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Samurai
January 12, 2007, 02:49 PM
Hey, all.

I'm pretty shaken up, today. I pride myself on living in the sleepy-little town of Knoxville, Tennessee. It's a quiet little football-town, that just happens to have a State University close by. (Go Vols!)

This weekend, a couple, age 23 and 21, was carjacked in the wee-hours of Sunday morning, while heading to a friend's apartment. He was shot, body burned on the side of a railroad track. She was taken to a house in the run-down part of town, tortured and raped for two days, and finally murdered.

It looks like they've caught the guys who did it. Read about it here:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_5275295,00.html

At hearing about this in the news, I've essentially lived the last few days in what can only be described as a blind rage. I cannot believe that monsters like this live in my quiet little city. Near my home, where I am supposed to marry my wife and raise my family!

The questions I want to tackle in this thread are as follows:
1. Name every technique you know of for carjacking someone.
2. How do you defend against it?

The gauntlet is thrown.

badbob
January 12, 2007, 03:06 PM
Samurai, you forgot to put a link to the article so I found one that tells the story. Sorry to hear about the carjacking. I've been to Knoxville many times and never felt threatened (also a Vols fan). It goes to show that bad things can happen anywhere. Link:http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=5925539&nav=menu7_2

badbob

Prophet
January 12, 2007, 03:27 PM
I would say be very vigilant ALWAYS if you aren’t already. Get some good heavy tint on your windows kind of like what’s on some home windows that don’t allow them to break or shatter very easy. Also if you vehicle is equipped with the automatic locks when you put it in drive that’s good if not just make sure to lock your doors when driving don’t ever know when someone might run up to your car at a red light. Keep your carry piece close and ready to go if you do carry a shoulder holster works good while driving because the gun is always level with you and you just cross draw and you have it out instead of maybe if you carry in the 4-5 O’clock position the gun might be under you and if you have a seatbelt on it will be hard to get out. Anyways stay safe

Samurai
January 12, 2007, 03:38 PM
Fixed the link. Darned html code...

Doug.38PR
January 12, 2007, 03:45 PM
Sorry to hear that Samuri. My aunt and uncle live just outside Knoxville in Clinton, Tennessee. Glad they caught them. People in Tennessee are such laid back friendly people, like most other Southerners. Hate it hearing about things like this happening such sleepy communities.

buzz_knox
January 12, 2007, 03:50 PM
Knoxville isn't the nice little town it used to be, or that we wish it was. I'm just glad this one may be on the way to being solved, as opposed to the Johnia Berry murder (which happened at my old apartment complex).

This hits very close to home, as I may very well have gone to church with the young lady. And the young gentlemen is being buried in my hometown of Claxton. To top it off, you can basically see the crime scene from my office.

Samurai
January 12, 2007, 03:54 PM
Words don't fail me. I've got plenty of words. I just can't say them in polite company. Since this has happened, I've had all kinds of unfriendly stuff floating around in my head.

I train people to meditate, relax, to clear their minds in the midst of fighting, combat, stressful situations. Heck, it's practically what got me through law school. But, I just can't get this one out of my head. It's constant, and it's crippling. How could this be allowed? Here?!?

Thanks, Prophet. Any other thoughts on the questions at hand?

SpiritWalker
January 12, 2007, 03:56 PM
It can happen anywhere, at any time but I am saddened and outraged whenever it does. "Be prepared" is always good advice but asking yourself “how prepared” do you want to be is better. The way the world seems to be going I’d start checking into as much training as you can get.

SCARS (http://www.scars.com/SCARS/dacMain.jsp)

xjmox14x
January 12, 2007, 03:57 PM
Yes, always leave your car doors locked while driving for safety issues. Not only for this particular issue, but also, it is a lot safer in that no one inside the car can open the door accidentally. It's just a great habit to get into.

If you do find yourself in the position of someone approaching the car, never roll down the window, just drive. Think about it, why would someone approach a vehicle? Probably not asking for directions because he won't be in a vehicle himself. However, if he was just looking for directions, let the next person worry about it. Don't put yourself in that situation.

If you find yourself where the man is next to the car with a gun drawn, usually I would say to comply with everything he says. However, don't ever forget this. He is holding a weapon that shoots 100-200gr. bullets, but your car is a 3000 lb. weapon. Duck your head and step on the gas. Don't stop for any reason. If he's in front of the car with a gun, show him just how hard 3000 lb. can hit.

Other than this, there's not a whole lot you can do. Carjackings happen in split seconds. Having your doors locked constantly and your windows up with give you a little more time to react accordingly.

Nortonics
January 12, 2007, 04:16 PM
Davidson, his brother Letalvis Cobbins, 24, George Thomas, 23, and Boyd all have been arrested in connection with the slayings.

Gee, such a family of high moral standards. Sounds to me like mommy and daddy could use a good flogging from the survivor relatives for the fine job of bringing up such scum - and don't gimme' no crap about "how could they have prevented it?" :barf:

Capt Charlie
January 12, 2007, 04:23 PM
Funny thing is, while dealing with a carjacking is an absolute nightmare, preventing them is relatively easy.

As some here said, keeping your doors locked and windows up is paramount. Remember to keep your vehicle's heater/AC in good shape so that you won't be tempted to open those windows.

Keep your rear view mirrors adjusted so that you can see someone's approach back along both sides of your vehicle.

And most importantly, when in stop & go traffic, never pull right up on the bumper of the car in front of you. Always try to leave a car length or two in front of you so that you have an escape route. Stopped at a red light when someone approaches? Run it if you can do so safely.

When you see someone suspicious approaching your vehicle, undo your seatbelt for maneuverability, and if you have a weapon, don't brandish it unless you have to, but have it ready to deploy in a heartbeat.

It's best to keep in mind that carjackings end in injury or death to the victims much more often than during robberies, so don't act until you have to, but when you do, act decisively.

HangFire83
January 12, 2007, 05:04 PM
Sorry to hear about the horrible situation in your town.

I think capt charlie summed it up pretty well. In regards to the stop and go traffic and leaving space between you and the vehicle in front of you; I am reminded of my drivers ed classes and learning the rule of stopping short enough to be able to clearly see the bottom of the tires on the car ahead of you. The logic being if the car in front of you stalled you could get around it but it also applies here.

Baba Louie
January 12, 2007, 05:04 PM
Horrible and sad.
Hmmm
Maybe the state will be able to keep them locked up for a good while now... like forever.

The questions I want to tackle in this thread are as follows:
1. Name every technique you know of for carjacking someone.
2. How do you defend against it?

This from an old THR thread (happened to me back in 2004) kinda long too...
Interestingly enough, I had my first weird encounter with an attempted Carjack this Sat morning only three blocks from my house here in LV. 8:10 AM I was headed to a jobsite meeting (and running late, naturally) had my fanny pack w/ me, driver side window down, just lit a cigarette, elbow had "locked" the door, all others locked, going 20+ mph in a 25 zone approaching an elementary school double crosswalk, no other cars in the immediate vicinity at the moment...

Two young latinos in the second crosswalk walking from my right to my left... so I slowed down. They also slowed down, one continuing walking past the centerline of the street and stopped, the second paused directly in my path... eye contact made with both, fanny pack (which had been on passenger seat) somehow found it's way into my lap, little hairs on back of neck began crawling. I waved the guy in front of me to cross, he waved back stop, (I was creeping very slowly) fanny pack opened, right hand on glock still in lap, first guy said "We need your car" left the crosswalk and walked up to the door as I approached the second crosswalk.

I said "Tell him to move NOW" and swerved left a little over centerline (no oncoming traffic, no one in rear mirror behind me) making #1 back up, gave the little Hyundai some gas as #2 jumped out of the way and drove on, watching in my rear view mirror as they flipped me off.

20 - 25 seconds max.

Hmmm, methinks they was up to no good. Went to jobsite meeting and explained encounter to client who happens to be a Deputy Attorney General for Nevada. Was told it's a really common method of either getting a car or getting a slight injury and insurance award if #2 is bumped as you try to get away. He called someone at Metro for me, gave them my tag#, location, descriptions, yada and we moved on to talk about his house framing, etc.

This I was told by my client, they're in the crosswalk and have the right-of-way only if they remain a pedestrian crossing the street. As soon as they leave the white striped zone or display intent other than crossing the street (loitering, creating a traffic hazard in the street, attempted car jack, etc) they can be found in violation of something that allows police action.

At no time did anyone see the glock. They each had a potential witness to corrobarate story, I did not. You could say I left the scene of a crime (vehicle traveling through pedestrian laden crosswalk) and had I called Metro myself I would have had to explain it all to them and would have been late for my meeting (I'm sure client would've understood). Had I displayed the gun... who knows? Moot point. I had it if I needed it.

Imagine you were an unarmed 16 year old kid or a 40 year old woman in my place (I live with two such who also drive).

Please keep your doors locked, eyes on the road, in condition yellow, off the cell phone, both hands free (I chucked the just lit up cigarette as #1 approached my door). I say all this because my G/F does NOT lock her door (nor do her boys) she is in perpetual condition white or whatever is below that and oftentimes when she gets in the car she fires up a smoke AND the cell phone at the same time. I HATE having her drive and insist I drive whenever we go somewhere in the same car. We discussed this incident at length, and as I said this occured three blocks from our house in a residential zone (for those of you in LV, between Spring Mountain and Flamingo on Torrey Pines at the Katie intersection).

And yet, She thinks me paranoid when we go shopping because I always rubberneck the parking lot when we park going in, I hate parking next to vans or big SUV's, I take too long getting out of the car as I look around and never park close enough to the door for her and when we come out with a full shopping cart and transfer the load into the car, I stop and look around before I stick my head in the trunk or back seat.

It's just a Hyundai...

Now, if the guy (#1) had said "We need directions" or "we need some help" who knows? Their hands were empty at the moment. My right hand was not.

So...back to Knoxville... 3 guys, maybe a handgun or two, one centers in front of you stopping you because you're a nice guy who doesn't want to run over anyone and maybe the other two crowd your doors, maybe w/ guns in hand. What DO YOU DO?

While I think I know what I'd do, it'd have to be done fast, it'd be horrible. Maybe someone would get shot or shot at. Quite possibly someone would get run over.

It happens so fast but seems to take forever. Maybe the rest of your life...

Prophet
January 12, 2007, 05:24 PM
So...back to Knoxville... 3 guys, maybe a handgun or two, one centers in front of you stopping you because you're a nice guy who doesn't want to run over anyone and maybe the other two crowd your doors, maybe w/ guns in hand. What DO YOU DO?

I simply wouldn't be a nice guy anymore and the guy infront of my truck would either move or become a speed bump because when I smash on the gas in my truck it moves very quickly.

cloudcroft
January 12, 2007, 07:21 PM
That sure does make me angry!

POSs like those animals should be killed SLOWLY...then sent to hell.

Too bad LOTS of people STILL don't and NEVER WILL think this can happen to them and so aren't armed or even vigilant.

It's a hell of a way to learn.

-- John D.

M14fan
January 12, 2007, 07:33 PM
I am saddened to learn of such an atrocity. I lived for many years just outside of Oak Ridge and made many a trip to Knoxville. I am saddened to know that my tax dollars are often spent to 'rehab' such degenerate creatures and release them to do such things again. And I am sorry that more people don't teach their children that your vehicle is 3000 pounds of weaponry if you don't mind using it.

Awareness is paramount! You MUST be aware of your surroundings at all times and remember that being to 'nice' to run over an assailant or hit another vehicle in the course of avoiding a carjacking can leave you dead or worse.

threegun
January 12, 2007, 07:43 PM
Thats why we carry guys.

Let me just say that if I could borrow Saddam Hussein's body grinder they would get it feet first.

I find it particularly disgusting that this is the first I hear of this incident. Yet the Duke players are still fighting for their freedom and plastered all over the news. That makes me even sicker. The liberal media stinks.

M14fan
January 12, 2007, 07:44 PM
You owe animals everywhere an apology. The corrupt, disgusting, fetid, festering, purulent, loathsome, feculent creature that perpetrated this act is unworthy to be equated with human, animal, or even microbial life forms.

You are correct though, there is no evil dreamt of in the darkest corners of hell that are bad enough to serve as sufficient punishment.

revjen45
January 12, 2007, 07:51 PM
A friend I worked with said he was approaching a stop sign at an off ramp (late 70s in the L.A. area) when a man jumped in front of his car in an obvious attempt to get him to stop. He stepped on the gas and knocked the moron thru the air. It turned out that the moron had car trouble and couldn't get anyone to stop, so he decided to just jump in front of the next car. Since the recipient of the vehicular kinetic energy had deliberately placed himself in peril my friend prevailed in the end. Ask Reginald Denny about stopping for someone who gets in front of your vehicle to get you to stop, particularly in the Great Southern Kalifornia Cesspool. Unfortunately I work for an employer who bans guns in cars so I can't pack on the way to work, but at any other time I am armed. I do lock my doors and try to stay alert, and I have no qualms about whatever harm befalls an assailant. These sub humans deserve to be flogged within an inch of their lives for every one of the several violent felonies they committed (obviously this would require more than one session with the knout), before they are hanged for murder.

BillCA
January 12, 2007, 07:54 PM
I'm going to list the things that set off my radar that something may be about to happen. Let's see if this rings anyone else's radar

On the Highway
1. Person(s) approaching while you're stopped in traffic.
2. Bogus Pedestrians (as mentioned above-a new one on me)
3. Bogus Accident - with person(s) walking towards stopped traffic
4. Bump & rob - minor bump at stoplight & rob when you get out to inspect
5. Idiot Stop - When that "idiot" ahead stops for no reason other than to let his friends rush you.

Parking lots & Garages
1. Being approached when you near a particular car
2. Persons loitering in the area
3. Persons walking aimlessly in the parking lot (lost or "hunting")
4. Being approached while loading goods into car/trunk
5. Approaching with flyers or leaflets or for "signature gathering"
6. Persons asking for a "jump start"
7. Being followed from store exit towards your car.

Around Home
1. Unrecognized people walking nearby
2. Person leaving a nearby car to approach you
3. Anyone unknown loitering
4. Unusual cars or vans nearby, esp. with darkened windows
5. Pedestrian asking for directions (most are in cars)
6. Anyone approaching your garage/carport as you prepare to exit car or leave.

A little profiling - Most car-jackers are likely to be younger males, under 30. Dress and demeanor may be obvious. Targets are people who are not aware of surroundings and/or may be easily intimidated (looking straight ahead, elderly, etc). Though be wary of females who have a male partner nearby.

Countermeasures:
1. keep your gun hand free. Carry groceries or goods in your weak hand.
2. stay aware of others when leaving a store/mall
3. Keep house keys separate from car keys (in case your keys are taken)
4. Return to the store or mall if you think someone is hinkey.

Odd Job
January 12, 2007, 08:03 PM
When I read that story posted by Samurai it sounded like one of dozens of similar stories coming out of South Africa. In fact I had a little bet with myself whether it was South Africans involved. Seems the mentality is there but not the nationality.

This is what the ordinary South African fears and has to contend with every day, people. And it is why I and many of my colleagues went on dedicated anti-hijacking courses. In any other country you would do a double-take if you saw a car parked on a shooting range and watched two paramedics, a radiographer, a radiologist and an orthopaedic surgeon jumping in and out of the car and firing from within the car at various targets around the vehicle.
Anti-hijacking is also part of just about every driving instructor's resume you will come across in Johannesburg today. Electronics, immobilizers, in-car defense mechanisms and the like are all influenced by hijacking. I could produce about 20 pages here today on this subject. Everybody I know has had a relative or a friend carjacked in South Africa. It got so bad in the late 90s that I resorted to driving with my pistol on the steering wheel at night and during the day I would draw if ANYONE approached the vehicle. Stopping at lights: no way! If it is late, I don't stop.

One night I almost fired on a policeman because he tailed me down a dark street and did two left turns (which signalled to me I was being tailed). He had no lights, and I couldn't see any markings on the vehicle, which was a white utility vehicle that we call a 'bakkie.' When I slowed, he slowed, when I sped up he did the same, so in the end I put the gear in neutral, let the car roll and undid my seatbelt and twisted round in my seat, pistol in hand, door slightly ajar. he couldn't see the gun because I had it up against the headrest and I was ready to get out. Then he put the blues on and got out. I had been ready to start the proceedings.
I was not amused and told him he was a fool for tailing me like that. He said it was because I had out-of-town plates :rolleyes:

Johannesburg is the carjacking capital of the world. The problem is that you can prevent a lot of carjackings on the road by altering your driving and being extra vigilant, but everybody has to stop their car when they get home, or when they pull up for fuel, or when they get to work. And that's when they can get you. They also often employ devious means to get you to stop on the open road. Here is an example:

A consultant radiologist was called out to report a brain scan late one night. On his way to the hospital, he suddenly came upon a child lying motionless, right in the middle of the road. The doctor (Jon) stopped and got out to see if the kid was dead or badly injured. As he approached the kid, the kid suddenly made a miraculous recovery and jumped up and darted into the bushes at the side of the road. Just then Jon saw a movement in the corner of his eye and he realised what had happened. He doesn't remember how, but he managed to get back to the car before two shadows that emerged from the bushes could get to the vehicle or him. He slammed the driver's door shut and stepped on it (luckily he had left the car running). When he got to the hospital, he parked the car at the security office and got out, quite shaken. When he opened the door he could see scraps of finger tips wedged in the door frame and a long blood streak from the door edge all the way down the side of the car! He had been millimetres away from having the door forced open.
Carjacking is so bad and so frequent in SA that it is the reason why I (and many others) have drawn our firearms the most times while being in a vehicle. It is just a shame I couldn't afford the Blaster system, because I would have loved to have burnt a hijacker. They have caused the worst misery to the people of SA and I have seen the results in the trauma unit. We've lost colleagues, we've had visitors from overseas maimed, and we've had colleagues with terrible injuries from these vermin.
It is a subject I feel quite strongly about, and I can tell you that if I ever get the chance to face down a carjacker and I find the circumstances amenable, someone is going to take some nasty damage.

tony pasley
January 12, 2007, 08:57 PM
It is a reminder that no place is safe. The tragic part is the inocents that are claimed. We must provide our own security because we are the only one where we are.

armedandsafe
January 12, 2007, 10:51 PM
Two carjacking stories. Each happened in San diego in the 80s.

Young lady at a stoplight and the jacker reached through the open window, grabbed her by the neck with one hand and rached across her to steering column for the keys. Her boyfirend, in the passenger seat, flipped out his Buck and cut the perp's throat. :D

I left a grassroots meeting late at night and pulled out of the parking lot to head home. A car whipped in front of me and another popped up behind, pinning me into the left turn lane. Two fellows jumped out of the car in front, one jumped out of the car in back and all three headed for me. I rolled out of the car to the ground and rolled back under the car, taking the keys with me and pulling my carry piece as I did so. the attackers were so busy trying to get at me under the car, they didn't notice about 10 of my fellow grassroots enthusiasts coming across the parking lot and the street on a dead run. :D This was before the day of cell phones, so we had to use my CB to call, "Crime in progress, shots fired" into the SDPD.

Now, several of you will chastise me for leaving the car. This particular group had already jacked several cars over the previous weeks. Their tactic was to approach the car and shoot through the windows, without giving the drivers and passengers a chance to respond. Staying in the car had not worked for the previous victims, so I was trying something differently. There are a couple of perps somewhere with very bad ankles.

Pops

M14fan
January 12, 2007, 11:11 PM
I won't be one to chastise for leaving the car. Only if you had passengers at risk would I scold. Sounds to me like you used a strategy that worked and I am a big fan of stuff that works. Good job.

Prophet
January 13, 2007, 03:08 AM
Armedandsafe you actually shot the dudes in the ankles (Kudos to you) but did you get in trouble for that? Well sux for them shouldn't have messed with a ccw carrier.

Glockoma
January 13, 2007, 05:35 AM
Had the perpetrators been white and the victims black -- a rather more unlikely scenario, granted -- the media and the race-baiting extortonist crew (Jackson, Sharpton, etc) would be in an uproar and out for blood.

As it is, nothing's happening. Just like with the Wichita / Carr murders.

These murders were a hate crime of the most egregious kind, and the media's perpetual "only white people can commit hate crimes" stance is utterly despicable.


http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2006/07/10/media-and-dog-bites-man/

Slugthrower
January 13, 2007, 07:34 AM
Glockoma, I agree. Hate crimes are stupid. They are as stupid as sexual harassment. A crime is a crime and harassment is just that. Harassment of a sexual nature should be treated the same as an individual harassing another. The hate crime is BS, no matter the race involved should be treated as if race didn't exist. I also think that car jacking should be treated just as home invasion is.

These people that engage in car jacking tend to be gang types in general. I see gang members as domestic terrorists. I wonder if this war on fear should include MS 13 , Bloods, Crips and all the other moron gangs. Yeah, it is a can of virulent worms to be sure. However they are in need of elimination.

Prophet
January 13, 2007, 02:16 PM
Glockoma, I agree. Hate crimes are stupid. They are as stupid as sexual harassment. A crime is a crime and harassment is just that. Harassment of a sexual nature should be treated the same as an individual harassing another. The hate crime is BS, no matter the race involved should be treated as if race didn't exist. I also think that car jacking should be treated just as home invasion is.

These people that engage in car jacking tend to be gang types in general. I see gang members as domestic terrorists. I wonder if this war on fear should include MS 13 , Bloods, Crips and all the other moron gangs. Yeah, it is a can of virulent worms to be sure. However they are in need of elimination.

AMEN...

Old Gaffer
January 14, 2007, 09:52 AM
I train people to meditate, relax, to clear their minds in the midst of fighting, combat, stressful situations. Heck, it's practically what got me through law school. But, I just can't get this one out of my head. It's constant, and it's crippling. How could this be allowed? Here?!?

Here's an important point to keep in mind Samurai: you DID NOT allow this to happen nor did the physical victims - it was forced on you, all of you, totally against your will.

You are a victim in this crime too as a result of its psychological effects on you. Do NOT let this cripple you - get counseling, whether it's formal or informal, but get it nonetheless. This is not your fault, you could neither have stopped it nor predicted it.

And don't get sucker punched into a guilt-trip by those that will tell you "physician, heal thyself" it doesn't work that way in the real world and you deserve better.

All the best,
Rob

pax
January 14, 2007, 11:25 AM
The questions I want to tackle in this thread are as follows:
1. Name every technique you know of for carjacking someone.
2. How do you defend against it?


Friend of mine, Keith, came to visit us several years ago now. Keith was in his early 20's at the time, long-haired and kind of hippyish looking. When he arrived at our house, he was a little bemused and shaken up by what had just happened.

He'd pulled into a convenience store parking lot. There was a guy in the parking lot who looked over at him, scowled, and started flipping him off. Keith was puzzled, couldn't figure out what he'd done to get this guy going, finally decided it was a case of mistaken identity & didn't think anything much more about it. Keith pulled to a stop in the lot, having decided he'd just take himself elsewhere to purchase his soda, when the guy came walking over, still shouting cuss words and flipping him off.

The guy then looked Keith in the eye and slammed both hands down on Keith's hood, as hard as he could. Keith, enraged, popped out of the driver's seat prepared to deck the guy. As Keith exited the vehicle and ran toward the front, the guy ran clear around the car and jumped into the driver's seat.

Keith reached the driver's side door a short split second after the guy got in & closed the door. So Keith started trying to pull the door open, while the guy held the door closed and tried to pop the car into gear at the same time.

Here's the part I like: just then was when Keith's pet akida dog who'd been sleeping in the back seat woke up and WOOFed in the would-be thief's ear. The thief did a double take over his shoulder, and the tug of war he & Keith had been doing over the driver's side door instantly changed its tenor. Where before, the thief and Keith had both been pulling on the door from their respective sides -- Keith to get it open, the thief to keep it closed -- when Bear put in her two cents' worth, Keith & the thief both began pushing on their respective sides -- Keith to keep the thief in place for Bear to deal with, and the thief to escape.

Eventually, the thief jumped out the passenger's side door and was never seen again. Keith stopped at the next fast food place and bought a couple Big Macs for the dog.

Should be pretty obvious how one would avoid or prevent that kind of carjacking attempt. Dealing with it after it is in progress, well, the dog earned her keep. ;)

pax

Samurai
January 14, 2007, 05:04 PM
Oh, for Cripes' Sakes, Glockoma! I was wondering how long it would take before someone turned this into a race thing! Jez! Y'all just can't leave the race card alone, can you!

This wasn't about race. Among the races, we have different cultures. But we are all men. This was not about race. This was about mutation. These four things (there are FOUR of them now that have been charged), are not HUMAN. They are statistical outliers. They are monsters. They are not human. In academia, their mutative disorder would be called psychopathic: their brains do not connect on the same level as ours, such that they do not understand principles of humanity. They behave as animals do, and like a flock of wolves that drifts too close to the pasture, for the benefit of we the many races, these creatures must be systematically flushed out and hunted down.

STOP making this a "race question." Remember, as you read about these devils: These creatures are not representative of any race, creed, or culture. Their behavior defies the cultural norms of every SINGLE sect of humanity. This is neither a black problem, NOR a white problem. This is a problem of an undesirable predator emerging within the human species. When a predator emerges, it must be hunted. With any luck, "our boys in blue" have hunted this pack to extinction.

To pax and others: Thanks for the info and antecdotes. It's good for me to hear about these things, and I will start putting this together in a lecture for my martial arts classes. Keep the conversation coming!

I just sent my fiance back halfway across the country to continue this semester with her Phd. I put her in her rag-top jeep with her luggage, and a small lock-box in the front passenger floor-board. In the lock-box is a Belgian Browning HiPower, 9mm, with 2 full magazines of Corbin 165 gr. +P jacketed hollow points. She doesn't have her CCW, and is insistent about NOT getting one. (It's a strange, twisted "independence" issue for her. Don't ask, because I don't understand it.) Key is in the lock. In a pinch, she can turn the key, flip up the lid, insert magazine, rack and go. If she gets pulled over, it's unloaded, locked in a lock-box, and all she has to do is jerk the key out of the lid before she stops the car. I kissed my girl, shut the door, and made a face like a puppy-dog as she drove away.

I've gotten an update on her. She's halfway there, without incident.

I hate this.

marlboroman84
January 15, 2007, 02:09 AM
Somewhat similar to what happened here in Memphis a few weeks ago. A girl comes home about 1 a.m and gets out of her car even though she saw a man approaching her car. The man pulls a gun and forces her back in the car, takes her to the bank and makes her withdraw her cash. Then proceeds to take her back to her apartment, rape her in the van downstairs, then force her in the apartment and tie up her and hey boyfriend while him and his buddy rob the place. I don't know if they got caught yet or not. I hope they don't, I hope they do something stupid at a traffic stop and some cop lights 'em up.

I'm sick of crime, I'm sick of trash, and I'm sick of not being able to read the newspaper or watch tv without wanting to break something. In most these cases there is alot to be said for simple SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, but I'll tell you this much, the person that ever tries that with me or my Fiance' is getting some hollowpoints for their trouble. Death is the only cure for scum PERIOD! :mad:

teejhot.40cal
January 15, 2007, 02:31 AM
In a car jacking, the best defence is to punch the gas. Remember he is on foot and if you punch the gas one of two things is going to happen.
The guy is going to get out of the car, let go, and you are going to drive away from him.
The guy isn't going to let go and you are going to drag him until he does or you find a police officer.



My personal feeling is why fiddle with a 2 lbs piece of metal that you do have in your hand when you are in a 2,000 lbs piece of metal.

miscusi
January 15, 2007, 05:50 AM
All I have to say is that I hope they HANG those freakin ANIMALS up high.

In the town square, and as they swing from the trees, the children beats them like pinatas. :mad:

tharmer
January 15, 2007, 12:49 PM
What an intemperent thread. All you guize who want to judge, convict, and execute...we're in the US. There are rules of law. Deciding that everything is a capital offense is, well, offensive.

If this is just keyboard bravado, pardon me. "HANG those freakin ANIMALS up high." Jeez...give me a break.

-terry

Samurai
January 15, 2007, 01:32 PM
Know what, Terry? If THIS is America? If America is a place where THIS is allowed? If America is a place that accepts THIS as part of its system, then COUNT ME OUT!!!

Personally, I think these four monsters left America quite some time ago.

Oh, and by the way, "intemperent" isn't a word. I think you meant to say "intemperate." And, yes, it is!

armedandsafe
January 15, 2007, 05:59 PM
Pax: Thank you. That was a much needed laugh on this day. If Bear is anything like the Akida a friend of mine owned, I'm surprised the perp got out of the car. :D :D :D

I'm not saying whether I shot anybody in the ankle(s), but those were the injuries delivered to th hospital. Once they fired the first round at me while I was rolling out, there were about 8 or 10 other armed people running to the sound of gunfire. It got real hot for a little while. One of our grassroots members was a deputy, so things were cleaned up quite nicely when the SDPD finally showed up.

Pops

stephen426
January 15, 2007, 07:39 PM
I was getting some Taco Hell really late one night in Gainesville, FL (Go Gators). They screwed up my order so I pulled around to go inside. Three guys were about to cross the parking lot to go inside so I stopped to let them pass. One guy ran up to my window which was still open because I had just gone through the drive through. Even though I did not practice drawing from my center console very often, I had the gun out and at low ready in under 2 seconds. By the time the guy reached my window, I had the gun right next to the steering wheel pointing straight ahead. I did not stick it out the window since he could have tried to grab the gun or slapped it downwards (forcing me to shoot through the door). When he saw the gun, he started making excuses about how he wasn't trying to cause any problems and how he was drunk and got kicked out of a club (yeah... whatever... :rolleyes: ) Anyway, he left without an incident.

One other situation I had was a possible bump and rob or bump and carjack scenario. I was on an exit ramp and there were no other cars on the road. I know my car very well so when the car behind me pulled to within 3 feet (I couldn't see its headlights in my readview mirror), I suspected they were up to no good. This was near Homestead, FL back in the mid 90's (not such a great area). I know this may be brandishing, but I pulled my gun and made a nice wide arc as I pointed towards my back window. That guy must have slammed on his brakes because the distance between up got real big real fast. I cannot be 100% sure that I was about to be car jacked, but the other car was not following my that closely on the highway. Like I said, the exit I took was also not the best area. I guess I could have punched the gas, but I still had to stop when I reached the end of the exit ramp.
Thankfully, nothing happened.

Situational awareness will keep you out of these types of situations most of the time. I won't say all of the time since a determined car jacker can find a way to box you in. I am constantly checking my mirrors and watch for cars that may be tailing me. I work in the restaurant business and one of our managers was followed home and robbed at gun point. The same thing happened to my mother in law just a few months ago (she is also in the restaurant business).

If the poop hits the fan, your reaction should really be based upon the highest probablility of getting out of the situation unharmed. If you are dealing with multiple armed assailants and you are boxed in, you should surrender the car without conflict. You car can be replaced. I would not get in the car with them under any circumstance (especially females). The best thing to do is to run (zig-zag just in case they decide to shoot at you). If you are not boxed in and the assailant is coming from the front or sides, punch the gas. That is why you should never box youself in my stopping right behind the car in front of you. If there are other cars around, honk your horn to attract attention.

If you have already turned off the car and cannot otherwise flee in the car, I would exit the vehicle and then look for a way to re-gain control of it. If you assailant (lone assailant) walks up to you car and sticks a gun in your face, you have little chance of getting your gun out and shooting him. Just comply and do not make any fast motions. The reason more people get injured in carjackings is because you are immobile. There is little room to maneuver and no real cover. The assailant knows where to shoot. Just get out of the car and fake compliance ("please don't hurt me... just take the car..."). If the assailant lets you go, you can simply call the police. Some members of this forum are not willing to use lethal force to protect property and I respect their beliefs. I would however, draw my gun and hold the car jacker for the police. If he pointed his weapon at me, I would shoot. Since I would be out of the car, I would take advantage of his limited mobility and would have the upper hand.

I know it might seem like I have this all planned out, but it is only because I live in Miami where we used to have a serious problem with car jackings. I also work in a mostly cash based business and people I know personally have been followed home and robbed at gun point.

One other thing, if it appears you are being followed, make a few extra turns and confirm you have a tail. Do not under any circumstances drive home unless you can call reinforcements back home. One other thing is to make sure you have a cell phone.

tharmer
January 15, 2007, 07:40 PM
Samurai,
Every place is a place where THIS happens. Every county, every state, every country. Grow up. If you want to leave, I'm not sure the US wouldn't be a better place without your kind of vigilante attitude. Fair play, a reasonable court system, rule of law. What's wrong with that? :(

BTW, I didn't know that you were the spelling police. Sorry but a typo doesn't invalidate the opinion. :D

-terry
Now maybe we can close this thread.

Slugthrower
January 15, 2007, 09:17 PM
Fair and reasonable are very subjective terms. I thought it was about justice and being equatable. Justice is getting back that which was taken away wrongly and punishing the offender accordingly. If you take a life how do you give that life back? Forfeiture of ones life seems equatable.

But then again, maybe we should just feed, clothe, and keep warm the people in our society that murder so that we can feel good about ourselves. Even though they would take your life or your loved ones lives with or without reason. Sympathy for the devil will only get you so far.

tharmer
January 15, 2007, 11:30 PM
You're right, Slug, but we have laws for that. We don't take the law into our own hands and decide who should die and who shouldn't. That's what a jury of your peers is for. I don't disupute that in some cases it ought to be pretty clear (O.J. comes to mind) but we still have to follow the process of law, don't we? Revenge, anger, retribution, all are personal reasons for wanting to kill someone, but those are the antithesis of what the court system tries to eliminate. Guilty or not...not because of personal emotion, but because of the rule of law. I also admit it sometimes sucks, but consider the alternative (does anyone remember the Taliban?).

marlboroman84
January 16, 2007, 10:25 AM
The justice system is flawed. When justice is no longer for the innocent, but for the guilty the justice system no longer applies. Justice is for the innocent, punishment is for the guilty.

I'm not saying being a vigilante is the right course. If you look at history, there are obvious problems with people just screaming "He's guilty!" and then that person being drug out and hung. On the other side though do you want a justice system that lets a murderer or rapist free because of a technicality?

Our criminal justice system has become to soft because of people crying that punishments are to hard. They are not hard enough. In some countries overseas, if you steal, you get your hand chopped off. Needless to say, not alot of theft in those countries. I think any seriously violent crime should be punished by death. Rape, child molestation, murder, and beatings so severe they permanently cripple or disfgure a person. I think for the death penalty to be approved it would have to be a very clear cut case. Especially with rape or child molestation as those two are not always so cut and dried, but if it's proven beyond a single doubt, take them straight to the front of the line buddy.

I think we should bring back public executions as well. Show criminals what waits for them if they keep it up. It may sound barbaric, but so is the rape and murder of an innocent person. Think about that before you come in here with that nonsense you're spewing Terry.

Samurai
January 16, 2007, 11:41 AM
Terry, I think you're really being insensitive, here. I started this thread because this situation has really, personally bothered me. I thought that by talking about it, I might feel better. But, you seem bent on intentionally provoking me. Are you having fun?:( Maybe we should close this one down; it has served its purpose, I think...

For those of you who care, there is a memorial video of the girl posted on YouTube. There's a link on today's page of the Knoxville News Sentinel.

Maybe I'm not being clear on my thoughts, here. I certainly don't advocate the rampant adoption of vigilantism. However, I agree with marlboroman (wow! there's a first, eh buddy?). The system is quite flawed, and I wonder if it is not directly responsible for the evolution of monsters in our society like the monsters who subjected this girl to TWO DAYS of rape, torture, and eventual murder. (This is, of course, AFTER they shot her fiance right in front of her eyes.)

And, before we all get going about the meaning of "justice," let's get in the right frame of mind, here. "Justice" is a catch-phrase; it has no meaning. No action from the Legal System is ever going to bring these two people back. No court of law is going to take away those two days. We can fry them, shoot them, hang them, we can kill those four things a dozen ways, and what's done is still done. "Justice" isn't the point.

The point is that, like a flock on a farm, society must be allowed to grow without predators. When we (and I'm talking about the police and the courts, here; I'm not talking about viginantism) find a predator, we eliminate it. These monsters need eliminating, that's all. I just hope the system is not too flawed to effectuate proper elimination of these four predators.

stephen426
January 16, 2007, 12:06 PM
Our criminal justice system has become to soft because of people crying that punishments are to hard. They are not hard enough. In some countries overseas, if you steal, you get your hand chopped off. Needless to say, not alot of theft in those countries. I think any seriously violent crime should be punished by death. Rape, child molestation, murder, and beatings so severe they permanently cripple or disfgure a person. I think for the death penalty to be approved it would have to be a very clear cut case. Especially with rape or child molestation as those two are not always so cut and dried, but if it's proven beyond a single doubt, take them straight to the front of the line buddy.

I think we should bring back public executions as well. Show criminals what waits for them if they keep it up. It may sound barbaric, but so is the rape and murder of an innocent person.

Our criminal justice system is definately messed up. I have served on several juries and it seems that no one is ever willing to convict. The first was a violation of restraining order case where the defendant admitted to using his car to block in his ex-wife because he "just wanted to speak to her". Duh! If he is not allowed to be within X distance of her, he was clearly in violation of the restraining order. I was chosen to be the alternate since I picked up on that detail and the defendant's lawyer saw me shaking my head. It seems like juries are more afraid of wrongly convicting someone than they are of releasing criminals back on the street.

A second case I was on dealt with battery. The victim clearly had bruises from the injuries (massive black eyes) and there was a witness as well. The victim was white while the defendant was black. The defendant also happened to be a post office supervisor who would have lost all of her benefits had she been convicted. I guess they just figured the white lady was a racist "bleep" and deserved a little smack down. There was no way those injuries were self inflicted and the police were called immediately. My reaction... :barf: You have to pay the consequences of your actions even if the victim was a racist and provoked her.

Capt Charlie
January 16, 2007, 01:22 PM
While there's been some strongly opposing views here, it's at least remained fairly civil, and I thank you for that.

But, it's gotten way off topic for Tactics & Training.

Closed.