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njtrigger
December 7, 2006, 11:29 PM
Many people discount the psychological effects of a good old shotgun. When you go to a shotgun range, the boom of the shotgun is much wilder then a shot from a pistol or a rifle. There is no doubt in my mind that most people will dive for the ground or run the other way once they hear that sound.

Lets say you believe that someone is in your house. They actually sell high decibel cartridges without any shot. You can sound off a warning shot and after hearing that sound, I bet whoever is in your house will be running for the door quick.

However, the biggest advantage is the greatest drawback. I cannot imagine ever firing a shotgun without hearing protection. When I am at a shotgun range, the sound jars me enough from 50 feet away without hearing protection.

I have never fired off a shotgun without something stuffed in my ears. I can only imagine the hearing loss that would come from firing one without.

gdvan01
December 7, 2006, 11:40 PM
They actually sell high decibel cartridges without any shot.And let us remember that even though there is no 'projectile', these type of shells will usually still have 'emissions' that can be dangerous at close range.

I'm certain that the noise level inside a dwelling as the result of a shotgun discharge is quite respectable....that's why if my ears are going to ring I'm putting holes in someone's arse.

raggededge
December 7, 2006, 11:52 PM
If someone has broken into my house and I have my shotgun shouldered with intent to shoot someone, I want a live shell chambered. Forget trying to scare the guy away with a warning shot.

Venison_Jerkey32
December 7, 2006, 11:53 PM
I have never fired off a shotgun without something stuffed in my ears. I can only imagine the hearing loss that would come from firing one without.

It's not really that bad. Of course I've never shot one inside, but I wouldn't say it's any louder than a high powered rifle when you are shooting outside.

Maximus856
December 8, 2006, 12:12 AM
Am I wrong in thinking I dont want a bad guy to run away? I'd rather stop him in his place so he can't do it again. I personally would have a hard time thinking he may go on to some old ladies house and do whatever he does, or thinking maybe next time he will come back prepared. I'd rather have him on the ground (with or without lead) and a phone in my other hand calling the police.. I don't mean to play LEO, but thats what I *think* I'd do, or try at least.

-Max.

chemist308
December 8, 2006, 12:53 AM
It's not really that bad. Of course I've never shot one inside, but I wouldn't say it's any louder than a high powered rifle when you are shooting outside.
Um, put it this way for you. I've always been around firearms for most of my life. Often with or without hearing protection for both high powered rifles and shotguns alike. As a result I never understood the logic behind a concussion grenade--that is until a 12 guage accidentally discharged indoors on me. It was so much that at first neither myself nor the person I was with even knew *** had happened. It was easily a good 2 seconds of shock before we got our bearings and understood what had happened.

bclark1
December 8, 2006, 12:59 AM
indoors is a different story, but a 12ga in general's not bad. i wouldn't stand next to the muzzle or anything, but mag loads without hearing protection never bothered me.

King_chin0
December 8, 2006, 01:33 AM
Actually my friend accidentally shot a 12gauge Mossberg 500 in his house and blew a hole in the floor (Fixed the same day, he is a handyman when it comes to house work) we were in the same room with him, we were shocked, but my ears wasn't ringing really, my ears actually ring more shooting a .45acp outside, but its just me.

If someone has broken into my house and I have my shotgun shouldered with intent to shoot someone, I want a live shell chambered. Forget trying to scare the guy away with a warning shot.

If its a pump, like a Mossberg, its 5 in Magazine and one in chamber, just keep that one in chamber to be the blank, and keep the rest HD loads. Most of the time, the sound of a shotgun cocking is enough to scare them away. Personally I wouldn't even want the BG to know where I am, and try to stay hidden and just put one in him (Make it a leg shot, most states will come bite you in the a$$ for using deadly forces even if it is a BG in your house, its bull, I know) A double barrel 12gauge is my preference for home defense with a.45acp on the hip (Pulling both triggers on a 12gauge double aiming at the legs, can I say amputate or atleast immobile), but most of the time you wouldn't have enough time to reach for all the goodies, so a multi-shot shotgun will make a good HD weapon. If you have a family, lets say wife and kids, grab the shotgun, grab kids and take them to the room and baracade yourself in there, and call 911. It is very dangerous to pursue a BG in the house where you have both your wife and kids in. With the doors locked, after calling police, wait for the police to come, and most likely they will stay on the phone with you. If the BG tried to force his way through the door, which most likely they will not try to enter a locked door because they are trying to get out of there ASAP, if he does, there is a 12 gauge waiting for him if he makes it thru, and let me say, a 12 gauge at close range is garunteed to put him on his a$$.

If you have an alarm system, hit the police/panic button. Most of the time, the sound of the alarm works much better then the shotgun going off, because it will alert all your neighbors, and it will notify the police at that. If I'm the BG, I will probably think, "Oh man the idiot upstairs just shot himself, what a dumbass!" The reason I say this is because, ok, a shot was fired, and there seems to be no physical or enviornmental damage around him, so he knows that the gun wasn't pointing towards him.

The other thing would be, if you have a family it is best not to try and fire in the house, because there are many incidence where there are collateral damage, and please not let it be one of our loved ones. With a BG in the house it is a very difficult decision in weather or not to pursue the enemy. If you are well trained in CQC (Close Quarter Combat) stay in the shadows with a knife and disarm the BG ninja style :D

raggededge
December 8, 2006, 01:44 AM
I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. My HD gun is a 1300 Defender that'll hold 7 in the mag. If I'm going to confront someone brazen or stupid enough to enter my home with ill-intent, the first thing I want him to hear is my command to freeze, not a loud report with no effect and not a click-clack of me racking the gun. If he chooses to disregard my command, in no time at all my finger will send my little lead enforcers his way. I'd like to think that I'd be able to rack the gun and send him scurrying or even have enough time after that to shoot if necessary, but why risk it? Also, I respect your wish to incapacitate rather than kill, but I'm going for center mass. That's not really pertinent to the subject, though, so let's not start a debate on that.

mete
December 8, 2006, 02:03 AM
Racking the gun assumes he is rational enough to understand the sound and respond. Shouting commands assumes the same thing. These days you have a very good chance of the BG high on drugs so he is incapable of hearing , understanding or responding to the above !!!....When you fire a warning shot you have wasted a round !!!

raggededge
December 8, 2006, 02:05 AM
That is exactly why I want my finger on the trigger with a live shell in the chamber. If he isn't in the frame of mind to comply, I will be ready to force compliance.

King_chin0
December 8, 2006, 02:12 AM
Thanks for the compliment raggededge. We all comply to situations differnt, and I respect others dicision in handling a situation. Again, I am just giving my .02. I'm sure there are others out there who has much more knowledge then me. May I suggest while you command the BG to freeze, you rack the gun to put on in the chamber. :)

Double Naught Spy
December 8, 2006, 08:21 AM
Lets say you believe that someone is in your house. They actually sell high decibel cartridges without any shot. You can sound off a warning shot and after hearing that sound, I bet whoever is in your house will be running for the door quick.

That isn't a good bet.

By discharging a lethal weapon, even with a non-lethal or less lethal load, you have opened fire on your intruder, both legally and as perceived by the intruder. In this case, opened fire with a non-projectile discharge from a very limited capacity platform. The discharge has no real potential to actually incapacitate your intruder who will then engage in a fight and/or flight response. In the process, you have given away your position within your home, thereby taking away one of your advantages, their lack of knowledge of where you are. Since the intruder(s) now know your location and think you are firing at him/them. If the instruder(s) is armed, then you may expect to start receiving immediate return fire from REAL BULLETS. They may do this during exfiltration, but that will still be incoming fire to YOU and your those in your home.

Glenn E. Meyer
December 8, 2006, 11:32 AM
Get a sound system and put speakers around your house. Play the sound of racking and shooting. No need even to have a gun.

Add the sound of a pack of growling hounds.

One can get alarm systems that sound interior very loud obnoxious sirens.

Guns are for actually using them as instruments of lethal force and not sound effect, IMO. Not saying you have to shoot but let's not futz around in emergency situations.

firestorm9mm
December 8, 2006, 02:24 PM
+ 1 to glenn. If you don't want to use lethal force get a tazer, mace, stungun.

raggededge
December 8, 2006, 02:27 PM
Exactly what I've been saying all along.

Bigfatts
December 8, 2006, 02:52 PM
If you are well trained in CQC (Close Quarter Combat) stay in the shadows with a knife and disarm the BG ninja style

Don't forget your body armor in case you need to take multiple .308 hits to the back :D.

Seriously though, if I ever need to use a shotgun in the house it will be a situation that warrants the imminent death of someone. There will be no fooling around with blanks, racking of actions, etc. There will be a command to desist if the situation allows, or there will be a boom. If you aren't willing to kill or do serious bodily harm to the person in question, don't bring out the guns.

old 12 gauge
December 8, 2006, 04:15 PM
just the unexpected noise of a 12Ga mag going off in the house will put most people on their knees. lol

+ 1 to glenn. If you don't want to use lethal force get a tazer, mace, stungun.
or a spray can of bear repellent-- it's legal to have in states where mace and other things aren't, not legal to spray people with, but who cares when the buglar is down and your family is safe.

King_chin0
December 8, 2006, 04:59 PM
or a spray can of bear repellent-- it's legal to have in states where mace and other things aren't, not legal to spray people with, but who cares when the buglar is down and your family is safe.

I have to agree, that will be a very good way to disarm a BG too. Hitting a BG with a Stun Gun works well too. Actually saw a police officer stun a man on the streets, guy feel almost instantly on impact. Didn't get up for a few minutes. Just in case he tries to get up, you can always stun him until he twirk like the crackhead that they are. But back to the shot gun blanks. In Hong Kong where I was born and raised half my life, police carried a S&W .38special. The first round they have is actually a blank, they teach them to rotate the chamber so the blank is the first shot to be fired if weapons have to be drawn for a warning, because a shot fired in the air is very dangerous due to the skyscrapers all over Hong Kong. Back to the indoor noise, yes it would be devastating, but like I have said, a noise like that will only give your position away, as in retaliation, they might just start firing out of the blue. Like Double Naught Spy says, its pretty much the same thing I have said. As far as I can see, we have got the results of this thread, it is a negative effect, and a bad idea altogether. If a shot is to be fired, make that shot count.

Bigfatts all I can say is :D

raggededge
December 8, 2006, 05:17 PM
I have a funny little story that's kind of related to this (if it's too far off topic, I'm sorry).

One day a friend had come by needing some things printed. My computer is in my bedroom, so off we went. Having just cleaned my 1300, it was lying on the bed unloaded. So as I'm at my computer going about printing his documents, he glances outside and sees some guy getting up close and personal with my car. Now, since I've had the car parked outside like that, I've gotten on average two offers per week for it (it's a pretty rough looking '79 Malibu, but I snagged it in TX and it hasn't a spot of rust), so I'm used to people looking at my car. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but what are you gonna do? It's broad daylight, so I'm sure that the guy just wants to know if it's for sale. My friend on the other hand is sure that this guy's going to break into the car. I tell him just to keep an eye on him and don't worry about it. He wasn't satisfied with that answer and said I should rack the gun to scare him away.:rolleyes: Knowing it was unloaded, I told him to knock himself out. So window open, guy standing about 20ft outside the house, my friend picks it up and proceeds with the sound we all know and love. The guy's reaction was priceless. He stands up straight, looks around, and WALKS TO THE FRONT DOOR TO RING THE BELL. Sure enough, he wanted to buy the car. If that's not proof-positive that some people just aren't afraid of that, I don't know what is. Sure, it probably would have been different if a warning shot were fired, but remember, this guy was sober (I think) and of a somewhat rational mind.

Dwight55
December 8, 2006, 07:17 PM
My only problem with firing a "warning" shot from my shotgun is simple. In order to fire the shotgun, . . . I will have already gone through the first 9 in the 1911, . . . the second mag (8), . . . the third mag (8), . . . and if the .380 is on the top shelf of the gun safe like it usually is, . . . 7 rounds out of it, . . . then the Ruger 9mm hanging on the door (11 rds) plus two more 10 rd mags for it, . . . and maybe the Colt Det Spec, . . . while I'm reaching for the Beretta 12 ga.:eek:

I'm not sure a "warning" shot for the bg would be appropriate at that point, . . . or maybe it would just be "pointless".:D

May God bless,
Dwight

Duckman44!
December 8, 2006, 07:35 PM
A warning shot will likely leave your ears ringing which will take away your hearing in a situation where hearing is your most usefull sense. If you want to go looking for the intruder then do it quietly and keep one in the chamber. You'll be glad you did if you ever need to use your gun. Everything is ready to go and you have the element of surprise and your hearing to boot!

RevolverLover
December 8, 2006, 07:58 PM
Many people discount the psychological effects of a good old shotgun.

Your the first person I know that has said that.

revjen45
December 8, 2006, 08:34 PM
The only sound coming from my shotgun before commencing fire will be the click of the safety going to "off."

ISP2605
December 9, 2006, 09:26 AM
Hitting a BG with a Stun Gun works well too. Actually saw a police officer stun a man on the streets, guy feel almost instantly on impact. Didn't get up for a few minutes. Just in case he tries to get up, you can always stun him until he twirk like the crackhead that they are.
I've seen less lethal bean bags deployed several times, both 12 ga and 37mm. Don't depend on them to work. Here's an article which explains details of a few of those incidents:
http://frontpage.dallas.net/~shinder/SurviveL/April1999/survive0499.htm

In the mid-80s we did a raid of a drug party house where there were about 60 people in attendance. My team made the entry and then the city PD guys came in and held the perimeter. We had just secured the rooms and had the occupants proned on the floor when one of the PD guys came in carrying a his shotgun. Just as he passed me and was about 3 ft behind me he had a ND. That definitely gets your attention, especially when you're still trying to get a houseful of people secured. It was definitely loud but more so a surprise. Wasn't deaf afterwards and no ringing ears. Also have done numerous live fire entrances in buildings. A couple of times guys would inadvertently forget their ear plugs. It was loud, it would get your attention, and you'd immediately remember you forgot your plugs.
If you are going into a tactical situation, no rd in the chamber, and expect the sound of racking a rd to be an intimidating factor in the outcome, remember this - you just went into a deadly force situation with an empty gun.

jhenry
December 9, 2006, 09:58 AM
The ONLY thing that can be counted on to stop someone intent on doing you serious bodily harm is enough structural damage or blood loss to shut them down. That being said please understand that folks are certainly persuaded to run or at least stop with some regularity by certain sounds or sights. ie: someone yelling they have a gun, the sound of a shotgun racking etc. etc. BUT, when in defense of your family or person you need to consider the worst case scenario not the best case scenario.

Worst case is an amped up evildoer with no soul or pesky conscience to get in the way who would actually enjoy torturing and raping your family before your eyes and cutting their throats. If he/they are amped up enough they are not going to be disuaded by you protests, yelling, ammunition without lead in it, or even non fatal wounds.

I would rather not shoot folks which is why (depending on the particular circumstances) I have a voice to yell with if that is a viable option, OC to use if that is a viable option, a big dog who is in at night, and firearms of a major caliber that are loaded with real ammunition.

Axion
December 9, 2006, 09:48 PM
let's not futz around in emergency situations.

My thoughts exactly. If I ever have a gun trained on someone it's going to be because I'm in fear for my life (or a loved ones' life). At that point in time there is no time for games.

SpiritWalker
January 11, 2007, 09:14 PM
revjen45: The only sound coming from my shotgun before commencing fire will be the click of the safety going to "off."

Hear! Hear! and AMEN!

cloudcroft
January 12, 2007, 07:28 PM
njtrigger,

You're right -- but even a handgun will be LOUD indoors -- that's why I have these to put on at night if I suspect I have boarders...and need to repel same:

http://www.pro-ears.com/

I have the Pro Ears "Dimension 1" Pro Mag model...it's right next to my shorty Mossberg 500 near my bed!

-- John D,

Mueller
January 12, 2007, 11:31 PM
A warning shot in my opinion is the one with the full load of buckshot or slug, personally addressed to the BG, in my home, who's unauthorized presence, since obviously he had to break in, gives me reasonable concern to be in fear for my life.

If it has proceeded to that point (shooting) after demanding that he/they leave and the police have been called, then I feel sufficient warning has been provided under the law and they obviously, have a much more serious intent than a simple burglary, because if the presence of a homeowner claiming to have a gun and to have called the police, is not enough to make them leave, then you are finished talking and anything except the judicious application of lethal force is a waste of valuable time.

Scare shells and screamers are only intended for use in single shot shotguns, manufacturer's recommendation, since they have been known to have only the primer go off and kick the banger partially out of the shell and jam in the forcing cone area or be lodged in the barrel. I have even seen a fired bang shell ejected from a remington 870 and leave the plastic body in place , with the next round getting rammed into the chamber, completely tying up the gun, what fun that was, trying to remove a live cartridge that had a pyrotechnic component. They can also start fires.

Nope, in my opinion in this situation, a firearm has one purpose and it isn't to warn someone.

JohnKSa
January 12, 2007, 11:45 PM
Having fired a gun indoors once without hearing protection, I'm not eager to do it again.

I certainly wouldn't do it if I couldn't see the person. I don't fancy the idea of making myself temporarily deaf with an intruder whose whereabouts in the house I don't know.

G-Cym
January 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
The sound of a shotgun may be scary to some, but not all. If you're going to pull a weapon on someone, you better be able to go all the way. Dummy rounds seems like a pretty bad idea. You may need to fire that first shot at somebody, and if it's not a real round, than you're screwed. You may as well have an Airsoft gun if you're not ready to put rounds downrange at the enemy when you need to.

Maser
January 13, 2007, 12:18 AM
With all due respect and not meaning to offend anyone here who has actually had to USE their HD shotgun on a BG breaking into their house, it really bothers me to hear some of the members here basicly saying "shoot first ask questions later". In all self defense shooting articles I have read it basicly says to only use deadly force as a LAST resort. I am not saying that lethal force should not be used if the BG is not complying or is still posing a lethal threat to you or your family. I just feel you need to use proper judgement in an HD situation. I understand that it's easy for me to sit here and say all this having never been in an HD situation and that things are a lot different in the heat of the moment, but I feel that if you catch a BG in your house and are able to get your shotgun and have it cocked and loaded and give out strong commands at a reasonable distance, then you have control of the situation and unless the BG is on drugs or a complete nut job then he should realize that and not want to continue his malicious act and face a 12 gauge blast at close range.

Now as far as the sound of a 12 gauge muzzle report goes, to me all big guns pretty much sound the same. The only time I even came remotly close to shooting my 12 gauge indoors was this one time when a possum was in the back yard and it was too dark for the open sites on my 10/22. No, at the time I didn't have the flashlight mounted on it. :p So I got my shotgun and I didn't want to open the door and scare it away so I pointed the shotgun out the window and had the muzzle about 1-2 inches out the window and fired. WOW!! It echoed so much into my house. Never do that again. I didn't get in trouble from my parents though because we raise rabbits and the possums like to steal their food and at times try to kill the new born pups. The possum is one animal I would not mind becoming extinct. I freaking hate them ugly giant white rats. :mad:

AndrewD
January 13, 2007, 12:45 AM
ANyone who is gung ho about home defense with firearms most likely does so out of a desire to protect their family. I would urge the same people to project the financial and emotional damage that the family will sustain after they kill or wound a home intruder who did not present a threat to someone. You will at least be sued civilly, and possibly go to jail, regardless of what you think is right or wrong.

I have nothing against defending the home and family with deadly force, if necessary, and I would do so in a heart beat. But you cannot just shoot anyone who breaks into your house. They have to be presenting a threat of death or great bodily injury to someone to justify deadly force.

That being said, I wouldn't cripple your HD shotgun by loading a blank as the first round. Can you guarantee that you will get more than one shot in a life or death situation? I wouldn't bet lives on it.

cloudcroft
January 13, 2007, 01:05 AM
If the intruders are dead, it's only your story what happened, not yours AND the intruders' stories.

Besides, ANY intruder inside your house IS a threat. Period.

Don't make it complicated with all the soul-searching and angst...criminals sure don't.

-- John D.

AndrewD
January 13, 2007, 01:29 AM
An intruder running away from you is not a threat. An intruder who entered your house completely intoxicated thinking it was their house and passed out on the floor is not a threat. You would kill these hypothetical people? If you did, you would probably end up in jail, and rightfully so.

As far as soul-searching and angst, I don't see much of that in my post. If you can find some, please point it out.

There is a sticky at the top of this forum :
The pendulm (and scythe) are swinging (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205313). If you haven't read it, you should.

JohnKSa
January 13, 2007, 01:30 AM
If the intruders are dead, it's only your story what happened, not yours AND the intruders' stories.There's also the forensics story as well...

It's probably not wise to suggest on a public forum that you would (or that others should) shoot someone merely for breaking into a house.

I do agree that someone who breaks into your house should be treated as a threat, but that doesn't mean one should (nor should advocate that the homeowner should) automatically perforate him on sight. There are levels of threat and those levels determine how a person can legally respond to that threat.

cloudcroft
January 13, 2007, 12:27 PM
You guys are dreaming...get with the real world.

AndrewD,

An intruder in my house is a threat. Feel free to define your OWN situation, but not mine.

If you can't see the angst, please learn more about yourself...I don't have the time nor inclination to educate you...that's your mission, should you choose to accept it. Besides, I'm retired now...got to have time to do lots of retired things such as deciding which coffeeshop to go to today (Dennys, Village Inn, IHOP, Starbucks, Bad Ass Coffee, etc.) and where to go cruising with my v-twin cruiser MC. That's much more pressing at the moment...sorry.

But good luck to you anyway.


JohnKSa,

True, but don't worry...the forensics will match the story. This is Texas...the mentality is sometimes different here. I know mine is.

As for what to say or not say, I'm just "keeping it real" (if I may indulge in some ebonics for a moment) here. Also, having been a criminal once myself, I speak their language, which is very helpful. So I look at things as they do...simple and with extreme violence. Also having been a combat vet, I see it as a personal war, one-on-one. Works for me.

But you guys go on with all the "deep thoughts." Please say "Hello" for me to Jack Handy when you see him. ;)

Regards,

-- John D.

JohnKSa
January 13, 2007, 02:11 PM
So I look at things as they do...simple and with extreme violence. Also having been a combat vet, I see it as a personal war, one-on-one. Works for me.Unfortunately you don't get to be the final word. It will also have to "work for" the courts.

There is not anything in Texas law (I live in TX too. ;) ) that allows you to use deadly force simply because someone has illegally entered your house. You must reasonably believe that using deadly force is the only option for ending the situation and further reasonably believe that if you do not immediately use deadly force your life will be endangered.Don't make it complicated with all the soul-searching and angst...criminals sure don't.The law acknowledges your right to protect your life and the lives of your family. It doesn't give you the right to shoot anyone who illegally enters your house. It doesn't give you the right to declare a "personal war" or to indiscriminately use "extreme violence" on "ANY intruder inside your house" nor does it give you the ability to do what "works for you" with impunity.

It's not complicated, but it's not as simple as shoot "ANY intruder inside your house" either.

If you wish to declare that this is how you will handle this type of situation, that's your prerogative. Recommending that others do the same and/or excoriating them for saying that they will not is a different story.

AndrewD
January 13, 2007, 02:27 PM
Cloudcroft, please tone it down a bit. There is no angst in my post. I was only presenting my opinion that is backed by law enforcement professionals in my area who taught these things to me. If you use deadly force against someone who is not a threat, you should count on facing legal trouble, criminal and civil. Once you take that action, there are consequences, regardless of whether you feel you were justified or not. That's all. If that's what comprises soul-searching angst and new age deep thoughts, there is a retired Captain in the US Park Police, an NPS ranger on his twentieth year of that career after retiring as a 20 year veteran of the Park Police, a Lieutenant with the local SO, and many other LEO's who instruct at an academy that handles the LE training for a large piece of this state who really fooled me. I think I'll take their word over yours.

sanson
January 13, 2007, 02:43 PM
my dad is a (lifetime)FL cop. here you must prove your life was in danger before deadly force. being really scared or angry is NOT enough. on the other hand, cops usually KNOW who the bad guy is. but the prosecuter needs to charge somebody. he feels the judge will sort things out. personally I hate courtrooms and yes if I can't scare somebody out of my house(pumping a shotgun or cycling an autopistol) I see no choice but to fire.(to kill) JUST MY WORTHLESS OPINION SO DON'T START SCREAMING AT ME:p

LICCW
January 13, 2007, 06:20 PM
There is something else, what if the assailant is on drugs? He may not even notice a warning shot if he's some skell all freaked out on some crazy stuff. I have to agree with those who have posted the opinion that don't bother with a firearm if you do not want to even consider the use of deadly force.

Mark B
January 13, 2007, 10:16 PM
In my case the sound of rackiing the slide wouldn't make much difference anyway. The only thing anyboby would be able to hear is my dog barking/BG screaming:D

cloudcroft
January 13, 2007, 11:46 PM
You two guys...:rolleyes:

Good luck,

-- John D.

wayneinFL
January 14, 2007, 12:39 AM
"my dad is a (lifetime)FL cop. here you must prove your life was in danger before deadly force. being really scared or angry is NOT enough."

You don't have to prove your life was in danger. You have to prove you reasonably believed your life was in danger.

In Lake Worth a few years ago an officer shot a man who was on the roof of his home threatening officers with a pellet gun. The officer was charged with anything. And they shouldn't as long as you "reasonably believe" your life was in danger or that you were in danger of grave bodily harm.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 15, 2007, 10:47 AM
If the bad guy doesn't flee immediately, how many times should you rack your shotgun to scare him?

Cloudcroft - want to put up your legal and/or training credentials to convince us of your views of TX law and tactics? :D

2400
January 15, 2007, 12:58 PM
The only sound coming from my shotgun before commencing fire will be the click of the safety going to "off."

+1 If I have to shoot it will be to stop the threat.

whip1
January 16, 2007, 04:44 PM
A guy I used to work with told me a story about his son. The son was at home, alone in the evening. He heard some yelling outside. When he checks it out, he sees his neighbor/friend is in an arguement with another guy. The son is a bit of a hothead. He decieded to get his fathers shotgun, and help his friend. He runs to the neighbors yard, and racks the slide. Of course this gets everyones attention. The bad guy was about twice the size of the son, and he made some comments about the son being a sissy hiding behind the gun. More words are exchanged, and the son gets very hot! He decides to pull the trigger! Unknown to the son, the gun was empty! The bad guy proceeds to remove the shotgun from the son, beats the son up, and takes the gun. The bad guy tells the neighbor that the gun would make up for the money he owed, and they were even. The worst part was the neighbor had the money, and he was going to pay.The neighbor was upset that the bad guy showed up at work trying to collect, and that is what they were yelling about. Appearently the son got beat up, and lost a gun for nothing!

revjen45
January 16, 2007, 08:19 PM
This story has 2 lessons:
1) Don't introduce a gun into a situation which has not already degenerated into potentially lethal violence, and
2) Don't stick your face into situations that are none of your business.
One of my son's good friends got sent to jail for pulling a knife in a situation that was none of his business, but he just HAD to br the hero and get involved in an argument over a dog barking at one of his neighbors. He lucked out and got off on a misdemeanor, but now he has a crime of violence on his record.

cloudcroft
January 16, 2007, 11:43 PM
Glenn E. Meyer,

I told a friend about some of the people in these assorted gun forums.

He said something pretty profound: "Don't wast time talking to the already dead."

So no, I won't.

-- John D.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 17, 2007, 11:43 AM
Ok - this is a zombie thread then? :D

Delta Dave
January 17, 2007, 04:06 PM
Okay, Glenn, I just gotta know. What's futzing? Is that some kind of yankee term? They may do that up north but I ain't never seen or heard of it down here.:D

Okay, I'm off that now. Are you as cold as I am? Still got ice on the cars on this side of town.


Dave

Socrates
January 17, 2007, 04:48 PM
First off, if I had to shoot someone here, I'd loose the gun to an evidence locker, be worried about the gang punks 'homies'
coming after me, and, have the mental anguish about killing another human being, not to mention the legal process.
It's last on my list of things I'd like to do. Taking human life is not something I take lightly.

I would like to come up with another means of getting rid of the person, such as a fire extingusher in the face, bear spray, etc. in concert with a firearm for backup.

If the following is true with a .357, think about shotgun at point blank range:
nyeti on 357 close range
Wanna know why 125 gr. JHP .357 mag works so well on people? Noise and Flash. Several years ago I was talking about this load with some of the foremost experts in ballistic testing (and they don't write articles in gun rags). These are folks who use real labs, and have excellent access to L/E shootings. Their initial findings were that 125 JHP .357 mag is an "above average" performing round in gelatim testing, but nothing like its reputation. They began looking at L/E street shootings with the round and found an interesting set of similar circumstances existed during shootings with dramatic success. The shootings took place at night, at less than 6 FEET, with barrels 4" or less...................anybody want to raise their hand who wants to be in front of that. 125 gr. .357 mag's will throw a 15 yard ball of flame down range. Can you imagine what its like at 6 feet or less. The conclusion was that the blast and noise was a significant factor in making this round very succesful in shooting people at very close range.


Keep in mind that often thieves are young kids, at least in our area, going in because someone leaves their door unlocked. The gang scenario is unlikely, but possible, since Concord does have extensive gangs, but, our area police do a very good job of keeping them out of the area.

I would NOT like to have to justify using deadly force on some punk kid just out of high school. We also have very smart kids that do really dumb things.

Also, three strikes DOES work. What it's done is make home robberies less frequent, since they are a strike, as is
burglary of a home. Therefore career criminals are less likely to do home robberies now, then prior, and, those that do, and are caught, end up with 25 to life.

I find the comments here divided into people that have dealings with the lower elements of our society, the hardened criminals that should be in jail, and, those that don't have to deal with those kind of folks.

Come to think of it, the most likely burglary I'd have is an illegal, with his free government pass to steal.
Anyone of our near majority illegal aliens can come into your house, steal whatever they like, and, if they get caught, the INS has about 3 days before they must be released. Since the INS is so under staffed, and, Federal judges don't have a lot of court room space, nor do they like hearing minor things like burglaries, the aliens have a free ticket to steal. Our local police have caught many such folks, and had to release them, when the INS failed to pick them up. Pretty much, the only thing that will get the INS/Federal prosecutors' attention is murder, large drug deals, etc. High profile crimes.

These folks are often poor, and, few are violent.

Also, for all those who think they can't sue, remember the guy in Arizona that lost his ranch for shooting illegals...

S

AndrewD
January 17, 2007, 05:56 PM
cloudcroft, that is a childish way to deal with a reasonable question.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 18, 2007, 10:49 AM
Dave - Futzing - not really Yankee but more specifically ethnic - Oy!

Means - wasting time in meaningless activity not really relevant but seemingly important to some - in this case, self-proclaimed tactical experts.

Socrates
January 18, 2007, 11:32 AM
Glen:
Nice to see you have had a positive academic experience concerning firearms.

In public schools, in Kali, it's a topic that doesn't lend itself to a positive result, with most here being facist-liberals...

S