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View Full Version : "Cruiser shotguns"... Opinions?


Mokumbear
December 19, 2006, 07:50 PM
I have been wondering about cruiser style shotguns and their
suitabilty for home defense.

I have held full size shotguns and the ones I have held at the gun store seem
way too long and heavy for me.

Now, for example, I was looking at this one, or one very similar to it at my
local gun shop this weekend:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_336/products_id/46368

I also see that there is a 6 shot model with a 18" barrel and an 8 shot model with a 20" barrel?
I would be curious of the pro's/cons of which one would be best for me.

Anyone have any real world experience with this type of shotgun
in 12ga and have some tips to share?

I tend to overload my posts with questions, but please bear with me.
What is the proper firing technique with one of these?
Do you want it resting against your hip or pelvis or just hold it low and hang on?

For a 1st timer, would the recoil be less "punishing" because its not whacking you in
the shoulder, like a traditional shotgun?

This would be my 1st shotgun and I need all the advice I can get! :rolleyes:

Thanks...

Glockamolie
December 19, 2006, 08:43 PM
Stockless pistol-grip shotguns hurt. I don't think anyone would recommend firing from the hip. You'd put it up just as though it had a stock, in the same position. Your hand and wrist will take some punishment. IF I decided that I needed one, I'd probably go with a 20ga to make it somewhat bearable. There's no way around the fact that long guns are heavy (some more than others), but if you learn some proper technique, they're not so bad. I bet you'll get almost no recommendations to go with the "Cruiser" style, though.

cloudcroft
December 19, 2006, 08:49 PM
You're right, I'm the only person who WOULD recommend them, for some situations.


As for the OP, research here and look for old posts on this same question.

Do the same over at The High Road forums.

-- John D.

Mokumbear
December 19, 2006, 08:51 PM
Well, that is why I am here, to learn.

I am curious what the others have to say.

Someone must be buying them or Mossberg wouldn't make them.
I also knows my local gun shop does not carry models that don't sell.

For what it is worth, the gun shop guy, who seems fairly knowledgeable
specifically said it was to be fired from the hip.

When I raised it up to "sight it", he gave me an immediate "uh, uh".

RevolverLover
December 19, 2006, 09:05 PM
Have you fired a pistol grip only shotgun? If you haven't then I suggest you do because more than likely you will be adding the traditional stock afterwards anyways.

howeudew
December 19, 2006, 09:39 PM
Years ago, a friend of mine and I spent an interesting afternoon putting about 60 rounds of buckshot through a 12 gauge Mossberg Cruiser. I was young, stupid, and probably tougher in those days. I wouldn't do it today.
As I recall, my hand hurt for a couple of days.

That said, we managed. Even from the hip, we were shooting it pretty well at ranges out to 15 yards. What it made up for in precision, it sure gave back in speed. Given in-house ranges, I'd have to assume that I could still connect with one if I had to.

Now...since I'm well past the half-century mark (hopefully wiser) and much more decrepit, I use an 870 with a butt-stock for my HD shotgun. :p

I remember a conversation I once had with my Dad, who was an Air Policeman (Korean War era Air Force Security Police) regarding the pistol grip shotguns. His opinion? "Son, I'd never use one, even if I could hit with it. If I was in my house and a bad guy closed with me faster than I could get on target, I'd butt-stroke him. You can't do that with a pistol grip!" It made a lot of sense to me. From that point on, I went to the full butt stock.

SD_Chop
December 19, 2006, 10:33 PM
get both worlds in one stock, IE a top folder. It can act and a pistol grip no stock, unfold it then you got a pistol grip with a stock cant go wrong. I would say 18" for home defense if your using any type of buck shot. you wanna get the spread out a little and not such a tight pattern IMO. Any mossberg, benelli, or remmy would be the way to go, cant go wrong with proven classics

rugerdude
December 19, 2006, 10:54 PM
With birdshot it's actually just a whole lot of fun, and easily controlled.

Hip shooting, shoulder level, and you can even fire it one handed without too much trouble.

However, these are target loads and buckshot kicks wayyy more.

Very small, very quick, and if birdshot is your HD load, then great for that purpose. I think a combination of a cruiser shotgun and #6 shot would be a nice HD setup.

TonyM1
December 19, 2006, 11:02 PM
I have that sg in the 18.5" version with a top folder. Using the folding stock it has some substantial recoil, but in an sd situation I doubt it would be an issue. I haven't been to a range that allows hip firing yet, but judging from the shoulder recoil I don't think I want to try it with just the pistol grip, until I get the specops folder stock which should hopefully eliminate all of the recoil issues in either configuration.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOps_Folder.html

I went with the 18.5" barrel for the ease of turning in a hallway, not that another 1.5" is a huge difference.

edit: I think it's 18" not 18.5"

SD_Chop
December 19, 2006, 11:43 PM
I have hip fired many times, it does not hurt. The only time i started to feel something was with 3" magnum slugs

chris in va
December 20, 2006, 01:58 AM
My friend has that same exact model. Great gun.

However he almost immediately bought a folding recoil absorbing stock for it, which helped tremendously. If it'll be strictly for HD, go ahead. But take it to the range a few times for practice, you'll want something to make it easier on the body parts.

cloudcroft
December 20, 2006, 02:31 PM
Mokumbear:

"For what it is worth, the gun shop guy, who seems fairly knowledgeable
specifically said it was to be fired from the hip.

When I raised it up to "sight it", he gave me an immediate "uh, uh"."



He's wrong. Also he sounds ignorant...probably doesn't know anything about them; just what he's heard. Like most other people.

Do the search here and at THR for earlier posts on this topic.

Merry Christmas,

-- John D.

RevolverLover
December 20, 2006, 04:28 PM
"For what it is worth, the gun shop guy, who seems fairly knowledgeable
specifically said it was to be fired from the hip.

When I raised it up to "sight it", he gave me an immediate "uh, uh"."



He's wrong. Also he sounds ignorant...probably doesn't know anything about them; just what he's heard. Like most other people.

Do the search here and at THR for earlier posts on this topic.

Merry Christmas,

-- John D.


I have seen mostly young people try to "sight" a PGO shotgun like that and ended up with a broken nose or busted lip etc. If you plan to do alot of shooting with a shotgun I highly recommend getting one with a shoulder stock. If you must have a pistol grip then get one with a shoulder stock like the Speedfeed IV.

FirstFreedom
December 20, 2006, 05:00 PM
get both worlds in one stock, IE a top folder. It can act and a pistol grip no stock, unfold it then you got a pistol grip with a stock cant go wrong.

Yep, or for that matter, a side-folding buttstock gives you 2 versions in one.

rugerdude
December 20, 2006, 06:37 PM
I can't remember what show it was, but it was about guns and how the Norwegian (or something like that) Special forces used them. Anyway, one of the operatives had a pump-action (maybe a Rem. or mossy) with a top-folding stock, and it was folded as they practiced room clearing drills.

He had it raised to shoulder level and out a fair distance from his body. The way he was holding looked exactly like he had a stock on it, but it actuality it was folded.

If it's good enough for them........

I've actually found this to be the most effective way to shoot it in my own experience.

cloudcroft
December 20, 2006, 08:29 PM
RevolverLover,

They weren't wrong holding it UP like that, they just didn't grasp how to SHOOT like that!

It's NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER shooting it, AIMING it like you would any other shotgun! No broken noses or any other BS will happen. Unless you do it WRONG.

Like I told Mokumbear, look for the older threads here and at THR for god's sake.

Merry Christmas,

-- John D.

cloudcroft
December 20, 2006, 08:32 PM
rugerdude,

Give the man (you) a cigar...you're right on.

Except that *I* personally use TWO pistol grips for MY shorty, no folding stock.

My god, why all the confusion about something so VERY simple.

Merry Christmas,

-- John D.

Mokumbear
December 20, 2006, 09:36 PM
That's what I am trying to avoid, "doing it wrong", whether it's the
wrong gun, the wrong ammo, the wrong firing stance, the wrong gun care, etc.

I have been looking at the old posts and everything else I can find on the web.

You have to understand, for someone who is proficient with a semiauto
pistol, the shotgun is a new skill set. I want to do it right.

You can't fault me for erring on the side of caution and doing my homework.

Also, I have been looking at the Mossberg owners manual online and, for me,
it is not the clearest technical writing I have come across.

I think dangerous "power tools" deserve respect and the knowledge to use them safely and
effectively.

Diggers
December 21, 2006, 04:21 AM
You said the shotguns you tried felt too big for you.

Have you tried a smaller youth model out? That might fit you well. Mossberg makes them.

I the regular version will be much easier to aim and hit with.

Daves-got-guns
December 21, 2006, 08:21 AM
the only people i know that use cruisers are gangster-types or somebody who truely needs a cut down gun. I cant reccomend them because they dont look comfortable and i can cycle alot faster from the shoulder then i probably could with a cruiser at the hip. Also even though the shotgun is a point to shoot gun, it just feels aqward with a pistol grip, and no stock. Mossberg bantom 500 youth is a good gun, and you can buy a full sized stock for it and keep the riot barrel on there.

mustangdan1963
December 21, 2006, 08:38 AM
It all comes down to personal preference. I have a cruiser in a .410, but have shot several in 12 gauge. They have their place, I mostly use mine when space is a premium, such as camping or hiking. I wouldn't have a problem using one for home defense, but my choice would be a standard shotty. Bottom line find one to test fire, and buy what you like.

cloudcroft
December 21, 2006, 08:18 PM
Daves-got-guns,

"...cant reccomend them because they dont look comfortable"


Then TRY one first and find out. How it LOOKS doesn't tell you a whole lot re: how it actually SHOOTS, does it.

-- John D.

TonyM1
December 21, 2006, 08:24 PM
Seems ironic to advocate firearms training for concealed permit applicants, yet give out advice on something you have no experience with:rolleyes:

Gewehr98
December 21, 2006, 10:48 PM
But after you're done perusing his posts at TFL and THR, go ahead and read what Mr. Dave McCracken has to say about the same subject. He's got a long-standing challenge to anybody who thinks they can outshoot his full-stock shotgun with their PG-only version. Cloudcroft has conspicuously not taken Dave up on that offer.

Myself, I went with the full-stock on my 20" USMC 870Mk1 variant for a house gun. Why make it hard on myself when I want to put the front blade on target and keep it there when the 00 buck heads out the muzzle? :(

cloudcroft
December 22, 2006, 01:37 AM
Gewehr98,

Sure, Dave disagrees with me big time. So what? I told Dave that I don't compete with anyone about anything. No one taking his challenge doesn't "prove" he's right. How can it? I don't have time for boys' games. Besides, I'm retired.

Like I won't compete with you and your lack of grasping simple concepts. Are you still in high school or something? I don't do that "challenge" crap, which includes shooting against a damn clock. That's unreal. WTH does that prove in a real shooting situation? But I sure will use my shorty in a combat/shooting situation in certain applications where the shorty is best for the job.

But people can carry/buy/use whatever kind of shotgun they want...so what? I never told anyone NOT to get a full-stocked shotgun, that they were crap, that shortys were superior to shoulder-stocked shotguns or any other such BS as you imply.

All I am doing is standing up for the shorty.

I do the very same thing for much-maligned small-caliber guns...look up THOSE posts, too...and also those over at THR. I get slammed for being a "mousegun" fan.

So what?

Neither of my stands is popular but I couldn't care less. I just state MY opinion, others make the decision for themselves. Otherwise, we'd just hear from ignorant people like you.

And I practice what I preach by carrying/using the very same guns I stand for in assorted gun forums...MY life is on the line with them and I'm quite confident using them.

Remember, any dead fish can float downstream, but it takes a live one to swim upstream. Try swimming upstream for a change or at the very least learn to speak for yourself and not simply be an airhead parrot.

Now, do YOU have any original thoughts on this subject or are you used-up about now, or, are you just out to destroy someone's valid use of a certain type of shotgun?

BTW, I sometimes carried a "shorty" M79 (40mm shotshells) on occasion (and at other times the M60, 1911, and M16) while on patrol in the RVN (although I was in armored recon, I did a hell-of-a-lot of foot patrols, got my CIB that way. No, I am not authorized to wear it because I was 11Delta, not 11Bravo, but I have my CIB award from my unit's CO anyway to prove it, so I'll wear it anyway). Sometimes, it couldn't be shouldered fast enough to use it suddenly and, in essence, it was fired somewhat away from my body in the haste to get that all-important first shot off. Later on, it occurred to me that a shorty 12-gauge (the Ithaca 37s also in service at the time for point men were shoulder-stocked, but I wasn't issued one) would be even better for close-up and fast firing in dense elephant grass and other assorted brush, when someone could be standing a few feet away and you'd never know it.

But maybe it's just ME...maybe I'm the only one (I sure doubt it) who can shoot some guns most people say you can't, or are "innacurate," like TINY handguns and, apparently, shorty shotguns.

So what? Why is that such a problem for you?

I also stated in other posts here and in other gun forums that I have a 590A1 full-stocked shotgun for OTHER purposes, so I am NOT against shoulder stocks. Where did I ever say I was?

I am just making a case for the shorty and am tired of ignorant people such as yourself slamming them. You probably never owned one or shot one, so *** do YOU know? I'd say jack. How many patrols did YOU go on in a combat zone? Sounds like none. So *** would I have any respect for what YOU say? I don't. I'm just stating all this here for the record so OTHER people can get both sides of the story...they can do whatever THEY want after hearing both sides.

But you DO sound like some ignorant kid. If you're not a kid but some old geezer, you've wasted your life not learning much at least about short shotguns anyway. And probably -- like many other "gun-owners" (the term used very loosely as per usual) -- small "inadequate" handguns/calibers.

Wise up. It'll soon be spawning season for you upstream.


Merry Christmas anyway,

-- John D.

P.S. I'm done with this thread. Say whatever you want and it will be uncontested...

liliysdad
December 22, 2006, 01:46 AM
I have shot several, never owned one. The reason I have never owned one is that they are all but useless. They have a very limited realm of use, such as a breaching gun, or hiking/backpacking use. Other than that, there is absolutely nothing they do that a conventional shotgun doesnt do better.

Rich636
December 22, 2006, 02:18 AM
I could see the benefit of turning a hallway corner with a pistol gripped shotgun against your side....it would seem that the muzzle wouldn't lead as far as ahead of you (giving them something to grab). Then again I've never even handled a PG shottie, just trying to imagine it in my head. I still like having a handgun in close to my body for moving around the house, despite it not being as powerful.

edited for spelling

dixierifleman
December 22, 2006, 03:40 AM
i have a Mossberg 500 Persuader with the pistol grip and 20" barrel and 8 round tube. its real fun to shoot and i keep it within arms range of my bed. i keep it loaded with 2 target load #6 shot, 2 buckshot, 2 slugs, and 2 3" magnum steel shot. i figure most anyone will go down with the target load. ive shot over 50 buckshot and slugs through it in a day and its tolerable

Gewehr98
December 22, 2006, 01:00 PM
So you've managed to become the Mall Ninja Extraordinaire of all things shotgun by holding one at eye level with just a pistol grip on the receiver and one more on the slide, roughly the same position one would have the shotgun were the buttstock still there, except you've managed to relocate recoil to the wrists and elbows vs. the shoulder, and made for a less steady platform. This is an improvement how?

Likewise, just how much practice does the average shotgun buyer need to do this Ninja-esque hold, vs. simply using a standard buttstock to maintain eye/sight alignment and absorb recoil in something other than their wrists and elbows? Is it something they're going to be proficient with immediately after perusing a gun forum and listening to a guy tell them to buy a PG-only shotgun? Unless they're proficient, they're a liability, and that could end up making them dead.

I can play my Stratocaster behind my back, but it doesn't mean I'm going to tell everybody they need to do so or that it's preferable to the standard way of playing.

BTW, since you seem to be pushing for some sort of superiority, you are correct, I am indeed an ignorant kid, having just retired from a military career with plenty of combat medals in my own shadow box. Been there, done that, got the VA disability rating to boot. It's amazing who one just might bump into on a gun forum, isn't it? So do be careful, and watch the personal attacks and threats, they're not conducive to longevity on a privately-owned website. See you downstream. :D

revjen45
December 22, 2006, 07:33 PM
Clyde Barrow might be considered an expert on the use of the compact shotgun in close-up interpersonal dispute type situation, and he didn't use a PGO or give a rat's rectum about legal barrel length or l.o.a. His "whippit" (as in whip it out) A5 had a buttstock cut off as short as the mechanism would allow. He could have used a pump gun cut down to PGO with a bbl cut off even with a 5 shot mag, but he kept a useable (if short) stock. A 12 ga 3" mag has about the same recoil energy as a .375 mag. Would you want to shoot a .375 H&H with a pistol grip?

Daves-got-guns
December 25, 2006, 10:14 AM
more b/s personal attacks on peoples charactor.... i dont carry concealed carry, and im glad tony that you follow me around like a lost puppy dog, it gives me a fullfilled feeling of satisfaction that "haters" want to chop up w/e i say. I read alot on firearms, and i am no damn expert by any means, i dont claim to be. I do however tryto be insightfull and not hurt anybody elses cause, but your ******* me off. Ok tony, lets pretend your a expert. Go get your pistol grip pump, and come to my town, step to my door and ill step to that same door with my shoulder mounted mossberg 835. We can see just how well your pistol grip gun holds its merrits against a shoulder mounted shotgun. If you dont like what i say then why the hell can't you ignore it? You think im a liberal or something, or do you just got a hardon for me? and i know its not gonna be comfortable, or even worth trying to buy a pistol gripped shotgun, every idiot i see with a pistol grip shotgun thinx they're really hot ****, but most are idiots.

TonyM1
December 25, 2006, 01:32 PM
more b/s personal attacks on peoples charactor.... i dont carry concealed carry, and im glad tony that you follow me around like a lost puppy dog, it gives me a fullfilled feeling of satisfaction that "haters" want to chop up w/e i say. I read alot on firearms, and i am no damn expert by any means, i dont claim to be. I do however tryto be insightfull and not hurt anybody elses cause, but your ******* me off. Ok tony, lets pretend your a expert. Go get your pistol grip pump, and come to my town, step to my door and ill step to that same door with my shoulder mounted mossberg 835. We can see just how well your pistol grip gun holds its merrits against a shoulder mounted shotgun. If you dont like what i say then why the hell can't you ignore it? You think im a liberal or something, or do you just got a hardon for me? and i know its not gonna be comfortable, or even worth trying to buy a pistol gripped shotgun, every idiot i see with a pistol grip shotgun thinx they're really hot ****, but most are idiots

I most certainly hope you are not talking to me. But I have a feeling that you are since I didn't see any other Tony's in this thread. Even though it is now 4 days after the fact.

First off, if you have no experience with a pistol grip shotgun, why in the hell are you offering an opinion on one? I can read about being an astronaut, should I then be qualified to offer advice to a pilot who is thinking of applying to NASA to become an astronaut?

Secondly and most importantly....are you challenging me to a gun fight? The level of your intelligence is really shown in that statement. I regard that as a blatant threat.

Third, and not so important...more irony of a person that can't spell calling someone else an idiot.

Almost forgot; who's following who? I was in this thread before you and your "advice"

liliysdad
December 25, 2006, 02:00 PM
more irony of a person that can't spell calling soemone else an idiot

Yes, irony is fun, isnt it?



By the way, I still strongly advise that pistol grips shotguns are south of useless.

dixierifleman
December 25, 2006, 02:11 PM
i have a pistol grip shotgun that i shoot pretty regularly. that doesnt make me a damn idiot or make me think im hot ****. its a fun gun to have and easier to conceal than a full sized, looks damn cool, and a hell of alot more powerful than any pistol. its about as useful as a S&W 500 or Desert Eagle .50. got somethin bad to say about me? lets hear it

revjen45
December 25, 2006, 02:20 PM
De gustibus non desputandum. (There is no disputing taste.) If someone likes a pistol grip 12 ga more power to 'em. I'll keep the stock on mine. I also like 211 Steel Reserve, which evoked a puking smiley on another forum. If we all liked the same thing there wouldn't be enough to go around.

dixierifleman
December 25, 2006, 03:33 PM
211s are my favorite. cant beat the 8.1% alchy in a tall boy. i like my shotguns with stocks too. but i have a pistol grip and its just as fun to shoot.

TonyM1
December 25, 2006, 04:06 PM
Yes, irony is fun, isnt it?

Touche, although a spelling mistake by virtue of overzealous typing is not quite the same as multiple cases of simply not knowing how to spell and calling others idiots.


The guys that tested the folding pistol grip stock that I first mentioned in the thread are probably idiots trying to be cool too:rolleyes: , but at least they did try shooting with it before giving any recommendation.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Company/TestReport.htm

.351winchester
December 25, 2006, 11:47 PM
Revjen-"Clyde Barrow might be considered an expert on the use of the compact shotgun in close-up interpersonal dispute type situation, and he didn't use a PGO or give a rat's rectum about legal barrel length or l.o.a. His "whippit" (as in whip it out) A5 had a buttstock cut off as short as the mechanism would allow. He could have used a pump gun cut down to PGO with a bbl cut off even with a 5 shot mag, but he kept a useable (if short) stock. A 12 ga 3" mag has about the same recoil energy as a .375 mag. Would you want to shoot a .375 H&H with a pistol grip?"
Very true about his auto (Model 11 and A5) Whipits. He did however have at least one PGO, I believe a Remington 17, Buck had a Winchester 16 ga. I had been researching and writing an article on guns of the motor bandits, but when my computer died last month lost everything (can't find my written notes) and have to start from scratch. Anyhow, B&C resources have a lot of varying accounts when it comes to weapon related details, but I did come across an article years ago I have since been unable to locate (perhaps it was on Oklahombres site). This pistol grip pump, Clyde was able to swing his hip and it would jump into his waiting hand. Another source indicated a zippered compartment on his trousers for a shotgun. This would be the most likely candidate.
Of course, both he and Bonnie's prefered street cannons were the autos with a portion of stock remaining, rubber from an inner tube tacked down forming a loop to slip over the shoulder, under a coat. The weapon was already shouldered. Some reported that this was merely for retention purposes and he would tug the strap loose, but I think he had enough savvy to realize keeping it shouldered was not only faster for the first shot, but far more controllable, quick and accurate. I mean he and an accomplice put 10 slugs into the head and neck of one lawman in Joplin. That's not hipshooting.

Anyway I think his Whipits would make excellent PDW's even today. Maybe better than the Witness Protection 12 ga. 870's with 12.5" barrels and hogleg grips, carried barrel up under strong arm. Instead of simply raising like a whipit, left hand grabs forearm, unsnaps and pulls outward, while the right unsnaps the grip strap. No way in hell I for one would keep a round chambered in such a carry position, so add to that time to rack the slide. I have to admit the Marshal's W.P. shotgun rigs are well designed and extremely concealable, but for me would just as soon have Clyde's configuration. (Off topic, but I always though chopping an auto on either end was disasterous to reliability, whether recoil or gas operated. But would bet my bottom dollar Barrow's ran flawlessly or he would not have used them). Lastly if he were around today, I think he'd favor the Saiga folder, 12 or 20, cut short as the entry model. Actually instead of acquiring the PG and FS parts (though installation would present no problem to him) he'd probably just remove 1/2-2/3 of the standard stock and make a whipit of it.
Clyde is more well known for his Scatterguns (what HE called his sawed off BARs) than what we call scatterguns. But the shotguns really were his bread and butter, they used 20s, 16s, 12s, even a 10ga. Win. Lever action riot gun. Great point you made about Clyde's whipit's, because in fact it's the first thing I think of when talking about PG Pumps.

.351winchester
December 26, 2006, 12:14 AM
Mokumbear I really think you'd be a lot better off having a stock. I have used PG's and double PG's but always went back to traditional stocks. Some people may be proficient with this configuration, but I can't believe anyone would be better without a stock than with it. I do not understand where the savings in length comes into play other than in storage and concealment. There are stances and positions to use with a riot gun that make it no easier to disarm than a handgun and move anywhere yet bring it to target instantly.
Just telling you my experiences. I never found it painful or extremely innacurate to have pistol grips, but it was too slow in every way, way too slow to be counted on for self defense. For me.

Daves-got-guns
December 26, 2006, 06:09 AM
tony, i like how you can blast on everything i say, and suddenly everything you say is golden. No its no challenge, cause getting into a gunfight with some idiot online whos probably a 17 year old kid and thinx hes got all the answers to life, aint worth it. Screw this thread, and ill let you think you are king with your pistol grip pump.

TonyM1
December 26, 2006, 08:36 AM
Well let's see dave, you invite me to come to 'your' town and 'step to your door' with my pg sg vs your standard stock sg and see how well mine holds it's merits against yours? Sure sounds like a call out and a threat to me, and by your own reasoning that would make you an idiot.

Let's look at your profile:

Biography:
I am a borderline redneck from Wa. I am going to alaska soon for work.
Location:
Marysville Washington
Interests:
shooting, hunting messing around.
Occupation:
none at the mome, soon to be a fish cannery worker.

Hmm, I think the 17 year old kid who thinx (sic) he's got all of the answers to life would fit that bio pretty well. Or perhaps you are much older and just living at home with mommy trying to look cool on gun forums with your super cool name 'daves got guns'....really, how many? Obviously a pg sg isn't one of them huh?

Try taking your own advice, if you don't like what I have to say, then just ignore it instead of publicly challenging me to an armed confrontation at your front door...stupid, stupid, stupid...run Forrest, run.

OBIWAN
December 26, 2006, 11:27 AM
Wow...won't be long before this one gets locked:)

I am on record as not being a big fan of the shotgun for defensive use...I think there are better options today

that being said....

I can't see any advantage to a pistol grip other than shortening the overall length for transport(and looking cool)

For the first I would suggest a folding stock of some kind...for the second...well.......never mind;)

Many years ago I did some informal experimentation with a moss500

Nobody liked shooting it with the PG and using the sites

Firing it from the hip had some serious CDI factor, but there was a marked tendency to shoot high...we found "aiming" at the bad guys feet to work ok

Most all shotguns have too long a stock for serious defensive use

But removing it entirely just causes new problems

I put a youth stock on my 590 and it is just about perfect...except that it is still a shotgun:D

mustangdan1963
December 27, 2006, 10:03 AM
ok, can't leave this one alone...ealier on this thread, I stated that I had a PG shotty in .410, and that I believe they have their place. I also stated that I prefer to shoot full stock shotguns whenever possible. That being said. I bought the PG shotgun close to 20 years ago, and have used it regularily ever since. I have used a wheelchair since I was 20, and pushing through the woods with a full sized shotgun is no easy feat. the PG with a sling makes a world of difference, and is great for squirrel or rabbit hunting. At this point I usually hunt with a pistol, but the old PG .410 still gets used several times a year. So, again I say everything has a place, what is less than ideal for some may be just the ticket for someone else. Can't we all just get along? :)

Mannlicher
December 27, 2006, 06:40 PM
I am sure that by now, some one has told you to NOT hold it up as if it were full stocked, and sight down the barrel. If ya do, you will know almost immediately that I was truthing you. :D

Mokumbear
December 27, 2006, 08:16 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the advice.

I am not quite sure what got everybody so stirred up.
My experience here is that while people will debate on technical issues,
the members tend to treat each other politely.

I certainly hope we can continue in that spirit.
It's one of the things that I really like about the Firing Line forums.

Anyway, after so many came out against the "cruiser models", I am currently
interested in checking out the Remington 870 Express® Synthetic 18".

I am going to stop by my local gun shop when I have time and see
how well it fits me and if I feel comfortable handling it. :rolleyes:

dixierifleman
December 27, 2006, 08:24 PM
Manlincher, ive shot mine like that, its not bad

guntotin_fool
December 28, 2006, 02:05 AM
I see PG shotties as having a very very defined space in the useful realm.

First as a under the counter gun. if you are in a small store, like a jewelry store or pawn shop or a liquor store, look how much room there is between the counter and the shelves or walls. This is where a PG shottie makes sense.

Entry team. as a breaching gun or a secondary weapon for a team member. (even tho, now you will see most of these at least using an 11 inch pull stock for better recoil control.

PPD, AKA executive protection, the need for a big gun to show up immediately from a concealed place when the poo really hits the rotating ventilation device.

I used to use a folder in my old truck for a truck gun as it was small and able to fit where i needed it. after using it for a bit, I have gone to a speedstock pistol grip/with a 12 inch pull. very useful, very strong, and easier to control recoil with.

Slugthrower
December 30, 2006, 08:46 AM
+1 On the Copstock , wire folder, made by Knoxx.

They claim the recoil reduction to be 54% or better. Personally , it feels more like 35-40% reduction. Either way, I can handle shooting full power buck and slugs through it with no pain. The reduction in recoil is significant. Try one , you may like it. To me it is the best of both worlds. Want more recoil reduction and don't mind a longer OAL then maybe the SpecOps stock is your ticket.

eerudd
December 30, 2006, 12:50 PM
got to say...painful with 00 buck and slugs !!! my wrist hurts like a mofo

WORD