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View Full Version : What would training tell you to do in this real incident.


gvf
November 22, 2006, 04:07 AM
Our street is beautiful and generally good citizens live on it. Low crime. BUT (and this is one reason I applied for CCW) there have been shootings from a nearby neighbohood that is violent and has had many gang shootings, which in the recent past have "bled" over to our street. Someone was shot and killed in front of the house next door, 2 BG who had carried their gun fight to our street. Later, I had trouble with a drugged up couple, the man seeming to chase after the woman with signs of a beating being the goal; as I dfrifted down towards them while calling 911 I found I was isolated from other neighbors watching, and the BG was walking to me. The 911 opertor heard what was transpiring as he began to threaten me and she got the cops there but quick. All was OK.

But the situation I pose for feedback is an actual resident of the street who was attacked. Strangely, the head of the pistol permit office when I was applying told me the story becasue he knew it from living on my same street.

Down our block, a guy usually and habitually came home about 1:00 am, when he finished work I guess, something like that. He'd been cased by a group of BG for awhile it seems, for one night as he went to his side door to go in, he was met by 2 or 3 (or more) young punks. They were waiting in the shadows. They had guns drawn, and demanded his money, which he turned over without a fight. THEN, they shot him - and ran away. Luckily, his wounds weren't lethal and he surrvived, though was quite sick for awhile.

Say it was you and you had a legal weapon, CCW or gun from your house - say CCW since I guess he drove in, parked in back of his house, and then attempted to enter his home from the side door. They're close around you and have guns drawn. Do you feel you would have the only alternative the guy did (he had no CCW), give up the money and hope for the best, and in this case get shot?
Or does anyone feel there may have been a way out, run, draw and shoot your CCW fast etc.
I myself couldn't think of any. I guess I would have turned over the money and gotten shot also. Certainly did make me think though.
"?"
GVF

timothy75
November 22, 2006, 04:27 AM
Thats a tough situation, and as usuall the way to handle those is before hand with planning and tactics. Its hard to answer since I dont know the postioning involved or the mans physical ability. If your backs to the wall you cant jump and they've surrounded you, you might be best off complying and trying to be funny. But if he had checked his area with a 99 cent flashlight before getting out of the car all would have been avoided.

burnera
November 22, 2006, 04:38 AM
if their gun is already drawn there's not a whole lot you can do.
For me it would depend on how many guns they have and how close they are.

Arms length away, and only 1 gun, you could gamble with slapping their gun away [or krav maga stuff] and drawing.

Otherwise i'd have to go with "give it up and hope". I know i'm not fast enough to draw, 'aim' and fire before they could simply pull the trigger.

saypek
November 22, 2006, 05:29 AM
But if he had checked his area with a 99 cent flashlight before getting out of the car all would have been avoided.

+1. Check your surroundings first. And maybe you can get something better that a 99 cent flashlight. :D

if their gun is already drawn there's not a whole lot you can do.

+1 again. Trying to draw on multiple BG's with guns already pointed at you is suicide.

That's a tough situation man. My advice is to train train and train. Learn to smell trouble and always be aware of your surroundings. You can also request for LEO's to patrol your area more frequently. Good luck and hope you won't be put in that kind of situation.

CDH
November 22, 2006, 06:51 AM
Ideas; some hindsight:

1. Since this guy knows that he comes home at 1:00 every morning, he should have lighted the area, gotten rid of any nearby hiding places, or installed a fence that would allow him to control and watch his entry better. There certainly shouldn't have been any nearby "shadows" to hide in.

2. Once in the exact situation you describe, I would have reached for my wallet acting quite sheepish and nervous to try to keep them thinking they are in control and therefore more relaxed and careless, and I would have drawn and shot all of them at the first opportunity.
Yes, I would in all likelyhood be dead from attempting that, but I went to the trouble of going to CCW carry for the sole purpose of following through my decision to not be a victim. If I am injured or killed while I am defending myself, I am at least a "player", and NOT a victim no matter the outcome.

3. Being more aware of your surroundings at all times, and controlling your surroundings when you can (like in your own back yard) is key to maintaining control of the situation. If that exact situation has actually been me and at my home, I would have immediately been alerted that something was wrong by the dog going nuts, or not being there at all (killed by BG's?). Then, enough of my yard and entry area are lit so I can see about 30 feet away in all directions, and I'm always scanning wherever I am.
Had I seen anyone in my yard at 1:am, considering the context of a stranger in my yard at 1:am, I would have immediately drawn and covered them, and been prepared to fire if the person(s) didn't do exactly as I say, starting with showing his/their hands.

Carter

marlboroman84
November 22, 2006, 06:56 AM
Gotta agree with carter 100%. It's always hard to say exactly what you'd do in that situation, but if only one of them had a gun on me, I'd draw and go for his gun. Grab it,knock it out of the way,whatever you can then put a few rounds in him. Then, do what you can to get outof his buddies way, but like I said easier said that done.

gvf
November 22, 2006, 07:11 AM
Thanks, very good suggestions, and I guess the only thing to be done with any great chance of success, would be to not let the situation develop to begin with, i.e., lights, scanning with flashlight etc. I have a Surefire, 200 lumen bulb, like carrying your own headlight. I always use it when going from my car towards my door at night, and we do have automatic lights installed.
Thanks and Best
GVF

newerguy
November 22, 2006, 09:44 AM
You've got it now gvf. The old saying, "once you’re in a fight you've already lost", is true. The way to survive a planned robbery like this one is to plan in advance to avoid it. Improve physical security like lighting. Know who's who. If you see bad guys around don't leave your store alone. Do what you can to be able to see your way to your car or whatever before you leave. If possible don't close alone. Consider hiring an armed courier to do your deposits, etc.

But, you can't control everything, and some robberies can't be prevented. In this case, multiple attackers have the drop on you and have weapons drawn. Maybe, maybe you could draw and shoot one before he gets a shot off. You'd be drawing from concealment, which is typically slower than the kind of holsters police use (retention duty holsters), which are even slower than the holsters quick draw entertainers and competitors use. If, instead of going for your gun, you grab one of theirs (sometimes a better idea, if there's only one of them) one of the others may shoot or stab you while your fighting for the gun.

Some people don't like to hear this, but a defensive pistol doesn't mean you're going to avoid crime or being hurt or killed. Sometimes it can make things worse. If you are armed in two or three guys with guns rob you, you are probably better off cooperating, hoping they don't find your gun, and playing the odds that you'll be let go unharmed. Try and get out of there as soon as possible.

Blackwater OPS
November 22, 2006, 10:29 AM
It's pretty much already been said, but for the millionth time, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.

Dwight55
November 24, 2006, 08:39 PM
I have often thought of this situation, . . . caught flat footed and not ready to respond, . . . my plan is simple, . . . fake the old heart attack. It isn't hard for an old geezer like me anyway, . . . it is something they totally are not looking for, . . . and it may cause them to vamoose.

If not, . . . I consider that I am probably toast anyway, . . . so while I'm in the course of turning blue, . . . heavy, choking, breathing, . . . trying to find my nitro tablets, . . . I hope to come up with my .45 and see what kind of hand the bullets deal me from there.

If you read my name in the obits the next day, . . . I guess it didn't work too well.

May God bless,
Dwight

Blackwater OPS
November 24, 2006, 08:52 PM
I'd say that would probably work pretty well if you are old and you can sell it.

pumpkinheaver
November 24, 2006, 11:07 PM
Thats why you have to be on edge at all times, be aware of your surroundings.

Tim Burke
November 25, 2006, 10:43 AM
I'm going to answer before I read the other replies, so I may duplicate a previous point.
This is a very bad situation, however, with the "bad area" of town so close, this should have been anticipated. If you spot them earlier, you have more options, but you need to pay attention and plan ahead.
A motion detector light covering the entrance you routinely use is a wonderful thing... it comes on as you approach, and, if it is on before you approach, it clues you in that there has been recent movement around your door.
A hand held light, to illuminate your approach may be helpful, too.
Once you are surprised by them, you are way behind the curve. You still have options, you just might not have any good ones. My main fear would be that this is a home invasion, and not a robbery. Assuming I have family sleeping inside, my goal is to keep the gang outside. Toward that end, the first thing to do is to move... suddenly, aggressively, in the direction of least resistance, and, if possible, between them. Maybe they won't fire because they are worried about hitting their partner, maybe they will fire, and hit their partner. Moving is not instinctive in this situation. It needs to be trained. If they fire, and they don't hit you, that's a good thing, because it should start to process of notifying the authorities, and puts them under time pressure. If they disengage before they've hurt you, you've won this fight.
At some point you'll want to draw and engage them... the timing of this depends on their location, your skill, and other factors, for instance the proximity of cover. I'd fire at the first reasonable opportunity. Again, it may attract the attention of the neighbors, and directly or indirectly, the authorities, but, more importantly, it changes the dynamic. When you are running, and they are chasing you, there's a predator/prey relationship, and they know what their role is. When you fire back (or even first), the psychology changes.

CraigJS
November 25, 2006, 11:09 AM
A timer on the area lights, you know what time you'll be getting home. The rest of the time you can use motion sensor lighting. If the lights aren't on when you get home, condition orange! (perhaps the BG's have broken the lights) Call the police. If your carrying a gun have it in a pocket with your hand on it or carry it low along your leg. Perhaps a Surefire in your other hand along with your keys ready to open your door.. Biggest thing is if it doesn't look right, don't blindly walk into a trap! You can drive away till the GG's get there. If there is family in the house it would take more planning.

Be safe.

locknid
November 25, 2006, 11:18 AM
With multiple people with more then one gun I would probably cooperate. The only thing is I never ever carry any cash or things of value on me so either they would get ****** and kill me anyways or just move on. If there was multiple people and only one gun then I most likely would pretend to cooperate, pretend I was getting my wallet but really grab my ccw and shoot from the hip, I then would shoot the others because if you have 3 dead bad guys when the cops show up you were justified by the one gun and disparity of force by the 3 people attacking you.

If I was not backed in I would most likely chuck my worthless wallet at them and run and try to find cover as soon as possible. for the most part BG's don't go to the range or even know shooting fundementals so most likely they aren't very good at hitting a moving target. That is just one of those situations where most likely you are screwed no matter what you do.

I agree with the others that you need to be aware of your surroundings, get some motion sensor lights, dog, etc. Furtunately for me the way my covered parking is at my condo it would be very hard for a BG to find a hiding place anywhere near me. Also when I come home from work I am carrying my gun, OC, Baton, handcuffs, etc :)

James K
November 25, 2006, 04:17 PM
There are times when the only place for your gun is in your hand, safety off. This is one of those times.

Jim

tshadow6
November 25, 2006, 04:23 PM
I'm in the habit of scanning my perimeter before I enter/exit my vehicle. If I'd felt something wasn't right, I would have reversed the car and hauled ashphalt. I have motion sensor lights in front of and on the side of my house, plus a mean 50 lb. sheperd/chow dog. That guy was too complacent, not aware of what was going on around him. Plus, I would have fired, strangers attacking me, I believe my life is in danger.

Double Naught Spy
November 25, 2006, 05:14 PM
They're close around you and have guns drawn. Do you feel you would have the only alternative the guy did (he had no CCW), give up the money and hope for the best, and in this case get shot?
Or does anyone feel there may have been a way out, run, draw and shoot your CCW fast etc.
I myself couldn't think of any. I guess I would have turned over the money and gotten shot also. Certainly did make me think though.

The guy was getting shot. According to FBI stats from one of the crime programs on Discovery/TLC/History, in about 13% of the cases, compliant vics still suffer acts of violence which often occur AFTER thing such as money have been surrendered.

I would hazard that in cases such as in the original post where it is believed throughout the event that the event is a robbery, the number of compliant vics injured or killed is even less since those crimes occur in situations where the robbers would prefer stealth as they don't want attention as attention potentially means getting caught.

Few folks here want to admit it, but compliance in a situation where you are outnumbered and outdrawn may be your best strategy so as to placate the BGs until an opportunity presents itself. You don't know they are going to shoot you and for a robbery, odds are hugely in your favor that if you comply, they will not. I still don't think the odds are good enough to believe that abject compliance is the right course of action as obviously your life is being threatened.

It isn't about the money, but your life. So you do what you can to better your position in the situation. That may mean total compliance. It may mean fighting back immediately. It may mean complying so long as it suits your position to do so. It may mean taking flight.

You've got it now gvf. The old saying, "once you’re in a fight you've already lost", is true.

Well, so much for having the proper mindset. It is good to know resistence is futile in a fight since it is pre-ordained that you will lose.:barf:

JohnKSa
November 25, 2006, 07:29 PM
Trying to draw on multiple BG's with guns already pointed at you is suicide.Let me qualify my statements with the comment that since the guy survived, it's hard to say that he made the wrong decision.

HOWEVER, the quote above is a bit overstated, IMO.

In this case, the victim made no attempt to resist, was shot and yet he survived. It's hard for me to imagine that if he had drawn on the BGs, that his chances would have been worse. If they couldn't make a lethal hit on a non-resisting victim, why is it more likely that he'd be dead if he had fought back by drawing his gun?

Even if he had been shot, it seems very illogical to propose that his shooting back would have made the aim of the BGs IMPROVE thus increasing his chances of injury or death. It would be far more reasonable to assume that his resistance/shooting back would make the BGs more likely to MISS or at the least make a bad shot which would DECREASE his chances of serious injury.

The fact is that, statistically speaking, resisting violent crime with a gun is the BEST way to remain uninjured. Even complying carries with it more chance of injury than resisting with a firearm does. It makes perfect sense to me that putting the bad guy in fear of his own life is the best way to ruin his aim.

Please do NOT take my statements to mean that a person should instantly and blindly react by drawing and shooting when confronted by an armed criminal. Each situation is unique and you should assess it and determine your course of action based on the circumstances of the scenario.

In other words, it's not wise to pre-decide your response--there's no single answer that is right for each situation. Sometimes compliance might be the right answer, sometimes armed resistance; you'll have to make your own decision at the time based on the situation.

atblis
November 25, 2006, 10:56 PM
You need to move!

newerguy
November 26, 2006, 06:13 PM
Double Naught, I wasn't suggesting that resistance is always futile. I'm saying that once you are in a fight, have a gun pointed at you, or have your gun out (unless you're a cop, in which case it works different) you are in worse shape than if you weren't in that situation in the first place. If you can avoid trouble, (like not carrying a bag of money into an alley fully of thugs), you're less likely to be hurt or killed than if you the best prepared gunfighter in the whole wild west.

If you're in a fight, even if you have the best training and practice, there's a chance of getting hurt or killed. Even if you survive unhurt, you then get to worry about legal trouble, reprisals, or guilt. I'm just saying that it's better to stay out of trouble, and once you are in trouble, sometimes there is no good way out. I think the guy described in the OP had no way out, but could have, maybe, avoided the situation to begin with.

Dallas Jack
November 29, 2006, 12:13 AM
I think I would most likely take my wallet, throw it to the right and run to the left squealing like a little girl. Till I reached cover. Then turn and draw to defend my position. Least I hope I could do that. When a gun is pointed at you all your attention is on the gun, at least mine is.

Dallas Jack

skeeter1
November 29, 2006, 12:45 AM
+1 to what Saypek said.

I've gotten into the habit of closing the garage door before I get out of the car. I keep a Maglight in it -- maybe I could beat someone upside the head with if I had to.

There was a drug dealer living on my street, but he seems to have left ~4 months ago (jail, maybe?)

It's a rough call if you go out packing to help out a neighbor. A phone call to 911 on a land-line phone is probably best. That will automatically register your address. Cellphones don't usually do that.

Glenn Bartley
December 2, 2006, 03:48 PM
+1 again. Trying to draw on multiple BG's with guns already pointed at you is suicide.

Would that be suicide the same way it would have been had the guy in this story died from his gunshot wounds? Remember he gave up, and gave in, they shot him regardless.

Imagine doing that and you are carrying, then the bad guys decide to search you for more money or jewelry or whatever, and they find your gun. They get hyper and shoot you several times, then steal your gun. No I don't believe for a moment that drawing on multiple assailants would be suicide, in fact it maybe the best thing to do; the trick is you have to make that decision all by yourself if ever in just such a situation; the best you can hope for is to be able to live with it in good health. The other thing is, you can never be 100 percent sure, right now, as to how you will act at any given time in any given situation. I train to take action, and make them react to me, instead of just reacting to them. Sort of get the upper hand if even only for a moment or two. That can be just the edge you need to win; and I look and train to win.

All the best,
Glenn B

Double Naught Spy
December 2, 2006, 04:09 PM
The old saying, "once you’re in a fight you've already lost", is true.

Double Naught, I wasn't suggesting that resistance is always futile. I'm saying that once you are in a fight, have a gun pointed at you, or have your gun out (unless you're a cop, in which case it works different) you are in worse shape than if you weren't in that situation in the first place

You have a strange way with words and values.

Samurai
December 4, 2006, 01:24 PM
I knew a guy once who inadvertently placed his hand on the eye of a stove. He quickly realized that remaining where he was at the time was going to be a painful experience that would surely lead to irreparable injury to himself. (Translation: He burned his hand.) Know what he did? He MOVED HIS HAND!

Bruce Lee said that the best way to block a punch is to not be there when it is thrown. If this is the kind of place that this person lives in (gang wars "spill" over into the neighborhood), then I would move. Move to a more defensible location in a quieter part of town.

Sure, you have the right to defend your home if you want to, but a home like that would NOT be worth defending.

stephen426
December 6, 2006, 07:40 PM
I think you guys are jumping the gun by telling him to move. Would you leave a house and neighborhood you liked because some punks wanted to take over?? That doesn't sound like TFL guys at all. I would organize a neighborhood crime watch and involve the police. Let these jerks know that they are not wanted and that they will be met with "strong" resistance.

One of the most important things in fighting neighborhood crime is having neighbors that give a crap about each other and are willing to do something about it. This may be as simple as reporting suspicious behavior to going out an actually confronting the perpetrators. I'm sure there are neighborhood kids that live there. Do you want them to be victims of these thugs or worse, fall under their influence? I say fight back and bring in the calvary with you.

For the guy who got robbed at gun point at 1 a.m., I say he needs to vary his schedule a bit and have someone waiting for him when he gets home. My mother-in-law got robbed a few months back when she came home from closing their restaurant. These punks stalk their victims and they monitor their comings and goings. I would not be suprised if they even had someone tailing her when she left. If a family member were to be at the door waiting for her and come out a few minutes before she got home, it might be enough to scare them off. It could also lead to hostage situations where the bad guys get inside the house, but that could happen regardless.

I say get a good guard dog, maybe even a pair of them to give you some early warning. Keep your property well lit and trim back trees and shrubbery that will give bad guys a place to hide. Vary your schedule, or better yet, don't bring money home with you. Leave it in a drop safe in the business and take it to the bank the next day. My-mother-in law is very fortunate that she was not seriously injured. My father-in-law has a gun, but he never practices and he might be even more of a liability.

It is your house and your neighborhood. You need to fight for what is yours. I say don't let these jerks win by scaring you off. Most importantly, bring your neighbors in on this and set up a watch. Maybe even conduct "safety evaluations" for your neighbors such as property lighting and concealing shrubbery. Good luck and I hope you have some good news for us in the near future.

gvf
December 7, 2006, 01:53 AM
Great thanks for all the advice. I gave you a number of very violent incidents - and we are concerned here. However, the neighborhood is evolving with this recent "bleed" from gang wars in one area to another a big exception. The usual measure of disintegrration: robbery, rape, abadandoned homes etc. is LESS. No abandonded homes. Property values up over the last couple of years.

But: youth gang activity, including murder - frequently seen in drive-by shootings in a very problematic area away from us but still relatively close - has jumped. It seems recent and devastating. The cops do their best - they are good. But they aren't God, especially with these random incidents. They were hear in a prayer when I called the night I mentioned. I even called up their supervisor after to tell him how fast and professional they were. But cops can't read the future, only the past.

We do have block associations and many have auto lights (and the person downstairs has a guard dog, a Bouivier de Flanders, that has THE most frightening bark I have ever heard from any dog-breed anywhere in my life. A BG would have to be out of his mind to get near it, or even in the back, once this bark is heard. The deepest bark on any dog imaginable - The 45 Colt Auto of dog-barks, and he is BIG.)

So, a very odd situation, sudden danger appearing, then it's back to normal.
Jarring.

Hopefully I'll get the CCW. It's NY, so you need more than random danger of death. But I have other factors that I hope will let them see light on this. And this should give me a bit greater sense of security IF......

If not, there's always: THE DOG!

Best

newerguy
December 7, 2006, 10:17 AM
As far as the carry permit, if you are in NYS, it depends on what county you are in. Some counties have judges that still issue unrestricted permits right off the bat, and some judges require you to jump through a few extra hoops, but eventually issue you a permit (common ones are extra training, staying out of trouble for so many months or years, getting a certain ammout of range time in, etc.)

threegun
December 7, 2006, 11:55 AM
I would probably comply. If they shoot me anyway they better not give me their backs. If they do they better hope the shot incapacitated me.

zzirg
December 7, 2006, 12:14 PM
I would run and draw at the same time running creates a moving target which is harder to hit ,if they have guns drawn they have already used them to manipulate you and you must turn the situation around because the likelyhood of them shooting you is already present. If you are at a stage where your asking yourself what would you do?thats a good thing but you need to get to a stage where you know beforehand what you will do.Gun in the hands of bg's, means no matter what you must draw down on them at some point as soon as possible.... period.(assuming your possitive it's a bad guy).

raggededge
December 7, 2006, 12:32 PM
Here in the fine state of Illinois :rolleyes: we are not permitted to possess firearms on our person on in our vehicles. If I were greeted by multiple armed assailants upon exiting my car, I would have little recourse. :(

buzz_knox
December 7, 2006, 12:45 PM
If this is the kind of place that this person lives in (gang wars "spill" over into the neighborhood), then I would move. Move to a more defensible location in a quieter part of town.

The problem is . . . where is a quieter part of town? Many people don't realize how much crime occurs near the quieter parts, nor do they realize that as long as one remains in/around cities, how close they are to the rough areas.

King_chin0
December 8, 2006, 01:54 AM
I have read a few of the post, I think this is a situation you should just count as a L, because the odds are all against you. "They had guns drawn against you" the keyword there is they, which means multiple barrels are drawn on you, lets say each guy only had a 9mm of 13 rds and no extra mags, thats 39rds altogether, and you might have a .45acp or whatever the hell you got, doesn't matter, they win. Yes, there are multiple incidents that after the surrendering of $ still leads to violent act or death. Most of those cases, there is a story behind it, a guy demanding money would rather go to jail over a robbery, then for murder.

My cousin living in Boston was recently robbed of his cell phone and a few dollars of cash. Three male approached him, asked him whether or not he has any money on him, my cousin forked over the money and the guy took his cell, and just walked away and said thank you. This incident tells me that if you don't try anything "stupid" you have a chance to avoid getting hurt.

Likewise, someone on here said run and take a chance, most likely, by the third or second step, they would've shot you for any sudden movements.

AS far as the Bouivier de Flanders, I don't know too much about them, I do know one thing, although many people dislike pitbulls, but they are one hell of a guard dog, and it will shred your @$$ to pieces.

One of the ways I can think of right now is in a situation as you have mentioned, multiple bad guys. One shall be very close to you with gun drawn, and the other two will be further away, maybe around 6 to 7 feet away. Cause a distraction which doesn't include you in it, like setting off the alarm on your car with the panic button in your hand, when they look over, push the gun's muzzle away from your body, use the closer BG as human shield, and turn his gun on his two buddies, then snap the BG in your arms neck, James Bond style. :D
but to be serious, after causing the diversion, lets say the BG is facing you, push his gun above his left shoulder quickly with both arms, with your right hand on his gun, chop him in the neck hard with your left hand, this will cause him to be disable for about 10-20 seconds most, losing the grip of his gun, now his gun is in your hand(no need to draw your weapon, use what is available and already there) fire shots at his pals, and shoot at the BG you just disabled, run while firing and duck behind your car, after ducking for cover, you have your weapon and the BG's weapon, giving you a better chance of survival, then everything else is up to you, whether you live or die, think smart, and stratigically. And you might have a chance to live and tell the tale

CarlosDJackal
December 10, 2006, 09:22 PM
Live In Yellow!! Get Shot In White!!