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Dennis2
January 1, 2007, 05:40 PM
It's very unlikely, maybe like the odds of getting struck by lightning. But I witnessed it in St. Louis, Missouri up close and personal. I didn't witness the beginning of it, but what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man (or anyone else) wrestling and beating up a police officer on the side of the road in broad daylight? I was faced with it! I had some very mixed emotions on what to do! Like, it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.

In an instant I did decided to render help, and even getting my body messed up. I had no weapon other than to try and help wrestle this big dude with the officer's help and try and subdue him? As I pulled over to the side of the road about 30-50 yards infront of the patrol car and about to get out, I saw several police cars about to get there. I put my car in drive and cautiously left the scene knowing he had help.

Even though a person with the best of intentions tries to help the police, he will become an initial suspect and roughed up until it all gets sorted out, after the fact. Most likely he will have a knee on his neck, be roughed up some, and handcuffed at a minimum. Then there is losing work and legal battles for the do-gooder?

I would like to know if the police officer wants the civilian to stay out of it? They are the professionals.

jhenry
January 1, 2007, 07:44 PM
There are quite a few officers out there who owe their well being to a civilian who did something besides watch. Yeah, it might be awhile before the responding officers sort it all out, but would you rather watch someone get maimed? Every situation is different but a loudly yelled "I called 911" and "do you need help" would be the first 2 things to do. If I was about to get my skull caved in I would be very happy to yell back "YES PLEASE!!!" and the steak dinner would be on me. Every situation is different and a very large dose of common sense and due caution is in order. You need to get home safe too. Be careful.

ISP2605
January 1, 2007, 08:37 PM
Like, it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.
The police get paid to protect society from those bent on violating the laws. The officer was not out there wrestling with that guy just to be wrestling. It's not like some bar fight where 2 people have a difference of opinion and take it to fists.
So it is your problem if you consider yourself part of society.

Even though a person with the best of intentions tries to help the police, he will become an initial suspect and roughed up until it all gets sorted out, after the fact. Most likely he will have a knee on his neck, be roughed up some, and handcuffed at a minimum. Then there is losing work and legal battles for the do-gooder?
Why do you think that? Don't you think the officer you are helping wouldn't be screaming at the responding officers that you are helping? If you don't know the answer to that, then here's the answer - you bet he will and most likely he and the responding officers will make sure you are well taken care of for offerring to help.
Every year we have a statewide awards ceremony where we give real nice awards to everyday Joe Citizens who have stopped to help our people on traffic stops that have gone bad or in some other way made a difference by volunteering to help when they could have easily driven right on by.

Socrates
January 1, 2007, 08:47 PM
Good way to get shot. If the officer has lost control of the situation, aren't the odds real good that the BG may get his gun and shoot the officer, and the helper?

S

Haterade
January 1, 2007, 08:48 PM
what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man (or anyone else) wrestling and beating up a police officer on the side of the road in broad daylight?

For the love of God, you try to help them! Put the guy in a choke hold or something... at least give the cop enough of a chance to radio for backup (if he hasn't already) or slap cuffs on someone (or both of you). Assume he is right. After it gets sorted out later, it will be all good. Heck, even if it's not a cop, if I see someone getting their butt kicked on the street and it looks like they are in danger of gettting seriously hurt/killed... I'll do what I can to help them out. My conscience won't allow me to sit there and watch someone get beat to death. Maybe I'll get in trouble, who knows, but I'm not going to sit and watch while taking pics with my cellphone.

But to answer your question... I can't imagine a cop taking offense at an unsworn citizen helping them from the situation you described. I doubt they prefer the beatdown.

skeeter1
January 1, 2007, 09:22 PM
I was out driving one day 25-odd years ago, when I came across a LEO struggling with a BG. It just so happened that the LEO was my brother. Backup arrived quickly, and the BG was taken away.

I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did).

Would I do that again? Yes, I would. LEOs may be paid for doing some nasty work, but if I can help without getting their way, I will. I don't carry and don't pretend to be a LEO, just a concerned citizen.

Socrates
January 1, 2007, 11:25 PM
My position is LEO and teachers should be paid the same as congressman. Would solve a LOT of problems...

S

clem
January 2, 2007, 12:26 AM
"I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did)."

The police chief is a rectum.

As a retired cop, if I was getting MY butt kicked, I'd welcome help from a girl scout!

Dennis2, if you don't want to stop and help, because of what ever reason, then don't, just keep on driving.

skeeter1
January 2, 2007, 01:40 AM
"I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did)."

The police chief is a rectum.

As a retired cop, if I was getting MY butt kicked, I'd welcome help from a girl scout!


Yes, the chief was a fool. He took a leave of absence to try another job with the USCG, and subsequently got fired from both of them. And the ex-chief should have known better -- he was a lawyer. My brother, lifetime LEO is now the Chief of Police in his commmunity, ~20 years now.

I don't carry, other than my shillelagh, but If I can help out a cop without getting in the way, you can bet I will.

T. O'Heir
January 2, 2007, 01:45 AM
I couldn't imagine not helping a flat foot in need. Wouldn't be right not to.

BillCA
January 2, 2007, 03:24 AM
I did this once 30 years ago for a California Highway Patrol officer who was rollin' around in the center median gravel with a 2-time loser. Waded into the brawl with a 4-cell "maglight" type flashlight and managed to take the fight out of the guy, then helped CHP handcuff him. Would I do it again? Probably not in the same way as I'm no longer young, limber and as quick. But I'd do something.

skeeter1
January 2, 2007, 03:38 AM
I couldn't imagine not helping a flat foot in need. Wouldn't be right not to.

Wow! "flat foot." You must be an old phart like me. I haven't heard that expression in a dog's age (another old-phartarism).

ISP2605
January 2, 2007, 07:47 AM
Just an observation since this is a firearm site and the forum is "Tactics and Training". I find it a bit strange that the internet commandos who talk about carrying this type gun and that kind of ammo and what they'll do to protect themselves from the big bad boogie man, all other miscreants, and protect the world from mall terrorists yet on a scenario when someone needs help "I'm not getting involved. It's not worth it." or "I might get hurt and then who will pay my bills." :rolleyes:

G-Cym
January 2, 2007, 08:48 AM
I can't imagine not helping. And that goes for it being a non-LEO as well. As a human, and a Christian, I value the lives of innocents more than my own finances or freedom. Even if a time-traveler came back and told be I would get sued and would lose, I would still help. I cannot sit by and watch someone being harmed and even die because I am thinking of myself.

Nanuk
January 2, 2007, 09:41 AM
As has been stated, there are officers who owe their lives to citizens who helped. Police Officers are not supermen, some are better fighters than others just like everyone else. A fight on the side of the road is life or death. I would welcome any help if I was fighting a BG.

I once fought a guy I was trying to arrest for 10 minutes before help got there, I was scared to death. I was able to get one cuff on, held onto the chain in a death grip. When it was over he had several broken ribs, a broken humoris, broken collarbone, and several bruises. It turned out he was on heroin and PCP. Any help would have been welcomed, but we were rolling around in an alley. That was 1988 and I still remember it as if it was yesterday.

The important thing to remember is to announce yourself load and clear to the officer.

DesertShooter
January 2, 2007, 10:35 AM
No question about it, a citizen SHOULD go to the aid of a police officer, BUT....

If you have a cell phone, CALL the police! While you're on the line, tell them that the officer MAY need your help, and give the dispatcher a quick description of what YOU look like!

Do you carry tear gas or pepper spray? They would come in handy, even if the officer gets sprayed! As long as the knock-down/drag-out fight comes to an end, and the officer isn't severely injured (just "snotty" from the pepper spray), you MAY have saved his/her life WITHOUT having to wade into the fray!

Give a quick survey of the surroundings. Are there other people that, like you, might not want to wade into the fight by themselves? You might yell to them, and get them to join together to save the day for the officer.

For you folks that CCW, a quick assessment of the fight MIGHT cause you to believe that a SAFELY FIRED "warning shot" might be necessary! A "warning shot" should be your LAST resort, however! AND, please use your brain! Holster your firearm BEFORE other officers arrive, so as not to attract attention to YOU! (A "safe" warning shot would be to find a grassy or soft dirt area nearby....not in the air or onto concrete!)

Several years ago, a Torrance P.D. (So Cal) officer was involved in the fight of his life with a psycho that was HUGE. The psycho was able to get the officer's 1911 pistol out of the holster and aimed it at the officer. He also pulled the trigger several times, but didn't know how to disengage the thumb release (the pistol was cocked and locked). A group of men jumped the psycho, wrestled him to the ground, disarmed him, and assisted the officer in getting him handcuffed. Those men didn't know each other, but when one of them loudly announced, "We've got to jump that guy!", they all ran to help. They psycho got "roughed-up", but....so what? All of those men who assisted the officer were given written commendations and honorable plaques for what they did.

Remember the Austin, Texas sniper? An armed citizen aided an Austin police officer. They stormed the school clock tower together and put an end to the killing (11 students died....it would have been more if that citizen hadn't aided the lone police officer!)

Pointer
January 2, 2007, 11:23 AM
it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.
If it was a pretty young lady getting raped, or beaten, you wouldn't have taken this position or even thunk it... :rolleyes:

I would prefer you come in and offer assistance, and if I am able to answer...
I will let you know...

This approach will also protect you from being thought to be a suspect...

As a citizen it is your responsibility to assist as needed...

Thanks for stopping... you are a good citizen...

NCHornet
January 2, 2007, 01:36 PM
I can't imagine not helping. And that goes for it being a non-LEO as well. As a human, and a Christian, I value the lives of innocents more than my own finances or freedom. Even if a time-traveler came back and told be I would get sued and would lose, I would still help. I cannot sit by and watch someone being harmed and even die because I am thinking of myself.

I agree 100% as well as what Pointer said above.
If he wasn't a LEO and it was a woman getting raped would you step in and help? If not, you are of no benefit to society, sorry just the way I feel. I had a situation where a buddy of mine rolled up on a female deputy wrestling with a 300 lb 6"4" black guy on PCP. This is when I lived in CA. turns out the female was waiting for BU when this guy went nuts and attacked her, she had already dumped her PS into this guy's face and when we approached she was on the guys back off the ground trying a choke hold. This guy was walking around the yard with her on his back as if she wasn't even there. One more reason why I feel most females should not be on patrol by themselves. Anyway this lady was screaming for help, there was about 10 males standing around just watching, I couldn't believe it. My buddy and I jumped out of my truck and took a tire iron to the guys Knees, he finally came to the ground and we were able to get him handcuffed with the help of some other men that decided to help, it took two pairs of cuffs with a nylon zip tie cuff in between, this guy was huge. When Back up arrived they drew down on us that were helping until the officer explained the situation, this was perfectly understandable. They took our names and we received many, many thank you's for what we had done. I was a lot younger than, and CA was a no carry state and still is, would I do it again, you bet, but this time I have a sidearm if the situation required it. A LEO in a fight for life is no different than anybody else being attacked by a BG, I am going to help all I can.

Maximus856
January 2, 2007, 03:22 PM
Take away the badge and the cop is just another guy who would need help. No differant then I.

If a guy was beating up on a Man in uniform (Marine, Soldier etc.) you think a cop would walk by and think 'oh, he was paid and trained to kill/disarm people' and keep on walking?

Just my opinion.

-Max.

Dave P
January 2, 2007, 03:57 PM
Dennis, are we a bit prejudiced?

"what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man"

G-Cym
January 2, 2007, 06:10 PM
I notice you left out where he typed "or anything else". Nice try.

chadwimc
January 2, 2007, 06:12 PM
I had the opportunity to witness such a struggle between a cop and a drunk college student. I've known the cop for several years.The cop is in excellent physical shape with tremendous fighting skills. It was dark and raining. While he wasn't losing the confrontation, it wasn't ending either. I asked "Do you want me to help ya"? "Yeah! Grab a hold of him!" The student almost lifted both of us twice. The pepper spray just ****** him off. I don't know how my knuckles got scraped up...

It all happens in a flash. I couldn't be a cop for the simple reason that when the drunk was in custody, I wouldn't have been finished. A dark, rainy night, hidden between buildings? He woulda fell down several times.

WIN71
January 2, 2007, 07:21 PM
It wasn't BillCA that saved my bacon but it was a couple loggers on the Redwood Coast that did. And I was real glad to see them. Like Chadwimc said, it got to the point where I had to slow the loggers down a tad. They were intent on getting even. During the 5 years I worked there in the 70's I got help several times from truck drivers, loggers and volunteer firefighters. In those days almost every male was a volunteer firefighter.

As for what to do in this day and age. That has to be an individual decision based on what you know about yourself and how you see the problem in front of you. Just let the copper know you're there to help. Whether you jump in the fight or jump on the cell phone there will be one forever thankful lawdog .

Dwight55
January 2, 2007, 09:02 PM
I may be wrong, . . . but it seems to me that it was about a year ago when an older gentleman saw a big dude working over a cop down Cincinnati way. If I recollect correctly, . . . he shot the big dude a couple COM shots, . . . finally put one .45ACP between his ears, . . . ended the situation.

There are a few cops I know personally, . . . could not care less about them as they are arrogant maggots, . . . but if they needed the help, . . . I'd help out, . . . to the point that the older gentleman did down Cincy way.

Like it or not, . . . they are the only thing that stands between our present society and chaos.

May God bless,
Dwight

skeeter1
January 2, 2007, 09:04 PM
Yes, I have couple of cops living directly across the street from me.

Take away the badge and the cop is just another guy who would need help. No differant then I.


If they ever needed help, I'd do the best I could. Cops get paid, yes, but they're my neighbors and nice people. I'm hardly a bruiser, but if I could help, I certainly would.

Mannlicher
January 3, 2007, 02:10 PM
my response would be to call 911, and report it as I drove by. I am not going to stop and get involved helping a cop. You are more likely to wind up being shot as anything else. I hope the 911 response time is better for the cop than it is for the average joe.

G-Cym
January 3, 2007, 06:29 PM
my response would be to call 911, and report it as I drove by. I am not going to stop and get involved helping a cop. You are more likely to wind up being shot as anything else. I hope the 911 response time is better for the cop than it is for the average joe.


WOW




-1

NCHornet
January 3, 2007, 07:16 PM
my response would be to call 911, and report it as I drove by. I am not going to stop and get involved helping a cop. You are more likely to wind up being shot as anything else. I hope the 911 response time is better for the cop than it is for the average joe.
__________________


I just don't understand comments like these, glad you're in FL. and not N.C.
I am not a brawler anymore, and I have a lot of physical problems, but I'll be darn if I could live with myself not helping somebody who needed my help. I guess we truly are in the "ME, ME" soceity. Sad, truly sad!!

DonR101395
January 3, 2007, 07:20 PM
my response would be to call 911, and report it as I drove by. I am not going to stop and get involved helping a cop. You are more likely to wind up being shot as anything else. I hope the 911 response time is better for the cop than it is for the average joe.

:barf:
Glad to see there is some humanity left in the world:rolleyes:

Dennis2
January 3, 2007, 07:20 PM
Chances are it will never happen again, I hope. I did not have a cell phone and normally do not carry one, at the time. At the time CCW was a crime in Missouri, and I did not have a CW. Under circumstaces as mentioned, even if I did have a CW, I most certainly would not have even thought about pulling it out, period. With age comes wisdom and "personal protection"! With greater age comes a long time to heal... Then comes the personal law suits and family bankrupcy. Read the papers!

NCHornet
January 3, 2007, 07:21 PM
Here's a video from a seperate post where a bystander may have saved the cops life. Glad he wasn't afraid to help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqT2jQhMZo

John28226
January 3, 2007, 08:23 PM
Not sure what you mean, Dennis. Its been over 20 years since I wore a blue uniform but even at my age I could not/ would not ignore a police officer needing help. They are not supermen, just ordinary guys with a greater need to do some good. They are not in it for the money and they are probably not seeking your thanks, but when they need help then they need help!

If any of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we need help, I sincerely hope that someone who is old enough to still get a tear in their eye when they hear "Taps" is nearby; someone whose favorite movie is "The Magnificent Seven"; someone who is not as worried about lawsuits as they are about the image they see in the mirror every morning.

Kevin, I agree with your comments. Mt. Airy is a nice little town - home to Pike Electric. I used to do a lot of work in Elkin when I was doing security consulting - lots of first class people.

John
Charlotte, NC

G-Cym
January 3, 2007, 08:26 PM
I have never seen the Magnificent Seven. Does that mean I'm not old enough to help?

WIN71
January 3, 2007, 08:37 PM
I hope the 911 response time is better for the cop than it is for the average joe

I don't know if it will be any faster, but if it's any kind of metropolitan area chances are they'll more than one coming from more than one direction. Not entirely because its an "Officer needs help" call. As a general rule individuals willing to take on a uniformed officer won't hesitate to mess up a citizen if the situation occurs. They are usually worse than the ordinary bad guy.

Like I posted earlier, at least you dropped a dime. That’s more than some would do.

VUPDblue
January 3, 2007, 10:01 PM
You should all take a look at the video in this thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233276).

John28226
January 4, 2007, 07:59 AM
The fact that you ask that question means you are most likely too young. See the movie when you grow up. You will find it entertaining.

John
Charlotte, NC

buzz_knox
January 4, 2007, 08:31 AM
Just an observation since this is a firearm site and the forum is "Tactics and Training". I find it a bit strange that the internet commandos who talk about carrying this type gun and that kind of ammo and what they'll do to protect themselves from the big bad boogie man, all other miscreants, and protect the world from mall terrorists yet on a scenario when someone needs help "I'm not getting involved. It's not worth it." or "I might get hurt and then who will pay my bills."

Maybe they just took the advice stated over and over by police that we are not cops, we aren't trained to deal with criminals, and shouldn't dream of "taking the law into our own hands" to heart. I mean, those "internet commandos" are being told to just be good witnesses when they see a crime and don't engage in "rambo" fantasies or bloodlust.

ISP2605
January 4, 2007, 10:23 AM
Maybe they just took the advice stated over and over by police that we are not cops, we aren't trained to deal with criminals, and shouldn't dream of "taking the law into our own hands" to heart. I mean, those "internet commandos" are being told to just be good witnesses when they see a crime and don't engage in "rambo" fantasies or bloodlust.
Most likely we're finding out the real "sheep" and the real "sheepdogs".
Any cop who has handled very many incidents where someone was the victim of a face to face crime has seen them. There are those who talk the big story how, if they see the BG again, they're going to kick his behind. So if they are, why didn't they do it when they were confronted by the BG? Or the guy who has a history of talking the big story, yet when they've been into it with a BG they're crying like a baby as they tell you their story. They all like to think they're tough but it's not until they face the real thing does the reality set in. It's then that you see those who are walking the walk or those who are just full of it.

APD Mark H
January 4, 2007, 10:56 AM
I've been on the other end of this one. I had two armed robbers at gunpoint in a dark alley at midnight with a failed portable radio.

When I yelled at some passing citizens for help.... they laughed at me.

Prophet
January 4, 2007, 02:25 PM
If you are a If you have a Concealed Handgun License could you get out of your car and pull your weapon and advise the BG to get off the officer of you will fire(I know you never would with the chance of hitting the officer) But would you get into trouble for that?

45RackerTracker
January 4, 2007, 02:49 PM
We were told in CCW class not to get involved in any incidents that did not directly affect us or our loved ones with direct and eminent danger to life or limb. We were told not to be vigilantes. How is pulling your piece and pointing it in the perps and officer's direction and threatening to use it going to help?. You know that this is not a movie and you may very well kill or injure the policeman if you do use your weapon. The courts have ruled that the police are not sworn to protect individuals and we all know that this is true. Why must we be compelled to put ourselves in the noose for the police? It is just one vicious cycle of apathy, I guess. I would call 911 and my civic duty would be fulfilled.

ISP2605
January 4, 2007, 02:49 PM
There is no clear cut answer. Every situation is different. It all depends on what you see when you get to a situation. What are they doing? Anyone going for a weapon? Any weapons displayed? It's why LE isn't as easy as some of those who have never worn the uniform like to imagine. You have to assess every situation individually and determine the threat at the time - and do all the assessing within a second or 2 before you act.

BillCA
January 4, 2007, 10:21 PM
Actually, I think there is a clear cut answer.

Do something

That could be dialing 9-1-1 on your cell phone. Or stopping at the first phone and calling. It could be finding someone else to call 9-1-1. If that's the limit of the risks you're willing to take (and those are pretty low risks) then at least you've summoned help if the officer could not or the dispatch was not sure of the location.

No phone? If you can get to the officer's car radio that'll usually bring the calvary very quickly. Anytime an officer is in trouble and a civilian is calling it in on the radio, everyone presumes it's a bad struggle.

If you take more direct action, remember you are attempting to stop injury to the officer. If the suspect flees, tend to the officer's welfare first and foremost if he is injured.

BreacherUp!
January 4, 2007, 10:33 PM
Someone mentioned that the poilce get paid to do this. I don't ever remember getting paid to get my skull dented in.
If you're physically able, get in the scrum. If you're not, call 911. But by God, do something!
For those that just want to drive by and do nothing, life has a sick way of coming around to bite you in the a*s.

njtrigger
January 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
You will notice that rural police officers are very kind all the time where as the urban officers are a different breed. Thats for a very good reason though.

In a rural area, the civilians are the police officer's backup.

Ct.
January 5, 2007, 03:58 AM
Anytime an officer is in trouble and a civilian is calling it in on the radio, everyone presumes it's a bad struggle.

Since when were police officers(or as some like to say peace officers) not a civilian?

police : organized civil force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, and enforcing the laws.

Civil: of citizens in their ordinary capacity, or of the ordinary life and affairs of citizens, as distinguished from military and ecclesiastical life and affairs.

G-Cym
January 5, 2007, 04:05 AM
That's one definition. One could also argue that they are an armed force employed by a government, which could make the not civilians in some capacity.

Ct.
January 5, 2007, 05:17 AM
Then that would make them a paramilitary force. which is still a civilian force.


To keep this on topic, I would stop and help as much as I could....

Tim R
January 5, 2007, 08:46 AM
Lets not get into the Us vs Them debate. I don't care if Police Officers are called Civilian's or not. The fact of the matter is Police Officers are commisioned, Joe civilian is not.

You will notice that rural police officers are very kind all the time where as the urban officers are a different breed. Thats for a very good reason though.

In a rural area, the civilians are the police officer's backup.

This is how I see it. In fact, so much so if I stop a guy and he's got a pistol permit he is more likely to recieve a verbal warning for non criminal issues, just like a GI on leave.

Capt Charlie
January 5, 2007, 01:51 PM
Lets not get into the Us vs Them debate.
Let's not. That will get this shut down.

I believe the original question was along the lines of, cop's in trouble: To help? Or not to help? And if so, in what way?

Back on track, guys... please!

cheetah44
January 5, 2007, 03:36 PM
Each person has to answer that question on his own. I can only tell you that I was an officer in trouble, oddly enough, I was being pummeled by a big black guy myself and two civilians came to may rescue and I wouldn't be here today if it hadn't been for their assistance. I'm now retired and I wouldn't hesitate to get out and help....but like I said, I've been there and I have a debt I can never repay. I guess every person has to ask whether or not he/she could live with oneself had they not helped. Just one perspective for what it's worth.

Maximus856
January 5, 2007, 03:43 PM
You guys worrying about getting your skull crushed in need to realize that once you are in the 'battle' the officer isn't gunna be like 'thanks for taking over, see ya at lunch!'

And if the officer is out of conciousness or disabled, or you yourself aren't capable of physically doing something, you can at least encourage others to help.. Its like being at a dance. No one wants to be the first to dance, but once you do, or someone gets it started, it's no big deal.

Not doing anything is like your wife not doing anything because your the man and protector of the family. If theres a struggle chances are you have enough time to evaluate the situation, and do whats neccesary. Grab a tire iron, kick the BG,rip him by the hair do SOMETHING to help the officer gain control. If 110lb girls have been able to hold off sick and twisted rapists etc. then theres no reason 2 guys cant gain control of 1 long enough for help to arrive.

-Max.

phoglund
January 5, 2007, 06:18 PM
I'm afraid I'd have to jump into the fray. It's my community that law enforcement is protecting. A cop doesn't get beaten/killed in my community if I can stop it. I'm not a disinterested bystander, I'm a member of a community. As it happens I'm also fit and know a bit about grappling and other fighting techniques. I didn't train as hard as I have because I 'm masochistic! If you can't help directly, make a call. We are all collectively responsible for the community we live in and it's moral basis. If you drive by and don't help you are contributing to the degeneration of the quality of life in your own community.

(Besides, last time I used a "Rear Naked Choke" it worked amazingly well and I wouldn't mind another shot at it. Purely for research purposes mind you!)

***Note***
The rear naked choke (often abbreviated RNC) is a chokehold in martial arts applied from an opponent's back. Depending on the context, the term may refer to one of two variations of the technique. Either arm can be used to apply the choke in both cases.

The term rear naked choke likely originated from the technique in Jiujitsu and Judo known as the "Hadaka Jime," or "Naked Strangle." The word "naked" in this context suggests that, unlike other strangulation techniques found in Jiujitsu/Judo, this hold does not require the use of a keikogi ("gi") or training uniform.
http://www.answers.com/topic/rear-naked-choke
***END NOTE***

BreacherUp!
January 5, 2007, 06:28 PM
phoglund, RNCs are damn good. But I'll think you'll agree that they shouldn't be applied if you haven't trainined to do it. Get it wrong, and you may injure the guy's trachea and kill him. For those that do not know, an RNC is meant to stop the blood to the brain by constrictring the arteries in the neck. Additionally, in many regions of the US, the RNC is pretty close to deadly force in the force continuum.

phoglund
January 5, 2007, 06:38 PM
Breacher,

I absolutely agree with you about knowing how to apply said technique. Note I didn't post details on how to apply the technique. Done incorrectly and you will end up watching somebody die because you've broken his tracheae and his throat has swollen shut. Done correctly and you have just about enough time to whisper "goodnight" to your opponent before he passes out.

Thanks for mentioning the importance of proper training with this technique. :)

Capt Charlie
January 5, 2007, 06:46 PM
Guys, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'm not familiar with the RNC, but I am with the carotid choke hold. Sounds like the same thing. Is it?

I remember LAPD started a trend among agencies a few years back banning it after a few fatalities, but I've also heard recently that it's being re-instituted here and there.

BreacherUp!
January 5, 2007, 07:02 PM
Capt, you are corect. In LE circles, they did away with the "Rear-naked choke" and coined it the "Carotid restraint," Same thing, but it makes politicians feel better.
Some agencies, like mine, still teach it. We practice DTs alot (alot of ground fighters on out team). But, as I said, on the force continuum, it rates right near DF.

ibfestus
January 5, 2007, 08:26 PM
I was working a boat show in St. Louis at the Cervantes Center. It was in Feb. IIRC. I ran out of brochures and went to my car parked at the Sheraton Hotel's parking lot across the street to get some more.

When I rounded the corner, there was a gang of about 6 black juviniles that had a elderly white person down in the Sheraton's parking lot. One of the teens had an aluminum baseball bat that he swung like Tiger Woods teeing off. Blood and brains splattered on me and my car.

I ran back to the Cervantes center and grabbed a cop that was directing traffic. He absolutley refused to help me (and the victum) until I got loud and people began to react to my passionate appeals for help.

The old white guy was dead with his brains all over the Sheraton's parking lot.

The cops produced a black "suspect" and asked me to identify him. He was about 45 years old. The oldest guy I saw involved in the killing was maybe 18 years of age.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody was ever charged in tis murder.

VUPDblue
January 5, 2007, 09:13 PM
Sorry to hear about your incident, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.

clem
January 5, 2007, 09:53 PM
This is worth it's weight in gold:



http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html

Socrates
January 6, 2007, 01:51 AM
Well, let's get this straight. In Kali, my police chief hasn't issued a CCW in 28 years. That means, to me, that in our town, LEO don't need our help, other then us calling stuff in, and letting them know about things they need to investigate.

Last time I called the police, they took 10 minutes to get there, and, with the 8 guys from East Oakland, smallest at 6'4", and 240, who had only God knows in their gym bags, they could have been cleaning up a very messy multiple homicide. We live in an area where this is totally inexcuseable. We have, as a general rule, no violent crime, and, one of the few times we are close, they are really slow..

So, what I see from this is, one, the police don't support our second amendment rights, and, two, their response time sucks, leaving us on our own, in a very bad situation.

Third, the Supreme court has found that the police have no
obligation, or, fuduciary duty to protect us. So, let me get this right. NO CCW in 28 years, basicly making us totally at the mercy of the Bad guys, unless we break the law, and, if we are attacked, no response, or obligation to protect. Just SOL...:mad:

The irony is, given the situation, I'd probably help out, simply because I don't believe in an eye for an eye, but trying to forgive idiots for their policies...

S

G-Cym
January 6, 2007, 01:57 AM
I don't believe in allowing a beat officer to be killed because of some idea of retribution towards politicians. Socrates, I understand that your politicians are corrupt and don't have your best interests at hear. And I'm glad you still follow your humanity and would help the beat officer anyways. He isn't the one make the bad decisions. He just has to follow them.

BillCA
January 6, 2007, 05:00 AM
Like Socrates, I have my fair share of complaints against the way police chiefs and sheriffs do business in CA and not necessarily all of it regarding CCW.

But that street cop wrestling with an ex-felon the size of a water buffalo or maybe fighting the drunk who has a box knife knows what it's like to have the citizens of his community on his side -- or against him. Doing something to help the officer will typically be appreciated -- especially by the officer on the ground.

I mentioned I'd stopped to help a CHP officer once. But I've also had my encounters with arrogant, obnoxious local officers too. Out of several of those, there's only one single cop I might leave to handle his own messes. And I say "might" with all seriousness. His demeanor and attitude typically provoke angry responses and he loves to intimidate and coerce people into actions to justify his "suspicions". But I don't think my own moral compass would let me walk away if his life was on the line.

45RackerTracker
January 6, 2007, 11:38 PM
That's very nobel of you, but you might be renamed Suckerates if you help an officer in distress and use an illegal concealed weapon. It just may turn out to be a two fer collar, for the helpless PO. :eek: