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cgbills
December 12, 2006, 02:47 AM
I have a 120 lumen flashlight on my shotgun, well past the 70 that is considered blinding. So here is my question, when would you use it in home defense? If you are concealed and the BG doesn’t know where you are you wouldn’t want to use it would you? Would you want to use it if you think the BG knows where you are or you think they can see you? What are your thoughts?

skeeter1
December 12, 2006, 03:29 AM
I have no idea the number of lumens, but I have a couple of Maglites converted to EverLED bulbs and I pointed it at my neighbor one night (all in good fun) and he was PO'd. They're not cheap, but they sure are bright, and should last a long time.

http://www.leddynamics.com/EverLED/

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 10:51 AM
I would mainly use the flashlight to make the ID (who the person is and whether they had a weapon.) If I could make the ID without it I would go without it.

In your home, with a shotgun, you should be in a barricaded position, unless you have to round up family members. Either way you have the home field advantage and not using the light (unless you have to) keeps the tactical advantage on your side.

raggededge
December 12, 2006, 11:13 AM
I have a very cheap light (of which I made from various other flashlights) on my 1300. I don't think it's going to blind anyone, but my opinion is this: even if you do manage to blind the guy, he's probably not a very reasonable person. After all, he is in a less-than-accommodating armed man's home. If you shine the light on him and he happens to be armed, who's to say he's not going to just start shooting in the general direction of the light? Not being able to make out the target probably isn't going to stop him from doing so. On the other hand, I'd want to make an absolute, no question positive ID on the guy before something real bad happens.

To sum up, I don't think it's a good tactic to try to use the light itself as a weapon, but it's there if I need it to see, and I'd probably use it in a no light situation.

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 11:54 AM
If you shine the light on him and he happens to be armed, who's to say he's not going to just start shooting in the general direction of the light?

Exactly! Having a blinding light in your eyes does not take away the ability to shoot at the light. They do not have to be good....they only need to be lucky and on Murphy's playing field luck is all they need.

Having a light on the long gun puts the light source on your centerline. They shoot at the light and they center punch you.....bad juju!

Darkness is your friend! Only use the light if you have to use the light to make the ID.

MisterPX
December 12, 2006, 02:33 PM
A light is to ID your target, blinding is just a bonus.

stephen426
December 12, 2006, 02:46 PM
I can understand the arguement about giving away your position, but I think it is more important to clearly identify your target. I would rather risk having someone shoot at me (since I can immediately return fire) than to kill my spouse or kid (if I had a kid). Some members of this forum are all about not giving away your position. That includes having the shotgun loaded, chambered, and good to go. I still think the sound of of a shotgun being racked in the stillness of the night sends a strong message the "you have the wrong house buddy and you better leave if you want to leave alive". Maybe I am just too naive about this kind of stuf... or maybe I'm just not enough of a internet commando.

For me, I prefer to rely on my alarm and my dog to keep someone from even coming in in the first place. I'm also guessing I haven't ****** any one off to the point where they would hire a hitman on me.

If you are that concerned, I would go with a handgun and a handheld light. You could use the FBI flashlight technique which calls for holding the light away from your body so you don't draw fire.

Whatever you do, just don't go blasting away at unidentified targets... PLEASE!

raggededge
December 12, 2006, 02:58 PM
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you go into a dark room shooting. None of the posts have even hinted at that. We're just saying that it's not a good idea to rely on the chance that your light is going to disorient the intruder, and it's probably best to turn the light on after you see a potential target. Then, while ready to defend yourself, you cautiously proceed to ID the figure in the shadows. Otherwise you could be coming down a hall with the light on and never see the suspect, while he can be watching you the entire time.

stephen426
December 12, 2006, 03:09 PM
People are talking about not using the light to keep their tactical advantage". Unless they have excellent night vision, how are they going to determine who their target is? I'm not claiming that anyone said to blast away in the dark, but rather, that they should clearly identify their target.

I think the better thing to do is to send the dog. You will know real quick whether there is someone that doesn't belong in your house. I have an 85 lb. akita and her bark (and they don't bark often) is quite fearsome. Her night vision is far better than any of ours and her nose is hundreds if not thousands of times better.

Deterrance is the best option. That is my main point.

raggededge
December 12, 2006, 03:30 PM
I definitely advocate positively identifying your target. I just don't want to see anyone get shot because they were walking around as a glowing target. By all means use the light, I just don't think walking around with it on the entire time is most prudent.

BigO01
December 12, 2006, 03:40 PM
While I agree completely with IDing your target , I also know that my 90 lumen light will ruin a persons "Night vision" with just a quick flash in their eyes in a really dark room .

Personally I think when actually confronting an armed intruder not just searching for one in your home using the light in quick flashes gives you a great advantage .

If you hit someone in the eyes with a light that bright their natural reaction will be to cover their eyes AND turn their head "and in doing so their upper body" AWAY from the light . If you use flashes the light is off and they now are Night Blind for several seconds and have moved their body position in relation to the source of the light . Chances are if they decide to fire it wont be anywhere near the source of the light unless you have moved .

Now if It were a situation where I thought there were an intruder that I needed to go into another room or down a set of stairs to engage and I could stand back and flood that area with light for several seconds , I would do so while keeping my eyes off of the area and then turn the light off and slowly enter it . Doing so would once again ruin anyones night vision for several seconds . Hopefully long enough to give you the chance to make a positive ID and gain a tactical positional advantage if needed .

firemedic1975
December 12, 2006, 04:41 PM
Bigo01, you are exactly right on what you said, that is the reason that you use a high powered light for home defense.

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 04:56 PM
stephen, Where in the world does it say to not ID the threat?:confused:

Let's not mis-state statements that were never made. This will only confuse the subject. Let's try to actually follow along with what people are saying and not make stuff up to support your opinion on the subject.

Mannlicher
December 12, 2006, 05:07 PM
cgbills, no, I would not depend on the 'bright light' to be a weapon. Might work, might not. The buckshot in your gun is more certain to deter an attack. Personally, I eschew 'bright lights' all together.

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 05:26 PM
I think the better thing to do is to send the dog. You will know real quick whether there is someone that doesn't belong in your house. I have an 85 lb. akita and her bark (and they don't bark often) is quite fearsome. Her night vision is far better than any of ours and her nose is hundreds if not thousands of times better.

If this BG kills your dog and comes after you.....will you use your light to ID him? Or will you keep your tactical advantage and take the already ID'd threat out without him knowing exactly where you are?

Context man.....context! You are preaching an "always" based solution. That is not a wise approach in my eyes.

marlboroman84
December 12, 2006, 05:38 PM
If this BG kills your dog and comes after you.....will you use your light to ID him? Or will you keep your tactical advantage and take the already ID'd threat out without him knowing exactly where you are?

Who is this BG anyway? Sounds like one bad mother. The poster who said to use the light in flashes probably said it best and I agree with Stephen about id'ing the target. If you got a high powered flashlight and you hit someone in the eyes with it in flashes it's gonna screw up their senses and disorient them. Even if they return fire it's not gonna be accurate.

I don't advocate walking around with a light on though. Night lights placed around the house go along way to keep the house visible, but still dark enough not to bother most people when they sleep.

If this BG kills your 85 pound dog, is immune to extremely bright lights, and can return accurate fire when suddenly confronted and a light shined in his eyes you have a bigger problem than your flashlight.

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 05:54 PM
I do not train for the lowest common denominator thug. They are not all crack heads and junkies.....some of them are the worst of the worst. If you want to train for a guy that will be detered by a flashlight be my guest.....I will pass on that mindset.

firemedic1975
December 12, 2006, 06:04 PM
What is trying to be said is that you can ID the perp with your light, which in turn is going to make him close his eyes and turn, due tot he bright light in his eyes. This will give you time to ID him the perp as friend or foe and is he armed or not. Whether he is armed or not does not really matter he is in your house without permission and you don't want him to be. It is not to say that you can not still use your weapon you just might be able to avoid deadly force and all the litagation that comes with it. Most civilians do not have the support ring that comes into play like a cop does when he shoots someone on duty. Soem states have the rule that if anyone os on your property after sundown you are allowed to shoot without asking any questions. Most people do not want to do this thus ID the threat before you shoot. Just an opinion.

marlboroman84
December 12, 2006, 06:10 PM
I do not train for the lowest common denominator thug. They are not all crack heads and junkies.....some of them are the worst of the worst. If you want to train for a guy that will be detered by a flashlight be my guest.....I will pass on that mindset

True, but I'm not advocating attacking someone with a flashlight. I'm talking about peeking around a corner and seeing someone looking under the christmas tree that ain't the jolly old fat man and lighting them up to make sure it ain't cousin Fred trying to see if I really got him that tool set.

If it's someone that doesn't need to be there and they don't make a break for the door IMMEDIATELY, then POP POP, Honey call 911!

I live in a one story though so it's hard for me to use my ninja boots and rapelling rope to slide stealthy above the burglar and snap his neck before sneaking away into the dark. Seriously, some of you guys need to relax. I assume for alot of you the war is over right? :rolleyes:

raggededge
December 12, 2006, 06:42 PM
There's no need for the personal attacks, that's how these threads get out of control and shut down. Can't we just continue presenting our points (most of which have been completely valid whether you agree with them or not) without the heavy sarcasm or snide remarks?

Maybe it's a matter of where you live. The guys that come a knockin' around here (or those that don't bother to) tend to be rather vicious sometimes. It happens frequently enough that these are issues you'd be better off thinking of now rather than "later".

marlboroman84
December 12, 2006, 06:49 PM
There's no need for the personal attacks, that's how these threads get out of control and shut down. Can't we just continue presenting our points (most of which have been completely valid whether you agree with them or not) without the heavy sarcasm or snide remarks?

Maybe it's a matter of where you live. The guys that come a knockin' around here (or those that don't bother to) tend to be rather vicious sometimes. It happens frequently enough that these are issues you'd be better off thinking of now rather than "later".

It's not a personal attack it's just a general statement. Maybe a bit "snippy", but seriously all this "tactical advantage" crap that gets spewed just makes me wonder about the person posting it. I was in the Army, I know about sneaking around and tactical positions etc, but it seems like some posters here just take it to the extreme. I just picture them sleeping in ninja outfits and crawling across the ceiling with night vision goggles whenever they hear a car alarm go off.

There is lax, there is practical, but untrained, there is practical and trained, there is paranoid, and there is off the deep friggin' end! :D

Sweatnbullets
December 12, 2006, 07:59 PM
Boy, you guys sure do love your equipment! Too bad it is the least important of the things that you need.

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Equipment

In that order

Now isn't this all situational? How can there be "absolutes" in a situational circumstance? This is just common sense, let's give it a little thought.

How do you keep the interior of your house lite at night?

How much light comes in from the outside?

How much light comes off of all of electronics with there LED's?

What is the total amount of artificial and ambient light inside of your house?

What can you see inside of your home, within your personal situation?

How can people say to always use a flashlight when they have no idea what another individules situation is?

Use the flashlight if you need to, to make the ID is a common and completely accepted concept.

JohnKSa
December 13, 2006, 12:26 AM
I have an 850 lumen flashlight (Search & Rescue by Black Bear Flashlights). It's quite unlike any flashlight I have ever seen or owned--it's actually brighter than the headlights on my car.

Which brings up an interesting question--when was the last time you found yourself disabled by having headlights shone in your eyes?

It IS very disorienting, especially if your eyes are night-accustomed, but it's not going to be disabling. It WILL buy you a several seconds to do something more decisive unless the person you're dealing with is VERY well-trained.

skeeter1
December 13, 2006, 01:23 AM
The only time I know of that someone tried to break into my house, it was my neighbor's kids, ages 8 and 10. I'm not about to shoot little kids. Positive ID, by houselights or flashlights is first for me. I won't shoot in the dark without knowing who or what I'm shooting at.

Sweatnbullets
December 13, 2006, 04:12 PM
Since it is obvious that everyones situation is going to be different, let's examine the responses for those situations.

We all know that the ID is the most important thing. How we make that ID is definitely situational and seems to be the crux of the disagreement here. Some feel that an ID is only possible with a flashlight....that would be incorrect in my house and in my situation. Some feel that "blinding" is a necessary part of the encounter. I disagree! While this is a nice benefit of a bright flashlight it is not a smart move in all circumstances.

Now let's get back to the question that was asked in the first post, before it became an "always-vs-situational" debate.

So here is my question, when would you use it in home defense? If you are concealed and the BG doesn’t know where you are you wouldn’t want to use it would you?

cgbills has already made the positive ID of the threat. He is willing to do what he needs to do to protect himself and his loved ones from the horrors that could possibly happen when a dangerous threat breaks into his home.That is a done deal! The question is, do you engage from a barricaded/ambush position without using your flashlight? For me, in my situation, in my state, with my responsibilities to my loved one, with my decisions on where my "mental trigger" is, and with my known skill level.....the answer for me is ABSOFRIGGENLUTELY! I would not use my flashlight.

Would you want to use it if you think the BG knows where you are or you think they can see you? What are your thoughts?

Different situation completely right? The clearly ID'd threat (BG) may know where you are. This is where a blinding effect of a flashlight should be used. It does not give away your position, because that has already been compromised. It does give you a tactical advantage to use the light in this circumstance. But I would warn you against thinking that "blinding" is going to save the day. I would light him up and move while engaging, but then again as a firearms instructor.... I have been labled a ninja wannbe. :rolleyes: ;)

Ohio Rusty
December 30, 2006, 10:37 AM
This is my first post to the list, but I can chime in on this one. In the bedroom, on the dresser next to where I sleep I have one of those rechargeable 1.5 Million candlepower spotlights. Being it is rechargeable, there is no cord so you can carry it everywhere with you in the house. Spotlight in one hand, gun in the other. This is my personal home defense light also. I'm a firm believer in using a light this powerful as it is intensely blinding, 100 times more powerful than a handheld light like a surefire. It is impossible for an intruder to even look at you while this light is in his face. In fact, they will more than likely have their back toward you, and their arm over their eyes trying to ward off the intensity. This light also helps identify friend, family member or foe being it clearly illuminates everything. It's alot like trying to look into the sun on a bright day. There is a great psychological factor on your side when using a light like this that gives you the advantage. With this extra edge it will stop a perpitrator in his tracks for a moment ..... long enough for you to either shoot, or to be able to escape since the perp is so blinded he can't see you to chase you. When things go 'bump' in the night, I want the deck stacked in my favor, and this light gives me that advantage. If the badguy has a gun, and wants to shoot at me blinded with his arm over his eyes and his back toward me, I bet I'll come out a 100% winner of that fight. And he'll leave in a body bag ...........
Ohio Rusty

stephen426
December 30, 2006, 11:31 AM
Ohio Rusty,

That sounds like a good idea, but the light is going to seem very bright to you as well, especially if you have light colored walls. The surefires are not nearly as bright, but they are much easier to handle than a heavy spot light. Most of those things have heavy rechargable batteries in them. There are some smaller ones with trigger type on off switches which might work well. Just be sure not to blind yourself as well.

revjen45
December 30, 2006, 12:12 PM
Having a full mag with 1 in the chamber makes me an internet commando?

raggededge
December 30, 2006, 02:33 PM
How are you going to make an ID with his back to you and arm over his eyes?:p

Ohio Rusty
December 31, 2006, 12:50 AM
The only one that lives here with me is my wife. If I hit someone with that light and it's not my wife, then they are in trouble ...big time !! You can tell by the yelling at you if it's your wife ..... I promise .....
Ohio Rusty

revjen45
December 31, 2006, 01:04 PM
"How are you going to make an ID with his back to you and arm over his eyes?"
When you turn the body over, silly. (sorry- meant as black humor. Sarcasm off now.)
If I reach over and feel my wife in the bed, anybody else doesn't belong there. Our son doesn't live with us any more, and he knows well enough to knock. After moving I just located the 1.5m candlepower night light (aka a jacklight if you're using it to look for deer at night). Holding that at arm's length from my body should provide adequate target ID while I deploy the 9mm. Mama's watching my back with the 12 ga pump.
The only times I thought I might be facing an intruder it were scary. Not enough to cause loss of clear thought, but I was glad it was something else- and I didn't open fire randomly.

JohnKSa
December 31, 2006, 04:21 PM
...have one of those rechargeable 1.5 Million candlepower spotlights.You can actually get more light and longer run time from a much smaller package these days. Think 3-D Cell Maglite flashlight size.

Here's one such product being tested against several different spotlights rated up to 5 Million CP.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2171840&postcount=68

SpiritWalker
January 11, 2007, 08:58 PM
So here is my question, when would you use it in home defense? If you are concealed and the BG doesn’t know where you are you wouldn’t want to use it would you? Would you want to use it if you think the BG knows where you are or you think they can see you? What are your thoughts?

I have a preplanned position where I'll wait for the cops to arrive and if I detect movement my SureFire goes on. If the person is not someone I know well and trust...

TCman
January 18, 2007, 04:47 PM
I have a 80? lumen shurefire and I will ruin your night vision if you get hit with it. I love it!! I highly recomend one.

ckd
January 18, 2007, 05:25 PM
Blinding lights are a great tactic, that should be at the ready outside the home too, part of one's EDC. Subjectively, 80 lumens seems to be the minimum, LEDs blushish tint have an advantage, and the strobe effect of the Gladius is very disorienting; all probably becoming standards in defensive flashlights in the near future.

The only downside to a rechargeable is its time to recharge and of course needing a charging source; during an power outage or away from your vehicle. My lights are split between rechargables and standard size replaceables; BUF? (back up flashlight), just like having a BUG.

At 1.5 million candle power you should be able to incinerate him:)

JustSteve
January 21, 2007, 01:56 AM
I have been hit in the eye's by a bright L.E.D. flashlight ,it wasn't a total darkness situation ,and my vision was screwed up for hours:eek: .I have read almost all of the posts on this thread and it seems to me alot of you live in pitch dark home with family members that like to skulk around in it,even at the risk of being shot:D .I live in a two story and there is at least one light burning on the first floor 24/7,most of the time ther is two.A couple of well placed mirrors make it easier to see activity down there before even hitting the steps.In the rooms I can't see the is enough toe breaking furniture to be tripped over in the dark,especially if you don't live here.