View Full Version : Scary Encounter recently.....
January 7, 2007, 05:26 PM
Sorry in advance for the long post.......I am a graduate student in Waco TX, known for high crime rates/poverty/etc so I have heard my fair share of robbery/break in/theft stories from other students in my area.
I was sitting at home the other day, around lunchtime, when someone knocks at the door. I looked out the window and couldnt quite make out who it was, but I definately didnt recognize the guy. He was a black guy and was pacing around outside the door. Not that race should be an issue here, but I live in an area that is 99.9% college students, so someone like that is usually out of place and often suspicious. So I took my .45 to the door with me, looked through the peep hole only to see him waving at me, like he knew I was eyeing him. I opened the door and the guy starts into one of those "hey Im trying to sell magazines so that I can blah blah blah" routines. I listened until he paused long enough for me to say no thanks, but when I did, he started to step inside the apartment. I said again that I wasnt interested in what he had to offer but he kept trying to persuade me, all the while he had one of his feet in the door to where I couldnt close it. I backed up and let the door open on its own, my hand on the .45, and I told him that he had one more chance to leave before I called the police. I think it was fairly obvious that I was armed. He STILL kept trying to persuade me, but he backed out of the doorway and I closed it behind him. I thought about calling the police so that they could watch out for the guy, but I was swamped with schoolwork and didnt bother. I should have....
Later on that day, probably 3 hours later or so, I was going over to a girl friends house to pick her up for church. I was on the phone with her as I was driving to her house. I heard the doorbell in the background and she told me that there was someone at the door. She answered it while still on the phone with me, and sure enough, it was that same guy who I had dealt with earlier. I recognized his voice from my end of the line. She didnt even let him begin his sales pitch and told him that she wasnt interested in what he had to sell. She said "oh my God theres a guy at my door and he is trying to come into my house". She was more concerned with the fact that there was a big black man at her door, and didnt even hear the "magazine subscriptions" part, so as far as she knew this guy was a rapist or robber. (I can hear everything going on over the phone at this point). I was about 45 seconds away from her house at this point, fortunately. I hurried as fast as I could to get there, even though I knew she was probably in less danger than she thought, but either way, no girl should be subjected to that kind of treatment.
I get to her house and the door is open and I see no signs of the magazine guy. (she had hung up the phone at this point) I started to worry, and took my USP from the console of my truck (haha call me paranoid but I've got guns everywhere) and went into the house. She was backed into the kitchen and he was standing there in the living room trying to convince her that she needed a subscription to Ebony or something like that. I was furious at this point, it was definately the same guy that was at my home earlier, and this time he was INSIDE her house, UNWANTED, AFTER being asked to leave. Now I'm no expert on the law, but I felt like I had every right to level my pistol at this guy and demand that he leave immediately. I was nervous also, but this guy recogized me and his reaction was pretty funny actually. He was probably shocked to see the same guy who he had harrassed earlier in the day. I told him to stay put (the gun was visible) while I called the police. I do volunteer work and have been actively involved with the local police force for the past couple of years, so I dialed them and asked for one of the guys who I knew would be on duty. It turned out that they had actually had a few people complain about the same guy, but the police couldnt locate him in time I guess. We were already late, so we left after the officer took a brief statement. They had the guy out on the curb cuffed, but that was the last I saw. I haven't had a chance yet to ask them what exactly he was charged with if anything.
It was a pretty nerve wracking experience, for me and her, and I think that I acted reasonably and accordingly given the situation. The officers apparently thought so too, because I didnt recieve any criticism for my actions. One officer actually told me that he liked my USP compact :)
I know I probably shouldnt have opened the door in the very first place, but in a way I'm glad I did because I was more prepared for the situation at my girl friends house. Tell me what you guys think about the way I handled this situation, and what you think you might have done instead.....
January 7, 2007, 05:40 PM
I really don't feel informed or qualified enough to comment on some aspects of your story, but I'm glad you were able to respond to your girlfriend so quickly. You may have intervened in something very nasty. Good intuition or observations on your part. Since the guy was cuffed, maybe he got a little uncooperative with police or maybe if you find out it was something else you could let us know. Way to keep yourself and others safe!
January 7, 2007, 05:48 PM
Since the guy was cuffed, maybe he got a little uncooperative with police
I thought all suspects are handcuffed when arrested...no matter how cooperative (guess except for the rich guys)
January 7, 2007, 05:54 PM
that could be, I don't know.... In my mind I was imagining them questioning him and he didn't want to stay put. I was looking at it this way because the origional poster never said they arrested the person.
January 7, 2007, 06:01 PM
As far as i know, they took him in for questioning once they realized he was the same guy who had been complained about previously. I dont know if any charges were filed. I'll be up at the station sometime soon and I'll try and find out.
January 8, 2007, 10:05 AM
I think you did the right thing. Personally I'd be a bit cautious on drawing my gun on someone as I want to make sure they are a threat but that's just me, although the nerve of the guy forcing himself into your house would have definitely been more than enough for me to grab my gun and think of it as a home invasion. Good job though.
January 8, 2007, 10:33 AM
Please, you opened the door and let a stranger in with a gun in your hand?? If its true you did the wrong thing and I personally don't even believe it is true. You hear the guys voice on the phone while talking to your girlfriend, there's more baloney here then in a cheap deli. :D
January 8, 2007, 12:08 PM
Kinda hard on the story aren't you AR15fan ?
Your comments sound like a defence attorney.
Brings good thoughts to what might happen if you had given that intruder a few more air inlets.
You may run into a prosecuter that feels like AR15Fan. The next thing you know you are in the pen wondering why you defended your girlfriend.
So, what could have happened if the old boy didn't show up to defend her?
That is the question.
January 8, 2007, 12:42 PM
"Please, you opened the door and let a stranger in with a gun in your hand?? If its true you did the wrong thing and I personally don't even believe it is true. You hear the guys voice on the phone while talking to your girlfriend, there's more baloney here then in a cheap deli. "
No, I took the gun with me to the door, out of sight. It was only removed after the guy entered my home. I have read enough posts on this website to know I'm not the only one who carries a gun to the door when an unexpected visitor knocks. And yes, I could hear him talking over the telephone. The guy was only a couple feet away from her, talking to her. Havent you ever heard someone talking in the background of your telephone conversation? I brought this to the forum to get opinions on how I handled the situation, not to be accused of making up some incident.
January 8, 2007, 01:00 PM
OK, let me put it a little more nicely, if you have a gun in your hand and open a door to a stranger, then shoot him for whatever reason you open yourself up for a premeditated murder charge. Now I know it depends on what state you live in and all, but why open the door? Also, you refer to a "big black man" is a big white man any less dangerous if he is a killer? The whole thing sounds silly and made up to me and that is my opinion, you may be 100% on the money but I don't believe so. And I don't represent the forum, just myself. My qualifications? I watch CSI......:D
January 8, 2007, 01:21 PM
Again, I only mentioned the man's race because its what made him stand out as being out of the ordinary in my area. Dont read into that any further.
Again, if you dont want to take me seriously thats fine. I came here seeking answers regarding this incident. I've got better things to do than type up page long narratives for no reason.
Again, this guy and whatever company he works for have made the local news in my area for issues like these. Basically these magazine sales companies hire people practically straight off of the streets and tell them that they have to sell a certain number of subscriptions by days end or they get fired. It results in overly "agressive" salespeople, and I know we werent the only ones who were made uneasy by these peoples selling tactics. I can easily get documentation of this and/or the original incident and post it if its that big of a deal to you.
January 8, 2007, 01:27 PM
CSI???? Give me a break!!!!
WE have to take the story teller at his word. We were not there.
The way I read it...is plausible that you can recognize voices over a cell phone. Done so many times. I'm a little hesitant to agree with the the brandishment of his gun. But then we have to refer to....It is HIS story we were NOT there. Take it or leave it.
January 8, 2007, 01:41 PM
Ok let me get this straight.....There wasn't really any "brandishing" of the gun when the guy came to my door. I had the gun on my waist with a light jacket over it. When he started to step inside, I backed up with my hand on the weapon. He could definately see I had a firearm from where he stood in the doorway, and it was enough to get him to leave. The gun was never actually pulled out. That would have been a little extreme, especially since he had just told me he was selling magazines. This was all mentioned in the original post, but maybe it wasnt clear enough. My apologies.
A gun was drawn however when I got to her house to find the door open and the guy standing at least 10 feet inside. I was scared for her safety at this point, as he had no business doing what he did. I felt as though I did what I had to, given the circumstances, but then again thats why I posted this thread, to get everyones opinions. Thanks guys.
January 8, 2007, 01:55 PM
Nobody got hurt? You weren't charged with anything? Then, you did FINE. Relax, have a col'-beer, and put it out of your mind.
When you start second-guessing yourself (and PARTICULARLY when OTHER PEOPLE start second-guessing YOU), the tendency is to say "How could you have opened the door to a potential would-be rapist/murderer?!?!" I say, "HOGWASH!!!"
Until this guy started acting weird, you had nothing to fear. Until he got weird, as far as you knew, he was just an ordinary Joe, standing on the stoop, selling magazine subscriptions. You had NO reason to fear interacting with this "ordinary guy" at the time you opened the door.
Once he got "weird," you acted perfectly correctly in arming yourself and asserting your right to be free of this threat. You talked him out of your house without incident, and for that, KUDOS TO YOU!!!:D :D
At your friend's house, the guy was a bit more assertive, and you were perfectly within right to exercise your right of self-defense of a third party. You got the guy apprehended, without injury or incident to anyone involved. For that, KUDOS TO YOU!!!:D :D
So, basically, KUDOS TO YOU!!!:D :D You did fine.
January 8, 2007, 01:58 PM
Uh, the CSI is a joke, see the smiley after it? OK, I'm stepping out of this one, hope all works out, bye.....
January 8, 2007, 02:00 PM
Haha well thanks Samurai. I guess the main reason that I asked for some outside opinion is because I knew the officers that responded to the call. I wasnt sure if I would have caught any flak if it had been any other officer that I wasn't personally acquainted with. I'm not afraid to defend myself in a situation like this, but I also want to be sure I'm still on the right side of the law...
January 8, 2007, 02:28 PM
I think you did just fine.:D
AR15FAN do you never carry in your house I go to the door all the time with my gun right on my hip and if I don't have it then I put it the small of the back to see what or who it is.
back the OP I think you did fine. I sometimes take my AR15 to the door with me if its late at night and there shouldn't be someone knocking at my door. What I do inside my house is no one else's business If I want to answer ther door with a gun in hand thats what I'll do. And just like you no one will ever come in my house (or make it very far that is). I had one of these guys come by the other day I was out cleaning my wheels and tires on my truck and good lord he wouldn't leave. He also hit every house on our street too. those guys do have a bad job though. I know I wouldn't do it.
January 8, 2007, 02:45 PM
Actually I don't Prophet, where I live carry is not legal and all things gun related are generally frowned upon. When people I don't know are at the door I use a side window that they can't access to ask who it is and what they want. I usually just tell them I'm not interested, as anyone not from my neighborhood is selling something. I'm a firm don't open the door to strangers.
January 8, 2007, 05:16 PM
First of all never mind AR15, there is one in every group.:D
I have read your story twice and I believe I would have done the same. The guy became a threat when he would not allow you to close the door at your place, you didn't draw on him, although that would have been my next move if he would have entered my home any further. As far as your girlfriends house I would have been in there in a heart beat. I hope your girl friend learned something from this as well and I am glad y'all are all safe.
January 8, 2007, 06:03 PM
Time to move! He knows where BOTH of you live! I would have shot him the 2nd time.
January 8, 2007, 06:21 PM
Tell me what you guys think about the way I handled this situation, and what you think you might have done instead.....You did just fine. Helps knowing a few of the local po-po and the ones you did backed you up as well. Always nice to be able to talk guns with someone else (your HK compact & cop). Always nice to be able to talk about it afterwards with no attorneys or correctional officers present.
Talk to your GF about opening her door to strangers and how it's not always a wise move (I'm sure she gets the point now). Good thing you were so close nearby or else she might have a lifetime subscription to Ebony.
Was he selling any subscriptions to SWAT? :p
Now I'm no expert on the law, but I felt like I had every right to level my pistol at this guy and demand that he leave immediately. Maybe not an expert, but you might want to KNOW the applicable laws and follow Lawdog's advice on knowing a good attorney if your response is handgun oriented...
Sure would put a damper on your life (not to mention salesman's or GF's) if 6
+ lbs of pressure were applied.
January 8, 2007, 06:21 PM
Time to move? I think not. My read would be these two are the last two people this guy is likely to fool with again. Having a gun pointed at you and getting arrested in a place generally gives that place a bad vibe for you ya know? There are much easier targets around than this guy and his gal pal. I think you did good as well. I'd say if you did anything out of line your friends at the PD would at least let you know you pushed things a bit even if they didn't officially rap your knuckles. If being armed and responding to this sort of behavior was the norm instead of the exception you would see far less of this type of activity.
"Good on ya mate!"
January 9, 2007, 12:47 PM
Got a camera on your cel-phone?
Take the persons picture... Give the picture to the police and explain that both times the person crossed the threshold into your residences after being asked to leave, to me that is two cases of an unwanted entry... I'm sure there are others in your area that would also have the same experience.
Glad you're both okay, one of these magazine kids tried to get into our apartment once and put their foot in the door jam across the threshold, they left with a very sore foot.
January 9, 2007, 03:46 PM
I guess none of y'all have ever been employed in the "cold sales" business...
This magazine selling fellow went way over the line, but I would be willing to bet that his style has sold lots of subscriptions:
"Fine, give me a subscription to Small Arms Review so you will get the hell out of my house!"
I don't think the poster did anything wrong and he does not seem to be bending the truth as some folks here have claimed. He just had to resort to iron to clear out an overzealous salesman with an intimidating technique.
January 9, 2007, 04:47 PM
good work my man he was prolly just using intimidation to sell magazines but you never know
January 10, 2007, 08:07 PM
It sounds like what you did was ok but, if you want to know if it was on the right side of the law - well then ask a cop or a lawyer but don't ask here because opinions ain't facts and this is opinion land.
My opinion is you done fine.
January 10, 2007, 09:26 PM
Cops' and lawyers' opinions are opinions, too.
They may be more educated than our opinions, but I still consider the source, no matter where I get my information.
January 10, 2007, 10:09 PM
Actually I don't Prophet, where I live carry is not legal and all things gun related are generally frowned upon
Sucks to be you. Been there, done that. Moved to a Free State. You can, too.
Or, you can judge others by the screwed-up perspective of your chosen Nanny State. :rolleyes:
Just don't expect those of us with a clearer perspective to agree. :)
January 11, 2007, 01:17 AM
Well, I think it wasn't real logical. And if this was a man with so little money he had to sell magazines, it's real good you didn't shoot him, legal or not, both for his sake and yours - the way you'd feel If you knew before the incident that there were aggressive magazine salesmen around, it was very off the beam in my view. Hopefully you didn't.
Even without that, why - if you feel so threatened as to take a gun to the door - why would you then open it? The test is my state if you had shot him: if a lethal action is taken - was it the only choice left to the person to prevent iminent death/severe injury. You had other choices, the most obvious being don't open the door and call the cops. Others, leave from another door if there was one and call 911. If you always take a gun to the door in a neighborhood of 99% college students, why?
Lastly, if you thought your girlfriend was under severe risk, why did you not call the police? and instead run over with your gun. That's their job. If you had called and then went over, that's different, if you felt something could happen before they came and you would go in case. But not to call them?
My own reaction is that I would be very nervous being around you, especially if I was black ("She [your girlfriend] was more concerned with the fact that there was a big black man at her door, and didnt even hear the "magazine subscriptions" part, so as far as she knew this guy was a rapist or robber." I don't know if you could have shot him legally because he was in her apt., maybe you could have, but my hunch is you were prepared to partly because he was black)
January 11, 2007, 08:36 AM
Oh wow....lets see here...
First of all I only took the gun to the door because I had never seen the guy. I didnt necessarily have any reason NOT to open the door though. Its a college town and theres always someone knocking at your door. I dont take a gun with me every time I answer.
Secondly, I didnt grab my gun and hurry over to her house when I found out what was going on. I was already on the way over and I was but maybe a minute from her house already. Otherwise yes, calling the police would have been my first move. Besides she had called them already by the time I had gotten there. She hung up on me and called the police.
Dont worry, I'm not just some guy looking to blow someone away for whatever reason. Just trying to be safe here. And his being black didnt make me want to shoot him, thats pretty twisted if you think so. But thanks for being presumptuous.
January 11, 2007, 08:48 AM
I went to school at the University about 90 miles south of Waco (WHOOP!), but both mys sisters went to school in Waco and I have driven through Waco on numerous occasions. Near Baylor, there is a cartain way that people act and dress, and it is usually obvious which people are students and which are not (and race ahas absolutely nothing to do with it). But Baylor is near some really bad areas that are dangerous. The football stadium is not on campus, but is in fact in a bad area and students must drive through that area to go to the games. My sister's Sunday School teacher was out running one Saturday morning just off of campus and found a dead man floating in the river, less than a mile off campus.
When I was in school, some guy knocked on my apartment. College Station is totally different than Waco - most crime was and is theft or related to drunkenness. When I opened the door, some young guy from outside the state was standing there trying to sell magazine subscriptions. He had a story about earning money and almost winning a trip and needing a few more subscriptions. And he did not take no for an answer! I had graduated the night before and was getting married the next day. My roommate had graduated the night before and was getting married the next weekend. Obviously we did not care to buy magazine subscriptions! But this guy would not take no for an answer!
GalilARM's story sounds very plausible. If this guy was trying to make sales, he would go all over to apartments that he knew had college students in them. And because he was big and was from a different race than the students (it would work for a big white man in a black neighborhood or an Hispanic neighborhood), this man knew that he could intimidate students into buying magazine subscriptions. So he pushes his way into residents, making people decide between using force, brandishing a weapon, calling the cops, or buying a subscription. Most people opt for the subscription. This man apparently had used the tactic before; hence the complaints. But GalilARM was the first to try a different method. Unfortunately, anyone could use the same tactic to get into someone's home: "Hi, I am selling magazine subscriptions," and step inside the door. Some crimes are premeditated and some are crimes of opportunity. Who knows: this man may have found some female student finishing a shower and expecting a friend/roommate and open the door without checking. Then what? Again, this has nothing to do with race. Or what if some strung-out guy answered the door, saw this man standing on the steps and saw him as a threat, and shot him?
I think GalilARM handled things pretty well. If the man in question was handcuffed and threatened to be charged with a crime, it might deter him from using these tactics. And in the long run, that might save him or someone else.
January 11, 2007, 11:22 AM
Lastly, if you thought your girlfriend was under severe risk, why did you not call the police? and instead run over with your gun. That's their job. If you had called and then went over, that's different, if you felt something could happen before they came and you would go in case. But not to call them?
You must be kidding right?? If I get a call from my girlfriend( or wife because I'm not allowed to have a GF!!) that a stranger is in her apartment and she is scared to death, and I'm a few seconds away, you think I am going to pull up and call the police and wait while this guy rapes, or murders her??? C'mon, maybe you would but not me. I am not the John Wayne hereo type, but I'm also not one to sit back while somebody is being hurt or killed. I suggest you tell your GF or significant other on your intentions under such circumstances, they may not be around for long.
My own reaction is that I would be very nervous being around you, especially if I was black ("She [your girlfriend] was more concerned with the fact that there was a big black man at her door, and didnt even hear the "magazine subscriptions" part, so as far as she knew this guy was a rapist or robber. I don't know if you could have shot him legally because he was in her apt., maybe you could have, but my hunch is you were prepared to partly because he was black)
Why are you turning this into a racial thing? This guy never came across as such. The plain and simple truth is there are areas where a black man may be out of place and deserve further attention, no different that if I walked the streets of the ghetto in LA, not to many white folks around, nothing prejudice about it, just a fact of life, and how do you know what was going through his girlfriends mind? I am sure it didn't matter if the guy was purple with yello poka dots, if a man comes into a womans apartment uninvited, he is a threat to her, plain and simple!! If this salesman made the wrong move he could have been very easily killed and the poster would have been justified in doing so. Maybe you live in a fairy tale world but in the real world I would have no problem hanging around this member, as a matter of fact if you the member are ever in Mt Airy, NC come by and see me and I will show you the town!:D
January 11, 2007, 11:51 AM
In response to "Galiarms" post above and info on "RevJim"'s: sorry Galiarm, didn't know the neigborhood was as bad as I guess it was: that BGs had a history of pretending mag. sales to get in apts - seems more logical what you were doing. tough spot.. Maybe safer from now on not to open the door to any stranger if you're at all unsure of why they're there.
May also have been safer to call the cops on the way over, that way if you have to jump in you'll have help real soon, while also preventing possible legal problems if you have to take lethal action by yourself.
how did the cops investigation into this guy go? any final word anytime on what they learned?
(To the poster above: I didn't mention his girlfriend's thoughts, I quoted Galiarms mention of his girlfriend's thoughts. I also didn't make a reference to anyone sitting in a car. Best re-read the posts on the thread.)
January 11, 2007, 11:59 AM
gvf makes some very good points.
Did you think that your life was threatened? Did you think that your GFs life was threatened?
Could the situation have been avoided?
Could OC spray been a suppliment to your handgun to de-escalate the situation?
Were you prepared to kill?
January 11, 2007, 01:33 PM
And this is all over a magazine salesman..... :D
And NCHORNET, gvf didn't bring up race, the original poster did, gvf just commented on the posters statement. If you don't want race mentioned, galil should not have mentioned it, period!
January 11, 2007, 01:48 PM
Its better to get it out of the way because sooner or later someone is going to ask. I just had some problems with a bunch of thugs didn't mention race and I got asked like 3 times what race were they. Because different races act differnt ways
White: Could be a rapist/serial killer
Black: could be a rapist/gang banger
Latin: Could be a rapist /gang banger
its not trying to be racist thats just the way it is different races act different ways.
You can't tell me that if the town you live in is almost all white and a big black/latin guy dressed thuggy knocked on your door you wouldn't be wondering what the hell. But if a big white guy dressed not in a thuggy way knocked you'd answer the door without thinking twice about it and I know you would and so does everyone else so just drop the race card ok.:barf:
January 11, 2007, 01:59 PM
...so just drop the race card ok.
Motion seconded and carried.
Let's get this one back on track. Any further references to race here will result in a locked thread. :mad:
January 11, 2007, 02:21 PM
Hookay, some very interesting conversations here.
I live in a townhome complex and we get these "magazine subscription" salespeople occasionally. Some of them can be pretty assertive about making their pitch too.
When someone knocks I usually check the peephole first to see who's there. If the person is not someone known, I'll answer the door with caution. That caution may include having a pistol on me or nearby. I'll typically open the door only about 8"-10" with my foot braced behind the door incase someone shoves the door. If we have a nice conversation and they do not crowd close to the door, everything is fine. I typically don't accept anything from them and watch carefully to see how they try to hand it over. Most people will see me on my guard and reach far out to hand things over.
In the event someone tries to get their "foot in the door" literally, I will tell them once, "Back off, move away now". If they refuse or attempt to shove the door back (thus to gain entry), I will back up about 4 paces and once the person is inside, give them a detailed view of my Springfield's bore. If they remain at the door, my weapon will be held low and they will be ordered away from the door. Next move is their option.
OK, let me put it a little more nicely, if you have a gun in your hand and open a door to a stranger, then shoot him for whatever reason you open yourself up for a premeditated murder charge.
Absolute hogwash. Answering the door to an unknown person is not indicative that you believe they pose no threat. People are legally permitted to walk up to your door and knock or ring the bell (with some exceptions) to conduct business. It is your home and you may choose to answer the door in almost any manner you like. You can answer it in your bathrobe, formal wear or nothing at all. You can have in your hand a cane, battleaxe, TV Guide, the remote, your pistol or a pipe wrench if you want. As long as you do not threaten the person at the door with any of these items, you have comitted no offense.
Now, IF the person on your porch crowds the doorway, sticks his foot in the door and refuses your order to move away -- and/or pushes the door open, you can demand they leave at once and step back away from the door. At this point, your prudence of arming yourself is validated by the actions of the stranger disobeying your orders or attempting to gain entry into the house. Your orders for them to get away are a clear indication TO THEM that their presence is unwanted. It follows then, that persons on legitimate business would not proceed further and risk losing their sale to rude manners or having the cops drag them off. Further intrusion into your home, at this point, should be construed as a dangerous threat.
You have premeditated nothing, except the possibility that something dangerous might happen. It did and you were prepared to resist and use sufficient force to resist.
January 11, 2007, 02:38 PM
If anyone cares to know, I called my friend at the station and he said that they talked to him for a bit, but they werent able to know for sure if he was the same guy who had been complained about before. I'm pretty sure we all knew it was, but nevertheless, it sounds like he was given a stern talking to and then let go. I dont know if they actually took him to the station or not, I didnt ask. I did see him in cuffs, but I left before I saw if they loaded him in the car or not. I think he said they contacted whatever organization he works for and told them that their salespeople need to change their tactics or risk criminal charges. So I guess the guy got off, but hopefully he wont try his tactic again..
January 11, 2007, 02:51 PM
Well BillCA, not everyone does it the way you do either, but its a safe bet that an overwhelming majority don't take a gun to the door and open it. If anyone wants to thats fine, do what you wish, but don't make it seem strange to answer a door sans gun in hand. This is a gun forum so of course the majority of people in here might, but that's still a tiny percentage of what the rest of the country are doing. My point in the post you cut and posted on was meant to convey that IF you had shot someone that came to your house and you answered weapon in hand, you COULD face premeditation charges. States vary as do local police, but carrying the gun indicates intent in some cases. Anyway, its all opinion and rhetoric, I prefer not to have to deal with a shooting and all the mess that comes with it. Shooting targets is more fun.
January 11, 2007, 03:07 PM
Hell I'd love it if the only thing I ever had to shoot at was targets, but I'd rather be safe than sorry....Like you said, the guys on this board are probably in the minority when it comes to "situational preparedness", but I wont ever tell someone its a bad idea to take a gun to the door if they are a little bit wary. Again, better safe than sorry.
January 11, 2007, 03:37 PM
We can all agree on that galilARM.
January 11, 2007, 04:06 PM
I still don't understand your point going to the door with a gun on you is not premeditating anything if that were true then when you carried your gun concealed you were premeditating to kill someone that day. That would never stand up in court
The defendant took the gun to the door because he didn't know who this poor magazine salesman was, but he was ready to taste blood and kill Mr. Doe. There for I think it was premeditated murder. maybe stand up in court where your from but not in texas.
January 11, 2007, 04:38 PM
I dont take a gun with me every time I answer.
States vary as do local police, but carrying the gun indicates intent in some cases.
I still don't understand your point going to the door with a gun on you is not premeditating anything if that were true then when you carried your gun concealed you were premeditating to kill someone that day.
I was taught in my CHL class that if you do not carry all the time, then it could possibly be construed as intent when you actually do carry. They suggested that the mindset should not be "I don't always carry" but instead "I always carry when legal, unless there's some other reason I don't." It's a minor thing, but I guess that it can prevent a prosecutor from asking "Well out of all the times you don't take a gun to the door, why did you this time?"
January 11, 2007, 05:11 PM
If someone comes in your home and means you harm and you shoot them, youre not in the wrong. Theres nothing "premeditated" about it. Thats the beauty of self defense.
January 11, 2007, 05:32 PM
I think he did the right thing. I keep my pistol on my hip all the time. Whenever someone's at my door I don't know, I pull my shirt over the grip so it's right there if I need it. If it turns out I don't need it, I pull my shirt back over it before anyone gets to see it. You can never be too careful, especially considering what this guy and his girlfriend went through.
I would check the laws in your state though. Some states only allow deadly force if your/another's life is threatened. Others allow you to defend personal property [castle doctrine].
January 11, 2007, 05:48 PM
I answer the door with my gun in hand and out of sight. I place my left foot in a position to stop a push should the stranger try to get in. If they get aggressive I tell them to go away and slam the door. If they attempt forcible entry my plan is to gain distance and point the gun while screaming get out. If they keep coming it is going to get ugly.
I use to have a chain lock that would allow me to talk while the door was open slightly kinda semi secure at least combined with my foot. I think I'm gonna get another one for my new house. If it buys me time to put distance between us it is worth it.
January 11, 2007, 07:02 PM
Remind me never to go "Trick or Treat" in any of your neighborhoods! :D Not a fan of lead candy..... My point about premeditated was if you don't have a CCL or your state prohibits carry and you bring a gun to the door and then have to shoot, depending on the circumstances there could be a charge of premeditation. Not all of us that read these forums have carry permits, luck of the state we live in.
January 11, 2007, 10:13 PM
I cant think of a reason walking around in your own house (and that includes opening doors) is setting yourself up for anything. You could have been walking past the door with the weapon heading to/from your gunsafe or who knows what. Doorbell rang & you answered it. Thug decided to push his way in against your explicit orders not to enter, then it becomes not a good day for Mr Thug.
January 12, 2007, 07:58 AM
You could have been walking past the door with the weapon heading to/from your gunsafe or who knows what.
Yeah just happened to have this loaded gun in my hand your honor. I don't think so, in the sober light of day in a courtroom with a jury that you are trying to sell this bill of goods to, good luck. We always think our logic will convince everyone because we, after all, believe it. Just remember, no one in prison is guilty of anything either, just ask them.....
January 12, 2007, 09:24 AM
Hopefully,if nothing else, the lesson was learned to not allow entry into your home by a stranger. No one gains entry to my home, unless I know them or are expecting a repairman, etc. I'm glad you and your girlfriend are okay.
AR15fan, are you just trying to stir the pot?
Are you opposed to folks defending themselves with firearms?
What state do you live in that prohibits you from possessing a firearm in your domicile?
Do you actually know what "premeditated murder" means?
January 12, 2007, 09:28 AM
No skipjack, I am just voicing my opinion as is everyone else. Just because I am for responsible gun ownership and use and don't mindlessly +1 every gun issue doesn't mean I am "stirring" any pot.
transitive verb : to think about and revolve in the mind beforehand
intransitive verb : to think, consider, or deliberate beforehand
January 12, 2007, 09:56 AM
[original deleted in error-gvf]
Sorry Galiarm, your reaction to the whole thing after the fact - together with what the police did NOT do, (charge him with anything) - brings me back to my original reaction. You're happy a man who you pulled a gun on and were prepared to shoot suffered that fear, and was put in handcuffs and had to deal with the cops and, thereby, was taught a lesson. However, the police after their investigation, charged him with nothing, found nothing criminal in his actions, not even trespass, and verified he was what he said he was: a salesman. "So, they had to let him go" is your ultimate response. Yes, maybe everything you did was justified by whatever the impression you had was, I don't know, but I feel the satisfaction you express, the lack of relief that you escaped killing someone which - as it turns out - would have been unnecessary.... disturbing and aggressive.
I am sure of one obligation that goes with carrying a lethal weapon: it is to reflect and be aware before it is put on, and after we have the misfortune to be involved in an "episode" if that happens. So that the enormity of what we can do in an instant is fully appreciated, that we know our knee-jerk motivations, our biases, our fears, and be able to distinguish those from the reality of what we are seeing. Then we can act wisely in the heat of the moment. All this seems missing in you. So, in answer to your original request for comments and suggestions on what else you could have done: mine is that you seem irresponsible, and you could get rid of the self-righteous gloating and give this event the quiet and grave reflection it deserves.
bye and luck
January 12, 2007, 10:12 AM
Irresponsible? Self Righteous Gloating? Disturbingly Aggressive? Where in the world did you get those ideas? I'm relieved that it ended the way it did, without any violence. I was scared as hell when I had to point a gun at this stranger who was where he didnt belong. I was nervous and scared, but I didnt let any "emotions or knee jerk responses" get the best of me. I just meant that I wish he would have gotten in a little trouble for what he did, rather than just a lecture. How is that disturbingly aggressive or irresponsible? Are you saying that I wish I could have killed the guy? Because that couldn't be further from the truth. ReRead the original post and maybe you'll understand. I think I used my head, kept my cool, and handled it as best and as responsibly as I could have.
January 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
You might as well quit tring to talk to gvf and AR15 because they are just trying to cause trouble and/or get you thread closed most of us know you did the right thing you know you did the right thing we should just leave it at that and quit giving them what they want.(us to get upset and start a flame war).
January 12, 2007, 11:56 AM
I am not trying to get the thread closed, dialogue is good. And since when is having a differing opinion a flame war? I am just having conversation in a forum, you take the course of action you like its your life and responsibility. No skin off my nose.....
January 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
Well, AR your just trying to stir up trouble the other guy is trying to start a flame war with his Obscene comments, exactly what post were you reading where you got that ARM wanted to kill this guy and was sad the he let the moment pass him? thats what I want to know are we reading the same thing here.
January 12, 2007, 12:07 PM
Rare is the professional author whose descriptions of people and events give the reader the sense of being there, of visualizing the surroundings and feeling the tension. It would be almost beyond belief that an author on this board could relay all he felt, saw and what led him to certain decisions in the space of the paragraph or two he is willing to write and we are willing to read.
A little lattitude in interpreting the written word here may be prudent. There may have been a lot more clues leading to a decision that a threat was imminent... or not. Awful hard to judge from this viewpoint.
As amateur writers and readers of same, it might be better to suggest that the actor in the play we didn't witness should be considering certain other possible answers to conclusions he made. Certainly reinforcing the awesome responsibility surrounding the use, contemplated use or even inferred use of lethal force is appropriate everywhere on this forum.
January 12, 2007, 01:08 PM
Re Prophet: We were asked to comment by a poster about a potentially lethal situation between three people. And by extension, the aftermath of others that could occur involving still other people since the one carries a lethal weapon and will continue to. I did.
Your being upset because it dosen't agree with what you consider a communal mindset is secondary to me, nor that anyone is upset. I gave an honest response for all the people involved, and that could be in a future incident.
January 12, 2007, 01:20 PM
Prophet, it seems to me you are stirring up more trouble then anyone else. Its a forum which means exchanging ideas, not just +1'ing every pro gun comment. The free and open exchange of ideas, freedom of speech, its one reason we have guns.
January 12, 2007, 01:32 PM
Hopefully,if nothing else, the lesson was learned to not allow entry into your home by a stranger. No one gains entry to my home, unless I know them or are expecting a repairman, etc.
Bingo. If it's an unsolicited visit I don't even bother to answer the door. Same goes with answering the phone. When I'm home it's my space and my time and if you are uninvited then I have to option to acknowledge or not to acknowledge.
However, if someone rings the doorbell at what I would consider an unusual hour of the day, I would check it out and would not be empty handed.
January 12, 2007, 02:44 PM
"Yeah just happened to have this loaded gun in my hand your honor. I don't think so, in the sober light of day in a courtroom with a jury that you are trying to sell this bill of goods to, good luck"
Ar15fan, I am curious to know if your definition of "responsible" gun ownership includes defending yourself in your home. Should one be forced to have all firearms unloaded and secure at all times?
How could one commit premeditated murder on a person he/she does not know and has no idea when said victim would appear?
January 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
Before a moderator locks this thread, please allow me to say this ...
There is nothing wrong with a friendly debate as long as it's done intelligently and respectfully. ;)
If someone can't handle the topic of discussion or the fact that thier opinions are being challenged, then maybe they should reconsider responding.
As far as the topic at hand (GalilARM) ...
Yes, this salesman may have been a nusiance, but in all honesty, all I'm really hearing is that you were intimidated by this person's size, color, and what he MAY have been capable of doing.
Next time call the police. :rolleyes:
January 12, 2007, 03:01 PM
OK, as so often happens when opinions reach an impasse, emotions are running high and folks are getting angry.
I think this one needs a "cooling down" period, so I'm closing it for 24 hours.
During that time, count to ten in multiple languages.
After that time, think twice, post once. ;)
January 13, 2007, 07:59 PM
Thread re-opened. I hope everybody's nice & chilled now.
PLEASE!..... Keep it civil!
January 13, 2007, 08:33 PM
As stated earlier, it's good no person was hurt during this incident.
If someone is at your door and you do not believe they should be there...do not open it. Have your dialogue with them behind the locked door. It is fine to be armed, but opening the door to a potential threat puts you behind the curve.
Also, people can see if you are looking through your peephole, as your form will block light exiting the hole.
Again, your home is your castle, keep it safe. Unlocking the door to someone you find suspect, isn't great for any situation.
January 13, 2007, 08:45 PM
Glad no one was hurt. From your description, I doubt this was an ordinary salesman. He was up to no good, if you ask me.
Sounds like you really kept your cool in both circumstances. Good job! As for answering the door armed - good for you! Where I live, there's no requirement to retreat. I can understand why others in less gun-friendly areas might take issue with what you did... unnecessarily, of course. :cool:
January 14, 2007, 12:49 PM
GalilArms showed as much restraint as he could. Texas has property and home defense laws that are legendary in their leniency towards people defending themselves, their property, or others with deadly force. Mr. Magazine salesman should be thankful all he got were some handcuffs.
I live in College Station which is "near" Waco and I've had the same experience with people hasseling me at all hours for random and petty crap. I'm fairly certain that the overwhelming majority of the people that come to my door for cigs, a quarter, selling magazine subscriptions, etc... are casing my apt.
January 14, 2007, 10:22 PM
I will typically take a handgun with me to answer the door when an unexpected visitor knocks or the person outside is someone I don't know. To some, this may smack of paranoia. But I live alone, have been burglarized before (and lost a dozen guns), have computers & stereo gear among other nice stuff and it's not too unusual to see the PD heilo orbiting a high-risk car stop within 3 blocks. Should someone force their way in and seize control, I might be at a serious disadvantage to stop them.
When answering the door with the gun out of display or view, the only way anyone will know it is there is by their applicaton of force where it it neither wanted or desired. There is no intent here at all, except to prevent the visitor from illegally entering the residence and posing a threat to me. A person at the door who forces their way inside is clearly a threat to me and others present because, in my view, because he is betting his freedom on his ability to control the persons in the house and prevent them from calling the PD and he's already shown inclination to violence by forcing his way inside.
What I don't understand is the theory that a person, in their own home, who picks up a firearm in response to an unexpected knock at their door, could be charged with a premeditated murder, if the person at the door forces their way into the home. Murder, by our state's definition requires "malice aforethought" and an unlawful killing. It also states that homicide is justified "against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another...", such as forcing the door open against the owner's resistance.
January 15, 2007, 12:54 AM
January 15, 2007, 02:09 AM
Just to review the facts:
A man pulls his gun on another on two occasions -(the second with a third person present) - because he feels this man is is an immient threat to their lives. A lethal weapon involved, it is possible any or all of the three people could be killed.
The police investigate and find that: the man was not lethally threatening anyone and he is not charged with this serious crime; he is not charged with a less serious crime; he is not charged with a violation of a local ordinance. His record reveals no past history of placing anyone under lethal threat or he would have been held for further investigation. His statement during the incident that he was a door-to door salesman reveals he is a door-to-door salesman. He is not held for further investigation but is released quickly, perhaps at the scene.
The person who pulled the gun has a sole reflection on the incident and the discrepancy of what he felt the situation was, and what it actually was - (including the inherent possibility he could have killed an innocent person or any of those present); the reflection is a desire that more would have happened to the man he pulled the gun on.
Take care and adios,
January 15, 2007, 05:03 AM
GVF, we addressed your point of view once before.....Firstly, a gun was pulled ONCE, and that was when he would not leave her house. I explained this in the original post and then explicitly in subsequent posts.
Once again, the police told me that I was in the right, and that it was not the first time the man had been trouble. Why they didnt take further action is beyond me. Not my problem though, I guess.
This guy attempted to push his way into my apartment, claiming he was selling magazines. Maybe he was actually selling magazines, but the fact remains, his behavior was WAY out of line and I acted in accordance to a threat that I thought existed. I had no idea whether this guy was ACTUALLY a salesman or whether he was a home invader. His behavior certainly lent itself to the latter. If thats not enough, he forced entry into her house, remained inside AFTER BEING ASKED TO LEAVE REPEATEDLY. If thats not a threatening situation then I dont know what is. I had no idea whether this guy was a real magazine salesman or some armed robber.
I can understand an aggressive seller who wants to make that extra buck, but what I do not understand and will not tolerate is someone who pushes his way into the home of a young woman, thinking he can intimidate her into buying a magazine subscription or something.
I'll say it one more time. The police told me I was perfectly justified, I think I was perfectly justified, she thought it was more than perfectly justified, and if given another opportunity, I would have handled this the exact same way. Thanks for your opinions, but they are just that, your opinions. I rest my case.
January 15, 2007, 07:24 AM
Galilarm, Please stop explaining yourself. Both of those guys would have answered the door with a gun on or in hand if they saw a large out of place stranger at their door. If they didn't then they just made a huge tactical bo-bo. You did what most here would have done. No man has the right to push his way into your home. Once in no man should wonder why a gun is in his face. If you were forced to shoot him you are at no more risk of prosecution than the home owner who hears a noise outside and arms himself to investigate and is forced to shoot. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
What can you do better? Be more forceful in your voice commands. Don't be afraid to hurt someones feelings. Being polite is construed as weakness by some. Get the #$@%$ out of my house NOW. Other than that you did good.
January 15, 2007, 08:43 AM
Deleted by gvf
January 15, 2007, 08:47 AM
If you don't know who it is, don't open the door. Stay on alert at all times for people on the street-it can be easy to drop your guard.
Although I totally understand emotionally, your tactics of opening the door with your .45 in hand were the result of a distracted mind.
I've got a better story for you that happened about 10 years ago. It was the night after Christmas and the wife and I are awoken by someone aggressively pounding the door and juggling the doorknob of our condo. Guess who it was? Some poor man with Alzheimers (senility) who lived in the complex. Now, I didn't open the door, I called the police and that's why everything ended happily- I found out who he was (not a criminal) and why he was doing what he was doing (demented).
Believe me though, I sympathize with you and wish there weren't the ever increasing number of parasites (some dangerous, some merely very stupid) in our society. Stay on Yellow or Orange at all times.
January 15, 2007, 02:12 PM
I said you may have had imprerssions to make you feel justified. Earlier. You missed that. However, your problem is that the man was found legally blameless because he was - and you won't accept it.
He was justified in pulling and pointing his gun. A man, a stranger, forced his way into his home after being told not to. Maybe you don't consider that justification but obviously the police did and most on this board do.
You care not a whit that -justfied by an impression or not - a tragic error possibly resulting in loss of life occurred. You have no relief that it didn't. You have not a thought for the man who could have been killed.
How do you know he didn't care about this guy or wasn't relieved by not having to shoot him?
The reason you are irresponisble is not that you acted under impressions that technically may have made it legal, but because you miss a lot of external reality and care only about being right and your own interior feelings. This is a poor way for a man with a gun to evaluate situations that may come up. That depends on seeing what IS, and caring enough about reality and other people that you bother to notice objectively.
It is bad tactics and frankly not smart to incorporate the bad guys feelings into your decision to draw or use deadly force. In the real world and at real speed one must determine if a threat rises to the level of using force in a flash. When a salesman forces his way into your home he jumps past pushy salesman and directly into bad guy for me. The salesman and no one else knows why he is pushing his way into my home (unless you can read minds....I can't). Therefore I must react to this potential threat based on the facts right then and there. Galilarm used appropriate force as well as restraint once the threat was over and the situation in hand.
Guys like you that love to Monday morning QB every situation fail to realize what a large man at contact range can do to you and how fast they can do it. I suggest some FOF training for a dose of reality.
January 18, 2007, 01:23 PM
We seem to have spent a lot of time analyzing Galilarm's response to the unknown stranger and why it is wrong to pull a gun on an unarmed man. In hindsight, the man was unarmed and "innocent." So pulling a gun in this situation "appears" to be unwarranted.
But let's look a little deeper and analyze the "salesman's" actions as well. He pushed his way into two different homes. Some people can do this with their personality: 15 minutes talking with them and you are buying whatever they offer and telling them your life story! After they leave, you call them and invite them to lunch! But other people do this through intimidation: they are bigger and intimidate people into buying what they are offering. It appears that this salesman's tactics involved getting into people's homes and forcing them to buy magazines before he would leave (not with physical force but with physical intimidation). People are afraid to try anything physical and do not want to call the police, so they endure his sales pitch, buy a magazine subscription, and then he leaves.
Now, what happens if someone challenges this man? What happens if a person tells him to leave or they will throw him out? What happens if a person threatens to call the police while he is standing there? In other words, what if someone calls his bluff? Will he back down from his tactics and politely leave (thus subjecting himself to ridicule and shame)? Or will he react with physical force?
This salesman twice forced his way into people's homes univited. This man twice used physical intimidation to try to scare people into buying magazines. Would you trust this man in your home? Would you trust this man alone with your wife and children? Would you trust this man alone in your living room while you went to get a pen, your checkbook, or your credit card? Remember, he entered your home univited: you have not had a chance to close the doors to hide your bigscreen plasma tv, your surround sound entertainment system, and your stereo; you have not had time to put away your business's cash that your were counting for payroll; you did not have time to warn your wife not to come out of the bedroom in her robe/towel/etc. So is this man a threat? Possibly! Surely we could all admit that this man posed a potential danger! And when Galilarm asked him to leave, the man refused! How would you get the man to leave? What reasonable, rational person barges into a home univited and refuses to leave when ordered to? What options are left? Sure, you could flip a coin: "Heads you leave now, tales I buy a magazine subscription." You could ignore the stranger in your home and go back to your business ("Hey, I am getting ready for work. Don't mind me and make yourself at home. There's Coke in the fridge and my girlfriend made brownies that are on the counter." "I am leaving for work now; make sure to lock up on your way out!"). Galilarm did not ask the salesman to come in and the salesman refused to leave when he asked him to. Can you really say the man does not present a threat? Yes, he did not have a gun. But he was acting irrationally and we do not know what his true intentions were.
I do not think Galilarm is disappointed that the salesman was released and not arrested. I think he is disappointed that the salesman barged into his home and refused to leave, and then barged into his girlfriend's home and refused to leave. Yes, it could have been tragic that Galilarm shot an unarmed man who was simply trying to sell magazines. But it could have been equally tragic that the salesman cased out Galilarm's home and then returned in the middle of the night to kill him and steal his stuff. It could have been equally tragic if the salesman raped Galilarm's girlfriend and then killed her.
This situation out to make us think. We must be careful not to pull a gun at every visitor or salesperson. But we also must be careful that we do not assume every visitor and salesperson is harmless and no danger to us or our family.
Just my two cents.
January 18, 2007, 01:52 PM
January 18, 2007, 02:19 PM
What in the world is ludicrous about his post? If anything, I feel like he summed up the points of view of the majority of posters in this thread, as well as my own.
I'm just curious, but what would you have done in the situation?
So far, AR15FAN, you just seem to be trying to stir the pot and cause trouble rather than contribute to an intelligent discussion.
January 18, 2007, 03:05 PM
I'm just curious, but what would you have done in the situation?
He would have pointed his gun at the salesman when the guy forced his way into his home. If he didn't then he needs FOF training. If he didn't then he needs to question whether having a gun is a smart thing for him. He would certainly need to question his tactics. Allowing a large stranger into contact distance isn't tactically sound. Allowing said stranger to remain in contact distance after having forced his way into your home is just insane.
I feel that he is just using all the information (which wasn't available at the time things were happening) to critique your actions or he is trying to start an argument. Either way don't listen to him you did what we all would have done in that situation.
January 18, 2007, 03:24 PM
If you didn't respond to me there would be no allegation of pot stirring. The whole situation boils down to you shouldn't have opened the door and let him in, period. Do whatever you want with your guns, its cool.....
January 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
Lord this guy is nerve racking.:barf:
January 18, 2007, 05:32 PM
You guys can't even agree to disagree. :mad:
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