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G-Cym
January 14, 2007, 06:42 AM
So you're walking out of a gas station towards your car. It's 0130, and it's dark. A man walks up asking for some change.

<what do you do at this point>

Whether you gave him some change or not, now he's asking for some real cash or even a ride someplace. He's moving closer to you and being very persistent.

<what do you do at this point>

Now he's showing his true face. He pulls a weapon and demands all of your money, you phone, and your keys.

<what do you do at this point>

Do you draw and fire? Draw and give a warning? Just give up your belongings and call yourself luck to be alive?

Using your own judgment, state laws, personal beliefs, etc, what is your plan to deal with an armed mugger? What about an unarmed mugger?

Hook686
January 14, 2007, 06:53 AM
Search this forum .... You will find all the information you could possibly want, regarding this type scenario.

G-Cym
January 14, 2007, 07:34 AM
What would be the fun in that?

tepin
January 14, 2007, 09:13 AM
ill play...

at 0130 at the gas station i have a gun in hand in my pocket.

reply:
"i dont have any money" [backup / side-step]
"i dont have any **** money now get the **** away from me" [backup]
"boom, boom, boom" [three rounds through my coat pocket]

if the threat is immediate, you probably dont have time to 'warn' the bg. certainly dont do warning shots. thats TV stuff and dumb.

tshadow6
January 14, 2007, 09:18 AM
I would do one of two things as the guy walks up to me. 1-head back into the store at a fast walk. or if my car was closer , head to the car at a fast walk. 2-DO NOT STOP, keep moving at a fast walk, throwing the mutt's timing off. as far as the rest goes, I never give change or rides to strangers so the scenerio stops at the guy approaching me. Also, I never go to gas stations that late without my nasty mean tempered dog, or my 9mm

NCHornet
January 14, 2007, 09:19 AM
As soon as the guy doesn't take no for an answer, and starts following me back to my truck, I go into in condition orange, trying to put as much space between he and I but trying not to turn my back to him. At this point my hand will be on our near my sidearm, he pulls a weapon and threatens my life, now we are in condition red, and the sidearm comes out of holster and a bead is drawn on center of mass. At this moment, it is up to the BG, and the type of weapon he has as to what happens next. If he has a knife he would have a split second to withdraw from the attack, if the weapon is a gun shots would be fired at center of mass, and call 911.
Of course this is Sun morning QB. there are thousands of variables that would alter my reaction, but by the scenario you gave this is pretty much how I would respond.

newerguy
January 14, 2007, 10:10 AM
You'll see a range of opinions out there on this. I'll offer these thoughts.

If you are facing down a guy with a gun, you are almost certainly NOT going to be able to draw and fire before he shoots you. You are proably putting your self in more danger by going for your gun. If it's a knife, and the guy is upclose, same thing. You are getting cut before you get your gun out. (I've taken knives away from people twice. I've been luckly. I've been taught to do it. I had practiced it. I haven't done it in years. I would rather not ever do it again. It's almost certainly safer than trying to draw. If you get you hand cut up, it's better than being stabed in the chest, stomach, or an artery.)

If you have a revolver or derringer in your pocket, and you hand on it, you have a significant advantage over a person having a gun in a holder.

I'm not likely to have more than $100 in cash (probably much less) on me, plus three credit cards, that might cost me $50 bucks each if they are used before I can cancel them. I've got a $150 (replacement cost) cell phone. My drivers license will cost me $8 bucks to replace. My work ID will cost me $20. My wallet cost me $9. That's $437, if they take my entire wallet and cell phone. My lawyer charges $450/hr. That's high for a criminal defense lawyer, but that's what he charges (nominally). He's a friend, I don't know what he'd charge me. Figure your run of the mill defense lawyer's going to get $200 per hour, and I can't imagine them not asking for a non-refundable retainer of $1000, right off the bat. I'd love for a defense lawyers to give a ball park fee for working a shooting that never even makes it to arraignment, or one that never goes to trial. Till then, I guessing $1000 minimum. So, besides the moral cost of taking a life, shooting a mugger, even when legally justified, will cost me at least $650 net, a night at the police station, possibly my gun, possibily my license. And, if the DA comes after me, a criminal defense lawyer I know was getting $100k for a homicide defense that goes to trial as of about ten years ago. I don't know what his rates are now.

GalilARM
January 14, 2007, 12:07 PM
Unless you HAVE to shoot someone, its not worth it. It should always be a last resort.

tepin
January 14, 2007, 06:21 PM
Unless you HAVE to shoot someone, its not worth it. It should always be a last resort.
yep... regardless of right or wrong... court will be 50K to 100K so make sure you really need to shoot the the person... get gas during the day.

badbob
January 14, 2007, 07:05 PM
Do what you're supposed to do, give him everything you have and beg him not to kill you. The Brady Bunch will be proud of you.:)

Seriously, try to get as much distance between yourself and the mugger. Your options increase as you create "working room".

badbob

Glenn E. Meyer
January 14, 2007, 08:23 PM
Several legit trainers have classes on this situation and run FOF scenarios to deal with it. Much more useful than Internet speculation about the Brady bunch.

Syntax360
January 15, 2007, 12:37 AM
Whatever it takes to not get shot, including handing over my wallet.

But I'd certainly drop the hammer if I didn't have any other options.

claude783
January 15, 2007, 12:57 AM
The sad thing is that there is nothing set in concrete. Each situation will be a little different. However, one can hand over the wallet with one hand, and as you extend your hand, fumble the wallet. Hopefully his eyes will follow the wallet towards the ground, as you :
A; draw and shoot him.
B: kick him in the knee cap, followed up by a couple of kicks to the head
C: run screaming and shouting, doing a zig zag pattern

Maser
January 15, 2007, 01:39 AM
Well, this is obviously a close range scenerio here. I am not a military type, but I have been trained by my uncle to be able to disarm ANYONE at close range USMC stlye.

dave421
January 15, 2007, 06:25 AM
Well, this is obviously a close range scenerio here. I am not a military type, but I have been trained by my uncle to be able to disarm ANYONE at close range USMC stlye.

No, you really haven't. Believing so can/will cause you a lot of problems. The best fighters in the world are the ones that know that they don't know everything and they can't do everything. While I strongly believe that a disarming attempt should at least be considered in a mugging situation, it's definitely not going to work 100% of the time and it could be dangerous to believe otherwise.

mikejonestkd
January 15, 2007, 10:30 AM
Maser,

You might, just might be able to disarm an assailant 80% of the time if you are REALLY good, however no amount of money in your wallet is worth the 20% chance that you will fail in your attempt to disarm them. I have been training 20+ years and am still amazed at the number of people that think they can move faster than a bullet, or even avoid a knife ALL the time.

If the assalilant has the drop on you, drop the wallet and run.

CWL
January 15, 2007, 04:40 PM
Something similiar has happened to me twice in gas stations at night.

On both occasions a stranger has walked up to me while I was fueling my vehicle, as they started walking closer to me and asking for change, I immediately angled my body to reduce target size, put my right hand to my hip (I may only have had a folder on me at times, but he doesn't know that) while holding my left hand out and yelled "Stay Back" & "Don't come any closer". I also readied myself to retreat around my vehicle to always keep it between me and the BG. On both occasions, the guy got the hint, backed-off & walked away.

I would never give them the chance to get any closer to me than original point of contact, I will even move myself to increase the distance if possible & put something between us.

One other time I was in the parking lot of a KFC waiting for my order to come out & there was a rough looking punk loitering there as well. He started moving towards me trying to look casual about it, so I walked to the passenger side of my vehicle and opened the door to show my border collie sitting there. When he saw my dog, he stopped, turned-around and walked away -he never even noticed the .45 which I drew and held behind my leg.

I think that the best tactic is to always be aware of your surroundings, communicate very clearly that you are not a victim and you won't let him/her closer.

Hook686
January 16, 2007, 02:52 PM
I am always amazed reading about the number of folks that go to the post office, at 2 a.m., get their gas, at 2 a.m., get milk at a quickstop type store, at 2 a.m. This always seems with deserted parking lots, with dark areas all around. Waiting in the parking lot for my KFC order is a new one.

Why would you wait in the parking lot for your order ? I do not understand why folks do not think, in advance ... get their gas during the day, pick up their mail in the morning, frequent businesses that are busy, rather than isolated ....

Does situational awarenes exclude evaluating basically safe behavior practices ?

JoshB
January 16, 2007, 03:30 PM
I've thought this out several times in my head. Here is what I would do...

So you're walking out of a gas station towards your car. It's 0130, and it's dark. A man walks up asking for some change.

"Sorry, I'm a little short tonight." Keep walking to the car with one eye on him, the other looking for the execution of "plan b."

now he's asking for some real cash or even a ride someplace. He's moving closer to you and being very persistent.

Either 1) With a stern look, "Hey man, I don't have anything for you!" Keeping both eyes on him, free dominant hand/arm just in case you need to grab your pistol [ hand should be free to begin with, but maybe you have some milk, etc in your hand].

OR, 2) If the situation was such as determined necessary [nothing fits one of these cookie cutter scenerio's], grabbing the grip of my pistol with same stern look, "Hey man, I don't want any problems!"

Now he's showing his true face. He pulls a weapon and demands all of your money, you phone, and your keys.

See my response for the second step.

If I went with 1), then, with a compliant look, "Sure thing, let me grab my wallet," as I smoothly draw my pistol and proceed to end the threat...

If I went with 2), [he already know's I'm armed] I quickly draw and end the threat...

At this point, deadly force is clearly authorized. In 1), you show compliance untill you can gain the advantage. In 2), you proceed in the escalation of force you already established.

What about an unarmed mugger?

I grab my pistol, let him know I mean business, and if I feel as if my/someone else's life is threatened, I end the threat...

1911 fan
January 16, 2007, 03:43 PM
Yup. I'm a firm believer in The united states policy on terrorists. WE DON'T SURRENDER. However, violence is rarely the answer but when it is it's the only answer

markj
January 16, 2007, 03:44 PM
What do you do in a mugging?

I dont know, never been mugged :) but if anyone was pointing a gun at me you better belive I will do as they ask until I get my moment, then it is all over as I know run fu the oriental art of escape :)

BTW, I have been shot at, carry a piece of a bullet in my left shoulder, it hurt a lot. Got stabbed once in the back of my neck, that really hurt not to mention the blood all over me. Alas the bouncer days are over for me, the last big one I broke my hand on some guys head, that also hurt.

I am always amazed reading about the number of folks that go to the post office, at 2 a.m., get their gas, at 2 a.m., get milk at a quickstop type store, at 2 a.m.

I used to get off of work right about that time and yes I even went to get gas on occasion :) but I do stay out of the "dark areas".

revjen45
January 16, 2007, 09:44 PM
I'm usually in bed at 0130 hours asleep like those who have to get up at 0500, but since you asked.... At his approach I don my "eat guano and die" face, put my hand on my gun (in my jacket pocket if a revolver, pants pocket if the Mak, OWB holster @ 4 o'clock if it's Mr. Steyr), weak hand over chest to assume weaver stance and prepare to present. "Don't **** with me" is about as plain as one can be to indicate absence of fear. Predators don't usually attack prey that will put up a fight and demonstrating that you don't fear the creep is probably the best way to convince him to go after someone else who does. I was approached in broad daylight on the street in Seattle by 2 guys in a sleazy area (was there because that's where the medical facility I was visiting is located- not to score some crack). One walked up and asked for spare change while the other flanked me and positioned a skateboard over his shoulder. About 2 weeks earlier a man had been brained with a skateboard in that area and died, so it was Condition Orange/turning Red immediately. I put my hand on the .38 snubbie in my back pocket and assumed the ready to draw stance while giving them the ES&D look and saying nothing. The one who wanted money muttered something and they left. Were they planning to jump me right on the street? I don't know, but if they had I would have shot them both, closest one first. There was no doubt in my mind (nor time for an adrenaline rush), but I wished for a gun with more power and capacity. It's not a matter of whether the contents of my wallet are worth the cost of a lawyer. The contents of my head most certainly are, and I will not allow a sociopathic sub-human to do me harm.

mpage
January 17, 2007, 06:39 AM
Well if, in this scenario, the presumption is that you're armed, then I think it's pretty cut and dried.

I think a more interesting question is: what if someone who's relatively powerful looking, like some young con who just got out of the joint, comes up to you and demands money or he'll kick your ass. What if he wails on you and is obviously better with his fists?

You dump him and when the cops get there they want to know why you shot an unarmed man. Maybe he's a local "kid" who doesn't happen to have much of an arrest record.

ckd
January 17, 2007, 09:41 AM
So give him money and all will be well!? I would agree with avoiding having to show and/or use deadly force, but isn't this all about the best and worst case scenario?

If you let him quitely get within hand-out range you get what you deserve.

Re-direct his attention to another car, move back into the store, alert the clerk of pest, someone call the police if you think the threat has merrit. If you are blocked by your return to the store, we're assuming you don't have family to protect here, tell him/her in a loud firm voice "I can't help you", watch his hands moving your support hand to a stop position, preferably with a bright blindling pocket light to stun the pest, try to divert him to a sheeple, get out of there. Keep moving until you are sure you can safely enter and move your car. A covert draw or snubby aimed through your coat provides you with the last measure. Escalation can occur in the blink of an eye, often firm verbal commands and attentive body language will deflate the pests plan, they prefer easy marks.

I carry a through down roll of bills and an expired credit card in the pocket just below my CCW; it gives me options. I've seen first hand the results of just being compliant, it doesn't always work the way the poor victim/sheeple hoped it would, especially for women.

JohnKSa
January 17, 2007, 12:03 PM
I think a more interesting question is: what if someone who's relatively powerful looking, like some young con who just got out of the joint, comes up to you and demands money or he'll kick your ass. What if he wails on you and is obviously better with his fists?There is a legal concept called disparity of force.

What it means is that if an attacker is obviously significantly stronger or much more capable, or if there are several attackers, the fact that they very likely could do you serious injury or kill you without a weapon means that you can respond to their unarmed threat by using a deadly weapon.

The first Texas CHL shooting was just such a case. It went to trial and the facts that the slight CHL holder was permanently injured, had a good lawyer and the very large dead attacker had a "Born to Kill" tattoo figured heavily into his acquittal. In other words, you probably won't go to jail, but you almost certainly will go to court.

Doug.38PR
January 17, 2007, 12:42 PM
So you're walking out of a gas station towards your car. It's 0130, and it's dark. A man walks up asking for some change.
<what do you do at this point> After dusk! Just say a firm NO! and keep walking. Avoid turning your back on him, watch what he is doing not what he is saying.

Whether you gave him some change or not, now he's asking for some real cash or even a ride someplace. He's moving closer to you and being very persistent.

<what do you do at this point> Be aware of what is going on around you. He may have friends in the other direction. His aim might be to distract you. Tell him NO again. If he is getting too close for comfort (set your boundaries) Tell him to go away putting your hand up as a shield. If it looks like he is making a threatening move (hands going into coat or pockets) be prepared to go for your gun.

Now he's showing his true face. He pulls a weapon and demands all of your money, you phone, and your keys.
<what do you do at this point> If he pulls a weapon, you'd best at least have your hand on yours. BUT you don't want it to get to this point.

Do you draw and fire? Draw and give a warning? Just give up your belongings and call yourself luck to be alive?

If your life is in danger, draw and fire if you must. None of this is written in stone. It's not always a play by play scenario, but be sure of this: DON'T give him anything, DO tell him NO, DO keep your distance and MAKE SURE he keeps his. More than likely if he sees that you are a man who is confident, unintimidated and aware of his surroundings he won't persist. A retired LEO told me a while back that if a criminal can think of just one reason not to do something, then he won't do it. They are cowards and the very reason they are criminals is because they are cowards and too lazy to do anything much less risk their health over something.

If your gun in anyway is produced, CALL THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY and tell them what happened. Even if it is just putting your hand on the grip visibly to make him retreat from a threat. If you don't, then he might and will have a different story to tell them.

threegun
January 17, 2007, 03:39 PM
A friend gave me a great way to both resolve most problems like this and to secure friendly witnesses in the worst of cases. It goes like this a bum, hoodlum, scumbag, thug, punk, whatever approaches making you uncomfortable even thought they haven't yet proved to be a threat. You loudly say STOP LEAVE ME ALONE I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY DON'T ROB ME!!! followed by GET AWAY DON'T HURT ME SOMEONE HELP ME if they continue to advance.

Of course you follow all of the smart tactical rules like keeping distance, scanning for others, escape if possible, etc.

If you are forced to shoot the only thing witnesses can say is that you told the guy not to rob you, not to hurt you, and asked for help. No cussing to give the appearance of starting a fight or getting upset and allowing emotion to overtake you and cause you to shoot out of anger instead of fear.

It has been field tested and approved.....never had to draw or shoot yet thankfully and it stops them in their tracks. I don't know if they think you are nuts or realize that you are getting things ready in case you have to blast them but it works.

Beckerich
January 17, 2007, 03:43 PM
five words that work on any desperate druggie

"I-have-anti-personnel-grenades."

if he keeps coming after that, blow'em away pa!

Doug.38PR
January 17, 2007, 03:44 PM
You loudly say STOP LEAVE ME ALONE I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY DON'T ROB ME!!! followed by GET AWAY DON'T HURT ME SOMEONE HELP ME

That sounds more like panicing. It also tells them that you are afraid of them. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

perpster
January 17, 2007, 04:36 PM
What do I do in a mugging? Usually, I say "Hands Up! Your money or your life!":D

protectedbyglock
January 17, 2007, 06:57 PM
Quick answer: Keep your distance and watch what's going on. I wouldn't go for my gun unless I was sure he wouldn't see me, and only after he pulled his. However, it's pretty damn hard to pull and be sure he won't see you if you're that close to him.
Otherwise, I would cough up whatever he asked for.

protectedbyglock
January 17, 2007, 07:07 PM
Oh, I have another question. If you are WAY smaller than your attacker (like a small girl) what should you do if you carry?
Do the same rules apply, or do you just allow yourself to be raped or mugged, or have the crap beat out of you? What if your attacker gets your gun and kills you with it? My girlfriend was asking me some questions because I was explaining to her about how you have to be in a lifethreatening situation before guns are brought out. What justifies that?
I'm 6'2", 220lbs. It would take a LOT for me to pull a gun. But if I was 5'1" 105 and a female, and some punk got up in my face and threatened me, I think the rules would change. What would you guys suggest I tell her? Also, are there any links to find laws on this?
I just always followed the rule that unless my life is in immediate danger of death, the gun stays in the holster. If I were a little girl, I think what it would take to consider myself in "immediate danger of death" would be much less if attacked by a large man.
My sister was mugged in philly a few months back. I don't know if the mugger was armed and neither does my sister. The guy just cold cocked her and took everything she had. Would she have had the right to shoot his a$$ in that situation? This stuff gets pretty sticky.

stephen426
January 17, 2007, 08:27 PM
My sister was mugged in philly a few months back. I don't know if the mugger was armed and neither does my sister. The guy just cold cocked her and took everything she had. Would she have had the right to shoot his a$$ in that situation? This stuff gets pretty sticky.

I think women can get away with a lot more than men in these situations, especially against unarmed attackers. As mentioned by JohnKSa, there is the disparity of force (not saying that all women are weaker by any means, but it will work strongly in your favor in court if it ever got that far). For someone to walk up and assault her like that, you sister most likely could have shot him and not ever be charged with anything. She could say that he threatened to rape her or something like that.


I hate to say it, but situational awareness will prevent most of these situations. When I am out late and in a desolate area, I usually have my gun in my hand inside my pocket. I constantly scan my surroundings and look directly at anyone approaching me. I am not a big guy (5'7" 160lbs.) but I project a sense of self-confidence.

One important thing for security planning is not going to quite areas late at night in the first place. There is absolutely no rule stating that you have to fill up only when your car is about to run out of gas. I know this does not apply to road trips, but that is not the majority for most people. If you fill up you car anytime it hits a quarter tank, you can often avoid the late night fill ups. Now if you have to run out for something that can't wait, try to park as close to the entrance as possible and try to pick well lit areas.

As for what my reactions would be, any request for money would be answered with "sorry, I only carry credit cards". That is becoming more and more of a fact for many people now. It is much safer (unless they force you to withdraw money from an ATM) for the most part.

If the bad guy gets more forceful or agressive and continues to approach, I would repeat in a louder and more forceful voice, "I told you I don't have any money. Leave me alone." If it is possible, I would either go back into the store or get into my car (whichever was closer). If the bad guy makes a move to intercept, my gun is coming out. I know this may be considered brandishing, but its hard to beat someone who already has a gun drawn on you. I would then tell him to back of and report the guy directly to the store employee and the police. Any attempts to produce a weapon or a gun grab would probably result in me pulling the trigger. I trained in martial arts a long time ago, but I consider it folly to tangle with an unknown attacker.

One option would be to buy a taser (http://www.taser.com/). Those things aren't cheap, but they appear to be very effective. This is an ideal option for non-lethal defense and can be used with much lesser repurcussions. I would also have the taser out much earlier than I would draw my gun. Of course some are going to argue that they don't trust battery powered devices, but lithium batteries hold their charge for a very long time. One other thing abour the taser is that it works even if it is an off centered hit. I've talked to quite a few police officers and I haven't found one who was not immediatley knocked down when they got tased (they must get tased before they can carry a taser).

revjen45
January 17, 2007, 08:29 PM
Pepper spray is a good alternative (got to get some). If it's illegal where you live, perhaps long range wasp killer would suffice. It shoots a stream of insecticide to kill the inhabitants of a a nest without getting close enough to draw them to attack you. I have no idea what the legal ramifications are, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once.

nwetherill
January 18, 2007, 12:36 AM
Well I would start with the 1,000,000 volt stun gun (ebay 35 bucks), Got some 15% pepper spray in the car as well, and go from there.
Got stun guns for my wife and some of our friends and figured hell why not get one. pepper spray makes great stocking stuffers lol.. Then there is always my .45.

As far as using the ninja USMC pistol strip........ prolly not.:D

Beckerich
January 18, 2007, 10:09 AM
i think the stun gun wud be the best, it knocks down any man and u dont have to murder any one

threegun
January 18, 2007, 03:16 PM
Doug,

That sounds more like panicing. It also tells them that you are afraid of them. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me

Did I mention it has worked 100 percent to date from at least 4 people I know.

Don't forget that the witnesses are going to tell the jury that you called this poor dead gentleman (with mom saying he was a good boy) a MF or SOB or just told him you were going to blow his head off.......and then proceeded to blow his head off. Be careful how tough you try to sound. This is precisely why my friend developed our method........only helpful witnesses and it still works. I don't need to sound tough............it works. Try it next time a bum trys to bum (pardon the pun) so change from you.

threegun
January 18, 2007, 03:22 PM
i think the stun gun wud be the best, it knocks down any man and u dont have to murder any one

We are only allowed to shoot in self defense. Killing someone in self defense ins't murder. Besides most stun guns (except for the police taser guns) are crapola. I hit myself with a stun gun like 140,000 volts and it only burned my arm at the prongs. My friend hit me on the butt cheek and the same thing just burned a little.........with fresh batts. It did make me want to beat my friends head in though.......took me from happy to lets fight in one zap.

Doug.38PR
January 18, 2007, 05:25 PM
Don't forget that the witnesses are going to tell the jury that you called this poor dead gentleman (with mom saying he was a good boy) a MF or SOB or just told him you were going to blow his head off.......and then proceeded to blow his head off. Be careful how tough you try to sound. This is precisely why my friend developed our method........only helpful witnesses and it still works. I don't need to sound tough............it works. Try it next time a bum trys to bum (pardon the pun) so change from you.

Well, if it worked for them fine. But 4 people in 4 incidents. What if their are no witnesses around....it is dark, it is 1:30 in the morning. They may not have had any hostile intentions (just pestering) and were embarrassed when you started screaming at them. On the other hand, if they are indeed hostile they may decide they can intimidate you if you sound panicy and afraid.
I'm not saying you should pull our gun and scream at the "SOB" or "MF". That also is panicing and, like you said, can get you in trouble. I'm just saying you should watch what he does, avoid him and firmly but calmly let him know you are not giving him anything and set boundaries and be sure he knows when he has crossed them. Pulling your gun should only be done when you are sure of his intent.

ckd
January 18, 2007, 05:42 PM
OC spray, stun guns, taser, and other non-lethal force options may be functional in tiered well trained team response to a single agressor with room to manuver, but for the average CCW, will generaly just eliminate any time and distance advantage you may desperately need. Lethal force must be proportional to the threat, but excessive worrying about legal issues, should not paralyze one's defense in a lethal enounter.

I suspect others will have different views.

whip1
January 18, 2007, 05:48 PM
Is a mugging a lethal encounter?

revjen45
January 18, 2007, 08:28 PM
It is if somebody gets killed. When we moved to TX in '03 one of the first news stories we heard was about some poor peon who died after being stabbed to death while the 911 dispatcher caught the whole thing over his cell phone. A cop on the phone isn't worth much. A gun in the hand is.

geologist
January 19, 2007, 01:57 AM
I'd soak the POS in high octane gasoline and then light a cigarette for him. :D

Remember, if you give a criminal a match, he'll be warm for an hour. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. ;)

WeedWacker
January 19, 2007, 02:27 AM
I for one don't have much money to have in a wallet. as for carjacking throw the keys over his head and run if you are unarmed and he is. If he has a blunt object I might have a chance against him if I can get my jacket off. Otherwise I'd just keep my distance and not give him anything. Rule of thumb is if you can run do it. Only face an opponent when you have an advantage or need to protect your person. Scary thing is if his face is uncovered chances are he may not intend to let you live. If his face is covered he is not afraid of being ID'd.
My complete response:
Gun: Give him what he wants but throw it behind him and get to cover

Object: Run. If I can't, take off jacket as Sarong style shield. If I have it my Glock 78 (Knife not gun) will come out and slash his tendons in his forearm causing him to drop said object (if the object is half the size of a baseball bat and a onehanded instrument) Maybe not a finishing blow but he will bleed to death in a few minutes if I hit the artery.

Unarmed: If I think I can't beat him I will run again. If forced to I would start by getting a hold on him (maybe a hammer lock if he reaches for me) or throwing a snap kick to his belt and taking a warrior stance. If he throws a punch get him in a choke hold and end it quickly. Again if forced to and I have it i would pull out my knife and take my stance.

As of yet I am saving my money for a XD .45. My shotgun doesn't exactly fit in my jacket pocket and is a little illegal to cut it down so it does. If I could I would rather have a scatter gun over a pistol more for the intimidation aas well as the insurance the perp won't get up again

Doug.38PR
January 19, 2007, 03:03 AM
Is a mugging a lethal encounter?

YES! Someone is using force to get to an article on your person. That is a threat. They are willing to use force to get it away from you which means if you resist they are going to cause bodily harm to you.

JoshB
January 19, 2007, 08:19 AM
I'd soak the POS in high octane gasoline and then light a cigarette for him.

Remember, if you give a criminal a match, he'll be warm for an hour. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

What would the legal repercussions of this be?

mpage
January 19, 2007, 09:40 AM
There is a legal concept called disparity of force.

What it means is that if an attacker is obviously significantly stronger or much more capable, or if there are several attackers, the fact that they very likely could do you serious injury or kill you without a weapon means that you can respond to their unarmed threat by using a deadly weapon.

I've heard about that, but does this not vary from state to state?

markj
January 19, 2007, 03:48 PM
Quote:
I'd soak the POS in high octane gasoline and then light a cigarette for him.

Remember, if you give a criminal a match, he'll be warm for an hour. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

What would the legal repercussions of this be?

A darn waste of good gas. Could always claim he was a protester and set himself on fire :)

odessastraight
January 19, 2007, 05:09 PM
"What do you do in a mugging?"

It seems simple to me; get a good sight picture, proper sight alignment, and squeeze the trigger while concentrating on the tip of the front sight until recoil blurs it away. Take your time, but do this as fast as you can.

Baba Louie
January 19, 2007, 06:22 PM
Where is mugger in relation to you, your car, and the door you just walked out of? Which is closer? Are there other night-owls out and about as witnesses? Security cameras?
Can you move & react quickly? At what distance did you initially spot him? Do you have a CCW on you?

Depends on WHERE you are located... maybe. Laramie, WY is not NYC or South Central L.A.. For youngsters who might not know about Bernard Goetz, the following link might be an interesting read. (I know, a NYC subway at 1:30 in the afternoon is not a C-Store gas pump lot at 1:30 a.m.)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/17/lkl.01.html

I find the part about going through over 360 potential NYC jurors who had been mugged (30 - 40 who'd been mugged more than once) trying to find an untainted pool of Goetz's peers to stand a jury, darkly humorous. The civil lawsuit(s) that followed... not so funny.

Is it easier (and cheaper) to drop a $20 bill and run like hell?

Maybe

revjen45
January 19, 2007, 08:12 PM
I don't keep $20s in ready drop position- too easy to lose one.

JohnKSa
January 19, 2007, 09:43 PM
I've heard about that, but does this not vary from state to state?I don't know all the state laws and I would definitely recommend that you consult a legal expert in your area. In addition, if you're so inclined, many states post their statutes online.

I will say that I don't recall any reading any state law (again, I'm certainly not saying I've read them all) that specifies that the attacker must be armed. Only that the defender must reasonably believe that deadly force is the only option for preventing his immediate death or serious injury.

chadwimc
January 19, 2007, 10:21 PM
During this past summer, I was approached while pumping gas at 0300. I was trapped between the company truck, the pumps and three poor, misunderstood yoots. My first response to the one doing the talking was **** you, ******(expletive racial slur). Two of 'em broke off whatever was about to happen. The third still wanted to persue the strong arming. Until he saw the Taurus in my hand.
They are predators. Just like on National Geographic, they are looking for a weak target. Unless you're being accosted by a mental patient, attitude is a big part of the fight...

Tim Burke
January 21, 2007, 11:31 AM
My first response to the one doing the talking was **** you, ******(expletive racial slur). No need for that. If you do have to shoot someone, you don't want to help the media turn it into a race based assault.
Attitude is important, but you want it to always be clear that you are the good guy.

whip1
January 21, 2007, 02:33 PM
There are laws here that address that. If two guys get in a fight, it's assualt. If a racial slur is used, it a hate crime. The penealty for a hate crime is much higher for assualt.

revjen45
January 21, 2007, 08:58 PM
That's why whatever you say in response is in a low quiet growl, not a shout. You can always say the witnesses misunderstood you, and the perp gets the message loud and clear. Clarity of diction is way behind expression of deep down rage and lack of fear if you have time to talk before you have to shoot. One of my gun buds replied with "I'm not the guy." Perp:"What?" Gun Bud: "I'm not the guy you want to f- with," pulling back his jacket just enough to show a Commander. Perp: "I gotta go now" as he leaves burn marks on the pavement and a cloud of heel dust upon exit. Reading the laws of the state of WA indicates that I can carry my sword cane too, as long as I don't use it to threaten or intimidate innocent people. How handy for an old Fudd who can't run or duke it out.

chadwimc
January 21, 2007, 11:21 PM
I'm sorry. "Good evening, young man" just invites more trouble. I'll take my chances. They've already targeted me. I don't have a thing to lose...

threegun
January 22, 2007, 06:42 AM
Doug,
Pulling your gun should only be done when you are sure of his intent.

Might be to late then. There are ways to pull covertly.

As for sounding wimpy vs possibly giving a bad witness to the police I prefer sounding wimpy. Actually it isn't sounding wimpy unless your voice is wimpy. I guarantee you will understand clearly when I say leave me alone I don't have any money followed by don't rob me. I think you get the impression that the above is said in a cowering please mister robber leave me alone. I swear I don't have any money sir. Oh my get away you brute help help help. Totally wrong dude. My body language and verbal cadence is just as confident and forceful as if I was using more violent words. The only difference is if there are witnesses they will be friendly ones. Do what works for you but understand that if you do have to shoot, that bum you don't see killing a bottle of mad dog 20/20 will be in court saying exactly what you said to the jury.

Exactly what will you say in this situation. The guy is approaching (what do you say) the guy fails to comply (what do you say now) the guy continues unarmed and very passive basically politely ignoring you but entering your personal space (what do you say now).

03Shadowbob
January 22, 2007, 03:39 PM
I have had this scenario happen to me on a few occassions due to what I used to do for a living and when someone asked me for change which happened every week almost, I told them to tap dance for me and I'd give them my change if they did. I never got mugged or had anyone lay a hand on me. Not sure if it's because my size, my crazy request in response to their crazy request (crazy white boys are not ones to mess with just as Chris Rock :) ), or because of my confident look of I will kick your a$$ across the parking lot..but something worked. And anyone who thinks just because they have been trained in Kung-fu, Moogoo, whatever that they can eliminate all threats with their hands, is asking for a whippin'.

JohnKSa
January 22, 2007, 11:06 PM
I'm sorry. "Good evening, young man" just invites more trouble. I'll take my chances. They've already targeted me. I don't have a thing to lose...Methinks that there is a HUGE variety of responses that fall somewhere between "Good evening, young man" and a string of expletives and racial epithets.If a racial slur is used, it a hate crime. The penealty for a hate crime is much higher for assualt.It may also give a prosecutor a foothold to suggest that you were motivated by something other than the desire to save your life.

BillCA
January 22, 2007, 11:58 PM
Observations & comments;

First, it has happened to me while unarmed and it was pretty nerve wracking. But my approach was to tell the guy "Sorry, I just spent it" (change) while continuing to walk, angling away from him. When he persisted asking for cash, I told him "I ain't got enough to be worth it." and turned to face him, while still moving towards my truck He paused and apparently tried to make up his mind whether to leave or finish the job. He made the wrong decision, tried to close in around the truck. I pulled out the knife I keep in the door map pocket (a Gerber Mk-I combat knife), told him GET BACK, NOW! while bringing the knife into a low ready. He looked at the knife, then me, then decided to walk away calmly. I watched his hands the whole time, prepared to go for cover.

Typically, I keep about $8 in a cheap money clip in a pocket for such occasions. Fold the $5 bill on the outside and the $1 bills add some thickness. If tossed near the BG's feet, you can retreat, move to cover/concealment when he looks/bends down or draw your weapon while he's distracted.

Unfortunately, I've seen a number of cases where a BG will simply try to cold-cock the victim and take his belongings. This usually involves the victim not being aware of who's getting close to him or the closeness being "normal" for the circumstances (such as in a waiting line).

Well lit areas are no guarantee of safety, even if cameras are evident. All it does is give you better visibility of what he looks like and what he may be doing with his hands.

The best defense is to keep aware of who is nearby -- within rock-throwing distance as we used to call it. Inside that range they can easily run at you and make an attack before you are quite sure that's what is happening.

Tim Burke
January 23, 2007, 05:18 PM
Methinks that there is a HUGE variety of responses that fall somewhere between "Good evening, young man" and a string of expletives and racial epithets.Concur.
A forceful "GO AWAY!" or "LEAVE ME ALONE!" will call attention to the incident, identify you as the good guy, and indicate that you aren't going to be a pushover, without escalating the incident or confusing the witnesses. An aggressive vulgar response may persuade a normally non-violent panhandler to fight, or may force the armed robber to escalate to save face. What will witnesses say? "Well, the first thing I knew, this guy was cursing this other guy, and the next thing I knew, he'd shot him down like a dog."
Do what you want, but I think "Good evening, young man" delivered in the right tone of voice and accompanied by the right body language will serve you better than expletives and racial epithets.

fattsgalore
January 23, 2007, 06:11 PM
If he has the draw on me with a gun i give everything including my shoes; car; etc. None of that craps worth your life or the safety of others.
He comes at me with a knife i put him down like a dog.
No warning shot.
I've been in situations were bums or a stranger comes up to me. I have told them in these exact words
"Yo back up, just back up." or "I'm gonna leave. I don't want no trouble." I of course said this with my hand on my waist. Don't brandish the weapon. Your hand on your waist, no one will mistake it for anything else but i got a gun.

It's more legal to kill someone(self defense of course) then it is to pull your piece and tell them to back up. Cop passes by your going to jail and he's going home. I knew someone that was facing three years for firing a warning shot when he was about to get jumped by a gang of drunk dudes.
As of October 2006 in Florida you no longer have to escape or retreat you can now stand your ground.

Powderman
January 24, 2007, 10:38 AM
There is one thing that it seems a lot of posters are forgetting, and that is the 21 foot (7 yard) rule.

It has been proven, time and time again, that a person who is within 7 yards WILL MAKE CONTACT with you if they want--even after being shot.

Thus, your safety margin is 7 yards.

My reaction to an attempted mugging was this:

I noticed the person as I walked through the lot, toward my truck. I make it a habit to scan the parking lot before I set out, so I noted this guy who was about 40 yards as I entered the lot. (BTW, this was in Seattle, by Pike Place Market.)

As I started walking toward my truck, I noted that this guy started moving, too--and that he was moving parallel with me. First alarm flag up. I still had plenty of distance, so I did a quick second scan of the area--no one else. OK, now this guy had my undivided attention.

I slowed down, got to my truck and put it to my back, waiting to see what the guy was going to do. He gave a cursory look around, and then headed straight for me.

At about 15 yards out, I said in a firm voice, "That's far enough. What do you want?" He mumbled something, and continued his approach.

Now, the alarm bells were ringing loud. I was turned weak-side toward him, so he did not see me quietly unholster my Colt. As he continued, I said "That's close enough, stop NOW!" with a bit of a snap to the last word. This brought him up short. He stopped, just outside the 21 foot line. He looked at me; now I could see that he was almost certainly tweaking (possibly on meth or another stimulant). He said, "Hey, buddy, can you spare a dollar?"

I said, "Sorry, I'm broke." I maintained my position, Colt behind my leg. He looked at me, then glanced around the lot again. When his eyes met mine, they had assumed a hard, feral look. Oh crap, I thought...now it comes.

His hand went into his pocket and came out with a folding knife, which he opened. That was all the notification I needed; he crossed the line at that instant from Ronco Tweek-O-Matic to deadly threat.

I backed up one step and brought the Colt up, locked up in a Chapman stance. In my best parade ground voice, I told him, "Police Officer! Drop the weapon now, or you WILL be shot! Get on the ground, RIGHT NOW!"

The second he saw the Colt, however, his whole attitude changed. He immediately assumed the "Ah, ****!!" demeanor, and I swear he burnt rubber off his shoes, he took off so fast!

Did I chase him? Oh, HELL no! He took off, which was good enough for me. A quick call got three of Seattle's finest up there post haste. I gave them a description of the guy, and one of the responding officers said that it fit the general description of a guy they wanted on a variety of warrants. I wrote out a statement; and since I had drawn my sidearm, I gave a quick call to my department and talked to the on duty LT, describing my use of force.

The only thing different from anyone else going through the scenario was the fact that I am a cop. Do NOT let anyone cross the 21 foot line--even if you land good COM hits, they can still slip a blade into you.

If they break off and run, so much the better. If they freeze in place, then get in your car, still covering them at gunpoint and get out of there. Do NOT try to arrest or detain them. However, if they get on the ground, cover them from a good distance away and call the police. Give a good description of yourself, and stay on the line with dispatch. When the officers show up, re-holster your firearm IMMEDIATELY, and make sure that the responding officers see your hands.

Do call the police ASAP, and let them know what happened.

PS: By the way, it might be noteworthy to know that as I presented the weapon, I snapped the safety off, but kept my finger indexed. I was amped up at that point--and putting your finger on the trigger of a semiauto pistol with a 4 lb. trigger in that state is NOT something you want to do, unless you are going to shoot immediately.

Covert Mission
January 30, 2007, 05:51 PM
A couple thoughts, FWIW:

1- When all you've got is a hammer (i.e., Glock) then everything looks like a nail (i.e., something to shoot). Have other tools in your toolbox. Have plan A,B,C etc for these scenarios. Have a flashlight (I carry an E2E Surefire always) along with a folder and a cellphone when I'm armed or not. Be prepared to go for the proper tool. Also, be prepared to be a good witness, rather than intervening, if necessary. More cops have been killed off-duty in NYC than on duty in some years. No backup, no radio, no vest. Sometimes you just can't be Superman.

2- Determine the threat as best you can, but you still may be wrong. Real, or imagined? Maybe the guys actually does just want some change. At 0-dark-thirty, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Disengage, retreat (and live to fight another day), prepare to re-engage as needed. Put some distance, and hard cover between you and the potential threat. Either way, they'll have a harder time getting to you, and you have cover if they have a gun, or a knife even (and the 21' rule is really 30', imho...take it seriously). Use your command voice: "Listen, assh*le, back off now. I am legally armed, and will use force to defend myself. Go away now." Start out with hurting his feelings: "No, I don't have any change. Go away." Predators like the weak and infirm (and are usually cowards), so don't be that. Let them know you're prepared to take it to the max.

3- OODA Loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, then Act. Stay ahead of the power curve, and your possible assailant, by being aware (observe), anticipating what is happening or might happen (orient), having a plan for those potential situations (decide), and then acting as required . Always be in at least condition yellow when out, and ready to go to orange/red. Most "sheeple" are wandering around oblivious in condition white. They are lunch. Be aware of your surroundings. You pull up at night to a Stop 'n Rob...look around the lot. What's the clerk doing? How many people in the store? Are there cars idling in the lot? Who's in them? Situational awareness. Pan 'n scan all the time. It's not paranoia. Watch a cat...they're always looking. They even nap with one eye cracked. someone asked Clint Smith, "Why do you always carry a gun? Are you paranoid?" He deadpanned, "Why should I be paranoid...I have a gun."

Be safe.

rantingredneck
January 30, 2007, 06:28 PM
I've had two hairy situations come up and here's how I dealt with each

1) I had just purchased my wife's engagement ring and had to take it to another jeweler to be sized (where I bought it contracted this out to the other). I went in and got the work done and came back out. It was daylight but a rough part of Durham, NC. As I got in my truck I locked my door (automatic thing that I always do). As I started my truck I see a guy in my side mirror, he's approaching from the rear and trying his best to avoid the mirror but failing. He gets to my window and knocks on it. If you lookup "crackhead" in the dictionary you'll know what he looked like. This guy was bugged out and real twitchy. I shook my head "no", and put the truck in reverse. He steps up against the door and tries the handle with a determined "I'm gonna get in there" kinda look on his face. At this point if I'd tried to back out of the tight parking space I was in I would've probably run over him or at least his foot. So instead I reached under my seat and retrieved my 9mm where I'd left it when I went in the CCW unfriendly store. I did not point it at him, but laid it in my lap with my hand still on it and my best "Do we really want to go there?" look on my face. He immediately put both hands in the air and backed up. I don't know what he was expecting to happen but it obviously wasn't to see me with a gun.

2) I was in a mall parking lot in the same part of Durham (Yes I've since stopped going there). I was reaching into my car across the driver's seat to put some packages in the passenger seat when I "sense" someone approaching. I slipped my head and upper body back out of the car and my left hand (I'm right handed BTW) found my 9mm under my seat. I didn't draw but left my hand where it was. As I turned and looked at the guy he kinda startled like he wasn't expecting me to see him coming. I notice that his right hand is out of view behind his hip. I also notice that he's with a woman whose car is stopped right behind mine blocking me in. He immediately started on some spiel about how he'd been robbed the day before in that very parking lot and needed some money to get back to Virginia and he said it happened "Right over there" (pointing) and really was trying to get me to turn away and look over my shoulder. All the while he's still inching and angling forward. I'm still crouched inside my open door with my left hand under the seat and I'm kinda stuck. Can't back up, can't get into the car because I'd have to turn my back and would never make it, not to mention that there's a car right behind mine even if I got in and got the door closed/locked. I yelled "STOP" as loud as I could. At which several people nearby stopped and looked at both of us. At that point he stopped and shut up for a minute. I then said, "Turn around and go back to your vehicle, slowly. I've got nothing for you that you want." I guess he realized then that my left hand was out of view for a reason. He backed up the way he came and got in his car. I guess I'll never know and will always wonder what he had behind his hip. Either way I didn't want to find out the hard way. After they pulled away I sat there and let my heart get down to a normal rhythm before I could even back out of the parking space.

As to how I'd handle the hypothetical situation in the OP. I tend to avoid being out in the wee hours of the morning if at all possible. If I have to be, I'm armed and usually will have it in my hand in a pocket as I'm walking to my car. I'd tell the guy to back off all the while maintaining as much space between him and me as possible. Whether he's got a knife or a gun, he's dangerous. Knife fighting is ugly business. I'm pretty handy with a blade and with empty hands, but I'd rather take a gun to a knife fight than to go empty handed or with a blade myself. I prefer every advantage and will do everything possible to make sure I have it. Hopefully the BG get the point and go after easier prey. Most criminals are lazy, that's why they're criminals. They prefer soft targets when possible. That's not to say that I believe that is an iron clad rule. There are no absolutes in life........


BTW, sorry I wrote a book here........

Haterade
January 30, 2007, 09:25 PM
If I'm getting gas at 130 in the morning, I'm at least going to to a Quick-Trip. They are lit up like a football game and there are usually tons of people there (probably for that reason). I hope that situation wouldn't come up there. If it did, I dunno... guess I'll worry about it if it happens. But, I surely wouldn't use some single-pump rinky-dink gas station after midnight, unless I was in the middle of the desert or something.

revjen45
January 31, 2007, 07:17 PM
Pumping gas doesn't take both hands. When I'm gassing up I have one hand in my pocket if you know what I mean (and I don't mean pocket pool).

Lurper
February 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
The first time he asks for change, I would say "sorry bro" and put my hand on my pistol. At this point it doesn't matter what he does, I am going to prevail. This removes most potential problems like pistol getting hung up on clothes, etc.

If he persists, then I would draw and keep the pistol at a low ready and tell him to leave now (I know someone is going to say that is brandishing, but given the setting and situation, most cops wouldn't question it - besides the only desirable outcome is that I live another day). If he walked away, I would move behind my vehicle (if I wasn't already) and keep it between he and I. When he was out of sight, I would jump in and drive away. If he continued, I would yell "stop" as loud as I could and if there were other people around, I would yell "please call 911, this man is threatening my life." If he took another step forward, I would align the sights C.O.M. and yell (again so any spectators could hear) "you are threatining me, please don't come any closer or I will be forced to defend myself." If I could do it safely, I would back up toward the store and all the way inside if necessary. At some point, he is either going to stop or get shot. Either way, I live. I can deal with whatever consequences if any, later on.

If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire (I don't want to rekindle what was a rather lengthy debate several months ago), if you have that level of competency. If not, then don't, but have a realistic idea of your skill level. That should dictate what the response will be.

Other observations:
If you haven't thought about this type of situation even down to the details like what you should say to the assailant or the police in the aftermath, you should.

Less than lethal response isn't necessary, nor can it guarantee the desired outcome. Pepper spray isn't dependable, neither are Tasers (Rodnkey King is a perfect example). Remember, there are a lot of steps before you end up in jail. The state has to decide if there is ample evidence that you committed a crime, they have to decide if there is enough evidence to convict, they have to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that your life was not in danger before you are convicted. Yes, it could be costly, yes it will adversely impact you life, but life is the key word in that sentence since the alternative is to die. I am willing to take that chance, whether you are or not is up to you.

Hollering racial slurs, inflammatory, or degrading remarks will only serve to harm you in the big picture. If you decide to shoot someone, you should always strive to be righteous. If you have not decided to shoot someone, you should not have your hand on your pistol or perhaps not even carry one.

Your mind is your most powerful weapon. Develop situational awareness. In this scenario, we are past the point where S.A. leads to avoidance.

Know your skill level, if you can't hit a target at 10 yards from your carry holster in under 1.5 seconds, either get more training or try a different rig. Either way, know what you are capable of. Not every situation will unfold as slowly as this scenario would.

The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line. Second, the main reason the 21 ft rule was created was to highlight what can happen when someone is within that distance (Tuellar). With proper training that distance is halved, Tuellar's point was that someone can close that distance in 1.5 seconds, so you need to be able to hit your target in that amount of time.

Always maintain control of the situation. That way you effect the outcome. Compliance does not automatically guarantee survival. Many victims have been shot or otherwise harmed after complying with their assailant. If you are in control, you dictate the pace and course.

Again, play these things out in your head. It can pay off in spades when/if the situation arises in real life.

My more than .02's worth.

Powderman
February 10, 2007, 12:46 AM
The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line.

Uh, okay. ;)

If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire

Umm hmm. Care to demonstrate?

Lurper
February 10, 2007, 02:06 AM
Quote:
The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line.

Uh, okay.
So what you're saying powder is that you either will draw on everyone who enters the 21 ft zone or that you assess everyone who enters. Yeah, try that in a shopping center or even inside a convenience store. Again it is not practical. Too many people cite the 21 ft rule without even understanding where it came from. Tuellar used it as a measure of time. A person with a knife can close that distance in 1.5 seconds, therefore you need to be able to hit your target twice in that time span. But his real purpose was to illustrate to the L.E. community the importance of drawing your weapon before there is a threat - you only have to read his article to discover that.

Quote:
If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire

Umm hmm. Care to demonstrate?

I posted videos last year and if I get a chance I will make some more. Action is faster than reaction. The closer the assailant is, the greater sucess you will have. If they are farther than arm's length it becomes more difficult. At that distance, I can hit the target in anywhere from .5 to .7 seconds depending on the holster. The average person will take .25 to .30 seconds just to recognize that you are doing something let alone identify it as threatening. More time lapses (another .2 - .3 seconds) as they decide to shoot or not. It takes even more time for them to reacquire you (since you don't just stand there like a statue). As you draw you either drop, move, slap their gun away or any combination. You can even set it up by using a diversion like looking over their shoulder and saying something like "Officer, thank god you are here." At close range, you don't even need to present the pistol, as soon as it clears leather - let 'er rip. First, you'll have to get someone to show you the proper technique. Then, you'll have to practice until you are proficient with it. If you haven't achieved a master class level of proficiency then don't even try it.

Here is a simple demonstration you can conduct for yourself:
Have a friend hold his finger to your head. Tell him to holler bang as soon as he percieves you move. Either film it or have an observer note where his hand is relative to your head when he says bang. Stand there for a second, then drop to your knees as quickly as you can. Or move forward, back or diagonally, slap the gun, use distractions. Try them all and you will see for yourself. If the assailant is facing you with the gun right in your face (or torso even) turn sideways and step toward him on the outside of the arm the gun is in and he can no longer even bring it to bear. There are many effective variants. But like shooting skill itself, you need to not just learn it, but practice it and visualize using it in your mind.

Powderman
February 10, 2007, 02:34 AM
Friend, I don't doubt your experience or your intention....

but I will say this.

Training is always a good thing; practice in the gym/dojo/dojang/home is also good. It is true that you will react in the manner in which you train.

But I will tell you this: Everything that looks good on paper or in the gym tends to fare much differently in real life. Your best intentions can turn to desperation when confronted with a situation where you KNOW that your life hangs in the balance.

Center of mass hits do not always stop. Your best martial arts strike, joint lock, immobilization technique or counter holds mean nothing to someone who has just taken a good meth hit.

And your first line of defense is always a good offense. When outside, it is actually fairly to discern between someone who is actually approaching to ask directions and someone who is approaching to harm you.

And, the 21 foot rule is a MINIMUM safe distance. And no, you don't "draw down" on everybody in your space; only those who have demonstrated intent and show the capacity to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

The average person will take .25 to .30 seconds just to recognize that you are doing something let alone identify it as threatening. More time lapses (another .2 - .3 seconds) as they decide to shoot or not.

We're not talking about the average person here. We're talking about the average armed robber.

The average armed robber already has a history of violent assault; he or she has crossed that line, frequently more than once.

The average armed robber compared to the average law abiding citizen is like comparing a great white shark to a tuna.

The average armed robber is NOT guided or fed by the milk of human kindness. And they are NOT your average person.

These people are usually athletic--more so than you or I. They frequently have already made up their mind to HURT or KILL you before your encounter even begins. The hurt part frequently comes first, to induce fear--not just being scared, but mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear.

You try to draw on an armed robber who has the drop on you, and I guarantee you with almost total certainty that you WILL catch a bullet.

Thus, your best defense is to be aware and alert--Condition orange. Know who is around you, and who is able to hurt you. Be aware of your surroundings and be ready to take action, fight or flee when applicable.

Lurper
February 10, 2007, 10:16 AM
Training is always a good thing; practice in the gym/dojo/dojang/home is also good. It is true that you will react in the manner in which you train.

I agree, the problem is that most gun owners don't train at all. Also, along with training in technique you need to train your mind as well.

Everything that looks good on paper or in the gym tends to fare much differently in real life. Your best intentions can turn to desperation when confronted with a situation where you KNOW that your life hangs in the balance.

Why is it that people want to assume that 1. everyone when confronted with a life threatening situation is going to be scared? 2. that fear somehow diminishes thought, coordination, skill, etc.?

Neither is true. Having BTDT several times, I don't ever recall being scared and every time it happened, my senses seemed hyper-acute. Also, several of my friends (LEO and military) say the same thing. Usually as the situation unfolds quickly, you don't have time to be scared. That also illustrates the importance of mental training. If you already know your response in your mind, you don't have to try to figure it out while you are in the situation.

Center of mass hits do not always stop. Your best martial arts strike, joint lock, immobilization technique or counter holds mean nothing to someone who has just taken a good meth hit.

True, which is the reason I don't advocate fighting with them. It is also the reason I train people to fire several shots, not just one. Fire until the attacker stops the attack.


And your first line of defense is always a good offense. When outside, it is actually fairly to discern between someone who is actually approaching to ask directions and someone who is approaching to harm you.

The first sentance is excellent, but the type of thinking in the rest of the paragraph will get you killed. Six people walk past you on the sidewalk, a guy opens the door for you as you enter the store. Can you really honestly say that you can easily assess the intent of everyone who comes within 21 ft of you? How is it easy to discern? Do all criminals wear criminal badges or signs? Are they all tweakers, gang bangers, addicts? No one with ill-intent ever dresses or looks like you and I? :confused:



And, the 21 foot rule is a MINIMUM safe distance. And no, you don't "draw down" on everybody in your space; only those who have demonstrated intent and show the capacity to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

Again, you'd have to show me how you can practice that rule all day every day. Also, intent usually isn't demonstrated until the attack has already begun, capacity may not be demonstrated at all or until it's too late.


We're not talking about the average person here. We're talking about the average armed robber.

The average armed robber already has a history of violent assault; he or she has crossed that line, frequently more than once.

The average armed robber compared to the average law abiding citizen is like comparing a great white shark to a tuna.

The average armed robber is NOT guided or fed by the milk of human kindness. And they are NOT your average person.

These people are usually athletic--more so than you or I. They frequently have already made up their mind to HURT or KILL you before your encounter even begins. The hurt part frequently comes first, to induce fear--not just being scared, but mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear.

While some of what you say is true, not all of it is. The average armed robber is no diffferent as far as reaction times than the average person. Frequently, their reactions are slower because they get high before robbing someone because it takes the edge off.

Most are nowhere near as athletic as I am even at 48. Many are tweakers or junkies who are strung out. Some of the gangsters are in good shape, but these are things that can be assesed by observing their actions. Many don't want to hurt or kill you, they just want to intimidate you into compliance. Many have not made that decision before they accost you - if they had, they would've just walked up, shot you and taken your money. Also, there is no such thing as "mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear." Your comments seem to make the criminal larger than life - they are not.


You try to draw on an armed robber who has the drop on you, and I guarantee you with almost total certainty that you WILL catch a bullet.

I can guarantee you that I will not. Having been a professional shooter for many years, I have fired more rounds in a year than most people will fire in two lifetimes, I've trained, shot and competed with some of the greatest shooters in the world, so it's safe to say that there aren't a lot of people out there who possess the skill at arms that I do (kind of like your shark/tuna analogy). That is why I said " If you haven't achieved a master class level of proficiency then don't even try it."


Thus, your best defense is to be aware and alert . . .
Absolutely, and augment that with proper and ongiong training.

BillCA
February 10, 2007, 09:01 PM
Most are nowhere near as athletic as I am even at 48. Many are tweakers or junkies who are strung out. Some of the gangsters are in good shape, but these are things that can be assesed by observing their actions. Many don't want to hurt or kill you, they just want to intimidate you into compliance. Many have not made that decision before they accost you - if they had, they would've just walked up, shot you and taken your money.

And even that tweaker can get into your blind spot and throw a hard punch that puts you down. If he's intent on getting your valuables, he'll hit you several more times to disorient you while grabbing for your wallet.

JohnKSa
February 10, 2007, 09:21 PM
Neither is true. Having BTDT several times, I don't ever recall being scared and every time it happened, my senses seemed hyper-acute. I think we've touched on this before. You posted this on another active thread: "I guess the 3 or 4 million rounds I have fired as a professional shooter, instructor and consultant does show a complete and utter lack of understanding of marksmanship. "

The average gun enthusiast won't fire 10,000 rounds in his lifetime. You've exceeded the lifetime number of rounds that the average gun enthusiast will shoot by a factor of three or four HUNDRED.

While I'm sure that everything you're saying is true for YOU, the idea that everything will also be true for someone who practices hundreds of times less than you do is not at all realistic.

Lurper
February 10, 2007, 10:17 PM
Yeah, J you're right, this has come up in the past and it is a valid argument to a point. But, I have always contended that people should train much more often than they do. I also pointed out that you need to know what your skill level is and that should dictate your response. Also, I did say that if you haven't practiced the skill to at least a master class level you shouldn't try it. Isn't that fair enough?

And even that tweaker can get into your blind spot and throw a hard punch that puts you down. If he's intent on getting your valuables, he'll hit you several more times to disorient you while grabbing for your wallet.
Absolutely right Bill and they can walk in your blind spot and cap you just as easily. I was merely countering the assumption in the post that most armed robbers are "more athletic than you . . ."

JohnKSa
February 10, 2007, 11:11 PM
But, I have always contended that people should train much more often than they do.No question about that--at least in my case, I know that I need a lot more practice and should also get some more training. I also pointed out that you need to know what your skill level is and that should dictate your response. Also, I did say that if you haven't practiced the skill to at least a master class level you shouldn't try it. Isn't that fair enough?More than fair enough. ;) A man's gotta know his limitations. --Dirty Harry

Powderman
February 10, 2007, 11:55 PM
I can guarantee you that I will not. Having been a professional shooter for many years, I have fired more rounds in a year than most people will fire in two lifetimes, I've trained, shot and competed with some of the greatest shooters in the world, so it's safe to say that there aren't a lot of people out there who possess the skill at arms that I do (kind of like your shark/tuna analogy). That is why I said " If you haven't achieved a master class level of proficiency then don't even try it."


Uh huh.

Pardon the skepticism, sir....

but firing rounds on paper, steel or cardboard does not equal firing rounds at people, or having them fire at YOU.

It also sounds like you have been lucky enough to never have been the victim of violent, all-out attack.

And as far as the last post about being able to tell WHO is likely to attack you, and WHERE they will do it, I'll say this: Where I grew up, had to go to school, to the store, and live, if you could NOT spot someone who was up to no good really fast, you did not last too long.

My cousin was a Vietnam veteran; served with the 13th Special Forces Group and did three tours. He was HUGE--and also went to prison for murder. He got out, and was still someone you would NOT want to play with. I would say that he possessed master-class skills.

Unfortunately, the two 16 year olds who murdered him--by stabbing him over 90 times on a dark Chicago street--didn't think much of his training.

As far as your round count, well, you're a much more prolific shooter than I. I believe that my total rond count would probably be no more than a couple hundred thousand--and that includes 15 years active duty firing machineguns of all types and calibers.

As far as handguns, well, I've pulled a trigger a few times or so.

In closing, I will tell you this, from the point of someone who has been there, done that, and seen it from the aspects of a victim, AND as a cop...

If your attitude is anything like your post, I hope you never are the victim of a real, focused, determined attack. Because you will end up either dead or in the hospital for a long time with that mindset.

G-Cym
February 11, 2007, 01:44 AM
Lurper, do you happen to have a tactical wheelbarrow?

Lurper
February 11, 2007, 02:10 AM
but firing rounds on paper, steel or cardboard does not equal firing rounds at people, or having them fire at YOU.
The mechanics are the same no matter what the target. The only thing that is different is the environment. And yes, I have BTDT more than once.

And as far as the last post about being able to tell WHO is likely to attack you, and WHERE they will do it, I'll say this: Where I grew up, had to go to school, to the store, and live, if you could NOT spot someone who was up to no good really fast, you did not last too long.
That's fine if you apply it to junkies, tweakers and gang bangers, but what about the Bundys, Gacys and Dahmers of the world. They looked no different than the average person and in Bundy's case were quite hansome and charming. Again, you can't always judge a person by how they look - nor can you assess their intent or propensity for violence.

My cousin was a Vietnam veteran; served with the 13th Special Forces Group and did three tours. He was HUGE--and also went to prison for murder. He got out, and was still someone you would NOT want to play with. I would say that he possessed master-class skills.

Unfortunately, the two 16 year olds who murdered him--by stabbing him over 90 times on a dark Chicago street--didn't think much of his training.

As far as your round count, well, you're a much more prolific shooter than I. I believe that my total rond count would probably be no more than a couple hundred thousand--and that includes 15 years active duty firing machineguns of all types and calibers.

As far as handguns, well, I've pulled a trigger a few times or so.

I never said that my skill level made me invincible. What I did say is that it is possible to draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can hit you, I can and have proven it. I also acknowledge that I am a 1%er, so perhaps my solution does not work for 99% of the shooters out there. If you train and master the techniques, they will work. There is much more to than the number of rounds a person has fired.

If your active duty was with the Army, then you can tell what I did by my member name.

In closing, I will tell you this, from the point of someone who has been there, done that, and seen it from the aspects of a victim, AND as a cop...

If your attitude is anything like your post, I hope you never are the victim of a real, focused, determined attack. Because you will end up either dead or in the hospital for a long time with that mindset.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, even your own opinions about me. But as I mentioned earlier, there are people who have checked me out and can tell you that I do posses the skills that I claim to. As to the rest, you should at least base your opinions about how I would handle myself on maybe a bit of research. I have BTDT on several occasions, so while my opinion is based mainly on my experience and that of several friends and not the entire world, I can say I have survived quite well with my mindset and so far thanks to my training, skill, luck, the grace of God and yes, my mindset I have prevailed in every situation.

odessastraight
February 11, 2007, 04:58 PM
Well, my active duty time was with the USMC instead of the USA, but I do know about long range patrol rations; much lighter than the regular issue C-rats (MREs now). Crunchy without water, but still good chow. I know, somewhat, of your background and have no doubt that you are better trained for an armed confrontation than the average bloke. I mean, probably not quite as well trained as USMC Force Recon, but yeaaaaah, fairly well trained.

OK, to your quandry stated in your initial post. I think it's mostly a question of comfort. To some folks the odds seem so slim of having to use a ccw that they are willing to sacrifice effectiveness for comfort. You'll hear this concept expressed in many of the ways you've mentioned (any gun better than no gun... they're all about the same... & etc), but it really boils down to them being more comfortable. That's OK, by me and some of them will even admit it.

Daniel BOON
February 14, 2007, 05:07 PM
"GET THE **** AWAY FROM ME" as loud as she can; it seems to break their concentration, and they go away. we live in a large city that caters to vagrants and illegals, so we get lots of practise;
for some reason though, they don't bother us when we have our Rottweiler with us.:) go figure.