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Tayta_Mayne
November 19, 2006, 08:25 PM
I went to bed last night at 12 am. At around 2 am I got up to get a snack. I heard someone reving up a car and looked outside to see what was going on. I started to ealk outside to see if they needed help or if the wanted to use my phone. Well before I could get outside the guy sdtarts walking down the stree, walks behing my van and dosnt come out the other side. I knew what was going on rite then. I opened the dorr and yelled " Hey, what do you think your doing?!? ". The guy takes a step back and looks at me and then steps towards me like he wanted to attack me. I ran out to the middle of the yard and told him he had better run now. He took my advice and started running down the street. I almost went after him but I decided that could get ugly. Come to find out the truck he was in at first was stolen from sown the street. The owner was a retired sherriff. He had been working on the truck, it had no radiator. Haha. So what would you guys have done if this had happened to you? Oh by the way he tried to peel my lock but I topped him after he put two puncture holes above and below the lock, it still works. I am staying up and waiting for him to retaliate. I filed a police report last night too.

kc-griz
November 19, 2006, 08:42 PM
You got lucky. I would NOT have run out to the middle of the yard. You didn't know if he was armed or combative or both. Your best move would have been to phone the police immediately before confronting the BG. It's possible the police would have been able to apprehend one or both perps.

Years ago, I caught 2 kids scoping out cars in my apt complex parking lot at 3am. One appeared to be holding a baseball bat I assumed to be used to break the glass of the car they were going to either steal or vandalize. I yelled out the same thing you did. The kid with the baseball bat looked at me, raise the bat and made a motion that resulted in an all to familiar sound that made me about *hit my pants right there. It was a very short pump 12ga. Suddenly feeling very vulnerable, I dove for the bushes for concealment and that's the last I saw of them. I was very lucky that night too and learned a very valuable lesson.

Blackwater OPS
November 19, 2006, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I think I've said it before, I can protect me and mine best from the inside. Nothing outside is worth your life. Call 911 and let them deal with it, they get paid for the trouble and have less liability in a lawsuit.

marlboroman84
November 19, 2006, 09:30 PM
Yea bad move to run outside. Yell at him from the front door or something while calling the cops, but a car isn't worth getting shot over. Glad you're ok though.:)

cloudcroft
November 19, 2006, 10:14 PM
I agree, bad move running outside, but not because you went out but because you went out WITHOUT a damn gun...you MUST ASSUME the people are armed. Why would you bring nothing to a gunfight?

Run outside if that's your style (it is mine, and I've done it several times) and protect your property...but have the tools needed to deal with things once you get out there...be prepared to engage and destroy.

-- John D.

Pucker
November 19, 2006, 10:21 PM
I had some punks F'n with my truck a couple weeks ago. The alarm makes the keychain beep when it's going off so I went out with a .45 and a flashlight. They hadn't stolen anything but if they had, it wouldn't have been the first time. I will not allow a second.

Hardtarget
November 19, 2006, 11:12 PM
In Oct,2004, punks broke into my truck. Its a F-150 Supercab. They broke the window of the driver side rear door. They carefully popped the surround and stole the radio. Ever priced that little window? Ford LOVES those windows! Try $700. If I get the chance, the next bunch will not be happy with the way their night finishes! I will go out...
Mark. Been two years and I still get mad.

BerettaCougar
November 19, 2006, 11:34 PM
I had some punks F'n with my truck a couple weeks ago. The alarm makes the keychain beep when it's going off so I went out with a .45 and a flashlight. They hadn't stolen anything but if they had, it wouldn't have been the first time. I will not allow a second.

So you would shoot someone over a stolen radio or broken car window?

Why do the mods let crap like this exist? :barf:
So snappy to close a off topic thread but let garbage like this ride.

Pucker
November 19, 2006, 11:47 PM
Couger, build a bridge and get over it. What do you suggest, responding with mace? Let some degenerate disrupt your peace and see how you feel.

BerettaCougar
November 20, 2006, 12:16 AM
If I ever (which I pray I never have to) use a firearm on another human, it will be in SELF defense... or in defense of another person that I know 100% is in danger.

If you live in the 'hood and you drive a car worth two nickels maybe it's time you relocate.

I'm not against citizens arrest, but come on...shooting some kid who wants to take your radio? Call the damn police... Too many keyboard commandos I tell ya.

Blackwater OPS
November 20, 2006, 12:20 AM
What I think is funny is that people post on here their plans to commit 2nd degree murder. If you do shoot them, don't you think the prosecuter will find this? (unless you live in Texas, then shoot away:D )

cloudcroft
November 20, 2006, 12:27 AM
I agree: It's up to the good-guy who is involved in the crime to decide how to react...or not. It's his/her call. Don't second-guess him/her.

Do what YOU want, that's your business, but also let others do as they want.

It's a "Criminals' Lottery" of sorts: They pick the wrong people to assault/rob and they die...probably with a bug-eyed look of shock on their face. They pick other more "humane" people to assault/rob and they live to tell about it, and are able to do it again to someone else.

Keeps them guessing, doesn't it.

As I said, contrary to ignorant but popular belief, criminals' lives aren't worth jack. Good riddance.

The moral of the story is, "Don't mess with people...they can give you back whatever THEY want, "excessive" or not, it's their call."

You start it, they finish it, however they want.

-- John D.

Blackwater OPS
November 20, 2006, 12:29 AM
I have a quote as well...

TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

--Capt Charlie

BerettaCougar
November 20, 2006, 12:33 AM
What do you suggest, responding with mace?

Actually that would not be a bad idea, or maybe a whistle or air horn, wake up the neighbors (these low lives do not like the attention), calls the cops, keep the gun in the holster until your life is on the line.

Complain to your local govt. Try to get the community to ask for more police patrols? more lights on the roads, build a fence around your house, RELOCATE, all are possible answers that may keep someone from dying and you out of prison for the next 20 years for murder.

People like you do not help the movement, and if it were my forum you would of been silenced a long time ago.

Tayta_Mayne
November 20, 2006, 12:51 AM
Here is the thing, When i stuck my head out and yelled out at first i thought he was already in the process of peeling the column. So my reaction was get him out of the van. It just so happened that I stopped him from poppeing my lock though. I got a good clear look at him, I dont live in a nice big house with a nice big lawn like some of you do. My lawn is 15' so I knew he was un-armed. He threw his screwdriver down as if to say " Dont shoot I'm un-armed! ". Only then did I even fully oppen my door, and only once he made a move towards my house did I advance. I'm not going to let some wacko get me and get inside my house. You guys can say keyboard cammondo as much as you want. But until you've had thousands of dollars stole from you and then catch someone in the process of stealing thousands more with only maybe 2 seconds to respond before they peel out in your car while giving you the finger I'd suggest you really think about what you would do. i posted this so all of you might think about it incase if anything happens to you like this. I would have reacted differently if I knew what was happening. But as i stated before I got up to get a snack, and i dont carry a pistol on me on my way to my kitchen. By the way the cops truck that the guy left out front of my house stated rite in front of two other cops if he would of had a chance he would have let the undertaker decide on how to treat this guy.

Now let me clear this up. It was one guy. I got a good look at him after getting him to stop what he was doing. He was un-armed. Only then did I advance 5 feet off of my porch, after shutting my loved ones inside the house. You do not always need a gun. This guy looked like he thought he was about to die when I advanced. Then I yealled " You better f#@$ing run rite now! ", which he did. I did not give chase. I let him go. The funny thing is all of this happened while I had a mouthfull of frosted cookie, pink frosted cookie in hand! All I needed to run this guy off was an intimadating yell and a cookie. You just have to use your head. If he would have pulled a weapon I would have locked him out darted to the hall and grabbed my 12 gauge. And remember this all happened within a 15 second time span. If I would have waited 5 more seconds to yell he would have been in my van and starting it up. I am glad that I stopped him when I did.

Tayta_Mayne
November 20, 2006, 12:55 AM
Couger, I yelled loud and I yelled the whole time I was outside. No one so much as looked outside. not everyone lives in a good area. And I honestly take that type of response in a condesending way. I do not have the money to just pick up and move. Also there is not enough time to do all that. I was un-armed completely. No mace no whistle. And i still stopped him. Just think about the average joe who dosnt have a lot of things in life. If that van got stolen and crashed I would be out so much that I would be feeling its loss for years to come.

Also crime is every where man. Not just in the "hood".

BerettaCougar
November 20, 2006, 01:23 AM
tayta, most of my comments were not geared towards you.
For the most part they were aimed at some of these buffoons.

You acted more or less the way I probably would of.

When i'm home I usually am not packing, but never too far away. from a gun.
12 gauge in the bedroom with 8 slugs, and always atleast one handgun loaded either on me or near me.

Please do not take my comments as insults whatsoever... I know a stolen auto is a huge problem but you will live on, and you will more than likely stay out of prison for killing a person the media will more than likely try to portray as a victim of society and you know all the other crap that comes with that.

Not only the legal issues, think about the emotions involved, I don't know about you but killing someone would devastate me if it was over a damned radio!!!!

I know society owes nothing to these scumbags, and you sure as hell owe them nothing, you worked for yours and from what I gather your a family man, which means you're working for a family. We are humans, all of us, even the slug that is breaking in your car. In recent times I bought an air horn it's louder than hell... a lot louder than a human scream, I keep it right next to the door... incase I fall victim to the same.

I know you mean nothing but good in your post.

BerettaCougar
November 20, 2006, 01:29 AM
http://safetycentral.com/911pesasiair.html

This air horn is sort of like the one I have.

IT IS LOUD!

The one I linked you to has a smaller can than mine, so the sound may not last as long.
Back when I tested mine it lasted for about 35 seconds (had it blasting into a pillow) you can hear it start loose power after about 20 seconds.

Tayta_Mayne
November 20, 2006, 01:40 AM
Thank you Couger. I just get defenseve over my area. I love this town, but it is going downhill. I also feel if i move, I've let them win. I do plan on moving to Florida soon though, but for other reasons. But really, you are using this post in a good manner. It seems as though you have thought about this type of problem before. I never let it escape my head that it could happen, or worse. My guns were within 12 feet. But I had so many thoughts in my head at the time, " wake everyone up, grab a gun, yell at him, run out there, call the police, get other peoples attention, ect. ect. ". But the truth is i did what felt natural. If I would have waited any longer he would have been in my van. He already punctured the metal arround the lock and was about to pop it out when I yelled. It is an older chevy so within 3 seconds of being inside he would have been gone. And truth be told I thought he was inside the van when I first yelled. So imagine the call to 911, " Umm yeah theres this guy in my van on the street, ok so hes down the street now, oh nevermind he's gone now". And this doubles as my work van too. Ladders paint supplies some christmas gifts, oh and two little giant ladder systems. Those little giants are expensive too. I know its material, but that my lively hood. I'm glad it worked out the way it did though. I just have two holes in my door now.

skeeter1
November 20, 2006, 02:04 AM
Yeah, I think I've said it before, I can protect me and mine best from the inside. Nothing outside is worth your life. Call 911 and let them deal with it, they get paid for the trouble and have less liability in a lawsuit.


For whatever reason, in my neighborhood, many people have their garages so full of crap that there's no room for a car inside. I thought that's what a garage was for. Silly me. My car goes in the garage every night.

As for going outside after a BG, not me. That's what a call to 911 is for. Break into my house, and the rules change entirely.

Pucker
November 20, 2006, 02:12 AM
I said I would not allow my truck to be broken into again. I never said I would murder a punk in cold blood.

Axion
November 20, 2006, 03:40 AM
People like you do not help the movement, and if it were my forum you would of been silenced a long time ago.

I agree. People talking about how they would shoot someone for trying to steal their car only lends credibility to the anti-guns.

Edison Carter
November 20, 2006, 06:16 AM
When you draw down on a punk and he stupidly raises a tire iron and advances on you.... how is it again you explain to the police and DA that you were SAFE in your house, and and you deliberately put yourself in the position where you had to shoot him?

Second degree murder, I think.

I won't cry for him.... I won't cry for YOU, either.

EC

Daves-got-guns
November 20, 2006, 08:55 AM
i had a missed-incident thats in the same catagory as this alooong time ago. I was 18 and i had a friend who was a girl, 16 down the street and she had her little sisters there too. It was 4 in the morning and her mom knows how to pick a b/f, bar-hopping type. Well she tried to call my cell to get me down there to save her ass cauuse this winner-in-life was tryin to break into the house and she didnt know if he was high on drugs or just wanted to case the place since he had already stolen her 13 year old sisters coin collection worth like 500 bones i beleive. I didnt get the call, and i didnt have buckshot for my shotgun, so i bought 10 rounds just in case he decides to come back. Idk what i would have done if it woulda came down to me confronting him but i think the laws more leaneant to people who have to use leathal force on a bg like this. I wouldnt want to shoot somebody but the barrel of a 12 is a pretty damn good detorant if the shtf. Also a few weeks later he met up with some of the moms "friends" and the put him in the hospital about a block away from their house, so 2 blocks away from mine in a local church parking lot i beleive, guess sometimes crime don't pay afterall!

Daves-got-guns
November 20, 2006, 09:21 AM
thats also another big point for justifying lethal force, drugs. Thats one thing nobodys really tooken into account here, seeing that alot of malicious people are high on some sort of substance and you don't know what their gonna do. Also i understand why these fellars get riled up, and their trigger fingers get "itchy", you might feel somebody has done you wrong, or just doesn't have respect for you and your well-being and i've felt that way, but it still doesnt justify laying lead into somebody. Maybe they don't respect your right to co-exist, but so what? this country isnt exactly free and alotta times the victims do become the criminals, so you might as well just let it go, take your rage out on the gun range on the bg target, it'll help.

threefivesevenmag
November 20, 2006, 09:25 AM
Everyone can have an opinion on how this particular situation went down.

It's important when re-telling events that everything is clearly described, as people make conclusions rather quickly. I believe once other details were revealed it was much easier to understand the poster's situation.

The important thing here is: nobody was hurt. Not the vehicle owner, or the sheriff who's truck was stolen.

Every situation is different, and it's not always tactically sound to just walk out in the open in most instances. Here, it seems to have been evaluated and the action did not cause a negative re-action.

Hopefully you can get some good insurance on your property and valuables. I would be very upset if my car was stolen, but I know my insurance would cover it. Hopefully this is a one time situation for you and everyday life continues uneventful and happy.

Thanks for the story, I think it's a good learning from piece.

Tayta_Mayne
November 21, 2006, 02:02 AM
One more thing i would like to point out. When I first saw the truck that this guy stole, as he was trying to get it started up. I thought to myself, I know that truck from somewhere. So in my head at first it was a friendly vehicle. Just thought I'd point that out because if I had walked out to the truck with him still inside ( I wouldn't have but if I would have ) things could have went very bad.

Oh and sorry the first post was missing details I was on my way to work and I just wanted to see what you guys thought when I got home.

Pucker
November 21, 2006, 02:30 AM
I agree, bad move running outside, but not because you went out but because you went out WITHOUT a damn gun...you MUST ASSUME the people are armed. Why would you bring nothing to a gunfight?

Run outside if that's your style (it is mine, and I've done it several times) and protect your property...but have the tools needed to deal with things once you get out there...be prepared to engage and destroy.

I had some punks F'n with my truck a couple weeks ago. The alarm makes the keychain beep when it's going off so I went out with a .45 and a flashlight. They hadn't stolen anything but if they had, it wouldn't have been the first time. I will not allow a second.

Cloudcroft expresses practially the exact same sentiment I do yet somehow some of you read the intent to murder in my post. You furthermore advocate using a flippin HORN to possibly scare off any potentially armed bg's. (Or RELOCATE. Your favorite bolded idea is to turn tail and run away.) I cannot believe that you are reasonable.

You're here on a site deticated to the art of defending one's life and livelyhood via these means. I don't advocate commiting gross acts of violence just to get my rocks off, I only have to desire to keep me & mine left the hell alone. There are those that are equally determined to go home with things that don't belong to them. Sometimes (albeit rarely) people don't take to being 'shooed off' and might get the idea in their head that I'll only hide in my house or will only honk a GD horn at them. Some of them might have a weapon. Some of them might be willing to use it.

Stay in your houses. Honk your horns. Relocate. :barf:

gvf
November 21, 2006, 02:32 AM
I think these types of posts are excellent, when someone brings up a situation, gives their instintive reaction, and then many give feedback, whether it's their own similar experiences, legal info, whatever. It immediatley, makes one think of what you would do in such and such a predicament. Then, if it happens to us, we've gone through it a bit already, and may behave less out of panic, or spilt second impulse. Very valuable!

stephen426
November 21, 2006, 03:30 AM
Tayta,
Glad that you stopped the guy before you got burglerized. It must have been that pink cookie you had in your hand. I'm also glad you didn't get hurt or worse. You never know who you are dealing with. I would rather grab a gun and have it on me in case the guy produces a weapon. Either that or call the police and wait.

Someone broke into my brother-in-law's truck the other day. As he and a buddy were walking to the truck, his buddy noticed thatt he truck was shaking. They got there just as some guy was getting out with some of his tools. Lucky a cop happened to be in the area to grabbed him.


BerettaCouger and Edison Carter,
I think you guys are over-reacting to Pucker's statement. I'm not for shooting people over property, but I also believe that we have a right to protect our property. If someone were breaking into my car, I sure as heck would have a gun in one hand and a cell phone in the other. I'm not going to shoot the guy if he leaves, but if he comes towards me or reaches for a weapon, I will defend myself. I usually carry pepper spray when I carry my gun so I would probably spray him and wait for the cops. I work hard for my stuff and I'm not just going to sit back and let someone take it. :barf:

marapets
November 21, 2006, 06:40 AM
a simular thing happend to me a while ago im a marine i had just finished a tour of Iraq and i wasnt sleeping all that well i ws in my back room watching a dvd and i heard these guys looked out the window saw these guys breaking into my neighbours car across the road got my old dads revolver walked outside shouted a warning as they turned and ran was about to shoot but thought hold on im a marine im going to kill this guy and decided it wasnt really worth it. I mean it wasnt even my car. so just alled 911 and told my neigbour and stuff. but it was real close im glad i diddnt shoot him in a way im surprised i didnt i mean i was only back from iraq for like a week!!!

stephen426
November 22, 2006, 11:16 AM
marapets,

Welcome to the forum and welcome back from Iraq. Also, thank you for your service to our country. Glad you made it back safe and sound.

I sure it will take a while to adjust to not being in a war zone. Hesitation over there could mean your life or your buddy's lives. Being too quick on the trigger here may lead to criminal prosecution. I'm glad you were calm enough make the right decision.

Maybe the best thing to do is to call the police and your neighbor (maybe call the neighbor first), instead of going out to confront the bad guys. Had they been armed, you could have gotten into a firefight over someone elses property. Its good to look out for your neighbors, but we shouldn't play Dirty Harry.

Inspectorlee
November 22, 2006, 12:10 PM
I just found this thread so I apologize for the late reply. In Racine, WI something similar happened a few months ago and the verdict came in this week.

http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=9058

Some details that aren't listed at the link: White claimed self-defense because he said that one of the teenagers lifted a tire iron in a threatening manner.

Even after hearing about the incident I'm conflicted on where I stand since obviously, I wasn't there and don't have all the details of the circumstances at the moment he fired. Just some food for thought I guess.

BerettaCougar
November 22, 2006, 09:59 PM
Cloudcroft expresses practially the exact same sentiment I do yet somehow some of you read the intent to murder in my post. You furthermore advocate using a flippin HORN to possibly scare off any potentially armed bg's. (Or RELOCATE. Your favorite bolded idea is to turn tail and run away.) I cannot believe that you are reasonable.

You're here on a site deticated to the art of defending one's life and livelyhood via these means. I don't advocate commiting gross acts of violence just to get my rocks off, I only have to desire to keep me & mine left the hell alone. There are those that are equally determined to go home with things that don't belong to them. Sometimes (albeit rarely) people don't take to being 'shooed off' and might get the idea in their head that I'll only hide in my house or will only honk a GD horn at them. Some of them might have a weapon. Some of them might be willing to use it.

Stay in your houses. Honk your horns. Relocate.

Pucker, tell me when did I advocate running away?
I do have a few horns, one in my car and two in my house (one by the front door and one by the rear glass sliding door).

As previously noted I almost always have a firearm on or near me.

People like you think that because you have a gun that you are somehow not able to get shot or stabbed or ganged up on/ambushed.

If I look outside for whatever reason an see someone in my car, you think i'm going to go outside with a gun drawn and expect the person to just give up? That outcome is possible, sometimes people (especially of this caliber) are on drugs, no fear and if the person has a knife or a gun? I don't know about you but I do NOT want to be in a shoot out, especially one in a neighborhood with kids and other people in near by houses. Don't get me wrong I will not just look away, I will have my gun in hand, and I will either call the police myself or have someone else call the police from the house. Nothing in my car (including the car itself) is worth a human life to me (including the life of the crook). I'd honk the horn, and yell that i'm calling the police. If the BG makes a move towards me I'd open fire. If he takes off, i'm not going after him.

cloudcroft
November 23, 2006, 12:32 AM
marapets,

It took me at least a whole year after I got back from the RVN to understand that killing people over HERE wasn't what you do now. Incidents like rude people cutting me off on the freeway almost came to someone getting killed...and I wouldn't have lost any sleep if it had, I assure you.

But 36 years later, I still believe -- and may I say contrary to ignorant but popular belief -- violence really DOES solve problems, lots of them.

And for people like criminals, violence is the only language they understand.

It would behoove one to become conversant in said language.

-- John D.

skeeter1
November 23, 2006, 02:19 PM
I had an incident a few years ago where a couple of guys were in car unfamiliar to me parked in front of my house, right under a streetlight (not too bright, eh?) I dropped my .38 into my pocket and called 911. Within 5 minutes, two cop cars came and blocked in their vehicle.

I don't know what their intentions were, but I have a feeling they weren't good. At the time I owned a fairly-expensive motorcycle, and have a hunch that was what they may have been after.

Another tip -- If you own a newer car, chances are it has a key-fob for locking/unlocking the doors. Mine also has a "panic button" that will set off the horn and flashing lights for two-three minutes. Even if your car is in the garage, that might be enough to let the BGs know that you're aware of their presence.

Edward429451
November 23, 2006, 03:41 PM
You guys are beating up on a guy for saying he'd defend his truck? I bet his livleyhood is on that truck. It might sound bad on paper but my god, shall we all get on here and announce to the world that if someone broke in my source of income that I'd stand in the doorway and blow a whistle? Suddenly break ins would go up when it got around that people will not defend against thievery.

That wouldn't be being a good ambassador to the community either, would it? To say that you're a gun owner but wouldn't use it except except except except? Guns are deadly instruments, generally only used to directly protect life. Livelyhood = life too. Just ask any working man. A certain amount of posturing is necessary to maintain civil society or else anarchy would run rampant. Goverment would rape you of all your rights. The reason that things are not as bad as they could be in this country is because of the promise of resistance. Slows them down and makes them think twice. Deterrance.

Men are not shot for stealing livelyhoods, but that livelyhoods be not stolen.

Would I shoot a guy for breaking into my truck? Hmmm. Maybe maybe not.;)

Jager1
November 23, 2006, 04:53 PM
You just have to use your head.

Don't be upset when people here tell you that your actions, given the circumstances, were not the best. Because they weren't.

You did not know if the perpetrator was armed, had an accomplice or what their true intentions were. There were too many variables that you failed to explore before placing yourself in a potentially dangerous situation (primarily, failing to provide yourself with enough time to assess the situation, exposing yourself needlessly, being unarmed and failing to notify authorities to reduce response time to increase the chance of apprehension and in the event someone got hurt - I also disagree with your supposition that your vehicle would have been gone "in three seconds" once the perpetrator would have entered your vehicle, but if so, read my following advice).

I would suggest a vehicle alarm as a possible deterrent and early warning system as you are dependent upon your vehicle for your livelihood. Install a kill switch as they are relatively inexpensive. Purchase a length of chain that will wrap through your seat mounts and through the steering wheel around more than one radial spoke and secure with a decent padlock. Thieves do not like work and the harder you make it for them to steal your property, the less likely they are to attempt it. They don't like noise either. Making them risk some is a deterrent in addition to the increased chance it will alert you to their illicit activities.

Harden the target.

That being said, I was not there. Without the benefit of knowing what you know, little beyond what I might have offered above would be responsible commentary (no one size fits all advice). Still, much of your rebuttal to those offering criticism and advice amounts to you attempting to rationalize your actions - that you must know in hindsight were less than optimal.

You are lucky and now may benefit from this experience and will hopefully be better prepared should you be faced with a similar experience in the future.

No decision is a bad one in the moment that you make it as it is based upon your best thinking in the moment that you make it.

It is the benefit of hindsight that allows a person to realize that a decision was based upon defective thinking and that they MUST change their thinking.

Shooting the messenger only reduces the amount of potential intelligence available. ;)

brolin_1911a1
November 23, 2006, 05:36 PM
I don't think anyone can really second-guess tayta's reaction. It worked. That's what counts.

As for the Racine, WI incident that Inspector Lee posted the link to, I noticed in the news stories that all three of the thieves the defendant shot had been shot in the back. One? Okay, maybe he was attacking and turned around as the defendant fired. But all three shot from back to front? That practically screams "running away." I can't think of any state where the law allows you to shoot once the other party has ended or indicated the desire to end the conflict by fleeing or attempting to flee.

I live in Missouri. The law here specifically states that deadly force is not authorized merely for protection of property no matter how essential that property may be to one's livelihood. Do I agree with that limitation? As the victim of burglars, I have to say I do not. Slow death is too good for those who violate other people and, believe me, once burgled you feel violated. But the law says that's not allowed. The law also says that you are not justified in using deadly force if you're guilty of placing yourself in a situation where a "reasonable" person could foresee that the use of deadly force to protect oneself would become necessary. So going outside to confront the thief may not be the wisest move to make. But, ultimately, even stupid ideas aren't stupid if they work and in this case, it worked. That's all that matters in the end.

King_chin0
November 24, 2006, 05:11 AM
I'm no expert, but my theory is, if the BG is trying to steal a car in the middle of the night, obviously they don't want to be seen. If they were seen either they are going to run and try to get out of there as soon as possible, or they are going to try to hurt you. Most likely they will not want to hurt you, because the chances of them being hurt or caught is increased. A BG knows their limits, and anyone in the right mind set wouldn't want to put their life in harms way, which means catching a BG has only two pathes. One, they run, you get lucky, or unluckily your car is stolen. Second, they bad guy approaches you and tries to harm you, in this case, it is pure self defense, and disarming the BG is the best way possible to handle a situation. Laws now will charge the victim with numerous charges if you are not dying from the injuries caused by the BG, which is kind of stupid in my opinion, but also keeps people from just firing over petty things. The worst situation you can really be in is anyone getting hurt. A car or any objects are replaceble, but a life can never be replaced.

Tayta_Mayne
November 26, 2006, 02:36 AM
Jager, I really dont think you know what you are talking about. Tell me where i was attempting anything other than to better explain the situation. Oh and by the way my van a 1994 chevy 25, once your in the van your gone. You dont even have to do anything other than stick that screw driver in the ignition and twist. My old van a 1987 chevy 25, all you had to do was twist the outside of the ignition ring without a key or anything and it would start up. I suggest before you get online and start bashing people for things that you obviously know nothing about you either A. Deal with this type of thing all the time or B. keep your mouth shut. I really dont appreciate the way that you try to knock my credibility. On a story about me and my property. And dont spout of about hiendsight. I know how I reacted, and I told the story as it happened. I stated that I might do things deferently in hiendsight. I also believe I used the words looking back on or something of that nature. So thank you for your very very helpful response.

Jager1
November 27, 2006, 12:38 AM
I know exactly what I am talking about. You were the one that came here asking for an analysis of your actions in hindsight. Which a reasonable individual would determine just might contain some criticism(s).

I know that having my vehicle stolen would be a financial loss that would not be pleasant. Thus, I take actions to mitigate such a possibility, some of which I outlined above. A basic vehicle alarm, kill switch and a length of chain with a padlock costs less than $150. If the vehicle in question is at the center of your "livelihood" and you can't afford even that little protection, then you probably ought not to be operating a motor vehicle.

When I first read this thread, I told myself that I would refrain from dissecting your comments point-by-point to demonstrate the numerous things that you did wrong that could have very possibly gotten you severely injured or dead. I even alluded to this when I commented that I was not there, and restricted myself to only offering those few critical points where you failed to think rationally and constructive criticism.

I also tried to politely tell you that your apparent disregard for others comments here wasn't likely to win you any allies. That kind of arrogance, when it comes to me, is going to get you exactly what you asked for.

What would I have done? And what did you do wrong? Correct?

I opened the dorr and yelled " Hey, what do you think your doing?!? ".

First off, I wouldn't have offered knowledge of my presence to someone who appeared to be in the process of committing a crime that did not threaten someones life. I would have taken the opportunity to ARM MYSELF, ascertain if the person was operating alone, obtained a description, tried to determine if they were armed and notified the police to start their response time ticking.

I ran out to the middle of the yard and told him he had better run now.

I wouldn't have left a position where I enjoyed being undetected and at least concealment if not outright cover, this exposing myself to direct fire or assault.

My lawn is 15' so I knew he was un-armed.

No, you didn't. And saying so only makes it all the more stupid. You placed yourself in the path of potential direct fire if the perpetrator was armed. Advancing as such, unarmed, makes you a potential Darwin candidate, not someone to be lauded for bravery.

Only then did I even fully oppen my door, and only once he made a move towards my house did I advance. I'm not going to let some wacko get me and get inside my house.

Not alive, you weren't. Had he been armed, you were positively no obstacle between him and entrance to your home if that were his intent.

Only then did I advance 5 feet off of my porch, after shutting my loved ones inside the house.

Which infers that you locked yourself out? How were you going to access those firearms (12 feet away you claimed) that you were now some 17-20 feet away from now through a locked door. In fact, you likely only closed the door, which also offered no barrier whatsoever to a potentially armed and marauding intruder.

If he would have pulled a weapon I would have locked him out darted to the hall and grabbed my 12 gauge.

Please. Spare me the agony here. You would have been capped outright were that his intention.

I yelled loud and I yelled the whole time I was outside. No one so much as looked outside.

Great, no witnesses. Sleeping family inside behind an unlocked door. Great job. Are we beginning to see a failed strategy bare it's potential flaws?

If that van got stolen and crashed I would be out so much that I would be feeling its loss for years to come.

Then do something to protect it. Defective thinking could have gotten you killed during this episode and the best you have in countering my advice is that I don't know what to do to protect my vehicles because I have no experience dealing with such encounters? Hmmm. I'd say my suggestions above illustrate quite the contrary, actually.

So much so, that I'm not the idiot running out into my front yard in the middle of the night, cookie in hand, confronting an unknown number of suspects, leaving my family vulnerable, not knowing if the suspect(s) are armed attempting to confront them to save a POS van with some tools in it. :rolleyes:

Yeah. Kill the messenger.

Works every time. ;)

King_chin0
November 27, 2006, 01:10 AM
I would have to agree with jager here, but jager, personal attacks aren't called for. No biggie here, we are all trying to help each other and learn from one another. Jager, we know you meant good, yes everyone makes mistakes. Tayta_Mayne, I know you will be offended, but don't go back and forth, its not worth either one of your time. I'm sure Jager feels angry because a fellow TFL member was thinking rashly, and could've gotten themselves hurt. We all don't want to see that correct? But running out unarmed, and assuming the BG was unarm is very unthoughtful. The first thing anyone should keep in mind, just like a Gun Safety rule is, "a BG is always armed, until they are apprehended." "A BG is always a potential harm until taken down." You should keep those things in mind Tayta_Mayne, because it would just safe your life and your families' lives. I wouldn't have walked out there unarmed, you say that your firearm is about maximum 20 feet away, it wouldn't have took you five seconds to run there, grab it and back, and in five seconds, I don't think the guy could've done much, but maybe settle himself. But like Jager says, protect your vechicle buddy, and be safe :)

P.S. so do you have a 87 Chevy 25 or a 94 chevy 25???

oldbillthundercheif
November 27, 2006, 01:20 AM
My car is broken into at least two or three times a year and I catch people trying to mess with it all the time. My standard response is to flip on the floodlights while screaming obscenities out the window with the phone in one hand calling the cops and a 1911 in the other. I keep the lights off inside so they can't see where I am in the house quite as easily.

A car is not worth shooting someone over. Well... most cars, anyway. If I ever run across the so-and-so that stole my white '89 Cadillac Fleetwood-Brougham my attitude about this may change:D.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/zarganuts/Caddy.jpg

Jager1
November 27, 2006, 01:15 PM
King_chin0,

I agree that ad hominem attacks, insults and the like do little to add to the discussion. I believe my initial response was in the correct vein and was certainly well-intentioned.

However, when someone tells me that I "don't know what I am talking about", I can assure you that I'm not the type of fellow that will stand idly by without addressing such assertions. Since 'diplomacy' seems to be lost on some people, sometimes you just have to toss tact into the gutter and tell them what you really think. Especially when they are asking for specific commentary regarding their actions.

My primary daily driver is a 1984 Chevy two door coupe. My other vehicles are a 1984 full size Chevy Blazer and a 1989 2 door import (all three of which suffer high theft rates due to the ease with which it can be accomplished).

And someone with all the sense to confront a thief (or thieves) at 2 AM with a cookie in hand because they have effectively done NOTHING to mitigate the likelihood of their vehicle (one they admit is critical to their families financial security) being stolen which fostered a level of desperation that apparently led to such actions sees fit to claim I don't know what I'm talking about? When I have seen fit to outfit my old dilapidated vehicles with the aforementioned deterrents and they have not? With my background in vehicle repossession that has made me quite knowledgeable on what measures people have taken that made it difficult or impossible to recover various models of transportation? With my also being a reformed car thief (never caught, never prosecuted) and having worked in the security industry? With my having grown up between Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, lived in Dallas - Ft. Worth and now Phoenix, the car theft capital of the USA where I had to prevent my personal vehicles from be stolen?

There is a distinct difference between being proactive and being reactive when faced with the issue of possible car thieves. I already know which one is more likely to get me injured or killed versus which one will significantly reduce that risk. I've made my choice through actions best described as due diligence and I have not had a vehicle stolen (yet). Seems some people here have and were saluted in the process (perhaps figuratively). Yet they have done nothing to truly avoid such a reoccurence. Well, a close friend once told me that you can't save people from themselves. Pardon me for for being stupid enough to believe, after being asked for commentary regarding someones actions, that they actually might appreciate some constructive insight and for being just a tad bit upset at being insulted for having done so.

Tayta_Mayne,

I sense you don't want a critique. You want kudos for charging at someone with a frosted cookie. You will not get that from me.

My last word on the topic:

Harden the target or sharpen your tongue on others when you don't. I don't care which at this point. Continue to play the eternal victim (Not enough drama? Then manufacture some!) and pray bad guys will leave you and your property alone. Whatever. My training and experience has taught me to expect differently. So, with that being said, I'll leave you to your tactics and devices.

I wish you the best of luck.

BillCA
November 27, 2006, 02:35 PM
Let's all take a deep breath and take another look at the situtaion.

Tayta_Mayne did okay - he interrupted a crime and no one got hurt. Good job T_M! Were there technical flaws in his tactics? Sure. Luck was on his side (maybe it was that pink cookie :D), but next time may be quite different. Not everyone keeps a weapon near at hand at Oh-dark-thirty when they're snacking in the kitchen or visting the head.

As to keyboard commandos and such...
Comments were made about shooting someone for stealing a radio or perhaps even a car. Let's put this in perspective.

You don't shoot someone for stealing your car radio, the tools in your back yard shed or the generator in your garage.

You DO, however order them to leave or to surrender (until authorities arrive). IF, at that point, they refuse to do either AND threaten you with force you are NOT shooting them over property, but to defend yourself.

markj
November 27, 2006, 04:45 PM
My nephews car was broken into for the 5th time over the weekend, in front of their house no less. No one heard a thing. Slick operators to be sure. Would I shoot them? dont know, but I did advise my nephew to duct tape some razors to the radio this time, maybe he can then follow the blood trail ? :)

It would take a lot to get me to shoot any one. Lived here for 50 years without having to do so so far....I do have a lot of guns too.

King_chin0
November 27, 2006, 04:53 PM
Jager, I definately see where you are coming from buddy. I don't doubt anyone or under estimate their skills and knowledge. I say T_M ran out there because it was his first instinct to prevent someone from taking something he workeds hard for.

BillCA,

We all have to agree on those two points you have said, very similar to what I have said.

As to Tactics and device as Jager has mentioned, to me, it means thinking clearly, rationally, and quickly. As for just running out on your lawn, with no protection, but a cookie to offer is not tactics at all :D , but basic human instincts of modern day human. Just like A thousand years ago, cave man vs. beast. The first thought of the Caveman is to protect themselves, and estimate whether the possibility of them winning the fight and surviving. So if they estimate the threat to be minimal, they will try to scare off the beast with a weapon, and not trying to feed them a cookie lol jk:D. If threat was too high, they will try to avoid being detected (Stay your A$$ in the house) or run. This all comes down to basic psychology of Fight or Flight. At this point, T_M was sure he can cut and disarm the BG with a cookie, like a Martial Arts Chef, so he decides to fight, while the BG, seeing a man confronting them, eating a cookie with a glass of milk, screaming at the top of his lungs either looked so dorky that he had to run off, tell someone so they can laugh with them, or might look intimidating, because a guy is confronting you like Michael Jackson to his little Wonderland Kids, is quit a scary thought. Maybe the BG had a "bad childhood experience" :D

Anyhow, T_M, just definately consider yourself lucky that the BG didn't take off with your Van and your cookie. Hope there will be no next time, but in case there is, think rationally, and never ever approach a BG with potential harm without any protection or cover for yourself. When it comes to tactics and training, the main point is survival

It would take a lot to get me to shoot any one. Lived here for 50 years without having to do so so far....I do have a lot of guns too.

Markj, lets hope to keep it that way, if you know what I mean. haha. We never want to be in a situation where our life is in danger and have to draw a weapon. Yes, guns are made to kill, and defend. But most of us here, if not all, are gun lovers and collecors, we would hate to have to shoot someone with our precious toys :D

Tayta_Mayne
November 28, 2006, 02:02 AM
Ok, I did not mean to come off rude. I just hate when any thread on here goes the way this one did. I posted this so people could play this out in thier heads and think about what would be the best way to solve this problem if it happens to them.

Jager, I just felt as though you were not giving constructive criticism, more like picking apart my post with this Im smarter than you atittude to attack my cerdibilty. As far as me posting to cover my butt about things. Look at my first post compared to my others. Look how many spelling mistakes there are. It was rushed. I was on my way to work. And I was not looking for a pat on the back for any of my actions. I simply stated what I did and what worked for me. I am glad it did. And I did wake up my family with the yells they just didnt come running to my rescue. I did lock my door. Actually I didnt have to it was locked already, I just pulled it shut. I think it was the fight or flight instinct that made me do what I did. I sated before I did what felt natural at that point in time. I also did not mean you dont know what your talking about period. I meant you didnt know what you were talking about with all the details of my post. You've never been in my house, or on my block, or stole a 94' chevy 25. I have stated before that I was not a good person for a long time. But I grew up and I got smarter. And yeah as far as the Darwin theory goes, I did go a little animalistic. But it worked for me on that night. All I wanted from this thread was a good topic. I did not want your aproval, nore do I feel i need it. I and only I know what was going through my head that night and what really happened that night. All I was doing was attempting to retell what happened. But reamember it was late I was hungry unarmed and groggy. If I would have been attacked theres not much i could have done. But i did what i did, and it just so happened to work on that night. I meant you no offense I am just a little on egde lately buddy.

I just found out that a really close friend of mine has terminal cancer. So please all of you keep him in your prayers. I know he'd do the same for you and yours.

cloudcroft
November 28, 2006, 12:29 PM
BillCA,

We do whatever we want to do. The guy on the scene of the incident is the one who makes the call, not anyone else.

If criminals -- in this case thieves stealing one's property -- knew beforehand who would shoot and who would not to protect "only property," they'd pick places like yours or poster markj's to rob.

I know I would.

Maybe that's because I look at crime from the criminal's perspective, since I was one myself many years ago.

But it's the rest of us (maybe the few I guess), who SURE WOULD shoot that criminals are much more concerned about. In fact, we, the few, even help people like you who wouldn't shoot to protect property, as we help people who don't even carry -- mostly ignorant and naive liberals of course but also many so-called "gun owners" such as yourself -- because criminals don't really know who will or will not, if their intended victim is one of "our group" or not.

Which really seems a shame, frankly, since those who don't even carry or who wouldn't shoot should fend for themselves out there in the REAL world on their unarmed/misinformed/naive own, and not benefit from that general deterrent the rest of us "more violent mindset people" help make.

Well, we don't live in Perfect, do we.

-- John D.

oldbillthundercheif
November 28, 2006, 01:34 PM
"Which really seems a shame, frankly, since those who don't even carry or who wouldn't shoot should fend for themselves out there in the REAL world on their unarmed/misinformed/naive own, and not benefit from that general deterrent the rest of us "more violent mindset people" help make."

Gunkid?

Once a criminal, always a criminal, I guess...

BillCA
November 28, 2006, 03:24 PM
King,

We all have to agree on those two points you have said, very similar to what I have said.

Yes it is. However I thought it was worth pointing out explicitly, not only for the benefit of new members but any visitors/trolls/etc to the site.

A BG breaking into my vehicle might see me with a gun in hand, but the sight of an angry, pudgy fifty-something in his BVD's might be more frightening than the gun. :D

Cloudcroft,
We do whatever we want to do. The guy on the scene of the incident is the one who makes the call, not anyone else.

Well, almost. I'll admit that my instinctive responses are tempered by legal constraints and (especially in Kalifornia) attitudes of government employees. But you are correct when you say the guy on the scene makes the call.

If criminals -- in this case thieves stealing one's property -- knew beforehand who would shoot and who would not to protect "only property," they'd pick places like yours or poster markj's to rob.

I think you misunderstand me. A thief who, say, enters my garage to take something and flees when confronted is not going to get a bullet in the behind as he runs. Nor will the thief who surrenders and obeys my commands until the local PD arrives. However the guy who doesn't stand still or attacks is likely to get perforated, rapidly and repeatedly.

Capp35
November 28, 2006, 03:51 PM
Here in Texas, the law states that you can shoot for criminal trespassing and/or conduct on your property.

I am not saying I would kill (in Texas it would not be murder) a punk for trying to steal my car. But I would carry my gun outside for self defense and try to stop them.

I have heard of people going outside and just yelling at a punk and being killed or wounded.
I am not just going to sit inside and watch them trash my car and/or house!

The worst part would be telling your story to the Grand Jury. (If it got that far)

Jager1
November 28, 2006, 06:02 PM
Tayta_Mayne,

I understand. My perception of your intent was incorrect and I apologize. Further, you were successful in your attempt in thwarting the would-be thief. I need to learn to stifle myself better when it comes to my idiotic urge to argue with something THAT WORKED, no matter how much it unnerves me. :p

Just don't get yourself hurt or killed out there. We need you here!

I have confronted criminals stupidly more than a few times in the past.

Like the would be carjacker/mugger in Baltimore that approached my car window at a stoplight at a deserted intersection in the early morning hours. I sat there holding a .38 Special on him from inside the car and insisted upon arguing with him about him getting away from my car rather than simply driving through the red light! After some 10-15 seconds, I finally gassed it and left him there. My 'training' to not run a red light was stronger than my common sense.

Or the burglar than came crawling through my bedroom window after midnight. In my stupor, I grabbed a shotgun (that I had not a single round for in the entire house rather than the 38 Special I had loaded under the bed) to confront him with. :o

There are more. And no-one will ever be more critical of my defective thinking in those incidents than myself.

I thank God for the opportunities to change.

And a healthy prayer goes out to your friend.

Cloudcroft:We do whatever we want to do. The guy on the scene of the incident is the one who makes the call, not anyone else.

Thank you for concisely saying what I was unable to. :o

DVC9
December 1, 2006, 12:14 PM
T .M. Thankfully everything turned out OK.

If this was a forum about "being the victim of criminal activity" or some such then I tend to think you might have felt more vindicated.

Since the purpose of this forum is to address issues concerning firearms and often their use in self defense it only follows that your tactics would be scrutinized (rightly or wrongly) by the readers.

Do I disagree with the way you handled the situation??

Well I guess you can't argue with success.

Conversely though, I would submit that you were Lucky...

Having taught defensive tactics for a couple decades now, I feel confident in saying that you could have handled it in a more tactically sound manner.

There are a number of points that could be debated, but one begs for attention.

You stated that the perp was 45 feet away, and then you moved closer toward him.

You also mention you closed the locked door behind you, eliminating, your primary means of egress as well as access to weapon,phone, protection of cover etc.

Now I assume you are familiar with the Tueller drill...

If your adversary had produced a Big F-ing Knife and charged you, how many seconds would it have taken for you to
*react,
*retrace your steps,
*Unlock the door,
* Enter the building and Lock the door.

Now what if he had a gun instead of a knife??

Most all of us have allowed our Testosterone levels to affect our common sense at one time or another and often in spite of Training to the contrary.

Unfortunately though Bluster, Bravado, and Indignation clouded judgement may not always work.

As I mentioned there are a number of points that could be argued concerning the whole incident, but many of those points have been made by others already. Jager1 comes to mind.

I would hope for your sake that if the situation was repeated that this experience would give you pause to consider an alternative method of handling it.

Just something for you to consider.

Good day Sir, Mick

Tayta_Mayne
December 14, 2006, 03:17 AM
Sorry I havent been on lately. My computer was down. Mick I have stated everything that i could about what happened. I told you he Threw down his screwdriver kinda like, "lets do this". Oh and also, I never said 45' I said 15. I dont care that you judge my actions bud. I Already stated I beleive three times now that i put this here to see what you guys would have done. I never once even saide what did i do wrong. Then out of no where I get smacked with a bunch of what seems to be to me keyboard cammando crap. I have made my peice with the one that I needed to on this thread. And now i am leaving it and this section for a while. It seems to be going downhill. Oh and i didnt mean to single anyone out with that at all. I mean in general all the threads in this section always get taken over.

DVC9
December 14, 2006, 06:58 AM
T.M.

Sorry you are feeling ganged up on. Can't speak for others but that was not my intent personally.

Since you chose to clarify your statement and indicate that the gap was actually 15 not 45, then I would submit to you that you have proved the point I was making.

You could not have possibly retreated through your locked door before the average perp closed that distance and climbed your frame.

Instead of taking it personally, why not let us thank you for helping us pass along some valuable information.

Things happen everyday to good people, part of the reason these forums exist is to share pertinent info with our peers in the hope that they may benefit from lessons we have learned one way or the other.

Or so I thought...

M

markj
December 14, 2006, 03:02 PM
It seems to be going downhill.

:) :) seems many are in fear of their fellow humans :)

Years ago I lived over my Dads bar in a apartment, a guy tried to break in, cut himself all up with the window glass. I went down to look see, saw him bleeding all over, he claimed he had a cohort near by. I was unarmed and this was long before cell phones. I sauntered :) over to a phone, dialed 911 and told them what was going on. Nobody shot me, when I got back to the bar, nobody was to be found armed or otherwise. I knew the guy and gfave the police his name and where he lived, he was picked up the next day. We had to pay for the window tho.

A few months later I had 2 guys unload their guns at me in front of that very bar, it was in a rough neighborhood. All missed me, the police caught the guys found the guns in the street, let them go as no positive ID from any one cept me. I was carrying that night but didnt pull. Had another episode where a disgruntaled customer went home, got a 10 ga shotgun and shot thru the rear door hitting a few people. Seen a lot of this stuff, but I always remain calm and do not pull unless it is 100% nessasary. I would not show a gun to anyone unless it was right before I pulled the trigger. Only way it should be done. Never had to shoot anyone yet, but it dont mean I have never been in the fray.