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garryc
November 19, 2006, 01:49 PM
Freetacos said;

Obese bg's

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As Americans become increasingly obese, should law abiding citizens in the US consider using increasingly powerful loads to defend themselves from rotound assailants?

In responce to body build of former inmates.


Many young inmates tend to work out a great deal. Basically, you have men with no place to vent anger or sexuality. Men who are used to acting aggressively. They burn that testosterone by lifting, often to exhaustion.
As far as penetration is concerned, I would concern myself with muscle mass over fat mass do to density. I read an article once that stated a cop shot a guy 5 times with reduced recoil #4 buckshot at ranges of 10-20 yards. He hit front back and side. None of the pellets penetrated the thoracic cavity. The perp was just released from prison and was very solid with a fat index of about 8%.
Fat, being of low desity and the cels being mostly water, is easily pushed aside by a bullet. Now figure that the bad guy has his adrenilin pumping so his muscles are rigid. The question is, How much of the bullets energy is taken up by that muscle in that state? I don't think you could test it except maybe by taking a very extensive survey from hunters as to the condition of the animal at the moment of impact and direct examination of wounds.

threefivesevenmag
November 19, 2006, 05:02 PM
Bullets can act funny in any medium they come in contact with.

Shot placement is important, as everyone already knows.

Using modern bullet technology won't hurt in a defensive situation as well.

Every gunfight can yield different results, regardless of caliber. There are just too many different variables.

Reducing this issue is a matter of practice, training, and mindset.

Hopefully with those three things coming together as a whole, as well as the best handgun/shotgun/rifle for the individual defendee, plus reliable ammo will reduce the odds of failing to stop an attacker.

There are no magic bullets, no matter the caliber. Your mind is the tool that will get you out of dodge.

It's the software that supports the hardware which is important.

If this is just a caliber issue on how to deal with fat vs. muscle...a bullet will act differently many times. I just load my handgun with reliable, proven ammo in a caliber I am confident with and go about my daily life...no more room for debate on caliber. There are just too many other factors to consider and not enough tangible answers for a grand finale.

Muscle or fat...it's not up to us to decide. Arm yourself with what you shoot well and is reliable. Make sure it is of decent caliber, and stay aware. We cannot pick who may try to harm us, but we can avoid the situation and hopefully, in the end, we will be prepared enough to handle it with careful considerations made before hand.

FS2K
November 19, 2006, 05:10 PM
Be it fat or muscle, it makes no difference.

You need to keep in mind the power produced to propell these bullets to the velocities they achieve. Ordinary water can stop and cause a HP buttet to expand.

Mannlicher
November 19, 2006, 05:12 PM
just remember, always use enough gun. :)

buzz_knox
November 19, 2006, 05:29 PM
Always use enough bullet. Guns are just bullet launchers. Pick a quality round in a service caliber and put it where it's supposed to go.

bennnn
November 20, 2006, 07:11 PM
I agree with buzz;Pick a quality round in a service caliber and put it where it's supposed to go. Shot placement and accuracy are what really count.

There are guys walking around with pistols who could empty the mag at your head and still miss.

I also agree with this;I just load my handgun with reliable, proven ammo in a caliber I am confident with and go about my daily life...

I have to add that shooting into just about anyones' leg, with just about anything, will make the fat/muscle issue a non-issue,,,and keep them off of you, as well as giving you a little longer to decide if they need one somewhere else..

Why carry handguns if you don't practice enough to confidently place your shots? I don't just mean target practice, I'm talking about any type of drill that will teach you to think on the fly, under pressure... 25yd slowfire will not prepare you for ________________----_______________,,, you fill in the blank.........

tomh1426
November 20, 2006, 11:19 PM
I would never shoot someone in the leg.
If Im shooting someone Its because they are a threat to my life.
Im not trying to slow them down or hurt them I want to stop them dead.

oldbillthundercheif
November 21, 2006, 01:22 AM
Probably .357 or better would be good for hotdog-eating-contest types:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/zarganuts/fatguy.jpg

Double Naught Spy
November 21, 2006, 07:40 AM
I read an article once that stated a cop shot a guy 5 times with reduced recoil #4 buckshot at ranges of 10-20 yards. He hit front back and side. None of the pellets penetrated the thoracic cavity. The perp was just released from prison and was very solid with a fat index of about 8%.


And for every such amazing story, there is a similarly amazing story about how a .22 lr or .25 acp dropped a super human drug crazed perp. Bottom line, there are many variables that come into play when it comes to terminal ballistics and often not just the one or two mentioned in an article. I know, the article is all the information you had and that is understandable.

With that said, I am guessing that the problem with the #4 buck was either bad ammo (older ammo, bad primers, etc) that failed to attain velocity, or the shots were extremely badly placed. Maybe the article failed to mention the heavy winter clothing? As noted, muscle isn't body armor.

garryc
November 21, 2006, 10:10 AM
The problem with #4 buck is that the pellets have a sectional density of .057, a weight of only 21 grains, and energy at 75 foot pounds and a penitration rating in 10% gel of only 5.7". A 22 short is the closest comparitive round but will penitrate slightly deeper because of it's higher sectional density. #1 buck has a penitration factor in 10% gell of 16 or so inches at 15 yards. These are full power specs, not reduced power specs. Note that the minimum penitration considered effective is 12".

Ballistic gel only simulates and average in tissue. Fat is less dense, more elastic, and is therefore easy to penitrate. Muscle has higher density and resists bullet passage more. So if the perp has 4" of muscle compaire to 4" of fat the bullets penitration will be reduced.

Daves-got-guns
November 21, 2006, 11:56 AM
alrite, i will apolagize for being so damn racist, even though all i said was minority in a context that obviously offended less open minded folks. Lets all drop it, and get on with whats important, people talking about things that they dont even need to know about, like shooting fat people! have a nice day and im sorry somebody got offended.

Freetacos
November 21, 2006, 01:56 PM
oldbillthundercheif

where did you find that picture of me?

40MM
November 30, 2006, 09:14 AM
There is very little fat/muscle over the sternum and solar plexus. Would a hit there maybe put the odds in your favor?

jeager106
November 30, 2006, 09:51 AM
There is very little fat/muscle over the sternum and solar plexus. Would a hit there maybe put the odds in your favor?

Really? Maybe you should go back and look at the hotdog eating conest winner?:D
I doubt that guy is much a threat to anyone however.

40MM
December 1, 2006, 07:45 AM
If we can get him to lift his shirt, maybe we can see how much fat is actually covering his sternum? :D

buzz_knox
December 1, 2006, 08:30 AM
If we can get him to lift his shirt, maybe we can see how much fat is actually covering his sternum?

There goes my breakfast.

40MM
December 1, 2006, 09:19 AM
On morbidly obese opponents, the apron of fat tends to contraindicate pelvic shots.

On frontal shots, whether opponent is hugely obese or hugely muscular, there will be little extra covering the sternum.

When in doubt, neither fat nor muscle protects the head.

This was posted by Mas Ayoob a short while back. I think the last part pretty much sums it up. :)

Donovan655
December 1, 2006, 11:11 AM
i'd aim for the head.

DEvineWYnd
December 1, 2006, 11:19 AM
I hadn't checked this thread until now. I was laughing so hard at that picture I nearly crapped my pants :D

WIN71
December 2, 2006, 11:37 AM
contraindicate pelvic shots.
neither fat nor muscle protects the head.

Took the words right out of my mouth...........aim for the pie hole not the hot dog.

Somehow you're better with words than I am.

RustyRP
December 3, 2006, 09:21 AM
I cross posted this in over on GT - check out the youtube video - "My Momma taught me this" - I love it!! thankfully this was not a one on one fight as we might have had a deap cop

BTW - I counted over 40 baton hits & they were still struggling with this guy

Originally posted by Rusty Phillips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5_ihnWkDLo&mode=related&search=



a hollowpoint on these 350 lb (or more) big guys may not penetrate deep enough.... esp if passing thru their arm before getting to the chest
http://media3.guzer.com/pictures/needs_side_bags.jpg

http://www.modified3000gt.com/New/store/storepics/fatbastardst.jpg

Makarov The Lucky
December 3, 2006, 01:41 PM
Muscles have more density making a bullet harder to hit a vital point.
Thats why you see a cop shoot a huge muscular/really fit guy and he can still get up. While you can shoot a huge fat guy/really unfit and he'll go down in a shot. Now thats not always the case. Some fat guys tend to be really strong/fit and they were just born built that way and cant change it.
Those are the only difference. The fact is that a muscular/fit guy will have more of a chance of surviving a bullet than the average fat/unfit guy.
Which makes it a big reason to get in the best shape as possible. Specially if your a cop or other type of law enforcement. The end to my post. :)

Recon7
December 5, 2006, 02:28 PM
fat and muscle aren't exactly body armor. If my 9mm can destroy 6'' of tissue he will be hurt. big fat guy's hearts are already working overtime when they aren't hurt. I don't think they could handle a couple of wounds and still be a threat.

This is a reminder though that you need penetration first, then you want expansion.

SixForSure
December 5, 2006, 03:10 PM
Even the morbidly obese have very little supraorbital fat.

RustyRP
December 5, 2006, 09:57 PM
sixforsure - agree w/you..... although I used to work with this huge guy that they called "mater-head" - cause his noggin was shaped like a giant ripe tomato.... but that's another story for another thread.

recon7 - you are assuming that the 350 pounder will be an out of shape couch potato going to have a heart attack any day now,

but what if our 350 pounder is built like a NFL offensive lineman & his heart is in pretty good condition?

another thought - this load you mentioned able to penetrate 6" of flesh might make it into the heart if you have an unobstructed shot to the chest, but if the BG is aiming a handgun at you & you are shooting COM there's a good chance you are going to hit his arms first.

there are plenty of guys out there with huge arms.... guys that are in great shape as well as tubs-O-lard with fat ripples on the folds of their elbows - either way, an extended arm catching a bullet can easily prevent it from going where it needs to go.

Recon7
December 5, 2006, 11:22 PM
supra-orbital, that's the word of the day:eek: :eek: :eek:

rusty I said you need penetration. and if some dude pulled a gun on be and I shot him in the arm forcing him to drop his gun, thatd be kewl too.

my point is dumping a mag into center mass of any human should work. I wonder if "morbidly obese attacker" is the new zombie seeing as zombies are strictly forbidden (rightfully so). maybe if you shoot him in the medulla oblongata he would no longer be angry. Please, as long as there is no real body armor on a person several rounds center mass of any service caliber (9mm or better) should do the job.

CobrayCommando
December 5, 2006, 11:49 PM
And yet...

Daves-got-guns
December 6, 2006, 02:06 AM
shooting "husky guys" might be a problem for penetration, but elephant sized folks will probably have a heart attack. Its the muscle that would be a really big consideration, and if i had anything less then say a revolver with heavy bullets at moderate velocities, i would aim for the head. A .380 might go deep enough in muscle with a proper placed shot to get some attention, but to be safe a headshot is closest to 1 shot stop with any caliber. Also there was a shooting a year or 2 ago, with a guy who had a mak-90 and a big drum mag and body armor. I believe this is the case where a man confronted him, shot him in the armor with acouple of .45s from a custom 1911 "commander" and went for cover and a tactical reload, or something of the like. Man came around cornor of car or cover, and shot him down on the spot. This is a scenario where armor piercing "tokarov" or cz-52 or even a fn five-seven would have helped, who knows every situation is different, and a headshot isnt always able to be counted on either. By the way this shooting first engaged at 15 yard, or so ive heard. Sure you can blast paper targets all day and make headshots at 15 yards, but try that when somebody is shooting at others, moving or shooting at you.

SixForSure
December 6, 2006, 04:21 PM
Please, as long as there is no real body armor on a person several rounds center mass of any service caliber (9mm or better) should do the job.Far, far more often than not it should be sufficient.

maybe if you shoot him in the medulla oblongata he would no longer be angry.That has been shown to have a calming effect.