "oh so you gonna smoke me?"

He started cursing something and then he pushed me and told me to start walking towards the back of the warehouse and I thought oh %$% the punk is going to shot me in the back of the building.

I said "come on man be cool don't do something we're gonna regret"

He said start walking and pushe me down to long walkway with the closest corner to turn about 15 feet down the hall. He said to me to keep walking and count to 30 and if I turned around he would shoot me.

Well I took off and turned the first corner I got to. I stopped and hugged the wall and listened I didn't hear anything. I peeped around the corner and half expected the punk to be still standing there aiming at me. I nervously walk up the hall and peered out into the main area where the door was and my truck is parked. He was not there. I ran to the door and looked out and I could not see anyone up or down the street.

Thats was it! It was over with in 5 minutes. I was filled with so much rage. I would have emptied a full magazine into that punk if I could had caught him which was a futile because this kid was gone.

I didn't know which direction he went in, I didn't even know if he had a buddy sitting outside in a car.

I called 911 and they said they would send a car over and they did... 20 minutes later a squad car shows up.

I called my sister who had an extra truck key of mine. I called the bank and put a stop on my credit cards.

I am still mad about it but the storage manager and the LEO said that the important think is the punk didn't shoot me in the back.

I keep thinking back today. There was nothing I could do at the time. I really wasn't frozen with fear or anything but I did shake a little a few hours later.

I wish somehow I could have done something. He got keys to everything I own including two vehicles and my wallet with every scrap of ID I have.

The LEO's said that 99% of the time the robbers get around the corner and grab the cash (I had $400.00 in my wallet just cashed a check!) and they toss the wallet or purse down the sewer or up on a building. If you are lucky it might get tossed on a street and some good samaritan will return it but not usually. The LEO said he took my keys so I couldn't follow him.

But they said I could change my house locks and buy a couple of steering wheel locks to give ME some comfort.

I've got a lot of thinking to do. One thing I learned is I need am extra key stashed somewhere in my truck and car that I could use in an emergency. I did have am emergency key... it was in my wallet.

I am wondering if I had another gun in my truck too would that have helped. If I had a key I could have circled the block right after the robbery and maybe caught sight of the punk!

I don't think I will ever carry another pocket pistol. If I had a shoulder or ankle holster this guy would have missed it, then at least I would have had some sort of weapon.... but again it would have been AFTER the crime.

I could keep a better eye out but this guy snuck up on my. I literally did not see him until he was standing in front of me and even then it took a good 4 seconds before I even noticed he had a gun which is really weird because I would have thought I would notice that quick.

My family keeps telling me that they don't care about the money and wallet and there just glad I wasn't shot.

The LEO and storage manager said they have never heard of a robbery where I was robbed at and that it is generally considered a pretty safe part of town. The LEO thinks it was just a crime of opportunity.

Anybody got any ideas on this scenario? I swear I am going to do some heavy thinking and planning so that this never happens to me again.

I am 48 and I have never in my life been robbed at gunpoint like that. And it's funny because I read about this all the time and I have the same feeling that a lot of victims have... I just can't believe it happened to me.

One thing is for sure.. if I have to lose a gun I'd rather lose my Kel-tec .380 than my Springfield Mil_Spec which is what I usually carry.

I guess tomorrow I get to start getting all my ID's agiain. I don't even have a drivers license and I have to reapply for the CCW again!
__________

685cmj
February 8, 2007, 07:16 AM
Hopefully it is utterly clear to everyone that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is no magic cure for everything. The time may well come for any of us when prudent thinking keeps us from drawing and starting some kind of firefight, either for the sake of our own lives or of bystanders or.... I always worry about the Rambos who watch too much TV and think a gun is the answer to every question.

Anon
February 8, 2007, 08:11 AM
I hate to break it to folks here, but having a concealed handgun prepares you for such a tiny number of possible situations, that it is almost worthless to do so.

There are SO many other things you can do to extend your life and the safety of yourself and family.

That said, if you need the pistol (and can actually employ it), you'll be glad you had one....

Smokin Joe
February 8, 2007, 09:57 AM
Having a gun dont mean you win. it just means you can play.

He had the drop on the guy, thats a great advantage where if the guy chose to shoot back, he could, but they both will be hurt bad or dead.

that being said, I would have just gave him everything I had INCLUDING the kel tec.

Fxtrt5
February 8, 2007, 10:02 AM
Methinks you aren't giving yourself enough credit. From what I read there, you were thinking all the way through; and that is admirable. You noted details, attire, considered escape options, evaluated changing circumstance....doesn't get any better than that.
The law-abiding citizen in this country is at a distinct disadvantage from the social parasites. You can't go through life jumping at shadows, and as we get older, we gradually lose the "Big Quick"...The criminal has the luxury of picking time, place, intent, numbers, and weapon. You have only reaction, and in my opinion, you did just fine. The punk ain't going to make it in life...period....$400 is only a couple days of crack or meth....but you, my friend, are going to stand tall......The memory will never go away, it will always be a sore point, but, you carried yourself well.

"Gentlemen; may I remind you that if you allow yourself to be killed, you will be subsequently court-martialed for the destruction of Government Property"

Syntax360
February 8, 2007, 10:15 AM
I hate to break it to folks here, but having a concealed handgun prepares you for such a tiny number of possible situations, that it is almost worthless to do so.

Yep - sometimes you are screwed no matter what. Still, I'd rather have the option to defend myself if the opportunity presented itself. I'm glad everything worked out for the guy and he didn't get hurt. Can't win them all... sounds like he did a good job with the situation, all things considered.

pax
February 8, 2007, 10:26 AM
Depending on the mercy of the merciless is a bad plan, even if it worked out okay this time.

At the moment the criminal told him to turn around, it was all over. I think he should have fought at that point.

My lines in the sand: http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/Boundaries.htm

What are yours?

pax

markj
February 8, 2007, 10:29 AM
when the gun is aimed at you it's a whole different story.


Now aint that the truth? I got shot in the left shoulder blade, it hurts.
Glad you got out of that alive, only way to prevent this is go to the locker with a friend to keep an eye out.

I had my storage locker broke into and my stuff removed, it was supposed to be a "secure facility" with a key pad etc. I no longer use one but put a shed on my place and keep my stuff there now.

westphoenix
February 8, 2007, 10:41 AM
Pax I know its easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but I agree with you.
Once he told me to turn around and knowing I still had a firearm on me, I would like to think I would have taken action. One thing I have told my girlfriend and my sister is go for the eyes!

MikeGoob
February 8, 2007, 12:14 PM
my CCW instructor said to throw your wallet behind the mugger. Its hard to tell how that would work in this situation.

Fxtrt5
February 8, 2007, 12:37 PM
At the moment the criminal told him to turn around, it was all over. I think he should have fought at that point.

My lines in the sand....(Pax)

......(sigh)....big, big difference from "thinking" and "being there"...."Fought" is vague...you mean break out the Ubiwaza Touch of Doom? Whip around and apply the Vulcan Death Grip? Steven Segal does it all the time.....so why can't some guy with a real gun in his kidney? Over $400 and some plastic?
As a one-time professional, I don't think much of the line-in-the-sand provocation....as without foundation as the sand itself. Ill-advised action is worse than no action. Be patient, nothing's guaranteed....wait 'till it's your turn to move.....like the victim here....when he got his chance, he escaped and took up a defensive position with good field-of-view. What more do you want?

Apropos of Nothing: A chip on the shoulder makes a great target, eh?

westphoenix
February 8, 2007, 12:43 PM
......(sigh)....big, big difference from "thinking" and "being there"...."Fought" is vague...you mean break out the Ubiwaza Touch of Doom? Whip around and apply the Vulcan Death Grip? Steven Segal does it all the time.....so why can't some guy with a real gun in his kidney? Over $400 and some plastic?
As a one-time professional, I don't think much of the line-in-the-sand provocation....as without foundation as the sand itself.

I think its clear he would be fighting for his life at that point and not the $400 and pistol. Theres a point at which the demands of the assailant become more likely to result in the victims death.

If the assailant said "ok now I'm going to kill you", would you fight then?
Because some of us think that "turn around", is like saying: "ok now I'm going to execute you".

MikeGoob
February 8, 2007, 12:44 PM
my friend was in a restaurant when the whole place was mugged. The gunmen put everyone in the kitchen (after emptying their pockets) and emptied the cash register then left. Everyone was fine. Its hard to KNOW what to do :confused:

markj
February 8, 2007, 01:00 PM
Vince said:

What's the point of carrying a gun if you're too scared and too undertrained to use it?

Come on over and show me how to disarm a guy with a loaded gun pointed at you.

You will of course need to sign a waiver in case the weapon goes off and disables you.

There are places you can pay to learn how this is done, but how many civies get to go to this type of class?

G. Gordon Liddy once had a school for this type of training.

My bro in law, ret. A/F ex Secret Service guy for the first bush admin says your chances of removing a weapon in this fashion that is just out of reach is slim to none, specially if you are facing away and it is in the back. If he is facing you and is within reach you have a slim chance but it is better than the other scenario.

When I was shot, he was behind me about 5 ft away. Now tell me how I could have avoided this.

W.C. Fields sure said a mouthful.....

mikejonestkd
February 8, 2007, 01:08 PM
Disabling an assailant when he is some distance from you AND already has the drop on you is certain to end poorly for you.

I am glad that the OP got out alive.

And there is no fault with a victim's training, I have a good friend that practiced the martial arts for 20+ years. The one time he was attacked they came up from behind and dropped him with a blow to the head from a pipe. Even the best training can fail on a regular basis.

tydephan
February 8, 2007, 01:37 PM
The LEO's said that 99% of the time the robbers get around the corner and grab the cash (I had $400.00 in my wallet just cashed a check!)

It is worth noting...I think...that perhaps this guy was followed from the bank (or wherever he cashed his check) and pegged as a low-risk high-reward victim.

This just reminds us that we always need to be aware of our surroundings, no matter if we are armed or not.

In a situation like this, a concealed handgun actually becomes a big liability if the bad guy has the drop on you and you are not going to "resist." I can't think of much worse than being killed with a weapon that I brought to the fight.

I'm not saying the guy was clueless or anything like that, but he did place himself in a vulnerable position. I'm glad he was not injured or executed.

pax
February 8, 2007, 01:39 PM
Fxtrt5 ~

westphoenix's post explains the why. Turning your back when the guy with the gun tells you to turn around is, very often, the prelude to getting shot in the back of the skull. Dave Grossman's book On Killing explains the psychology which often drives the killer to demand that the victim's back is turned before pulling the trigger; worth a read if you can stomach it.

As for the how, I admit that I am an out of shape, middle aged housewife. But barring the most disastrous kind of bad luck, if you are within arm's reach and pointing a gun at me, I can take it away from you before you can shoot me. I know in my guts I can do this because I have had the training to do it, against guys bigger and stronger and younger and more macho than I could ever hope to be. The tecnhiques are not based on strength, but on leverage (and a few other things). I regularly practice with dummy guns, and have done it several times with Code Eagle (Simunitions-type) guns so that I know I can do it if I need to against guys who are fully resisting and intend to pull the trigger the second they believe I am fighting back.

Since I know that I can if I need to, the question becomes, "Do I need to, in this instance?" My answer, for myself and not for the less-trained, is that I won't turn my back if a man with a gun demands I do so. I will fight, right then and there, even if I don't like the odds of fighting. And I say that because I think the odds of getting shot in the back are considerably higher than the odds of the disastrous bad luck I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

If this means I have a chip on my shoulder, so be it. The training is available to anyone who is willing to work for it, not just to super-secret squirrel ninjas. If this middle-aged housewife can do it, so can you.

markj, mikejonestkd ~

The victim reported that the BG was close enough to snatch the wallet, and that he (later) felt the gun poking into his back. This type of training would have helped in the situation we're discussing, which is a gun that is unquestionably within arm's reach.

pax

Capt Charlie
February 8, 2007, 01:48 PM
While every situation is unique and needs to be evaluated as such, I have to agree with fighting at the point I'm told to "turn around".

Criminals have changed. It used to be they were only interested in your money and getting away. Today's breed seem to have more sadistic tendencies, and enjoy hurting people. You're much more likely to get shot or cut today, whether or not you cooperate.

"Turn around" sends me the same message as "get on your knees". As Pax said, it's a prelude to a bullet in the head. At that point, it's either fight or die.

Samurai
February 8, 2007, 03:00 PM
Having never been in any type of combat situation whatsoever, I don't really have a lot of intelligent thought to add here.

All I will say is, as a general observation, if the mugger is going to shoot you, then there's no amount of "compliance" with his demands that will change his mind. Likewise, if the mugger is out for cash only, it seems to me like they aren't going to have the "stones" to shoot anyway, and will run away at the first sign of aggression or resistance.

The problem is, deciding which one you've got... But, either way, I say fight. Either you'll win, or you'll simply realize that you were already dead all along. And, NEVER, no NEVER turn your back or allow yourself to be relocated. Ever. Statistics do indicate that doing either of these things dramatically increases your chances of being killed.

Fxtrt5
February 8, 2007, 03:15 PM
Despite the theater, the facts as I understood them are: Assailant already knew victim had gun. Victim's gun is not accessible, and even if it were, it would require some preparation; assuming safety is on, weapon in clothing, and basically not ready. To claim to be capable of overpowering means nothing....At point blank range, with an assailant already over-amping on adrenaline, and knowing the victim is armed....the slightest misunderstanding results in tragedy. Look at the facts......victim survived, losing only material objects. No need for "squirrel ninja".....Your way, someone guaranteed to get hurt.....(Shrugs dismissively) Better think about the future....these punks aren't that smart, and might behoove you to watch carefully next time you're in that area.

Thanks, but I think I'll decline your kind offer of taking a course in accosting middle-age housewives......not my style

markj
February 8, 2007, 03:21 PM
This type of training would have helped in the situation we're discussing

Not everyone has this level of training, where did you get this? I stated my bro in law is former SS, now he does have this training and I for one would not attempt it with him.

If it was me? as I posted before when I did turn my back on a guy I escourted out of the bar he shot me. I do not turn my back on anyone anymore and would fight back if I thought I was going to be shot.

I was not there, it wasnt me so all I can say is I am glad he didnt get shot.

Now if I had a gun on anyone I for sure would remain just out of reach :)
I did have some of those G Gordon Liddy training tapes at one time, they focused on unarming a person and taking them down in one move. Never had to try it tho. Now I am getting old and really need to practise more, just waiting for my son to get big enough so we can play :) My daughter is in collage now so I have no play partner as my wife cares not for the rough and tumble.

I sure wont tell this guy he acted poorly etc as some have done.
This is just bad taste and rude.

tydephan
February 8, 2007, 03:24 PM
these punks aren't that smart, and might behoove you to watch carefully next time you're in that area.

Nor are they full of mercy...

marlboroman84
February 8, 2007, 05:05 PM
Don't carry a gun if you're not prepared to use it and don't think it's a cure all. Train not only with your gun, but train in a martial art as well. I agree with Pax wholeheartedly. You touch me with your gun, guess what? It's my gun now. I don't play nice and I am a dirty fighter. You should be as well.

I'm also surprised that no one has commented on the fact the guy in the OP said he was gonna follow the BG if he had an extra key and more or less said if he found him he'd shoot him. Not good things to be saying.

While it is easy for people to Monday morning quaterback, I'm telling you this. The only reason I've never had to shoot anyone is because I stopped the confrontation by other means. Training is the key. Without training you're just another guy with a gun.

westphoenix
February 8, 2007, 05:39 PM
the facts as I understood them are: Assailant already knew victim had gun.

Maybe I read it wrong, but I didn't think the assailant knew about the gun until he pulled it out of the victims pocket.

azredhawk44
February 8, 2007, 07:25 PM
It is a big warehouse building witha bunch of roll up doors all around it. Inside it is filled with individual storage lockers. Mine is right by a door so I back in and I unlock my storage door and I am taking stuff out of my truck and carrying it in my locker. It is about 3:30pm and no one around.

I carry in a load and when I come out a young punk is standing there with a ski mask on, black baggy panys, black baggy coat and it actually takes me a few seconds to realize he has a 9mm black Glock pointed right at my chest.

OP states that the gun was a "9mm black Glock".

Duh, all glocks are black except for very limited runs of camo-framed ones, and one of these dark green frames with a black slide will just look black to someone who's eyes are still adjusting from coming out of a warehouse into sunlight.

And knowing it was 9mm? Can you tell the difference between a 9mm, a .40, a 10mm or a .45acp under duress, when the barrel is black and the slide is black and the hole in the barrel is black and you just came out into the sunlight from a dark warehouse, and some guy with a SKIMASK is demanding your money?

I call troll-post. Maybe not necessarily FLA2760, but by the guy who posted it on the original 1911 forum he got it from.

The supposed victim here was standing next to a vehicle that would make a great bullet shield, giving him time to draw his own weapon and fire shots causing the perp to surrender or flee since shooting someone in the back is most often illegal.

Haterade
February 8, 2007, 09:58 PM
It's so easy to armchair quarterback, but that sounds like a scary situation for sure. All the training in the world could get lost in the moment when someone has a pistol pointed at your chest.

I'd like to think I'd begin with a stare-down, then I'd watch the look on his face as I snap kick the perp in his gun-hand, draw my Kimber, do a perfect Mozambique on him and catch his gun in mid-air as I reholstered my weapon.

More likely than not I would probably do the same thing this guy did! One more case for situational awareness I guess... but anyone can get caught off guard and yes, walking away is actually a victory. The situation sucks, but I would rather get some internet ribbing than live the rest of my life in a wheelchair or something.

pax
February 8, 2007, 11:52 PM
Not everyone has this level of training, where did you get this?

Mark, I took my first handguns retentions & disarms class from the Firearms Academy of Seattle (www.firearmsacademy.com) several years ago. At the time, the cost was around $100 for a one-day class, with a free retake. I took the free retake a couple months later and, well, needed it. The initial training left me fuzzy, but the retake kind of tamped it down. Then I practiced with a dojo buddy of mine quite a bit to make sure the learning would stay there.

A year or two after that, I took an advanced disarms class, again from FAS. This one took the basic disarms and then explored the topic a bit more. That class was my first experience using Code Eagle guns during this type of training. Very intense and very worthwhile, because even though by that time I knew I could get the guy away there was still that doubt about whether it would be fast enough, good enough, etc to avoid getting shot. What I learned was that YES, this is very doable even for -- as I said -- an out of shape housewife half the height of everyone else in the class. One fellow student caught a paintball round when he telegraphed that he was about to move, but everyone else made it every single time. It is doable!

And then a couple years ago, I took LFI-2. Handgun disarms are an integral part of that 5-day course. LFI-2 provided some alternative choices, and some of the specific moves were slightly different than I'd already learned, but not significantly so -- and the underlying principles were the same.

In between all of those, my buddies and I have practiced regularly with dummy guns, speeding it up and improvising and sometimes role-playing. Wonderful, marvelous to have that kind of friend to practice with.

All the above classes were based on the Lindell system. Not sure where you can get the training in Ohio, but I'm sure it is out there. If nothing else, you can wait for Ayoob to come through town and catch it from him in LFI-2.

pax

Baba Louie
February 9, 2007, 10:49 AM
OK, if this ever does happen to you (happened to my daughter her senior year of H.S.), and all the actual tactical (meaning hands on) stuff aside for a moment; BG has your ID and your keys, maybe even your cell phone, leaving you temporarily incommunicado... your house and everyone/thing inside is now vulnerable should BG be evil (and wise) enough to utilize a small window of opportunity.

Disarm only works if he's close enough.
Swift movement (towards cover? out of the hole laterally?) might work. Acting like you're reaching for your wallet and coming out with your CCW will end up (more than likely) in a shooting situation (why do you carry and how much do you practice?)

Our CCW instructor (an LFI grad among other shooting schools) carried a folded, stapled shut $20 bill in a moneyclip for throwdown purposes (toss to ground towards his gunhand side a few steps away from him) which MIGHT buy you a second or two when he steps over to lean down picking it up with his non-gun hand. MIGHT!

Then it's decision time.

(I asked instructor why stapled shut $ in a moneyclip... for ID purposes as few people staple their money shut... in case the Cops grab him soon thereafter)

So whether this particular story is true or not, this is why we practice and go over "what if" scenarios in our minds. Does the "startle" (what a word) of someone or something unexpected shut down our system for a second or three to diagnose threat or does it cause us to act immediately into an affirmative defensive posture? Each situation is different. As is each person's response. Being a lone victim is one thing (and bad enough). Protecting family and home another. State law may require retreat (in public) or may allow standing your ground... don't know from the story and don't care, but you do need to know.

Good thread. Get more training. Train hard with a purpose. Whats your "Assess situation/move/draw/shoot time?" Mine's too slow for my own comfort.

Carlo
February 9, 2007, 12:35 PM
Pax wrote: My lines in the sand: http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/Boundaries.htm

Hello,
what you write there makes perfect sense o me.
Certainly it takes a bit of determination to say yourself, at that very moment, "Ok, this my last chance, waiting would just bring me in something worse".
It is a real pity that the guy had already finished putting away his stuff, since he mentioned a shovel and a shovel in the hands could end it faster than a pistol in the pocket. If I was in his place, I'd leave one selected tool unpacked in such cases.

Carlo

Fxtrt5
February 9, 2007, 01:11 PM
(thoughtfully) Only about hmmm....I'm guessing 150? Guys out here in the west US able to pull off that frontal take-away maneuver of pivot, both arms straight, and scissor the gun-arm in that nano-second you have before discharge. And, the perp would have to be within inches. Karate guys, no....but some of the judo guys, yeah....The fight-in-the-phone-booth types.....those Akido guys can be pretty sneaky. But, man, you'd have to be fast; all reflex...start the instant command was given to move, thus disguising intent. If you had to think about it, forget it. And facing away? Now you can't gauge distance or feint the eyes.
My original intent was to offer support to the victim here....."OK, so you got outmaneuvered, but you did the best you could". Suprising and contrary was the popular bemoaning of a lost opportunity to open a can of whup-ass on someone. That to me was competition to see who could whistle the loudest through the graveyard of life...The patronizing lecture on technique was amusing. But not informative. Full tour; two unit citations, one presidential citation, one purple heart, one commendation, three campaign ribbons, one "expert" with device....lot of rack there for a first-term E-4 and all before age 21. But, then again, I am not law enforcement, nor am I any judge of civilian situations. Indeed, in a way, I envy you; there were times when I would have preferred your daydreams over my nightmares, but all that is water under the bridge. If this is "tactical advice" you like, then so be it......but, there is a fear of darkness, isn't there? "Black attire", black things that go bump in the night....No actual moves, but a lot of "If it'd been me...." but not many nouns....

"....the thief, the vagabond, the priest, the soldier, the traveler-by-night...they do not fear the dark, nor what may come upon them in the darkness....for they of the night; a part of it......"

faster200
February 9, 2007, 04:31 PM
As a member of 1911forum.com, I remember when this guy posted this, and remember reading the follow-up he posted.

The 1911forum members were happy that he didn't get hurt. They didn't critique him at all. In fact, most of us agreed (those who don't have military or CQ training) that if it were us, we'd have done the same. Most of us took this lesson to heart. I know I have.

I can't be on guard and suspect danger at every corner. I just don't have the energy. I do my best as situations and enviroments dictate as I see them.

My friend, who is also a 1911forum member, and I did a test. I have 2 airsoft guns. Nice pistols that shoot about 250 fps. A 1911 model and a Glock. They hurt like crazy at close range, and I usually use them to shoo off the possums in the backyard. He and I set up an area in my garage similar to the enviroment discribed in the storage unit. We traded places being the BG and the subject. We used regular street clothes, and paintball masks to protect from errant shots.

Now both of us are young, and in good shape, having fast reflexes and decent shots with real firearms. Neither of us could out draw or knock the aggressors weapon before a shot was fired. We did get a bunch of red welts on our chests and kidney areas.

I understand that we are not combat experts, but then again, neither are the BG or the subject in the post. I have adjusted my habits since reading this. I tend to be more observant in areas that I let my guard drop. I guess I'll never be as fast or as observant as some of the posters here. Maybe I'll pay for that someday. I sure hope not.

markj
February 9, 2007, 04:45 PM
PAX, why all the training? The stuff I mentioned was from a school G. Gordon Liddy put together for bodyguard training, it ran a week or two and you got tapes for home viewing. It included limo evasive stuff, unarmed combat, dis arming manuvers etc.

Hard to say what will happen in any situation until it happens but if you forget the self and let training take over if you had it, you may come out on top, you may not it is a risk type thing.

I am glad he came out of it OK.

Carlo
February 9, 2007, 05:38 PM
faster200 wrote: The 1911forum members were happy that he didn't get hurt. They didn't critique him at all.

I agree. I don't think he's to be criticized at all, yet Pax is darn right: "Turn and go that way", no way, unless you've the reasonable presumption that your assailant is not the kind of individual that is not happy with just taking away your money. I think, in such a situation, men may perceive less menace than women, because we don't have that something else the criminal may be interested in (generally speaking). I cannot make comments on the basis of a massive experience, but, once, I had to confront a knife with a book, this taught me that odds don't determine outcomes. Wether odds in disfavour are to be challenged is another matter entirely, I had to, this guy felt he didn't and the outcome supports his choice, in the end. Probably, at some point, his instict suggested him his assailant's intentions weren't to inflict him harm.

odessastraight
February 9, 2007, 06:54 PM
So yet another goblin gets rewarded for his criminal, anti-social behavior. Any study of behavior will teach that a behavior that is reinforced (rewarded) will maintain or increase that behavior. Behaviors that are punished reduce or stop those behaviors. We need to take our communities back from the goblins. I see it as a duty to society not to give in to these thugs. No, I wouldn't fight as long as the goblin had me at gunpoint, pointblank, but I'd be looking for any edge to give me a fighting chance to stop his anti-social behavior. The "stop" I meant in that last sentence wasn't by the administration of just punishment, but rather by the swift application of a hot .357 load to COM... Of course, it it happened to punish the goblin, too, so be it.

The above situation is similar to military training to overcome an ambush. When ambushed you can't freeze up or just lie down in the beaten zone...you go on the offence to survive. Yeaaaaah, at least condition yellow most of the time...or I like to think of it as being spring loaded in the PO position. Don't cower in the face of these thugs. Do yourself and all decent folks a favor and end that goblin's anti-social behavior.

pax
February 9, 2007, 08:32 PM
PAX, why all the training?

Well, originally I took the disarms class because I wanted to know how to safely remove a firearm from a child's hand if necessary (I have five well-behaved kids, and keep my guns secured; yet all well-behaved kids have less well-behaved friends, and even Homer nods). Although it wasn't a factor at the time, I have found the training to be very reassuring to have in my capacity as a firearms instructor; if a gun needs to be grabbed out of the hand of someone having a seizure or something, I now know how to do it as safely as possible.

After taking the first class, I realized that the skills would require regular practice (thus, the range buddies I can rassle with), and I also realized that it would be a good idea to take a brush-up class every year or two just to be sure we were still practicing the right things. After a few repetitions of the basic class, it seemed time to check out the advanced class, and, as I said, that gave me the opportunity to work with the Code Eagle guns.

Then, too, the disarms are simply one component of LFI-2. I did not take the class specifically for the disarms, but I was happy they were being taught in that class, especially since the course was taught by someone other than my usual instructors and usual school. Always good to get a fresh viewpoint!

So you see, it wasn't as if I set out to do all of this all at once. I simply ... took the next class. :)



The 1911forum members were happy that he didn't get hurt. They didn't critique him at all. In fact, most of us agreed (those who don't have military or CQ training) that if it were us, we'd have done the same. Most of us took this lesson to heart. I know I have.


I, too, am very happy the guy did not get hurt or killed when he turned his back on an armed criminal. It is good you got a lesson out of the man's frightening experience. It would be very depressing indeed if no one could ever learn from anyone else's experiences, either positive or negative.

As you say, no one can stay 100% alert for 100% of the day. I agree! There is a certain level of basic alertness it is good to strive for, but anyone who thinks he absolutely achieves that level is really just fooling himself. No one is perfect. So then the next question is, "When my alertness fails, and I am at a disadvantage to a criminal, what shall I do?"

My personal answer to that is and have been that I will cooperate, give the guy my money, my keys, whatever, and I will do what he says right up until it is obvious that I will be killed even if I continue to cooperate. For me, having done the research and studied how these things often play out, being commanded to turn my back on a man with a gun within arm's reach is one of the specific decision points which would spur me to action.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I'm sorry but that's where my lines are. There's no particular posturing here, and I don't particularly care if you decide to fight back or not. But I decided a long time ago that if I ever died from criminal violence, I would die on my feet, head up and trying.

What you and your friend discovered in the garage is that it is just about impossible to get a gun away from someone without getting shot ... unless you know how to do it. Speed isn't enough, strength isn't enough, sneakiness isn't enough. You have to know the techniques.

pax

Snow Fox
February 9, 2007, 09:51 PM
The only thing I can think of that could be considered doing wrong was going with him when he wanted you to walk somewhere. Maybe it's somethnig that is more ground into women but if you go somewhere withsomeone, you're in a lot more trouble.
The best thing, we're told, is htrow your bag in direction A and run screaming in direction B (A plan worked out by a man who never had to run in heels) the punk will have a choice between crazy lady making noise and drawing attention or potential loot just sitting there being quiet.

bigghoss
February 9, 2007, 10:36 PM
mikegoob brought it up already and I agree. throw your wallet or keep your cash in a WHEIGHTED money clip. throw it behind him and run the other way, or if your cornered MAYBE this will give you the chance to draw your wepon.

I like the money clip because if you get away you still have credit cards and IDs. and you don't have to keep all your cash in it. he's not going to notice if it's $8 in singles or $200 untill he actually picks it up, hopefully.

Leafs
February 27, 2007, 04:05 PM
A guy I work with had the same thing happen to him at his appartment complex. He took out his wallet and pretending to be trembling knelt down with a hand over his head and said 'don't hurt me man' and kind of tossed his wallet to the side. When the BG reached for the wallet he pulled his pistol and emptied the mag but only hit him twice.

The kid (17) survived, went to juvie after he got out of the hospital, spent a couple more years in jail and got out. A couple months after he got out his gang was suspected of holding up illegals in the area (lots of illegals in Memphis). Him and his gangbanger friend tried to rob a bunch of Mexicans having a BBQ one friday night. My neighbor who is a LEO is Mexican and works in this area because he's bilingual. Well, the Mexicans were able to disarm the guy and were throwing a rope up over the branch of a tree that was around the punks neck. My neighbor got there just in time and said he never ever seen a gangbanger so happy to admit an aggravated robbery charge.

johnnymenudo
March 1, 2007, 01:57 PM
I don't want to be offensive, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you have to be very aware of what is going on around you at all times. If you are unable to do this, then you should leave the firearm at home. I know that even with the best intentions people do let their guard down or get preoccupied, but you simply cannot afford to do this if you are carrying a gun. Otherwise, as in this case, you are a source of free weapons for criminals.

JM

westphoenix
March 1, 2007, 05:02 PM
I don't want to be offensive, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you have to be very aware of what is going on around you at all times. If you are unable to do this, then you should leave the firearm at home. I know that even with the best intentions people do let their guard down or get preoccupied, but you simply cannot afford to do this if you are carrying a gun. Otherwise, as in this case, you are a source of free weapons for criminals.

JM

I agree with you to a point, but I think it's impossible for someone to be aware of everything around them all the time. It's just not possible. Everyone lets their guard down at some time. I'm pretty good at paying attention to my surroundings, but I still miss things or don't notice things that someone else noticed.

In this situation (probably the most common) a pistol in the wallet pocket would have been a better idea than a pistol in the front pocket or on the waist. Someone can come out of the woodwork with a pistol pointed at you at any time no matter how well you pay attention. You can pay attention all you want, but if you are not prepared for different scenarios you are still screwed. This includes the firearm(s) you carry, how/where you carry it, and how well you can use it.

Kas
March 1, 2007, 11:22 PM
I carry my 380 Keltec in my front pants pocket,most guys are not as likely to be reaching in there(Slower yes,but more secure).I also carry folding knife (on belt) small Pepper/CS spray in shirt pocket,and larger gun(.38/9mm),when going to risker areas,Am I "Paranoid"??? I knew a man who survived getting shot up in Vietnam,only to be managing a pizza hut Norman OK.)Robbers came in and had him and the other employees lay down in the back (cooler).None got back up!That was probably around 30 years ago,and i am getting very upset just relating this!He had been taking his .357 Ruger to work,but owner told him, that was not acceptable!I also worked at a state juvenile institution(medium security part).A inmate I had under my direct supervision(initially),escaped from another staff member while on a pass.He and another "graduate"(aged out/18 years old) of that "fine institution"(Rader/Sand Springs,OK.)robbed/kidnapped(with a toy gun/supposedly) a man and woman as they got off work at restaurant (Tulsa,OK.) They made the couple get in the trunk of one the victims and then drove that car and other victim' s truck to outside an outlying town (Sapulpa).Disconnected gas line at the tank set it on fire,will leave it to your imagination as to the results!(no happy ending)They then took the other victim's pickup on a crime spree to Wichita KS. and back to Tulsa, robbing/raping women,and at least in one instance,when back in OK.tried to kill one with a hammer.After about 2 weeks caught them,still driving that pickup in Tulsa area.Finally after trial,retrial appeals,(11-12yrs.) executed the one I knew:) The other....'s death penalty was over turned because he is"retarded".He played the jury in his last trial.He just sit and stare/not move etc. then talk to family and act normal when the jury was out.:barf: This thread is a wakeup call,for me to be more aware,get more training armed/unarmed.Trunks,laying down,kneeling,turning around,being marched/driving to a more remote area,For ME,are Not viable options. I am very glad that the man in this thread only lost things!

foob
March 6, 2007, 02:06 AM
Just a small point.

If I thought he was going to shoot me, I wouldn't try and wrestle the gun. The chance of succeeding is really really low. I would start running zig zag whatever random pattern while trying to create distance, turn a corner and draw, I can't imagine the perp is a IPSC or IDPA master who can easily target a fast moving target.

Probably best way would be to toss the wallet and start running. Good chance the perp will go for the wallet instead of me.

Edit: Oops 2 people have mentioned doing the same already.

punkkin
March 6, 2007, 02:25 AM
when the gun is aimed at you it's a whole different story.

That's the key. He got out alive and that's what's important.

Sgt.Fathead
March 6, 2007, 02:40 AM
Good Points and Bad Points all around there.

Bad Points are likely; Wallet and keys gone, perp has your ID and knows your location, banking, etc. lots of locks to change, new keys for the truck and such. The pistol is now gone, in the hands of the perp, Lord knows what he'll do with that. That's bad, for sure. Big hassle getting new ID and credit cards. Very scary situation, no doubt about that. I was mugged twice myself. The first time, the guy even took my shoes! The investigating P.O. thought that was pretty shrewd, possibly to slow any pursuit. I say he liked the look of my new Bostonian cordovan wingtips!

Good Points; The victim is not dead. He is not physically injured. He has learned a valuable lesson and will take it with him through the rest of his days. Ever vigilant, ever wary. Me, I'd feel like moving. There is no concealed carry here in NJ for private citizens. We avoid certain areas, we keep the scattergun ready at home. A healthy level of paranoia.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda my Gunny used to say. It happened, we did what we did and we go on.

stephen426
March 6, 2007, 03:50 AM
When it comes to life and death situations, it is damn near impossible to ever know the right response. Provoking the attacker by fighting back may cause him to shoot and kill you when he would have taken the money and left. Not fighting back may lead to him killing you anyways. The problem is that, right or wrong, you need to make a decision, and once made, you must be decisive. Failure to make a decision leaves the bad guy 100% in control and you are living at his mercy.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm the kind of guy that would like to go down swinging... not simply watching the third strike go whizzing by. I say bravo on Pax for investing her time and money in training. Hey, its your life. Are YOU worth it? While it may never even the playing field, it does tip it some in your favor, especially if the bad guy presents an opportunity by making a mistake.

For me, I would stick to simple yet effective techniques. The most important thing is to feign compliance and not telegraph your intentions of fighting back. The first move is to get out of the line of fire and to sweep the gun away or try to control the gun hand (much easier to sweep than to control). The second step would be a full powered strike with one of the following: palm to the nose, snap kick between the legs, or a punch to the throat. All are sensitive areas no matter how tough the attacker is. No sense in fighting fair if he has a gun on you. I would then draw my own weapon and fire if the bad guy did not drop his weapon. DO NOT GET INTO AN EXTENDED PHYSICAL FIGHT WITH AN UNKNOWN ATTACKER!!! Martial arts training or not, you should never under-estimate your attacker. If the attacker dropped the weapon, I would either kick it away or pick it up (depending on the condition of the attacker). Then be sure to create some distance between you and your attacker. The best thing to do after that is get out of Dodge, provided you can do so safely and do not need to defend others. If the attack occurs in my home, I would call the cops and hold the guy at gun point. If the leaves, so be it. If he takes a step towards me, I fire.

Of course the best situation is to never get into these kinds of "at bat with 2 strikes" situations. You need to properly assess whether you are facing 0, 1, or 2 strikes (the severity of the situation). When you decide to swing, swing hard. Batting practice always helps. PLAY BALL! :D

HiltonFarmer
March 7, 2007, 01:35 AM
Ummmm - LFI means what?

Carry on though - good thread.:)

HiltonFarmer

EJJR
March 7, 2007, 11:20 AM
When given the opportunity in such a situation between fight or flight, I would think flight to be the most prudent; of course circumstances dictate what action is appropriate. Raising ones level of awareness is always a good thing no matter the situation/environment/danger level. Much smarter to be pro-active than re-active IMHO.

When I obtain my hangun I pray I never need to brandish it. If I need to pull it out that means its going to be used. IMHO, there is no glory in taking a life, even to preserve one.

Capt Charlie
March 7, 2007, 12:39 PM
Ummmm - LFI means what?

Lethal Force Institute (http://www.ayoob.com/AboutUs.html)

OBIWAN
March 7, 2007, 03:19 PM
"it is just about impossible to get a gun away from someone without getting shot"

It is Important to remember that our immediate goal is to not get killed...getting shot is often simply an inconvenience...getting killed stinks

Far less ninja skill is involved in simply controlling the weapon rather than snatching the pebble from the hand.

Simply keeping it pointed anywhere except at you is sufficient at least for the short term. (while screaming like a girl -sorry Pax- and trying to bounce the bad guy off the storage unit.)

At contact distances a handgun may be the least desirable option

I think everyone here is real happy that this guy (if he really exists) did not get shot.

We are not judging him as much as adding some food for thought

In that vein...I would ask why everyone is focused on the victims pocket pistol as if it is his only option for defense;)

I would also like to think that I would refuse to be put in a helpless position...hopefully I will never have to find out

This guy trusted the perp not to shoot him...trusted him enough to make it real easy...and he was lucky...he evidently guessed right

But there are plenty of stats out there that show you the potential folly of allowing yourself to be placed in even greater danger

If he had refused to turn around the bad guy might simply have walked away...and he would have left without adding a second weapon to his arsenal

How is that for Monday Morning QB ing

Sycofrogg
March 7, 2007, 07:16 PM
Defensive Shooting For Real-Life Encounters by Ralph Mroz says it all on this subject. You want the right mindset to stop being just a guy with a gun, read this book.

ranger39000
April 1, 2007, 12:05 PM
Hey guyz, what units were u in and when? OpSec clear now. Just wonderin? Me X 2 :D

lbrasi
April 1, 2007, 12:43 PM
The ole' noggin is often the best CCW we've got! I think he used it wisely.

buckster
April 1, 2007, 01:11 PM
All the more reason to be proficient in martial arts. That turn around [if close enough], could of included a round house to the temple or the gun. Don't ever turn your back to your opponent unless that is included. I was mugged in Houston by two guys one had a gun. The round house worked and by the time police arrived, I had 6 witnesses and the cops thought I mugged them. I had just got back from a tournament and was in top shape. You might want to talk to the manager about having security better there.

Deaf Smith
April 1, 2007, 01:49 PM
Just goes to show you, a gun in the hand is worth two on the belt.

nbk2000
April 5, 2007, 05:48 AM
...throw your wallet or keep your cash in a WHEIGHTED money clip. throw it behind him and run the other way,...


If I was a robber and someone tried that with me, I'd probably shoot them for trying to be clever and pick the money up at my leisure. :p

Say you did do that, and he just slowly steps back, never taking his eyes off you...now what? You're no better off then before, and you've likely ****** him off.

Or maybe he calls out for his partner, who was keeping watch around the corner, to come and pick it up, and now there's two guys for you to deal with, where there was only one before. Oops!

True, if it's a hoodie punk, he might turn around, or he might shoot you for being too clever. The time for being clever is not after someone has gotten the drop on you and has you at gunpoint, but before, like in being clever in keeping someone from getting the drop on you in the first place.

If you really feel like being clever, build a flash-bang into your wallet, and hand that over to the mugger. Now that's being clever! :D

He wouldn't be worried about his home if he NEVER had his home address on ANYTHING (like I do) he'd have on him or in his car. ID, registration, utility bills, anything...never with your home address.

You won't get stranded if you're mugged (unless you are Sgt.Fathead) if you keep a spare car and house key under the soles of every pair of shoes you own (me again).

Glenn Bartley
April 7, 2007, 10:32 AM
I write my experience so that I may learn how to protect myself in the future and also to let others know never to let your guard down!

Should the guy involved in this incident read this, I would say this to him:

First of all, good thing you were not hurt. Now for some critical thinking on my part. My guess is that you have not trained for the type of situation in which you found yourself; and I say so because you seem to have doubts that you acted correctly. I also have some doubts about how correctly you acted, but those are based upon my personal training for, and experience with, just such a situation. While I cannot say how I might act in any given situation, I can say how I have acted in the past; and those actions were based upon my training and mindset. I would most likely have drawn and fired at this guy, and/or would have also made a lunge for his gun if he was close enough, to do a take-away. I doubt very much that I would have turned my back on him, but had I done so, once I felt his gun touch me, I would have made a move to disarm him because I then would had an advantage of both knowing where his a gun was exactly, and of surprise, and training. Maybe I would have tried a ruse and told him I had more money and then grabbed my own pistol, turning to fire as I knocked his pistol away from me. This may have worked with the pistol in your pocket, but I can say for certain I do not usually carry that way because it puts you at a big disadvantage when a speedy draw may count.

I have been trained to do things like this over and over again. I have a mindset of not surrendering to a bad guy like this if there is any way for me to do otherwise. I also have a mindset of not surrendering my weapon to a bad guy. Surrendering to a bad guy puts you at his mercy. You were very lucky he did not shoot you, especially once he found your gun. Some bad guys are not as level headed as was this one. Surrendering your weapon to a bad guy puts another weapon into a bad guys hands, and it maybe used to kill an innocent.

If you are going to carry a firearm for self defense purposes, I believe you need to have the mindset to defend yourself with said firearm, to know how to retain your firearm, and to know how to do firearm take-aways when you are in a life or death situation. You need to be trained in several scenarios to get you into the correct mindset. Of course, as I said already, one can never know in advance how one will act at any given time, but if you train to do something, chances are you will act in accordance with your training. As for your particualr situation, you have to decide whether or not you did as l as you could have done.

All the best,
Glenn B

CarbineCaleb
April 7, 2007, 11:21 AM
Well... at least in my mind, he did the right thing. Unless you are *certain* you will be shot anyway (which is another matter entirely), in my mind discretion is the better part of valor.

I had some martial arts training (no, no Bruce Lee here ;))... but the question came up - what if a guy pulls a gun on you, what do you do? The instructor, who was a 4th degree black belt, said: "Nothing. You don't do anything. Your foot or hand needs to move about 4-5 feet to contact him and even have a hope of winning, and in that time, his finger only needs to move a *half-inch* to win. I would just give him my wallet and whatever else he asked for". This was from a guy who was lightning quick and also knew how to move without 'telegraphing' his kicks and punches.

At least in my mind, that is a sound analysis. If the guy is indeed mentally prepared to kill you if necessary, and he's already got the gun trained on your vitals at close range with finger on the trigger... I mean, this isn't the movies - just how is it that one would expect to win?

nbk2000
April 7, 2007, 07:21 PM
Action almost always beats reaction.

It takes a minimum of a half-second for the enemy to see your action and begin to react to it. How far/fast can you move in half a second? If you can move the gun or your torso far enough in the half-second it'd take him to react to your movement and pull the trigger, you won't be shot.

However, how quickly can he get the gun back on target and pull the trigger compared to your attempt to take it away from him?

Doggieman
April 12, 2007, 04:29 AM
My lines in the sand: http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/Boundaries.htm

What are yours?


GReAT ARTIclE!!

It's so true you have to decide what you simply will not do BEFORE the situation arises. Because once you're on the slippery slope of "hand over your money" "now turn around" "now get on your knees" "now you're going to die"... .where do you suddenly start to fight, no matter what the consequences may be?

When you're in that situation it's TOO LATE to make the decision. You have to draw the line before getting there and once it's overstepped you ACT without questioning. Your mind is in no state to be doing a lot of thinking at that point -- the adrenaline is pumping, the fear is going, your mind shuts down. The time to have thought of all that is passed and you cannot be assured of making the right decision when it's all going down.

It's like when you're playing infield in baseball, you decide what you're going to do with the ball BEFORE the pitch is thrown and hit your way.