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View Full Version : How many bullets do you really need?


njtrigger
January 6, 2007, 04:44 PM
I want to hear from those who have been involved in actual shootings or maybe know someone who has. . .

How many bullets did it take for you to get the situation under control?

My belief is that the usual situation just calls for a few bullets. Few people will ever stick around when they hear the shot of a pistol. Most people who are hit with a bullet or two will not keep fighting out of fear that your going to finish them off.

Then most criminals know that the police will show up quickly when shots are fired, so they leave the scene quickly.

Do you really need a hi-capacity clip of 12 or more bullets?

Bigfatts
January 6, 2007, 04:56 PM
Most people who are hit with a bullet or two will not keep fighting out of fear that your going to finish them off.

Very likely to prove untrue. There is also a good probability these days of being in a confrontation with a local crack monger who will most likely not even notice a few gaping wounds. And few people carry a firearm expecting the usual situation. There is no usual scenario for a defensive situation. And keep in mind that in the stress of a deadly force situation most people may score 1 or 2 hits on target out of every five, So a high capacity magazine might come in handy.

G-Cym
January 6, 2007, 05:12 PM
I am comfortable with not having any spare mags and just going with the 9 .45 ACP in my Ruger. Most of the time I do have spare mags in reaching distance, but if not, I don't feel undergunned. Those 9 rounds are really just to cover my ### as I book it out of there.

Blackwater OPS
January 6, 2007, 05:42 PM
I am not comfortable with less than a reload or two, but obviously that mean a huge difference in rounds between a j-frame and a full size auto. Expect the unexpected, I have never heard of someone geting into a shooting and complaining that they had carried too much ammo.

Josh Smith
January 6, 2007, 05:44 PM
I was in fear for my life and fired three times. That resolved the problem.

Then another time a 'possum tried to climb my leg. Recognizing that this was not usual 'possum behavior, I shot it. It took six shots from maybe three feet to anchor it. The load was Black Hills 124gr GD +P.

Never have I needed the 16 rounds my pistol holds, but I would have emptied a revolver on that second one and been down to half a load on the first.

I believe that seven rounds is probably minimal with the higher capacity mags being optimal, assuming you do not forsake accuracy for capacity.

Just my take.

Josh <><

shortydog
January 6, 2007, 05:47 PM
Do you really need a hi-capacity clip of 12 or more bullets?

thats funny.:eek:

mete
January 6, 2007, 06:09 PM
Naive !!! If , for example the average is 3 rounds ,to think that your situation will be the average is very foolish !! NYPD in the latest statistics hit their target in actual shootouts 10% of the time .If you need three rounds[hits ] to end it that means you need 30 rounds !! What makes you think there will be only one BG ?? Then there are the BGs on drugs who are immune to 'stopping power' may not even know they are hit and don't care !! ...You need to get into the real world !:rolleyes:

orionengnr
January 6, 2007, 06:18 PM
If you will do a search, you would know that there is no "right" answer to this question.

In an armed confrontation, a brandished weapon may be enough to send the BG running for the hills. Happens often enough.

The "average" often quoted is 3x3x3...three shots at three feet in three seconds. May do the trick.

You will also find instances of so-and-so absorbing (x) number of hits of (y) caliber to no apparent effect. That happens too, and for those "better safe than sorry" types, it is the worst case scenario, and keeps Glock :) in business.

If there were One Right Answer, then gun sales, holster sales, ammo sales and all related sales activity would come to a halt....all except for that one "perfect caliber/platform".

PS--the internet would also wither and die because we'd have nothing to discuss. And the economy would crumble, and we'd all go back to living in caves.

Can't have that, now, can we?

Bottom line--many variables, many possible outcomes, many options.

And at the risk of overstating the obvious....:rolleyes:
opinions are like a**holes. Everyone's got one, and...ah, you know the rest.

njtrigger
January 6, 2007, 06:20 PM
For the police officer, I understand them carrying around hi-cap weapons. They have to be prepared for every possible situation no matter how improbable. A side note, the police did very well with six shot revolvers for many decades.

However, I find it hard to believe that a civilian guarding his home might need this much capacity. If I was a burglar and someone was shooting, I wouldnt stay for the fight, but run in the opposite direction fast.

Topthis
January 6, 2007, 06:29 PM
I think though, the OP was asking for those that have been in an actual Shoot-out and how many rounds was needed. I know of 2 incidents from very close friends. The first incident only had 3 shots fired...it ended the situation and ended a Life as well...very bad. Supposedly there were multiple parties involved and a few other weapons, but after the first shot and a man down, turned chaotic and folks running everywhere. In the second incident, there was at least 13 rounds fired from one handgun...a driver in a truck was trying to repeatedly run my friend down...in this incident, no one was shot, but the front of the truck looked like swiss cheese.
Personally I only load up one magazine for each of my guns, but there are at least 2000 rounds nearby!!!!

cuate
January 6, 2007, 06:31 PM
As many as it takes. One of sufficient caliber properly placed would be nice but seldom happens. A prosecuter asked my buddy in court why he shot the BG six times with his S&W pistol. He told them, "Because it was all it would hold". He was a LEO and all turned out okay.

Love&Hate12
January 6, 2007, 06:54 PM
Some shooters enjoy hi caps for target shooting, you know? It can come in handy, what if 4 guys break in, the odds are never certain NjTrigger. I do know where you are getting at but do you understand the other end also?

jfrey123
January 6, 2007, 07:03 PM
I might need my 17 shots to stop a charging mountain lion. I might need only one shot. One attacking crack head might get scared or go down after one shot, but maybe is three buddies aren't so easily deterred.

My answer is I might not need them, but I want them.

NCHornet
January 6, 2007, 07:11 PM
My best friend was a La County deputy and had to kill a BG high on PCP. This was back when they were carrying revolvers, He emptied 6 rounds of 357 magnum into the BG and he was still charging. While he was reloading his partner dumped 3 rounds of 00 buckshot to finally end the threat and the guys life. It can take one round to end the threat or it can take 15 or somewhere in between. When it comes to this question my answer is "Better to have them and not need them, then to need them and not have them"
The statement above about how LEO's need the higher capacity because they have to be prepared for anything that m ight happen. I don't know what planet you are living on but there is no difference between you and I and that LEO, the only difference is the LEO is likely to find the trouble more than we are. When I carry my J framed model 60, I do feel under gunned. I feel very comfortable with my Glock 23 and 16 rounds of .40 cal and I live in Mayberry RFD!! I find it worthless to criticize those that carry more rounds, we all carry what we feel comfortable with and like what has already been said there are way to many variables that go into our decision on what to carry and how much.

poortrader
January 6, 2007, 07:13 PM
I would prefer to have more than less.

Ant1
January 6, 2007, 07:46 PM
It is really personal preference. I personally don't carry any spares, but I carry a glock 22 (15 rounds of .40) I feel that if I need more than that off duty, then I should probably run away.;)

Mueller
January 6, 2007, 07:50 PM
First one fired at 10 feet 3 rounds high chest, second time 5 rounds high chest at 8 feet, back peddling hard to keep distance open and sharp knife away and still keep hitting.

Do I need a high capacity magazine of 12 or more rounds? in the aforementioned a belt fed machine gun, would have not seemed to have enough rounds, when things go from calm to mildly alarming to downright terrifying in less than a blink of an eye.

I carried a BHP 13 + 1 and 2 spares early on and when the funds allowed switched over to a custom built 1911 in 45 acp 8+1 and carry 2 8 round spares.

I shoot both equally well and feel supremely confident with either one on my belt, I just like the 1911 slightly more and since I had it built to my tastes, fitted if you will, it edges the BHP and given the age of the particular Browning (Canadian made Inglis MK1*) I choose to use the newer pistol and save the Browning for fun or when the 1911 is in the shop.

I would rather carry a few extra rounds and never need then, than to need them and not have them.

A rule of thumb, if six is all you think you need, carry twelve, then you won't go home with an empty weapon.

Bud Helms
January 6, 2007, 08:04 PM
How many bullets do you really need?

One per cartridge.

Mueller
January 6, 2007, 08:06 PM
:D :D :D :D :D

Why didn't I think of that.....

Good one:)

WSM MAGNUM
January 6, 2007, 08:25 PM
How many bullets do you really need?



As many as it takes to end the threat (danger) to your life or family.

mete
January 6, 2007, 08:26 PM
" guarding his home " There again you're not dealing with reality. Watch the news !!! There are an ever increasing number of "home invasions" where 3 or 4 armed BGs force their way into a home .That WILL take lots of rounds !!:eek:

Hard Ball
January 6, 2007, 09:02 PM
Extea loaded magazines are simply cheap life insurance Do you need them? You bet your life you do!

Speer
January 6, 2007, 09:42 PM
My go to gun is a 12G sxs. Two slugs, back to back. Enter the Grim Reaper. That said, I've got a 1300 with four 00 and four slugs resting next to it. You know, just in case...

ATW525
January 6, 2007, 09:49 PM
I'd much rather have ammo left over after a confrontation than run out of ammo in the middle of the fight. Really that should be a no brainer. If you feel that a bullet or two are all you'll ever need to end a fight than more power to you. Feel free to carry around a double-barreled derringer. I'm personally of the belief that handguns suck at stopping people, so I'll continue to carry multiple handguns and a healthy amount of ammo.

This has been posted before, but here (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205)'s an article on Lance Thomas. A civillian who's been in four gun fights.

hpg
January 6, 2007, 10:03 PM
As many as it takes to do the job..........hpg

Pointer
January 6, 2007, 10:23 PM
How many bullets do you really need?

Three... Mo-zam-bique!

The average gunfight lasts about as long as it takes to fire about 2.5 rounds... :eek:

If your opponent fires 2.5 rounds... then you are a crappy shot... :D

For concealed handgun carry... one extra loading (speed loader or magazine) should prove sufficient...

Blackwater OPS
January 6, 2007, 11:06 PM
For the people saying they only carry as much as they will need, can you give me the number to your psychic hot line? I need some lotto numbers.

mete
January 7, 2007, 06:19 AM
Blackwater, I got a CCW once and was given a sheet of instuctions about carrying .One of the comments was 'carry your gun only when you are going to need it ' !!!! :D

Frenchwrench
January 7, 2007, 09:38 AM
How many times have I seen a magazine ejected out of the gun after the draw in IPSC? Enough to want a reload.Fumble fingers would be the norm in the CYP of a gunfight...

tony pasley
January 7, 2007, 11:54 AM
How many? Enough to have a spare mag. when it is over.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 7, 2007, 12:12 PM
To answer this question you need knowledge of gunfights and statistics.

Most folks center on the average but forget about the distributional characteristics of the shots fired per incident.

Do you plan for the average or a reasonable number to cover 95, 99 or 99.9% of the incidents? Depending on distributional shape, you can count on about 50% or some large proportion of fights needing more than 2 or 3.

Thus, saying since the average takes 2-3 and that you don't need more really shows that a real look at the distribution hasn't been done.

Then, even looking at these numbers doesn't take into account probabilities of magazine failure or the like.

For a semi - you probably cover most bases with a hicap in the gun and a spare mag. You miss the extreme upper end of gun fights with only one spare mag.

Also, probabilites should be defined in number of mags needs, not 'clips'. :D

Most folks tend to go with the archetypal single mugger incident.

Oh, hello - I am a mugger - give me your wallet.

No, I am a steely eyed dealer of death from the Internet. I will draw my gun and shoot with a bullet of high stopping power.

Bang, you are stopped! I win.

Now going with another branch - since most DGUs are defensive with no shots fired - a simplistic probability view (like using the average) - leads me to predict that you need to carry no bullet, clips or mags. :D

revjen45
January 7, 2007, 02:02 PM
I carry a Steyr S9 with 2 extra mags, i.e 31 rds. There are times when I carry a .38 revolver with one or 2 speedloaders, on the assumption that anything is better than nothing. What is the downside to having lots of rounds in the gun plus lots more ready to go? Nothing. What is the downside to having less ammo than you need if the uminaginable happens? The long dirt nap. As mentioned earlier, home invasions usually involve more than one assailant, and the the Steyr or Mak in my bathrobe pocket (with extra mags) is to fight my way to the Mossy 8-shot full up with #00s. If you could predict the timing and nature of an attack, you would arrange to be elsewhere. That being impossible, be as well armed as you can.

The Canuck
January 7, 2007, 02:09 PM
I find this thread interesting. As has been said a million times before, it comes down to shot placement. A lot of you are going to decry the heat of the moment, the adrenaline dump and the dynamics of movement while shooting. Well, I have found out one thing, very clearly, you fight how you train. You do not train for a specific scenario, oh no.

You train your skill sets, rapid fire on target, rapid presentation & fire to stop (the threat), movement while firing, situational awareness, tactical reloading, Immediate Action drills, gun retention, multiple threats, tactical assessment, (I'm gonna catch all sorts of heck for this last one) Mindset of a Warrior. When you go into a situation when you have trained your skill sets you can deal with a lot more in the way of situations than training for a specific one because then you have the skills to apply on the fly. When we see the Special Forces and SWAT guys doing thier thing what we are really seeing is the application of thier skillsets in a (usually previously unknown) scenario, not a scenario rehearsal.

If it sounds like it is a lot of work, you're right, it is. If we are serious about our self defence the very least we should do is get a working grasp of these concepts so that we can win and live.

I am just back into firearms (less than a thousand rounds), but I am already doing stoppage drills, shot placement and shoot to stop (aggression). When I get into the IDPA/Tactical Pistol I will have access to ranges where I can safely begin to practice the rest of the skills with a firearm.

Pointer
January 7, 2007, 02:44 PM
...since most DGUs are defensive with no shots fired - a simplistic probability view (like using the average) - leads me to predict that you need to carry no bullet, clips or mags. :D

Using the average... of perhaps 0 to 2 or 3 rounds...

And then deciding to carry two full loads of let's say, 10 rounds... gives you about 6 times as many rounds as you are LIKELY to ever need... A third magazine would make it about 10 times what you are ever likely to need...

If you are a LEO, you might-could need more... but then, you have responding backup LEO's...

If you are a lone Highway Trooper... it wouldn't hurt to have a couple of extra magazines... because backup response MIGHT be too far away...

But chances are, you or the perp, will be dead long before you can reload...

As has been mentioned, shot-placement is critical... if you put it where it does the most good... you will not even need the whole magazine, clip, or cylinder... :cool:

That's why we practice and requalify from time to time... Those who practice more, will stand a much better chance than those who don't... :rolleyes:

To me... a "double-tap" means "two plus one"... TWICE...

MO-ZAM-BIQUE!

Mueller
January 7, 2007, 03:01 PM
Well ,if you practice diligently stay situationally aware and carry spares and maybe a back up, then you have likely, possibly and maybe all covered.

Pointer
January 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
You got it!
LOL :D :D :D

sdb777
January 7, 2007, 03:44 PM
Do you really need a hi-capacity clip of 12 or more bullets?


Are you suggesting that we give up high-capacity magazines?
Are you suggesting everyone turn in their handgun(other than the 6-round revolver)?
Sounds like a sort of anti-gun thread!


Scott B

NCHornet
January 7, 2007, 03:53 PM
Using the average... of perhaps 0 to 2 or 3 rounds...

And then deciding to carry two full loads of let's say, 10 rounds... gives you about 6 times as many rounds as you are LIKELY to ever need... A third magazine would make it about 10 times what you are ever likely to need...


If you want to risk your life on "an average" go right ahead!! I am mean really why do you care if member "X" wants to carry 6 mags, 3 BUG's, 6 knives and 4 flashlights, you're not the one hauling it around, right?
I also don't know where these so called averages come from. Take for instance the flood of videos we have seen on this forum and other forums lately. Not one of these shootouts were finished with 2-3 shots, they all involve many more shots than this. As I said there are a lot of variables that go into how much ammo I take, where am I going, what time of day or night, alone or with others, what am I wearing, what gun etc.... It is up to each person to ask themselves these same questions and decide what they are comfortable with. As for what the next guy carries with him or her, I can care les!!

orionengnr
January 7, 2007, 04:07 PM
There is currently a thread on this BB about a home invasion with six participants.

Predators can travel in packs, and I find that myself growing less confident in smaller capacity/smaller caliber.

I have not forsaken either, but am continually re-evaluating my choices...

GreyFox
January 7, 2007, 04:16 PM
I like to be able to not weigh myself down, so this attatchment is what i usually bring with me when i want to grab the mail from the box in the afternoon, with out really digging into the safe.


I don't know what kind of question that really is, But if you feel secure with putting two rounds in your firearm for personal protection that's great. We should all move to your neighbor hood. But reality is you don't know whats going to happen or when. But if you can carry 15 rounds in a clip, and have 15 more on your waist comfortably, why wouldn't you. Would you rather not have it if you needed it. And then the other reality no one wants to hear is, a very, very small percent of of non LEO's... or even leo's will have to fire their weapon in a life or death situation. You look like your from NJ. What about the shoot out in Newark yesterday, off duty officer was killed. Or what about I believe east orange three or so days ago, off duty CO was in afire fight while trying to get a oil change.... He potentially saved a mans life... Sh*& happens, will you be involved?, I hope not and probably you won't. I would rather be prepared ( and no that doesn't mean i carry an ammo can everywhere i go) Unfortunately there is no way to answer your question the way you want it to be answered, the way you question was stated didn't seem like you wanted any kind of answer but the one you wanted to hear.

Mueller
January 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
If you knew that trouble was coming and how many, you would run the other way as fast as you could, thereby avoiding it all together or you might carry this :

www.andrewsleather.com

Look under Shoulder Rigs for Firepower Rig

Average's are for statisticians and bean counters.

FLA2760
January 7, 2007, 06:07 PM
Many self defense situations including the dreaded home invasion have multiple bad guys acting in concert. So how many do you think you need?

njtrigger
January 7, 2007, 08:50 PM
Let me restate my question guys.

I didnt ask how many bullets that you think a person might need or what is the maximum that could be needed...I didnt ask about shot placement either. . .

My question is this. . .in real life situations, what are the actual number of bullets that have been needed. I dont have the actual statistics. Is there a study out there that has been done?

Mueller
January 7, 2007, 09:11 PM
Only "studies" I have seen or heared about are numbers generated from law enforcement, but many of them have been known to include AD/ND and suicides, thereby skewing the numbers.

CCW holders and how many shot's per engagement, a statistical study? I wouldn't want to be the one in charge of trying to gather the data to make such a study.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 8, 2007, 11:04 AM
There are some police studies - like the famous NY - SOP - 9 (IIRC) and the figures from Kleck's work.

None of these have data that are solid enough with good enough statistics to give a definitive data set that could answer your question of whether you need a hi-cap.

I've talked to Kleck, Mauser and other criminologists/researchers on this and they agree that we really don't have tight data set due to various methodological difficulties.

As I said before, you cannot go by the cliche that an average fight takes 2 to 3 rounds.

Samurai
January 8, 2007, 12:18 PM
Mmmmkay.

Here's a "thought" to immediately disregard: "Guns don't kill people; Exanguination kills people."

What the above statement means is that, when you fire a bullet, the guy you shoot is going to remain mobile for some undetermined period of time AFTER you shoot him. (One shot to the arm, he'll be conscious for several hours; one shot to the brain, he'll be awake for only a moment or two.)

NOW! What does this mean in terms of "tactics and training"??? It MEANS that when you carry a gun, what you are actually carrying is a TIMER for the fight! You are carrying a device which has the ability to place a set, limited duration for the remainder of the fight for which it is used. The way this little device works is as follows: The MORE bullets you fire into the attacker, the SHORTER the fight will last.

SO!!! When we ask ourselves, "How many bullets should I carry?", what we are really asking is, "How much longer after I begin firing do I want to get beaten on by my would-be attacker?" If you are content with firing a SINGLE shot, then only carry one bullet. BUT, be aware of the fact that your attacker will probably keep going for five (5) MINUTES or more after he is shot! If you want the fight to end in LESS TIME, then carry more bullets.

Let's start with a premise: As a rule of thumb, we divide by 2 for each round shot. (I have absolutely NO scientific data to back this up, but if you bleed twice as fast from two bullet holes as you do from one, then it makes sense, sort of.) (I realize that 3 holes is not "twice" 2 holes, but it's only an exercise. Shut up and read!) If one shot will set the timer at "5 minutes remaining in the fight," then two bullets will set the timer at "2.5 minutes." Keep on dividing by 2, and you conclude that 6 shots will end the fight in approximately 9.325 seconds. 9 shots will end the fight in approximately 1.165 seconds.

Now, eventually, you will keep dividing until you reach "instant death." I think this is a little absurd, so the mathematical model will probably not match up exactly with reality. But, it's a good exercise.

So, now the final answer: If I am being KILLED, that is, if someone is attacking me with lethal force, I want it to stop BUT NOW!!! How many rounds do I carry? As many as I can HOLD!

shield20
January 8, 2007, 12:41 PM
I do not know what the actual statistics are, I do not know what the majority of real-life CCW cases show, and though I know what has been reported as averages, I do not give them much thought...

Instead, what I find MYSELF doing as much as possible at the range the last year or so is getting 'near' 1 or 2 (or 3) silouettes, drawing my P99c, and emptying a "handful" of rounds at said 1 or 2 (or 3) targets COM as fast as sight pictures will allow at the same time I am moving, squatting or otherwise not staying put. If I have rounds left, I reholster, re-postion, and redraw shooting another "bunch" of rounds at the target(s), somewhere in there I will drop the mag and reload and fire some more as fast as i can.

I PLAN on needing alot more then 2 or 3 rounds, exactly how many I can't say, but I PLAN on shooting ALOT at the 1st draw, and PLAN on hitting enough times (alot) to stop the threat(s). I figure 10 rounds in the mag is a good starting point as it matches my CCW choice AND NYS law, while having a 2nd mag, preferably on my belt but even if just in a pocket, will back that up OK. [BTW, I now choose 9mm 'cause I can get alot of quality hits in the shortest amount of time, and the recoil and capacity matches my CCW choice well]

Prophet
January 8, 2007, 02:43 PM
I'm just wondering topthis, did either of your friends get in trouble because spraying the front of a truck with 13 rounds and knowing that any of those rounds could have missed and hit civilians the cops would have had a field day so if he didn't get introuble i'm calling BS on the second of your incedents.

OBIWAN
January 8, 2007, 03:09 PM
Glen is right

Statistically most altercations are ended simply by producing the weapon

So all you numbers guys should carry rubber guns...they are much less maintenance intensive:D

Most of you seem to be falling into that same tired "old west gunfight" trap

You may be standing toe to toe at some distance with a single assailant

But you may be trying to hit a smart assailant that is only exposing a very small amount of his body.

See he is smarter than you...he has cover

So a fair number of your rounds may not hit him..defelcted or stopped by cover

And a certain number may hit him in an extremity...painful...but not deadly

He may not give you Moz-Junkies a clear and stable 3 shot window at either his head OR his chest

he may be in a bladed stance that puts his heart on the other end of his body from your bullets or makes it likely that they will all pass through his torso obliquely (if at all) without hitting any organs or major blood vessels

and you may simply miss....after all....you are excited

How many rounds will it take now?

And Samurai is spot on....more bulllets= more holes= quicker incapapcitation



I believe it was Clauswitz that said you had to be prepared for what the enemy could do....not what they were going to do

teejhot.40cal
January 8, 2007, 07:23 PM
My dad was a state trooper and was first on scene to the shooting of a retired troopers wife. This was a random attack but they didn't know it at the time. Two other troopers pulled over the vehicle that matched the description of the shooter's jeep. The two troopers heard a gun shot and the one trooper fell. The other trooper unloaded his revolver on the Jeep. It turns out that the guy shot himself and the bullet hit the back of the car just right to ricochet in the troopers shin. Fortunatly, the trooper only had a black and blue mark on his leg when he dropped his pants on the four lane. About the six shots, he didn't even hit the vehicle and no one has any idea where they went.

Ever since dad told me this story, I found that the perfect number of rounds was one more than need. So how many rounds can I fit into that gun?

Do you plan for the average or a reasonable number to cover 95, 99 or 99.9% of the incidents?

No, I plan to cover a 100% of the incidents I am involved in.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 8, 2007, 09:44 PM
If the distribution of shots needed has a density function on y that is asymptotic to positive infinity on the X axis, you can't do that if the question is to define how many you need to carry to cover 100% of incidents.

Blackwater OPS
January 8, 2007, 09:53 PM
If the distribution of shots needed has a density function on y that is asymptotic to positive infinity on the X axis, you can't do that if the question is to define how many you need to carry to cover 100% of incidents.

:confused: I think we need a three dimensional graph here to show factor z, that is a shooters lack of ability to hit the target.:D

Pointer
January 8, 2007, 10:03 PM
NCHornet
It is up to each person to ask themselves these same questions and decide what they are comfortable with.
It appears that the thread starter is trying to do just that...
He wants info with which to make an informed decision...

If he doesn't want info from experience and opinions... he can say so...and he apparently has...

njtrigger (Thread starter)
My question is this. . .in real life situations, what are the actual number of bullets that have been needed.
I believed that I was, in fact, offering a reasonable answer to this question...
My apologies if you think otherwise... :cool:

swmike
January 8, 2007, 10:25 PM
I carry the extra 26 rounds on the side opposite my gun just to keep my belt level. I also figure what the heck, they may come in handy if I actually do get into a gunfight:rolleyes:

Seriously, there is no way to know how many if "enough". It sure is a bitch to get more though when TSHTF.

David Armstrong
January 9, 2007, 05:25 PM
My world has been pretty simple. Outside of the military, I've never needed more than 3 rounds in a gunfight. The problem is sometimes finding the right three in all the others you fire<G>! Seriously, multiple events, all solved with 3 rounds or less. What do I carry? I'm comfortable with whatever is in the gun. It might be a 5-shot snub, it might be a 17 shot Glock. I'm not a LEO these days, I don't have to chase the BG, all I've got to do is make him want to go someplace else. Most criminals are not particularly dedicated, and they don't want to get hurt. That is especially true of the type of criminal most Firing Line members are likely to encounter. Non-dedicated type, one round is usually more than enough. You draw the short straw and get a dedicated assailant, 50 rounds might not be enough. Any line you draw will be arbitrary, so they are all pretty much the same, IMO.

OBIWAN
January 9, 2007, 05:52 PM
"one round is usually more than enough"

Oh heck...then go with the rubber gun and a firecracker;)

But I firmly believe that if you DO decide to carry a rubber gun it should be really big so you really scare those non-dedicated criminal types

And so it will hurt them more if you hit them with it:D

And make it a really loud firecracker

revjen45
January 9, 2007, 08:00 PM
As noted earlier in this thread, each situation is unique. A 270#, 6'3" 3-time loser meth head with a jailhouse buff and a 5'4" female cop trying to cuff him is determined not to go back to prison, is pumped, and will probably take more crunch to subdue than a 120# woman hating creep who thinks he's going to use his genitals to carve his initials in some lady's soul. The first will die before he gives up and will have to be totally incapacitated even to the point of killing him- the second will fill his knickers when his intended victim begins to lay some sucking chest wounds on him. One would expect a .357 Mag to the heart to stop anyone, but a woman cop took such injury, and IIRC killed her assailant and survived on pure will to live and determination not to lose her life to such scum. One of the perps in the infamous Miami shootout continued to fight effectively for some time after receiving a mortal wound. People have been stopped with one shot from a .25 and others have fought effectively while they bled to death inside from multiple mortal hits. As Evan Marshall says (apologies if I wrongly attribute)- they ain't dead until you see brains, and unless you penetrate the brain case or sever the spinal cord the perp will decide when he quits. Obviously the harder you hit the better your chances, but RPGs aren't currently commonly available, and they're hard to conceal. Has anyone considered a 25mm flare for close-up SD use?

kgpcr
January 9, 2007, 09:06 PM
My weapon holds 15rnds of .40. That is more than enough but i do carry and extra mag because it takes up no additional space. I have heard so many stories where a guy takes 4 shots to the chest with 00buck from 15ft all center mass and keeps coming... bull****. I want to see it. I have also heard stories of a .40 180grn bullet not making it through a rib again i call bull****. those stories may be true if you had to shoot through a car door to make the hit. I just dont belive all the crap that is being told on these boards. no doubt it may have happened once or twice but i am not concerned. I bought two lottery tickets today. I have a better chance of winning that than not being able to take out a problem with 15 rounds.

gnut
January 9, 2007, 09:30 PM
I shot a rattle snake or at 19 times with a glock 17. Friends at the hunting camp asked why I shot 19 times. Told them I didn't have any more bullets.

Jason_G
January 9, 2007, 10:03 PM
How many? This is one example of how many it can take:

From another thread in the T&T section...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmQFu8xiTM



Jason

kgpcr
January 9, 2007, 10:11 PM
another reason not to carry a 9mm. a .45 and he would have been toast

OBIWAN
January 10, 2007, 08:21 AM
Mr. Meyer

Please stop...you are making my head hurt

David Armstrong
January 10, 2007, 03:57 PM
Oh heck...then go with the rubber gun and a firecracker
Why? There is no advantage to carrying the rubber gun and firecracker in those situations where a regular gun can be carried, and lots of potentail downside. The potential advantage/downside equation narrows significantly when you start talking about functioning weapons and ammunition loads. As with so much, it becomes a matter of risk analysis and cost versus benefit comparisons.

David Armstrong
January 10, 2007, 04:00 PM
another reason not to carry a 9mm. a .45 and he would have been toast
:eek: Do people still believe that kind of stuff???

Pointer
January 10, 2007, 05:01 PM
another reason not to carry a 9mm. a .45 and he would have been toast
I like the .45 as much as anyone...

I "dis" the 9mm as often as anybody...

But, in this video, the LEO on the right should have killed the perp the very instant he aimed
a gun at the other officer...

Instead, he gave the perp the opportunity to kill his friend... and then make himself the second vic!

The reason he didn't??... because he was not properly trained to be in the "offensive mindset"... He was probably "trained" to risk his own life to protect the life of the criminal... "defense against lawsuit mindset" ... bull-oney! . :mad:

He also, "sprayed" his shots rather than "place" them...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

An officer and friend, here in Salt Lake City... is an incredibly outstanding marksman... (He is also the marksmanship training officer for SLPD). He was first car in a high-speed chase and far ahead the backups... the suspect vehicle crashed into a fence...came to a stop and my friend was out of his vehicle, with gun in hand, when three armed "ganstas" jumped out of the car... with their guns in hand, my friend had every legal and/or moral right to kill them all... (And if anybody could do it, it was this LEO.)

Instead he risked his own life, yelled at them to drop their guns and thus gave them the "drop" on him... and for a very long moment... there was hesitation... before they decided to drop their weapons and surrender... if all three of them had started spraying bullets at the same time... there's a very reasonable possibility that a stray round might have found my firend's head...

When asked why he didn't just shoot them...while he had the drop on them, he said he hesitated because somone might be video-taping him and he would have to defend his action in court... :mad:

Cops are getting shafted from both sides...

There ain't no gravity... this liberal world SUX.

DeathRodent
January 10, 2007, 07:33 PM
Forget the studies - I carry what I think I will need depending on the situation.

Sunday afternoon watching football a 5 shot .38 is fine with me.

But if I am thinking of waking up at 3am from a deep sleep and maybe I have to react fast - well, then I want 10 or more rounds because my eyes and brain will be foggy - I wouldn't just shoot at sounds or indistinct shapes but I need my glasses at night and if that 6 ft tall shape in the doorway isn't my wife (and it isn't) then I think I would like to have the option of those extra rounds. I say ten because I live in kalifornia and they think 10 is enough only criminals deserve to carry hi capacity mag's...although I do have a P 12 with 2 12 round mags!

45-70
January 10, 2007, 09:05 PM
I have not been unfortunate enough to be tested by bad guys, but I have been confronted by some nasty four-legged critters and some, like gnut was, critters with no legs at all. I was surprised by a cottonmouth moccasin once at a distance of less than 12 inches. I had a nine-shot High Standard Sentinel .22 revolver and fired all 9 at it after stepping back another foot or so. (move and shoot?).

As far as I know, not one bullet touched him, but the noise must have discouraged him some, because he slithered off into some bushes. I could not reload fast enough to get another shot.

Judging by that experience (40 years ago), I figure it will take all the bullets I have, and reloading will be tough. So I frequently carry six more bullets, but I carry them in a second revolver (another .44 these days).

By the way, I still have my grandfather's old .22 revolver, and I'm still amazed at how bad it shoots!

wayneinFL
January 10, 2007, 09:22 PM
"another reason not to carry a 9mm. a .45 and he would have been toast"

There's another video out there of a suspect shot with a 45. 45's aren't magic either.

"The potential advantage/downside equation narrows significantly when you start talking about functioning weapons and ammunition loads. As with so much, it becomes a matter of risk analysis and cost versus benefit comparisons."

I'd agree with some on here that more is better. I've never heard anyone say after an incident that they nwish they didn't have all that extra ammo left over.

But I just can't bring myself to walk around all day with my Glock 22 with 16 rounds and two more full 15 round mags on me all day, every day. I pocket carry a snubby 38 most of the time. When I feel like I should be carrying I carry a Glock with night sights and usually a reload. But that's pretty rare.

I thank God I've never had to use any of them. I usually manage to stay out of trouble.

KingofAttendance
January 11, 2007, 12:10 AM
how many bullets do i really need?

i'd say 3-5 of something .45 or above

CoDean
January 11, 2007, 12:37 AM
my wifes cousin is an exellent shooter and has had alot of self-defence training. he called me one night and said he had just been attacked by three armed men. he then told me he unloaded a 15 round clip of 9mm. at them and said he thought he hit or killed at least one of them. by the time a police investigation was done it seemed he hit nothing but air. it goes to show you might be a good shot until you are in a fire fight. always keep a back up clip or speed loader if possible. keep as calm as you can and make your shots count.

SpiritWalker
January 11, 2007, 12:06 PM
Back in the misty past of my youth while employed as a cab driver, I was forced to pull my stainless steel Colt Government Model in .38 Super on four unfriendly individuals that had stated, "We're gonna **** you up!" and when I popped the vest I was wearing open and put my hand on the grip of my pistol in it's shoulder holster they said, "You ain't got no gun! We're gonna kill you!" I drew and got good sight alignment on the closest assailant's chest (approximately 4ft away), took up the trigger slack and looked into the *******’s eyes. All four assailants suddenly remembered pressing business elsewhere. I have rarely carried, or felt the need to since then and have been fortunate enough not to have needed to draw a weapon.

How many rounds did I need? IMHO, 3 magazines worth even though I didn't fire a shot. I switched to a Glock22 in the late 90’s and have a dozen hi-cap magazines for it, I rotate between them with 3 loaded at all times even though I have a Rem870 12ga loaded for home defense. If something goes bump in the night, the loaded Glock and 2 extra mags go on my belt and the 870 is in my hands.

ppcpilot
January 12, 2007, 10:59 AM
Cousin of mine...like a brother to me, so I'm not making anything up. He's LEO...had to take a guy but through a car window. 4 shots of .40 did it.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 12, 2007, 11:25 AM
Why do all the 2 to 3, 3 to 5 people, assume only one attacker?

That may be true as modal but many incidents have more.

Again, to make your head hurt, folks really need to consider the outer bounds rather than mean or the mode.

According to the stats, you need NO rounds - modally.

Pointer
January 12, 2007, 12:21 PM
njtrigger asked...
How many bullets did it take for you to get the situation under control?
Glenn
Why do all the 2 to 3, 3 to 5 people, assume only one attacker?

We don't... that's why we carry up to 10 times what we need for the average gunfight... ;)
...folks really need to consider the outer bounds rather than mean or the mode.

We do... that's why we carry up to 10 times what we need for the average gunfight... :)
:D

OBIWAN
January 12, 2007, 01:19 PM
Ok Glenn...that was a little less painful

I don't come here to think man!!!

Anyway....as I said earlier, everyone is assuming a straight up old west gunfight against a single "no-dedicated" assailant

Is that really the way to bet?

Perhaps a better question is

How much would you carry if you knew you were going in harms way?

revjen45
January 12, 2007, 08:16 PM
If I knew I was going in harm's way I would need a gun bearer to pack all my iron and extra lead, or I would stay home and watch Oprah that day. One of my favorite movies is "The Outlaw Josey Wales." IIRC he carries 2 saddle revolvers and 4 on his person in addition to his long guns. Arthritis of the spine limits how much weight I can walk with. 2 guns and lotsa magazines/speed loaders (+ 2 knives) are the best I can do.

JohnKSa
January 12, 2007, 10:36 PM
It's easy to make a good case for anything from one to twenty.

Justification for one round:

Statistics say that most self-defensive gun uses don't involve any shooting at all but that when a shot IS fired, it generally ends the encounter even if the attacker is not seriously wounded or hit. So one is all you need in the vast majority of cases.

Justification for twenty rounds:

It's reasonable to plan for multiple attackers; it wouldn't take much research to back that up. Then factor in the hit rate in real-world gunfights of about 20%--1 hit in 5 shots. Now make the well-warranted assumption that it's going to take more than one pistol round to ensure that an attacker is incapacitated.

Then the minimum you would reasonably want to carry would be calculated by: 2 attackers times 2 hits times 5 shots for each hit = 20 rounds.

Pointer
January 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
JohnKSa
Then the minimum you would reasonably want to carry would be calculated by: 2 attackers times 2 hits times 5 shots for each hit = 20 rounds.

Works for me! ;)

tshadow6
January 13, 2007, 08:41 PM
The one situation I was in, I was quite confident with the 6 rounds of .38 +P STHP. I was all set to put 6 in his chest then reload. Fortunatley for him, the situation resolved itself without any shots being fired. For daily c.c., I am comfortable with the one mag worth in my weapon. For traveling, I keep several weapons along with spare ammo.

David Armstrong
January 17, 2007, 03:09 PM
How much would you carry if you knew you were going in harms way?
If I knew I was going in harms way I'd go another way!

STAGE 2
January 17, 2007, 06:33 PM
"How many rounds do you need" isn't the proper question. You've actually got it backwards.

The proper question is "what are the proper tactics given the rounds that I'm carrying."

If I'm walking around with my 5 shot snubbie or my seecamp, I'm not going to re-enact custers last stand. In that situation, my particular pistol is going to be used to slow my attacker enough to get out of Dodge. (Which brings me to a side note, good shooting is only half the equation. Physical fitness and the ability to scoot once a problem arises along with the situational awareness to realize it is the other half.)

If I happen to have my USP and 2 spare mages, the situation changes slightly... not markedly but slightly.

Bottom line, the most important thing that you can use isn't in your holster, its between your ears. Maintain that distinction and you'll be fine.

If I'm in my home then we have an entirely different matter.

G-Cym
January 18, 2007, 12:15 AM
It's easy to make a good case for anything from one to twenty.

Justification for one round:

Statistics say that most self-defensive gun uses don't involve any shooting at all but that when a shot IS fired, it generally ends the encounter even if the attacker is not seriously wounded or hit. So one is all you need in the vast majority of cases.

Justification for twenty rounds:

It's reasonable to plan for multiple attackers; it wouldn't take much research to back that up. Then factor in the hit rate in real-world gunfights of about 20%--1 hit in 5 shots. Now make the well-warranted assumption that it's going to take more than one pistol round to ensure that an attacker is incapacitated.

Then the minimum you would reasonably want to carry would be calculated by: 2 attackers times 2 hits times 5 shots for each hit = 20 rounds.


Sounds good to me. I usually carry 21 rounds, though 10 of them are in a spare mag in my backpack, which goes everywhere with me. I think the 11 in my Taurus should handle most situations. I can't imagine ever really needing to the reload, unless I am in some crazy North Hollywood Shootout situation. And of course if that happened, I would probably just head for cover and stay there til it's over.

Tokamak
January 18, 2007, 12:38 AM
I had to pull my gun once. I did not have to fire it to disuade the bad guy. As soon as he stopped, I retreated. Note: I did call 911 and informed them of the incident. They found me to be justified.

If I ever have to fire, I have 5 in my .357 and 6 in my .380. As I am not in the military nor an LEO, I believe that that is enough ammunition. That does not make me right - it is just what I have decided is prudent. You could be just as right carrying 2 in a derringer or 3 spare mags for your .45.

Deaf Smith
January 18, 2007, 08:12 AM
No one in combat ever complained about having to large a gun/cartridge nor about having to much ammo. It's far better to have a few extra rounds than not quite enough, same goes for power and accuracy.

That is why I recomend if you carry a revolver, carry two (it's just so slow to reloaded in the dark, in the rain, one handed, moving, etc...)

And that is why I like Glocks. Plenty of ammo if you do your part. Stats be danged as for how many shots on the average. Average is for the birds. Average is for the mediocrity. Are you average? Are you exaclty 5 ft 8? Are you exactly average weight. Average hands, average IQ, average shot?

Well carry as many rounds as you feel comfortable with, and then hope you don't need them.