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Dennis2
December 23, 2006, 06:34 PM
I live and work in the St. Louis, Missouri area, the highest ranked crime area in the nation and getting worse by the day. As a matter of fact, I live and work in the "heart" of the major crime area(s), namely East St. Louis and North St. Louis, respectively. I work at a hospital in North St. Louis and drive through dangerous neighborhoods at 4:00 A.M. to work. In the previous 5 years I've had several close calls. I can not know the intentions of my experiences other than they were targeted at me and/or my car. In each instance I used "situational awareness" to drive/run away from the threat, and it was successful. The last thing I desire to do, and only do as a last resort if my life is in danger (they can have my property, it can be replaced) is pull my weapon out. If ever my weapon is removed, it WILL go BANG!

This might sound rash or uncaring, but I carry a CW for personal defense of myself and my family. I do not carry it to protect another person or business. If I witness something that appears to me to be a crime, I don't know all the details and it would behove me to stay out if it.

If you shoot someone, you can expect to get arrested (right or wrong) and get finger printed, charged and interrogated. If you're lucky the charges might be dropped or go to trial. Rest assured the low life scumbag relatives will sue you for wrongful death, and it will cost you dearly financially to defend yourself even if you win in our liberal courts.

Check this out. Where I live, if armed people break into your home, you are not allowed to defend yourself and family. You must make every effort to collect your family and "retreat" to a safe room and lock the door and call for help! That's the law.

I would suggest that situational awareness, responsibility and personal liability rule the day before the gun goes BANG....

45RackerTracker
December 23, 2006, 06:48 PM
You don't sound uncaring. FWIW I think your pretty much on the money, in your tactics and reasoning.:)

solz56
December 23, 2006, 08:05 PM
Yap. Dennis, you're right on. Laws are the same in Cali, so far as I know, regarding having to retreat (even in your own home) before using deadly force to defend yourself and family.

I live in a loft with only one door, so that does simplify home defense for me if someone enters and is armed or threatening as there's nowhere for me to retreat to. But if you live in a house with several entrances/floors/rooms, that can make for a different scenario. If I were you, I'd work out a routine for you and the family to retreat/escape and mark a point of no return where your weapon should be live as there's no other recourse.

If I apply for a CCW here, it'll be for the same mindset as you express. I'm not looking to be a vigilante, just defend my life and my families.

truthfulhawk
December 23, 2006, 09:02 PM
That is the way the laws used to be in GA...but they recently changed.

Before the law changed, if someone broke into your home, but did not directly and immediately threaten you, you could not defend yourself with lethal force.

One night while I was at work, my wife heard someone trying to break in. We live outside of a small town....(in the country). I was at work...She called me first, then called 911. I beat the cops to my house (I had to go farther) and saw a guy running across the yard. I chose to get the details of the guy and then check on my family first instead of confronting the perp.
The guy had continued to jimmy the door even when the lights came on and my wife loudly talked on the phone. If the guy had gotten inside, he KNEW he had to confront people..but did not care. My wife can shoot and had a gun nearby..but was too worried about the kids and the cops to get the gun first.

About this time the cops arrived...yeah..really.

Anyway we were warned against confronting a robber with lethal force by all but one officer..even to the point of being warned that if I shot a guy to death in my yard after all of this I would be charged.

NOW, however, the law has changed...I can legally carry a gun(subject to interpretation of Cops and judges)..but the best part is that if I feel that I am confronted with a direct threat to myself or others, I can now use deadly force to defend myself.HALLELUJAH!!!

I do not go looking for trouble, but when it comes to my house...and could kill my wife and children..or me...I will defend myself. I can even live with charges as long as my family lives.

James K
December 23, 2006, 10:38 PM
Not directed at any comment in particular, but I am not sure it is a good idea to tell the world what you will do or not do in a specific situation. The "net" is not a private discussion in your living room among friends. It is like going on Larry King Live with a megaphone. If you do end up in court, and it becomes known that you post on gun sites, your postings can be located and could be used against you.

For example, saying, "If I draw my gun, I am going to use it" or "I will kill anyone threatening my family" could be taken as irresponsible or as a predisposition to kill, and could hurt in court. They could be used to show that you were not defending yourself against an unprovoked attack but were "looking to" shoot someone.

So I advise caution in posting, even when I agree with your basic right to self-defense.

Jim

stephen426
December 23, 2006, 10:55 PM
Not directed at any comment in particular, but I am not sure it is a good idea to tell the world what you will do or not do in a specific situation. The "net" is not a private discussion in your living room among friends. It is like going on Larry King Live with a megaphone. If you do end up in court, and it becomes known that you post on gun sites, your postings can be located and could be used against you.

For example, saying, "If I draw my gun, I am going to use it" or "I will kill anyone threatening my family" could be taken as irresponsible or as a predisposition to kill, and could hurt in court. They could be used to show that you were not defending yourself against an unprovoked attack but were "looking to" shoot someone.

So I advise caution in posting, even when I agree with your basic right to self-defense.

Jim

Jim... unlike you... Most members do not use their real names on these kinds of things. How would they link you with a ficticious screen name? I guess with a name like Dennis2, we would just have to eliminate Dennis1 as a suspect and then we would know it was Dennis2. :rolleyes: Its the internet. I tend to feel that there is a heck of a lot more fiction than fact.


Dennis,

I think you are pretty much right on target as well. It sucks that your state law makers are too stupid to give you guys the right to defend your homes without retreating first. Heck, in Florida, you don't even have to retreat in public of threatened with deadly force. We have our fair share of crime in Miami, but it sure as heck did not rank #1 like St. Louis. I am glad you have a strong aversion to using force and are not one of the internet commandos just "waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone". Good luck to you and I hope things get better. If not, move to a state where they respect your right to defend yourself.

jhenry
December 23, 2006, 11:15 PM
Using a sceen name other than your own is not going to stop law enforcement from tracing your online postings and chat if probable cause exists to go after it. Such as---well---an investigation into a shooting. The internet is not anonymous.

revjen45
December 24, 2006, 12:29 PM
The law is totally incomprehensible. Here in WA State a few years back a man had the house next to his where he stored some of his goods burglarized by one of his son's friends. (This is from memory. I don't have the article in front of me. Besides, what you see in the newspaper usualy has no resemblance to what really happened.) He laid in wait with a 12 ga. for the next occurrance, which was soon. When the perp realized he was confronting an armed defender he beat a hasty retreat. The guy with the 12 ga. shot the kid in the back, killing him. Then he told the cops he shot the kid in the @ss to teach him a lesson. I would have expected the shooter to be in deep kimchee, but he wasn't charged. Of course, I don't have all the facts and there was another perp outside, so he may have made the case that he was outnumbered, and hence in fear of harm. I think I would allow a fleeing perp to go, since I wanted him to leave in the first place, and once he is on the way out proving intent to do harm is a lot harder. The shooter in this one lucked out.

BigV
December 25, 2006, 06:07 AM
Jim... unlike you... Most members do not use their real names on these kinds of things. How would they link you with a ficticious screen name? I guess with a name like Dennis2, we would just have to eliminate Dennis1 as a suspect and then we would know it wasDennis2.

stephen426 my friend, you need to become educated on computers in the real world. Everytime you visit a web site, or post on a message board you leave your computers signature there. It’s not difficult to track it back to your residence or place of business. Trust me, big brother is out there and he’s watching…

Double Naught Spy
December 25, 2006, 09:01 AM
If you shoot someone, you can expect to get arrested (right or wrong) and get finger printed, charged and interrogated. If you're lucky the charges might be dropped or go to trial. Rest assured the low life scumbag relatives will sue you for wrongful death, and it will cost you dearly financially to defend yourself even if you win in our liberal courts.

You might should expect these things, but they don't always happen. It just depends on where you are (jurisdiction), the circumstances, the evidence/witnesses, police procedure, the DA, etc. You act like the first section of getting arrested to interrogated is something unusual. You act like the possibility of going to trial is unusual. I have news for you. It is called due process and for some odd reason a lot of folks don't think they should be "treated like a criminal" and go through due process when they are innocent. Due process is part of the system that is used to determine guilt or innocence.

By the way, as for the interrogation you claim, learn and know your rights. If you have been arrested, then you don't have to allow yourself to be interrogated if you don't want such activity.

Due process may or may not cost you dearly as claimed. It all depends. However, it is better than being dead.

Here is a great example...

http://www.startribune.com/467/story/875873.html

Ex-boyfriend kicks in door, new boyfriend kills him
Erik Richter, armed with a loaded gun, broke into his ex-girlfriend's Wright County apartment after having threatened her. Samantha Simons' current boyfriend, Eric Cegon, shot him.

By Jim Adams, Star Tribune
Last update: December 14, 2006 – 10:22 PM

The crashing back door snapped Eric Cegon and his girlfriend awake in her apartment. Fear grew as they heard feet rapidly climbing the stairs to their barricaded bedroom door about 3:30 a.m. Wednesday.
Cegon, 30, grabbed the shotgun next to their bed and sat up, hoping the locked door would hold. He said he knew the intruder was the man who had threatened his life and held a knife to his girlfriend a week earlier.

The girlfriend, Samantha Simons, covered up her 2-year-old son and screamed as her ex-boyfriend kicked in the door, knocking over the small dresser lodged against it.

"I knew if that door came open what I would do," Cegon said Thursday. He fired the 12-gauge shotgun he had borrowed from a friend two weeks before to protect himself. The blast knocked Erik A. Richter, 35, to the floor.

A loaded gun fell from his hand.

"You killed me," the couple recall Richter saying.

Cegon squeezed the trigger again.

"I shot him again to make sure he didn't get up," Cegon said. "I'll never forget the smell."

Simons, 21, said that Cegon had to do it or that Richter "would have killed us all."

His deadly break-in was the second time he had violated a court order not to contact his former girlfriend, Simons, or her new boyfriend, Cegon. Richter was scheduled to appear in court Wednesday on a terroristic threats charge for repeatedly threatening to kill Cegon since Nov. 4, when he broke Cegon's vehicle's windows, court records said. Richter is the father of Simons' son.

Cegon and Simons were questioned but not arrested, said Lt. Todd Hoffman of the Wright County Sheriff's Office.

County Attorney Thomas Kelly said that a week before Richter died, he threatened Simons with a kitchen knife and said he would kill Cegon. Richter was charged with assault in that case.

State law allows a person to defend himself or others in a home if the person believes he or she faces an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death, Kelly said. He said he will decide whether any charges are warranted against Cegon after the investigation is over and an autopsy done on Richter, who did not fire his handgun.

Cegon "may very well have been justified in taking another one's life," Kelly said. He added that Richter told Simons that he "refused to let her go, and said if he couldn't have her, nobody would."

Kelly said he wasn't aware of any drugs or alcohol being involved in Wednesday's altercation. He noted that Richter, of Watertown, was sentenced to four years in prison for a methamphetamine conviction in 1998.

On Thursday, Cegon and Simons recounted the harrowing shooting as they sat in her mother's townhouse in Rockford. Simons' mother, Sarah Wickstrom, kept an eye on her 2-year-old grandson, Jackson, who had just come inside after splashing in puddles. His trucks and toys were piled nearby under a Christmas garland of blue tinsel.

The couple said they had barricaded their bedroom door at night for the last week, expecting Richter to make good on his threats to kill Cegon. Simons said Richter had showed her a sawed-off shotgun with a special grip that he planned to use.

They expected him Tuesday night because he had a court date Wednesday on the terroristic threats made while he banged on the doors and windows of Cegon's parents' home in Rockford, where the couple were staying on Nov. 4.

The county attorney said Richter had posted $10,000 bail on the threats charge and apparently violated a condition of his release by threatening Simons with a knife Dec 6. A warrant had been issued for his arrest after that incident, Kelly said.

A judge could have sent Richter to jail for that release violation, and Simons said Richter didn't want to go back.

Cegon said that he had never used a gun before but that he decided to borrow a shotgun two weeks ago from a friend who showed him how to use it. He said he had met Richter while working at a feed elevator. Cegon said it felt like Richter had been hunting him for the past month.

After the predawn shooting, Cegon sat in fear, disbelief and shock. He said it happened less than a minute after they heard the back door kicked in, ripping off the security chain. He said he shot Richter in the chest from about 5 feet. He continued to hold the gun on him while handing the phone to Simons to call 911.

"I was crying, and they said to calm down," Simons recalled of the call. "I said my ex-boyfriend broke into the house and we shot him."

Cegon put the shotgun back in its case and went to let police into the house in the 8800 block of Walnut Place.

"We didn't want any problems with him," Cegon said. "I didn't do it. He did it to himself."

He said he won't keep a gun in his home anymore.

"I never had one. I never hunted. I never wanted one," he said, as Simons held his hand. She said she has had nightmares and went to see a doctor about sleeping medicine Thursday. She said that she won't return to her apartment and that she has given notice to the landlord.

Simons said her son woke up during the shooting and asked for a bottle. She hopes he doesn't remember the night his father died.

"I covered his eyes, so he didn't see. I hope he doesn't remember any of this," she said. "It's not going to be a good Christmas."

Added Wickstrom, her mother: "I just thank God that my daughter and my grandson are still here."


Jim Adams • 612-673-7658 • jadams@startribune.com

Here, notice the shooter was NOT arrested even after admitting he shot the old boyfriend/intruder just to make sure he would not get up again. It is a stupid admission and one that sounds pretty bad, but the cops and DA didn't see it that way. If you do a search on the players' names, you will find where the DA says he thinks it was a good shoot.

blume357
December 25, 2006, 10:13 AM
most practical states said you did not have to retreat not only in your home but on your own property. The problem comes in with use of deadly force, you have to show that you were in fear of your life or in danger of being badly hurt or the same for someone else who is with you. In S.C. not only is your place of business considered 'your home' but also a public rest room.

The real change recently in the law is not so much no need to retreat, even in public. But that if you are not prosecuted or found guilty then you can not be sued in civil court either.

revjen45
December 25, 2006, 01:37 PM
I would far prefer to leave than to use deadly force against someone in public, but with arthritis in my spine and knees and both big toes fused trying to run would simply invite the assailant to shoot or stab me in the back. I couldn't outrun a drunk on pogo stick, but I am a competent shot with a handgun and I will not allow anyone to do me harm. In my home I will not flee naked into the night so that sociopaths may sack my domicile and assault my wife in peace. Shooting anybody is not high on my list of things I want to do and I don't go looking for trouble, but I will defend my person, home, and loved ones with all the skill and vigor I can muster.

Abstract
December 25, 2006, 06:09 PM
Sometimes, the price is very high that one must pay for living in a state run by Democrats .

Baphomet
December 25, 2006, 07:19 PM
stephen426 my friend, you need to become educated on computers in the real world. Everytime you visit a web site, or post on a message board you leave your computers signature there. It’s not difficult to track it back to your residence or place of business. Trust me, big brother is out there and he’s watching…
Just to add a teeny tiny bit of my years of professional IT experience here; what you refer to as your "computers signature" is whats properly called your Internet Protocol (IP) Address. IP Addresses are just as "trackable" as any paper-trail. Furthermore, while I don't know what the likelihood of any particular prosecuting attorney using any particular individuals post's in a criminal trial would be, I just thought I'd chime in and say that it's infinitely POSSIBLE to do so. Your computer could (I suppose) be seized as evidence, your internet habit's traced therefrom, even the owner of these boards could (again, I suppose) be forced to turnover any electronic "correspondence" you posted that the servers held. Insert the standard "I'm not a lawyer" caveat here, but it sure sounds feasible to me.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Joe D
December 26, 2006, 06:48 AM
Dennis2, my advise to you would be to just move. Why live in a city like that? There are far better places to live than St.Louis.
Jobs are not that hard to find. Look here www.indeed.com

elwaine
December 26, 2006, 11:41 AM
Check this out. Where I live, if armed people break into your home, you are not allowed to defend yourself and family. You must make every effort to collect your family and "retreat" to a safe room and lock the door and call for help! That's the law.
You need to move to Florida. The violent crime rate here has dropped significantly here since the CCW laws have gone into effect - and there has NOT been a rash of shootings, as predicted by the anti-gun crowd, since the law was ammended to allow one to shoot without first having to retreat when in a life threatening situation. In addition, Florida comes down on illegal gun use like a ton of bricks - unlike the states run by the anti gun crowd who are usually also anti punisment for illegal use of fireamrs! Florida is not a "wild west" state and treats legal and illegal gun use very seriously.
Before the law changed, if someone broke into your home, but did not directly and immediately threaten you, you could not defend yourself with lethal force.
I'm not sure of the legality of that issue, here in Florida, but one has to be pretty darned stupid to intentionally put himself in harms way (and then claim self defense). If one hears a BG breaking into one's home, first gather the loved ones in a predetermined "safe" room... grab your gun... grab your cell phone (which should be next to your gun) and call 911. With 911 on the line (do not hang up the phone until the cops come), shout out as loud as you can "Get the **** out of here. I am armed and I will shoot you." But do not be so stupid as to try to clear the house yourself. That's the cop's job... even if they come 1/2 hour later. You and yours should stay put!. If the BG wants to steal your stuff, but leaves you alone, let that happen. You have no idea what the BG is armed with, or if he is drugged up... or if he is actually 3 or more BGs. Owning a gun for SD should make you smarter... not dummer. It's for defense - not for playing cops and robbers.

Abstract
December 27, 2006, 09:58 AM
"dummer"!!! I love this stuff!

JJB2
December 27, 2006, 10:34 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!!



Life Is Short...........