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View Full Version : Video: Shot with LEO .45 and still fighting for minutes


Para Bellum
January 3, 2007, 04:45 PM
This video is informative: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqT2jQhMZo

I am not posting this to bash the .45. I believe that his could happen with any (hand-)gun. But I guess this video is important to show many of us what reaction to expect when firing a (single) shot in defense: none.

Buzzkill
January 3, 2007, 06:19 PM
Regards to the civilian placing a bearhug on the meth addict .Good job !

Primer
January 3, 2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the video.

Axion
January 3, 2007, 10:08 PM
WOW I'm amazed at the self control of the LEO.

cloudcroft
January 3, 2007, 10:23 PM
Self-control?

:confused:

The cop was scared and confused by the guy not reacting as he "should" have after being shot...the cop didn't know what to do after that and his response was completely disorganized.

The chaos only ended when the citizen got involved and the cuffs were put on the suspect.

This is not a video to show cops what to do, but what not to do.

-- John D.

Trip20
January 3, 2007, 10:45 PM
The cop was scared and confused by the guy not reacting as he "should" have after being shot...the cop didn't know what to do after that and his response was completely disorganized.

I received a dissimilar impression.

It seemed to me that the officer reached a point where he felt his own physical abilities were enough to occupy the attacker. The officer seemed contented with his ability to counter the lunatics futile & lazy struggle until medical assistance and backup arrived. Just so happened that a fellow citizen came to offer assistance in the mean time.

There was no hard take down. No knee to the neck. No SWAT team. So, maybe not a textbook encounter - agreed. :)

I think the officer showed great restraint.

I'm sure officers could watch the video and point out plenty of protocol errors, but in the end, the officer in the video is responsible for his own decisions and I guess he felt he had it under control.

mete
January 3, 2007, 10:59 PM
That's been around for a while . He's surprised that the 45 didn't have greater effect - yet he didn't understand that a stomach hit is a poor hit !!! COM hits , or better upper chest area is what is needed !! Only GOOD hits count !:rolleyes:

Daves-got-guns
January 3, 2007, 11:27 PM
yeah the big thing with what everybody thinx as the .45 is one shot and it blows them off theyre feet, but he was HIGH on drugs, and if i was in a similar situation i would try to fire repeatedly just because of what i have heard of methheads and cokeheads being able to do to you. That drug addict was confused, high and resisting and damn lucky he didnt get killed that night.

RoscoeC
January 3, 2007, 11:30 PM
I am not a LEO, but my training has been to place rounds in the area bounded by the nipples and chin. I have also been trained to never fire a single shot and wait to see if it had the desired effect. A single round from any handgun will rarely produce the desired results. Whether the officer was showing restraint or fear or bad judgement, he was definitely placeing his life in danger.

theberettaman
January 4, 2007, 12:16 AM
...but the 45acp is the ultimate "MAN STOPPER". My god,how dare the perp not die.He was shot with a 45! I think the video has been tampered with and that the guy was really shot with the whimpy 9mm.I'm afraid there will have to be a full 85 billion dollar government study and investigation to clairify this. :barf:
(well,it's time to start bashing the 45acp for being too puney) :D

Axion
January 4, 2007, 12:52 AM
Self-control?
:confused:


I meant in terms of controlling his temper. I imagine in that sort of situation (combative man comes at you with a knife) many people would have shot that man dead. This officer managed to handle the situation without anyone dying.

I think the officer showed great restraint.

Yes, restraint is the word I should have used.

threegun
January 4, 2007, 05:38 AM
Anyone who doesn't agree that the officer was definitely confused after the shooting needs to watch it again. You can tell in how long it takes him to take the man down. From how he talked to his physical actions you could tell the officer felt sorry for the guy who just tried to kill him. Things ended great for all but the officer took greater risk than he should have and it was due to being confused after the shot IMO.

Nortonics
January 4, 2007, 07:47 AM
I just can't believe that big ol' Cop didn't cave in the bad guys face with one good punch - he certainly had the chance...

Daves-got-guns
January 4, 2007, 12:42 PM
i think that cop had too many morals, and that bg SHOULD have taken on more lead then he did. Cop seemed confused about what was goin on, and it is a high stress sitiation, but still that coke head refused to give up and things could have turned out alot worse on either partys side.

Samurai
January 4, 2007, 01:21 PM
So when that old FBI report came out that said "knock-down power is a myth," and "it takes nearly a minute to bleed down to incapacitation with a single GSW from a .45 through soft tissue," they were telling the TRUTH, huh? They weren't kidding, were they?

That FBI report has been the subject of SO MUCH criticism, but this video shows that it's really TRUE! A .45 (or any pistol, for that matter) cannot be relied upon to stop a charging threat! SO MANY THINGS can happen in the time it takes the assailant to bleed out.

What gets me about this is, what was it that FINALLY brought the guy down? The cop using a well-placed foot sweep and takedown technique! MARTIAL ARTS is what stopped him!!! This goes to show that all these people who focus their training on ONLY firing a pistol are NOT training to their maximum potential, and they are NOT ready to take down a charging threat.

Train, train, train!

Tokamak
January 4, 2007, 02:10 PM
I saw that on cops a long time ago. I do not think I realized it was a .45.

How the hell do you keep running around like a nut after taking one in the gut like that? He must have been on some serious drugs.

That video is worth re-watching.

NCHornet
January 4, 2007, 02:11 PM
First of all shooting a guy in the gut and waiting for him to "bleed out" is not a very good self defense plan. As you can see the BG remained very wel able to continue the attack. Now if the copp would have placed the same round or another in the BG's chest, taking out one or both of his lungs, like he should have, the BG would have a hard time continuing because he wouldn't be able to breathe. I am just glad he wasn't hurt or killed as it very easily could have happened and also that he learned from this and what to do different next time. Not trying to be a computer commando just calling it as I see it.

Prophet
January 4, 2007, 02:11 PM
In the same situation I think I'd be alittle confused also. But where the cop stopped I would have continued, I would have put 8 little holes in his chest. then if he didn't stop i'd reload and put 8 more. You can't really think your going to stop someone hopped up on dope if you shot them one time in the stomach thats a stupid assumption.

mete
January 4, 2007, 03:10 PM
I guess you guys are not hunters . How many times have you heard of a hunter gut shooting a deer and either losing the deer or having to track it for very long distances.And that's with rifles !

Para Bellum
January 4, 2007, 03:38 PM
...but the 45acp is the ultimate "MAN STOPPER". My god,how dare the perp not die.He was shot with a 45! I think the video has been tampered with and that the guy was really shot with the whimpy 9mm.I'm afraid there will have to be a full 85 billion dollar government study and investigation to clairify this.:barf:
(well,it's time to start bashing the 45acp for being too puney) :D

Agreed. That would never have happened with a 9x19mm or a 7,62x25 Tokarev! :D
(JUST KIDDING, pleeeez)

I just can't believe that big ol' Cop didn't cave in the bad guys face with one good punch - he certainly had the chance...
He who has not fought for his life in CQB yet shall not crtitzise a man who did and could avoid a killing and being killed alike.

That FBI report has been the subject of SO MUCH criticism, but this video shows that it's really TRUE! A .45 (or any pistol, for that matter) cannot be relied upon to stop a charging threat!
neither a .308, a .223 or a 12ga slug. Sad but true. If you want to life you have to keep shooting until the threat no longer is a threat.

What gets me about this is, what was it that FINALLY brought the guy down? The cop using a well-placed foot sweep and takedown technique! MARTIAL ARTS is what stopped him!!! This goes to show that all these people who focus their training on ONLY firing a pistol are NOT training to their maximum potential, and they are NOT ready to take down a charging threat.

Train, train, train!
Absolutely. What saves your life at handgun distance is a cold-blooded well placed CNS-hit or multiple COM hits while you move and fight hand to hand. A guy trying to kill you at closest range won't wait for you to succeed stopping him...

How the hell do you keep running around like a nut after taking one in the gut like that? He must have been on some serious drugs.

Unfortunately not. Many man don't even realize that they have already been shot in a CQB-fight. The body want's to survive and get out of trouble and if pain is in the way, the body temporarily shuts the pain off. klick and you keep fighting no matter how lethal your wound might be in the end.

Osborn F. Enready
January 4, 2007, 03:56 PM
Aside from everything else that has been said.....

Why was the guy pulled over?

What gave the cop the right to ask to search the vehicle? The fact that it was not legally registered, or the issue of registration?

I am more troubled with the reasons for the stop, than the reaction of the officer once in the situation. The guy made a move, but was he provoked by an unjust stop?

I am not siding with anyone here, simply asking the, what I consider to be, OBVIOUS.

Daves-got-guns
January 4, 2007, 04:08 PM
seems to me cop asked to search the truck, man complied THEN when his coke stash was found out he went at him with a knife. I think he was high on drugs, cause while people are erradic after they have been shot he charged a effing cop with a knife. Then he grabbed the radio and pitched it and kept on refusing when it was a cop for christs sake! Not a cop, dont know protocall but i always thought once a person allowed the cop to search, that it was all legal.

OBIWAN
January 4, 2007, 04:52 PM
There are plenty of cases of bad guys taking several "good hits" and continuing. (lots of good guys too)

All the talk of stopping power lull people into the false belief that 1 or two shots (double-tap) will take care of the attacker

People need to be aware...and understand that multiple good hits will be required and may still not get the job done in time...no matter what caliber or magic bullet you are using.

You may still end up grappling with the bad guy, you may get cut, etc unless you are moving off the line as well.

Even if you shoot them multiple times

One shot might be enough (unlikely)

But you should not bet your life on it...oand don't be surprised if it doesn't even seem to have any effect.

Shoot them until they are down...and then watch them closely

njtrigger
January 4, 2007, 10:47 PM
The officer did not do a good job and here is why.

This man obviously had a knife in his hand and was out inflict severe injury on the officer. The officer should have shot the man 2-3 times all at once.

Shooting him once only provoked him further and the man could have had more hidden weapons.

When you fire on a person, you always try to place at least two, but preferably three, shots. What if this man was able to use the knife on the officer afterwards, would you still be saying he did a good job?

Daves-got-guns
January 5, 2007, 05:14 AM
if i fire on a person, its gonna be enough to put him/possibly her on their back. Drugs have gotten soo potent, that these methheads dont care about anything, they just act and even boozed up guys can still cause alot of damage with lead in their gut region.

Even if i had a .454 with big expanding bullets i would fire atleast 3 times, if he was still standing after the first 2 that is.

Where we goto hunt is very very full of drugged out people, who fit 30 people in a trailer that is surrounded with add ons to look somewhat like a house and i never really thought about it, but its a good thing we generally keep noisemakers with us all the time.

I usually like to have the .357 under the seat and ready to go, but the 9mm with its bottomless clip is nothing to laugh at either.

Trip20
January 5, 2007, 10:31 AM
Just as the, "one should only draw if one intends to fire" attitude is too absolute for real life, so follows the "one must fire multiple rounds at an attacker until they fall down".

It appears people feel "stopping the threat" means - and only means - one response is relevant.

If this officer felt either the immediate threat ceased, or that the threat became controllable to a degree that did not warrant further shooting – I say he used great restraint where others might have kept going.

Many Rambos would foam at the mouth for an 'opportunity' to empty their magazine at an attacker such as in this video. To justify this action they swear by philosophies so absolute that little opportunity exists for a response relevant to the threat posed – rather all threats receive the same response.

I’d wager the officer is satisfied with the outcome, and with knowing he did not take another human’s life.

delzo
January 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
I agree Trip20. The ,,,, I woulda, coulda,,,, he shoulda doesn't fly. Until you've been in a situation where the adrenaline is squirting out your ears,,,, nobody knows what they would do. Believe me,,, you go on auto-pilot and nothing makes sense.

Did anyone key in that the officer was NOT in fear of his life after the shot was fired and the knife dropped? He realized the bad guy was no longer a threat enough to have to shoot him again and it appeared he was trying to prevent further injury to the moron,,,, if he could. After all else failed he had to resort to putting him on the ground and was still treating the guy right. Hooray for him.

Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat.

mvpel
January 5, 2007, 11:13 AM
Stark contrast with the UCLA video, eh?

akr
January 5, 2007, 11:18 AM
He should have used a .22 on the bad guy, so it that the bullet would have riccocheted around in his body and killed him. :D

Big Don
January 5, 2007, 12:49 PM
I saw this video several years ago and thought the same thing I did when I watched it again: what was that cop thinking when he let the BG pull a knife to "open the box."??? I'm not a cop-basher and have numerous friends who are LEOs but that was a stupid move. :eek:
Now, for a one-shot stop, check this one out. Don't know the caliber but it's worth seeing as a comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK7h5wSeets&NR

phoglund
January 5, 2007, 05:42 PM
Cop went home, bad guy went to hospital/jail. Not a bad outcome for a deadly force encounter with a drugged up suspect. No such encounter is likely to be perfect in the real world. I'd say in this case don't argue with success.

mete
January 5, 2007, 09:17 PM
The 45acp is a worthless cartridge !!! www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/05/D8MFB7A02.html :rolleyes:

Jason607
January 6, 2007, 03:13 AM
mete: That was a falling bullet. Mythbusters did a special about that, a falling bullet will hit terminal velosity as the wind resistance becomes higher than the wight of the bullet. Only if it is shot at an angle where it may retain it's trajectory will it cause damamge.

The guy was shot just above the hip. Nothing really vital there. The fact is, unless you land a bullet right in the heart, or brain, it will not instantly kill. You hit them in the lungs, they will either bleed to death, or drown in thier own blood, but it still won't be instant. Most deaths by gunshot are from bleeding to death. There is the shock factor that may "stop" them. Also, many people who have a functioning brain, relize they are shot and then saving thier life is thier only concern. But you get someone in a complete suicidal rage, or espeically on drugs, you better put one in the heart or brain.

That police officer showed a lot of restriant. If he finished that guy off it would have been justified. That POS meth-head probally got sympathy from the judge because he had been shot. POS's like that do not need to be with free society.

Para Bellum
January 6, 2007, 04:47 AM
The 45acp is a worthless cartridge !!! www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/05/D8MFB7A02.html

:p I don't believe that another caliber in the methhead's gut would have done significantly better (maybe 12ga 00 or a fragmenting .223). But I have attended tests myself and read more reports of .45 bullets failing to penetrate as well as the "thinner" calibers like 9x19, .357 Sig/Mag or 7,62 Tokarev. Solid leather jackets or skull bones can stop a .45, thats a fact. Still: Foor steel challanges or bowling pin shooting, the momentum of the .45 is unbeaten....

akr
January 6, 2007, 12:31 PM
Just make sure you shoot 3 times, like 2 (to the triangle) and 1 to the head.

When YOUR life is at danger, forget having a "soft" heart.

delta58
January 6, 2007, 01:19 PM
I've seen a guy shot 6 times with a 9mm and survive and I've seen a 1 shot drop with a .22. The stomach is not the place for a one shot stop unless it's 00 buckshot maybe. Not faulting the officer, the guy came at him with a knife he drew and fired. The advantage still goes to the guy without a bullet in his guts.

Someoldguy
January 6, 2007, 02:39 PM
The officer did a good job under a very tough situation. And hat's off to the citizen who stopped to help.

Interestingly enough, I recently heard of a shooting involving a .45 Long Colt to the abdomen in which the victim stayed alert and responsive. This was even as he was treated and released from the hospital!

(Reminder to self: Shot placement is crucial!)

Jason607
January 6, 2007, 04:24 PM
I agree, a buckshot would have torn up so much tissue he wouldn't be able to stand, probally broke the back on the other side as well. A more powerfull weapon would have blown through the other side, much more damage, probally a broken pelvis, now that would have put him on the ground.

For one thing, most people don't relize what really happens in a fight like that. Even defence classes, teach you to draw, aim with arms extended.... not what happened there. Martial arts, most teach to keep your distance. IRL, that doesn't happen. Kind of like in a fist fight, sometime you just trow a sloppy punch or kick just to get the hit in, the officer could barley pull his weapon, he just needed to get in a hit, and for the most part it worked. He should have kept shooting because it almost turned around on him. My point is, if you get in a situation with a knife fight, that is most likley what it will be like.

I know many people who have been shot, some accidently, some military, a few LEO's. A Korean War vet told me when he got shot around the kidney, if felt like a punch. He figured a rock or something kicked up hit him. He said he got up and started running then felt wet, then relized it was a shot. He ran to cover, then called the medic. None of them who had been shot (of course not fatally) were downed by the shots. When I was 16, I got into a fight with another boy and when I got the upper hand, his little brother who was 13 grabbed a small baseball bat and jumped in. He got me several times, and I hurt bad later, but i ended up beating both of them. (the older was bigger than I was) I felt the hits, but they weren't stopping me.

Daves-got-guns
January 7, 2007, 10:32 AM
ya know people and animals are funny when it comes to high stress situations, and you can never predict how things will go down. I dont care if its a .22 magnum, or a .454 casull you have to make your hits first. of course with the latter i would feel more confident with 2-3 hits and the former i would unload everything i had on the bg. Our courts are sooo effed up that alot of times the bg is some sort of valiant in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong drugs, and ohh that cop was using too much force. Wasnt rodney king on drugs? maybe those cops were excessive, maybe not im not here to judge.

Hook686
January 7, 2007, 09:22 PM
01-05-2007, 09:31 AM #26

Trip20 wrote:


Just as the, "one should only draw if one intends to fire" attitude is too absolute for real life, so follows the "one must fire multiple rounds at an attacker until they fall down".

It appears people feel "stopping the threat" means - and only means - one response is relevant.

If this officer felt either the immediate threat ceased, or that the threat became controllable to a degree that did not warrant further shooting – I say he used great restraint where others might have kept going.

Many Rambos would foam at the mouth for an 'opportunity' to empty their magazine at an attacker such as in this video. To justify this action they swear by philosophies so absolute that little opportunity exists for a response relevant to the threat posed – rather all threats receive the same response.

I’d wager the officer is satisfied with the outcome, and with knowing he did not take another human’s life.




To which, on

01-05-2007, 10:54 AM #27

delzo wrote:


I agree Trip20. The ,,,, I woulda, coulda,,,, he shoulda doesn't fly. Until you've been in a situation where the adrenaline is squirting out your ears,,,, nobody knows what they would do. Believe me,,, you go on auto-pilot and nothing makes sense.

Did anyone key in that the officer was NOT in fear of his life after the shot was fired and the knife dropped? He realized the bad guy was no longer a threat enough to have to shoot him again and it appeared he was trying to prevent further injury to the moron,,,, if he could. After all else failed he had to resort to putting him on the ground and was still treating the guy right. Hooray for him.

Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by delzo : 01-05-2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason: ?


Personally, I view this type response as, 'limited thinking'.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, or cause a war. Not everyone has the skill, or training of a LEO, even the poorest trained LEO. I'm one such person. Unfortunately, all the training, no matter how expert, or how intense, or extensive, will never get me to the level of skill, as even the most limited trained LEO. This is just a physical fact of life, unfortunately.

I am very aware that the best chance I have is to follow the advice of Bill Sansom, retired Undersheriff, Mineral County, Montana, who advises, "a handgun should never be used as a deterrent, but, if needed, it should be drawn and fired immediately, and always used to kill - not to wound or frighten your attacker." ('Not Looking To Die', A. Macomber, 2001, Applegate Books, Applegate, CA.)

Note: Bill Sansom was hit COM with two 240 grain .44 magnum rounds, as he responded to a duty call, at the door of a local resident. A third .44 magnum 240 grain round ripped out leg muscle, and ruptured the artery in his thigh.

I'm not near as capable as Bill Sansom, nor will I ever be. He was able to take out the Bad Guy, with his .357 magnum loaded with 158 grain JHP's. I would have died.

I think Mr. Sanson's advice is sound. I am not a Rambo. The LEO may not have been in fear of his life, after the shot was fired, as suggested by delzo. I can assure you that I would have been, with an aggressive man confronting me, even with only fists. I agree with delzo that, "Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat".

'Never use the word never. - S.I. Hayakawa

Tripplethreat
January 10, 2007, 04:52 PM
You can second guess Mike's actions all you want to,but bear in mind that the shot was made at point blank range.
I'll give you a little history on "Miami Mike" if you're interested. Mike Ralston is one of the finest troopers to ever put on the uniform.When this man went to trial the judge told him at the end that Trooper Ralston used uncannily remarkable restraint in shootimg him only once. I agree.
There was and probably still is a practice with the Ga. State Patrol of awarding Troopers a lightinng bolt which is painted on their cars for every felony stop they make resulting in arrest.Ralston had lightning bolts completely down one side of his patrol car.They started at the front fender and went all the way back,scross the doors to the end of the rear fender on one side.A pretty long row of the blue lightning bolts was already started on the other side of the car.
Mike Ralston's specialty was drug i nterdiction traffic stops along I-75 in Gordon county. He has made so many big,big cases they're innumerable.
Some of you may remember Van Keller,the Ga. State Trooper who wrote many articles for Combat handguns and other law e nforcement oriented publications.While Mike was building his incredible reputation along the interstate, Keller was testing and evaluating the Smith & Wesson Mod. 645 for possible adoption by the GSP. Mike was becoming well kn own and Keller sent the T&E 645 down to Ralston to give him more firepower should an incident involving several perpetartors happened to go bad.
I fired that particular 645 on a couple of occasions.My partner with the SO and I have backed up Ralston on several of the interdiction stops. Keller was stationed in an adjoining county.
My partner liked the 645 and bought himself one shortly after the first time we fired Mike's gun. I was carrying a customed S&W 629 4 inch at the time and was well satisfied with that. The big transition to autos had only recently started in law enforcement. Eventually the improved Mod. 4506 was introduced and the Ga State troopers were given a choice of that or the 5906 in 9mm. About half chose the 45,the other half chose the nine.
Since that time they have transitoned to Glock 22's,and are now moving from these to the Glock 37's in 45 GAP.
This incident shows two things. First of all it shows a Trooper's restraint,and second of all it once again proves that one shot cannot be counted on regardless of the caliber. Mike had every right to shoot and probably should have shot to slide lock or at least until the perp was out for the count.
That he did not do so,resulted in the man living,standing trial and going to prison. Trooper Ralston's mother was killed by a drunk driver in Calhoun while I was a deputy there. He did not exact revenge on every dru nk driver he arrested after that,he just went about doing his job as usual. That in itself
speaks volumes about the kind of man he is. I feel honored to know him and respect him highly both as a friend and a law enforcement officer.
Were mistakes made? Sure,probably. All I can say is,walk a mile in his shoes. You don't know how you look,'til you get your picture took.

auburnboattail
January 10, 2007, 05:08 PM
If you are carrying a semi auto... break off a few and put the perp down.

kgpcr
January 10, 2007, 08:15 PM
I would like to have seen the results of being shot cente mass in the chest. Lower abdomen is like a non hit. shoot a deer in the gut with a ga slug and they keep running. shoot them in teh lungs and its lights out

akr
January 15, 2007, 07:08 PM
We didn't see the actual shooting, but it appears maybe the officer drew the .45 , the BG grabbed it and it discharged into his abdomen. The officer chose not to shoot him again, and I feel he felt that he could hold off the guy physically until help arrived. I don't believe the officer ever intended for the abdomen to be his target. I felt that he showed much self restraint. I'm sure that if one of us had been the officer, we would not have done any better under the circumstances, if as well.

tepin
January 15, 2007, 07:34 PM
wow. the cop should have emptied his gun in the guy

superdude
January 15, 2007, 07:44 PM
I think its funny that most people think that the is a drug addict or on something. I think that wouldhave said he was on something if that was the case. Think about the addrenalin (cant spell) runing throught the body after just trying to carve up the officer. After the shot the bg backed up and tossed the knife. The office was showing great restraint. No one needed to die just get the threat stopped and the situation under control. In the end the officer stopped the threat by protecting him self and the saving the bg from himself. The officer did his job PROTECT and SERVE.

Doug.38PR
January 15, 2007, 10:15 PM
Regards to the civilian placing a bearhug on the meth addict .Good job !

Didn't get to see that part, youtube messed up and only downloaded the first 2/3s of it. But I did see the part where the guy was shot and going around yammering and fighting with a .45 slug in him.

I remember a story Ed Lovette related in The Snubby where two policemen shoot it out with some man on LSD. They unload their 6 shot service revolvers (12 shots) and 5 shot BUGs (10 shots) into the punk with only 2 or 3 misses before he finally went down. The rounds used were .38 Spl.+P LSWCHP.

akr
January 15, 2007, 10:24 PM
Thank God for shotguns and buckshot!

Ares45
January 16, 2007, 08:22 PM
anything that's worth shooting once is worth shooting twice (or more)...

MikeGoob
January 16, 2007, 09:04 PM
not that you should aim for it, but isnt a shot to the kidney (or any wound that ruptures the kidney) nearly instantly fatal?

Big Don
January 16, 2007, 10:33 PM
Early in my career as a firefighter/paramedic, a wonderful new drug called "Angel Dust" appeared on the scene. We attended a seminar to make us more aware of what to expect (anything!) and what to watch out for (anything+mayhem):eek:
One of the police officers teaching the course recounted a shooting by the Los Angeles Sheriff's office: BG was "dusted" and on a rampage. LASO had the legal necessities to shoot him (don't remember the specifics but he needed killing) so they proceeded to dump multiple rounds into the BG. The officer recounting the story said the only reason this guy went down was because he bled out: no more blood for his heart to pump. As I recall, LASO was using 9MM ammo at the time. They dumped several mags into him, most of them being torso hits.
For the younger set, Angel Dust was an animal tranquilizer that made people quite crazy and they didn't feel the pain, unlike a former president of ours. ;)

rantingredneck
January 16, 2007, 11:55 PM
First let me say unequivocally I'm not a LEO and never have been, but I am a 22 year student of the martial arts, from empty hands, to edged weapons, to firearms. I've also worked in various mental health programs over the last 12 years of my professional life and have worked with some extremely violent individuals who required physical restraint to prevent them from injuring themselves or others, namely me. I've had to wrestle with and restrain individuals taller, stronger, and heavier than me to the ground and keep them there without injuring them or allowing them to injure me. And for a three year period in my life I did this on a near daily basis. It is from this experience that my comments about this video spring.

I notice the officer moves away only slightly when the fellow takes out a knife to open the suspicious package. To his credit he moves away and puts his hand on his gun, but he should've never allowed that fellow to draw that knife in the first place. He should've instructed the fellow to put the knife down and his hands on the vehicle or maybe even cuffed him so he could open the package himself. An average human can close a gap of 21 feet in a second and a half. The cop was no more than 5 or 6 feet away from the fellow when he was holding the blade. If he'd closed that gap faster and been able to block the cop's draw, he could've easily sustained a serious or fatal wound from the blade. Knife fighting is ugly business. One of my favorite quotes on the subject is that if two people who know what they're doing engage with blades, one is going to the hospital and the other is going to the morgue. If the assailant had known what he was doing and not been high the cop could've been in serious trouble in that situation with the gap between them being so narrow.

As it is, and as others have said, the cop seemed to fall into the fallacy of the "one shot stop". He should've double or even triple tapped him COM. A CNS shot on an advancing attacker even at that range could've been dicey. A local Sheriff in the neighboring county here got some press years ago for a shooting of a kid trying to stick up a convenience store with a pellet gun. The pellet gun looked like the real thing and the Sheriff happened to be off duty and patronizing the store at the time. He triple tapped the kid and he didn't fall so he triple tapped him a second time and he finally went down. It was of course ruled a good shoot because the kid was engaged in a felony with a fake firearm that looked just like the real thing.

The third problem I have is that the cop wrestled with the guy for a long time while his holster was admittedly unsecured. Had the gun fallen out and the BG grabbed it, well then the story would've had a much different ending...........

shooter71
January 17, 2007, 12:35 PM
i kept waiting for the LEO to club the dude with the flashlight..or use a taser, but i couldnt tell if he had one or not...but at least , i was expecting a face full of OC spray ...now if that dashboard cam hadnt been going..wellllllllllll........

Pointer
January 17, 2007, 01:38 PM
A lower abdomen shot... is worthless...

Only one shot taken... is worthless...

And this perp was on something...

The caliber doesn't matter... if you don't use it correctly... :(

Mini14
February 6, 2007, 05:40 PM
Why didn't the cop empty the magazine into him? For that matter, why didn't he have either a shotgun or a Mini14-style-rifle? I'll bet either a load of Wolf buckshot or a .223 JSP round would have ended this fight alot quicker.

A pistol is a back up for a shotgun or rifle.

MCCALL911
February 6, 2007, 06:16 PM
This is not a video to show cops what to do, but what not to do.


+1000000!

Pointer
February 7, 2007, 02:58 AM
Why didn't the cop empty the magazine into him?
He could never justify emptying his magazine into the guy... The review bard would have eaten him alive...

However, he could have shot him three times without reprisal as long as he was still threatening him with the knife... which wouldn't have been for very long...

BUT... he would still have needed to put them into his chest and head... :(

straightShot
February 7, 2007, 06:24 AM
I haven't been able to view either of the videos posted on YouTube and instead see a message that states "This video has been removed due to terms of use violation".

Are there any other links?

akr
February 7, 2007, 08:56 AM
Look at it this way. That cop is much smarter today if he is still alive, than he was before he stopped that guy. ;)

markj
February 7, 2007, 05:18 PM
For the younger set, Angel Dust was an animal tranquilizer that made people quite crazy

PCP. Many sold it to others as pure THC. It is a pig tranq, we use it on the farm or used to I should say.

Groundhog
February 15, 2007, 12:18 PM
Any other place we can find this video?

Truth Duty Valour
February 17, 2007, 02:57 AM
another source please:o

Duckman44!
February 19, 2007, 06:54 PM
I love how someone has to be high on drugs t be able to withstand a gunshot wound. We are animals people!!! Have you ever shot a deer in the bread basket with a .308 only to have it run 75 yards before keeling over??? I have once or twice. Some people are just hard nosed (no "DRUGS" needed). Some people have the ability to ignore pain and unless it's an instantly fatal shot then thats more or less all it is.

9mmsnoopy
February 21, 2007, 11:31 PM
i havent seen it and guess i wont, i clicked on the link, its been removed from youtube.

Pointer
February 24, 2007, 05:45 PM
The video was of a LEO searching a perp and his vehicle...

The perp pulled a long knife and tried to stab the LEO...

The LEO pulled his gun and shot the perp in the lower abs...

He fired only ONE round and then spent a very long minute sorta "wrestling" with him...

The point to be made is that in the sense that he risked his own life trying to spare his attacker...
He handled the situation poorly...

I believe he should have fired a double tap about 18 inches higher in order to at least put the perp on the ground in a manner that he would no longer be a threat...