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Nagano21
November 9, 2006, 07:21 PM
I came accross this clip... don't know much about it, but if I was a cop, this would probably scare the crap outta me, and being him (the cop) I def would have a skid mark or two in my drawers.

http://www.break.com/index/cop_owned_by_boxer.html

marlboroman84
November 9, 2006, 07:28 PM
Not to be rude, but what's the point of posting that besides seeing a cop get beat up?

Jeff Dodson
November 9, 2006, 09:22 PM
Should have shot him. I know the guy did not have a firearm, but that would have been justified, he kept going after him and he was getting tired. I'm glad you posted it, it makes cops remember what can happen, so dont get so laxidazical in performing your duties. BTW. I'm a Cop

rem33
November 9, 2006, 10:06 PM
Jeff,
He did shoot him, go watch again.

I saw this the other day on the tube and wondered what caliber the cop used.
It wasn't enough apparently.
Also to me and this is just my opinion. Why do cops carry semi autos?
I have been considering starting a thread on this very subject.
I understand the fire power of the auto but the dang things JAM.
I have read here guy's ( cops I think) they have fired theirs thousands of times without a single failure. Yes there are well made autos, but in a fight or whatever stuff happens. If the gun is against clothing or whatever it will not function like it should then what? If the cop had a good double action 357revolver in the video we just watched the bad guy would NOT ( maybe) have been able to continue to beat the poor cop.

This is the third piece of video I have seen in the last couple of months where the cops auto jammed. Two including this one the cop is lucky to be alive it looked like to me.

If my life was going to depend on my Pistol I want one that is gonna work under the worst conditions never to jam.

Any cops out there that can answer that for me? If I was one of you guys I would want a bad a$$ revolver.

garryc
November 9, 2006, 10:11 PM
I've seen many guys take a shot of pepper and ask for more. Since he got shot with both pepper and a gun, and it had no psycological effect, I'd say the guy was psychotic or on PCP.
I'd feel well armed with a 357 revolver. I really would rather have a 41 mag

The Canuck
November 9, 2006, 10:21 PM
We have to consider a whole slew of things.

First off, the continuum of force. When the guy came up off the hood, the cop was justified to use pepper spray to control the threat. Whent hat failed to work and he was getting the snot beat out of him THEN he was justified in using the firearm.

Next up, I find it interesting that the cop would just shoot him once and expect him to stop.
The axiom I was taught in the Army was, "You stop (shooting) when he stops (being a threat)". So he should have continued firing until the big guy was laid low.

Next up, all it takes to jam any pistol is to place it out of battery or in the case of revolvers, jam the cylinder. Considering what was going on, it would not surprise me if the pistol jammed when it went out of battery because the big guy grabbed the pistol and pushed the slide back a bit in his attempt to grab it. If any of us, with whatever choice of type were in that same situation, we would have had to same problem, revolver or autoloader.

Pucker
November 9, 2006, 11:29 PM
Wonder what kind of gun he was using that jammed. Anyone?

And why did the officer remove the guy from his vehicle just for speeding? Or was it a little speeding AND attempting to escape? (I think it might have been based on how the officer's vehicle was parked compared to the perp's.)

BillCA
November 10, 2006, 12:17 AM
Failure to stop with a handgun is not uncommon. Especially against large, well muscled individuals.

A couple of years ago, local officer I knew and his partner came across a big Samoan fellow (6'3, 296#) taking a shower in a local 75-cent car wash -- at 1:45am. He was buck naked and bending the hose to reduce the pressure. They started talking to him -- a little drunk, locked out of the house by angry wifey, he decided to shower off the day's labors and try talking her into letting him in. When partner said they'd have to cite him for indecent exposure he got mad. Ripped the spray wand & hose off, said where he was going to stuff it on the officer and charged. Two cans of pepper spray worked like a deodorant for all the effect it had. They repeatedly sprayed him to no effect. When the guy finally picked up a 5-ft length of rebar and charged, both officers fired their .40 S&W pistols. First hit was the right pectoral muscle, second hit was low COM about 1 inch above the belly button. The disabling round was a third shot into the left hip socket that crashed him to the ground. After about 30 sweaty seconds of him trying to get up again the pain hit him and he gave up. They had to handcuff him with leg-irons because standard handcuffs were too small for his wrists.

Interestingly, the pectoral shot was a Remington 155gr JHP which expanded to .61 caliber, but impacted a rib and stopped, imbedded in the rib.

Lesson learned: According to the officer I know, the next time a Samoan gets mad, he's grabbing the 12-gauge!

saypek
November 10, 2006, 05:49 AM
What a time for the gun to jam! Canuck was right, shoot until the perp's no longer a threat. If i'm a cop, i'd still carry an auto. When faced with multiple threats, high capacity pistols are better choice than six shot revolvers.

Jeff Dodson
November 10, 2006, 08:03 AM
:cool: Ok when I first watched the video, I had the sound off.

Now in all the trainings I have been in, including SWAT School, they teach to retain your weapon and NOT let the subject get aho;d of it. In ALOT of the training we did was close quarters. I cant tell the secrets taught to us, I dont want any perps that may be onlooking to know :) I'm not saying that what he did was wrong, he went home with no serious injuries, so he did it right. It dont really matter if the perp lived or dies in this instance, he did not get away and the officer went home safely. In the end, that is the intended result.

threefivesevenmag
November 10, 2006, 08:59 AM
Man, that's rough.

Does anyone know what sentence the guy got for all that?

Darth Sensei
November 10, 2006, 09:49 AM
I bet that department now has Tazers. :rolleyes:

Double Naught Spy
November 10, 2006, 10:02 AM
If the gun is against clothing or whatever it will not function like it should then what? If the cop had a good double action 357revolver in the video we just watched the bad guy would NOT ( maybe) have been able to continue to beat the poor cop.

Revolvers have the problem that they can be grabbed and the cylinder held so that it will not turn and as such the gun can't be fired. With an auto, you still get that first shot.

Given how handguns fail to stop folks, speculation that a 357 would have done the job is a bit dubious. Now you are just talking caliber and not platform. There are large caliber semi auto platforms as well.

Semi autos can have stoppages, no doubt, but they also clear fairly easy. From what I have seen, most stoppages are either due to ammo or poor maintenance. The vast majority can be cleared with a tap-rack. When a revovler has a stoppage, it likely isn't readily cleared short of breaking it open.

If you want something more mindless, then revolvers might be the way to got given they are more likely to work if poorly maintained, but as noted, the number of shots are limited, reloads are slower, etc. However, no cop or CCW person should have a poorly maintained gun.

OuTcAsT
November 10, 2006, 10:14 AM
I find it odd that the officer did not put the suspect in cuffs before the search began, may differ with jurisdiction but I am pretty sure that officers here do so for safety reasons.

threegun
November 10, 2006, 11:01 AM
He should have fired a double or triple tap. He probably feared having to explain excessive rounds on an unarmed man to the brass and jury. Bottom line he survived.

Nagano21
November 10, 2006, 12:45 PM
The point of posting it was the factor of the gun jamming,and wanted to see what discussion it would bring. I was not sure if anyone knew anymore about the story maybe from their local news, and was wondering what type of firearm he was using and more about the story...Aight.

The Canuck
November 10, 2006, 09:47 PM
One thing about the whole calibre/platform/phase of the moon thing...

I have worked with a lot of different people and a few of them were in armed conflict along side me. It always boils down to the operator, not the tool.

In this case the operator was not up to snuff to deal with the perpetrator, not critisizing him, just observing. I'll bet he's high speed now!

Trip20
November 10, 2006, 09:58 PM
Something has to be said about the officer's inability to remain on his feet, and safely stay away from the bigger stronger attacker.

A severe lack of physical ability and coordination seemed to be a major factor in direction the altercation took. What that type of job can demand at times (as evident by the video) makes me wonder what physical standards are in place for officers around the nation.

Considering some of the officers I know, have known, and even the ones I've seen day to day... some officers are severely out of shape, and do not - for the most part - appear that they are ready for life-or-death physical confrontation.

Looks can be deceiving, though, and that’s important to remember. I know a short fat man who is a martial arts instructor. He’s a very powerful man, with scary cat-like balance. I’ve seen him spar and his movements have a very quiet, determined demeanor.

I'm in good physical shape. But who knows, taken off guard and scared like that officer... I might not have fancy footwork either.

If I were an officer, I'd take this is a good heads-up reminder that not only is my pistol, mace, cuffs…etc… part of my tool kit, but my body, mind, and physical ability are just as important. Complacency kills.

death2twinkys
November 10, 2006, 11:39 PM
Click the link and be at least a little amazed. (http://www.break.com/index/cop_owned_by_boxer.html)

marlboroman84
November 11, 2006, 06:25 AM
The point of posting it was the factor of the gun jamming,and wanted to see what discussion it would bring. I was not sure if anyone knew anymore about the story maybe from their local news, and was wondering what type of firearm he was using and more about the story...Aight.

Fair enough. :D

EastKY_DO
November 11, 2006, 08:31 AM
The story about the Samoan reinforces my long held belief that light, fast hollowpoints are not the best choice. Heavier JSPs should penetrated deeper and give more assurance of something vital being struck.

Like the old adage says, expansion is nice, penetration is fine and accurace is final.

:)

FRANK1669
November 11, 2006, 07:58 PM
Lets give the Patrolman some credit He is doing a tough job and I am very thankful he is still alive-

He should have fired a double or triple tap. He probably feared having to explain excessive rounds on an unarmed man to the brass and jury. Bottom line he survived.

From what i saw in the video I think he did the right thing the first shot missed 2 more stray rounds in a residential area is not the best choice

His second shot was morre or less from the hip Not a very good firing position for a double tap

Had it been a Double action revolver he probably would be dead They say the perp had his weapon ( I am assuming he didnt know how to clear the weapon to fire)

police have to get close to people to do there jobs I dont think cuffing this person prior to the search would have helped the guy would have started fighting when the officer had is hands occupied with the cuffs
but enough of my rantings the officer did as best he could under the situation He kept his head and he stayed alive I am just thankful Backup arived in time.

banditt007
November 17, 2006, 02:50 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but towards the end of the video the cop ran back grabbed his gun, and then the BG ran at him and the officer pistol whipped him in the face with it. The officer def had time before he ran up to clear that weapon and unload on the guys sorry ass. Could have been a malfunction not easily cleared but still.

I wish that cop could have ran back into the car and grabbed a 12 gauge to remove one more POS from the streets.

stephen426
November 17, 2006, 03:15 AM
I'm glad the officer is okay. That suspect looked like a beast. While I agree that the officer should have fired more than one shot, he probably thought that one shot was enough to stop the suspect. As for not clearing the jam, lets see how lucid you guys are after getting pistol whipped and pounded by a heavy weight prize fighter. Its easy to criticize from the comfort of our computers. :rolleyes:

death2twinkys
November 17, 2006, 03:58 AM
I agree thats why i do it from my computer not the field... ;) ;)

skipjack
November 17, 2006, 02:03 PM
I wonder if the firearm has a magazine safety. If so, it is possible that the mag release was activated, rendering the pistol unable to fire. Just a thought!

The Body Bagger
November 25, 2006, 05:06 AM
I like all these "he shoulda, I would have....." comments. The Officer did a hell of a job in high stress situation against a formidable opponent. Officer is still alive = one for the good guys.

locknid
November 25, 2006, 06:59 AM
I can say from personal experience, not being a cop but security in an extremely ghetto place where 90% of the arrests I make end up in a battle, that it is easy to criticize when you are not in the situation yourself. When you get into a fight, the perp possibly having some kind of weapon, you don't know his fighting skills, if he has friends nearby, your mind goes blank. Most of the time you do not have time to think, you just have to DO. After every single incident I always go over what happened in the situation and what I could have done differently or what I need to work on. The tricky thing about pepper spray is that there are many factors which contribute to whether it working or not. First of all the suspect's tolerance to it has a big role. I have sprayed people that immediatly hit the ground and give up, where others keep fighting even though they can not see. Another factor is the brand of pepper spray. There are a lot of BS brands and in my opinion the only two that should be carried is Fox Labs and Sabre red. Here is AZ the phx pd that I am always dealing with carry the sabre. Also there are different types of spray including stream, foam, cone, mist etc. Each one will absorb differently on the suspect's face. Last but not least there is the officer's aim. If using stream aim has to be pretty good pretty fast before the suspect can turn his head away. I personaly use cone so my aim can pretty much be non-existant.

Now after that long explanation from the fuzzy video it looked as if the Officer was counting on the pepper spray to work. I can't blame him as most of the time it will bring a fight to an end quickly. He should of also had his baton ready, but judging from the video he probably would have gotten that taken away from him also by the perp. Batons can be used in various ways including hits to the head and other areas which is the same as lethal force and can be very effective.

I would like to know how long the officer had been out of the acadamy before this happened. It seemed he just lacked overall experience in situations of that magnitude. He also should have called for backup before getting the suspect out of the vehicle. I don't know how big of a town this took place in so backup might not have been an immediate option. Here in PHX in the area I work usually a car with two cops shows up or at least two cars depending on the situation. I can see how he didn't think to clear the weapon once he got it back, just because someone is a police officer does not mean they are a weapons expert. Also like a previous poster said it is hard to actually think in the middle of an intense situation.

In that situation, I am about the same size as that guy 5-08 and 175 pounds, I would have immediatly called for another unit because I knew if the situation got hairy I wouldn't be able to take someone of that size. He is one lucky SOB thats for sure. I also would have probably tried to gain more distance from the subject before attempting anything, first things first I would want to get on that radio and let them know whats going on and that I needed help asap. I couldn't tell from the video but it didn't look like he got on his radio while he had the chance. Also this is a perfect example of why every police officer should carry a taser. I have heard countless stories and seen countless videos of a taser stopping even the most crazed subject. very rarely is someone able to withstand the shock, not fall to the ground unable to move, or even remove the barbs. Most of the stories about those are usually made up or exaggerated.

Sorry for such a long post but not too many people realize the amount of factors which officers have to think about in every situation. You can't be prepared for everything and like in this video you should never plan what you are going to do in advance and then act surprised when it doesn't work, like what happened to this guy.

Also most likely the gun was a glock varient usually a 9mm like a 19 but I have seen some officers carrying .40's more and more. Another thing is that some places use FMJ rather then hallowpoints for some reason.

SOrry one last point( i am bored and can't sleep) is that like a previous post said police often times worry about the possibel court cases in the aftermath then their own lives. Sorry but the damn liberals have ruined policing, even sometimes turning good cops into criminals because of use of force situations. Its said when people would rather protect a life-long criminal then a cop that either did or did not screw up once.

Makarov The Lucky
November 26, 2006, 12:19 AM
Do you know what happened to the boxer? Charges? Did he die?
I cant say much about the officer...but the boxer was a tough guy.:cool:
The criminal is in the same position though and it seemed as though he had no problem fighting.
And so we criticise the officer. Sux for him that he got the bad end of the bargain but thats life.

locknid
November 26, 2006, 05:20 AM
what most people dont realize is that many many people are bigger and stronger then most cops, hence the use of less-lethal tools. even if a person is smaller it still can be incredibly hard to get them in cuffs without extra help.

Makarov The Lucky
November 26, 2006, 04:54 PM
The police need a better training academy or something.
Police need to be in better shape, and have more experience ect.

rickster
December 23, 2006, 11:05 AM
There's a lot of great answers here. Here's mine. The force continuum was definitely in motion here. When it reached the point when the suspect started swinging at the officer's face, it was reason enough to use deadly physical force. In a close combat situation, it is not that unusual for a gun to jam. Make and model is usually not an issue. Whether the suspect grabbed the gun or the officer was holding the gun too close to his body is up to speculation. But something like that was the likely scenerio to make the gun jam - not allowing the gun to fully cycle thus making the gun out of battery. At that point, its nothing more than a hammer. Luckily, for the officer, the suspect wasn't thinking clearly or had no idea how to use a gun or he could have made the gun functional again. Nothing against the officer but when he got the gun back, it should have been instinct to tap, tilt, rack. He would have been back in business. Complacency was probably a factor too. Someone said that the suspect should have been handcuffed prior to a search. Absolutely! There are techniques taught that a 150 lb. man can take down a 250 lb. man with little problem. Again - training.

In this instance, the bottom line was the officer went home that night and the bad guy ended up in jail. Realize though how differently this could have ended up with only a slightly different scenario occuring.

kgpcr
December 23, 2006, 09:50 PM
.40 from close range and only 2" penetration??? That i would have to see to believe. I have heard of a guy taking 8 .45 shots to the chest 2 to the abdomen and living. we hear these stories all the time i just dont believe them

Seven High
December 24, 2006, 03:31 PM
Did the officer have a back up weapon? He should have pulled it out and emptyed it into the suspect, if he had one!

Deaf Smith
December 24, 2006, 04:24 PM
The cop simple did not have much H2H skills. As a result he defaulted to his training (i.e. no training.) Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch, and I guess his gun either failed, or he failed to get it to work.

He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.

The Body Bagger
December 24, 2006, 04:47 PM
blah blah blah, more continuous comments of what he should have done. Guys if you don't work the field, you really have no idea of how you would react.

As for the "most guys are bigger than cops" comment, huh? No matter what line of work you do world wide, there is always going to be someone bigger, someone stronger.

roger-ruger
December 24, 2006, 07:34 PM
Always keep your distance, especially if you dont have back-up to cover you up. Only attempt to put handcuffs if the guy (especially that big) is face and belly flat on the ground.

Overman
December 24, 2006, 08:48 PM
Moral of the story: when you hear the orchestral music start to really pick up, it's time to get serious in the fight.

It's like those swimmers in the Jaws movie. Didn't they hear the ominous music? I tell you what, I hear that music, I'm getting out of the water.

Deaf Smith
December 24, 2006, 10:08 PM
Years ago, near Marshal Texas, a female cop tried to cuff a LARGE guy who gave off indicators he was going to fight. She ignored him, even turned away to answer a radio call to her, and as a result got the **** beaten out of her (I saw the video from her own police cruiser cam.) Several facial bones broken. Later she quit the force largly cause she could not handle the stress (I'm sure everytime she stopped big men she worried that would happen again.)

I've been in a few fights, held a burgler at gunpoint, chased one purse snacher down (there were two of us) and held him for police (in the Virgin Islands on my honey moon.) Not to mention I've been in quite a few martial arts tournaments. So I have a bit of an idea how I'd react.

If you are going to mess with people and send them to jail, expect some will fight you. Cuase it is going to happen, sooner or later.

NCHornet
January 1, 2007, 04:18 PM
This post in right inline with one I posted on another forum. It seems to me by the video that this officer was probably a rookie ( under 5 years street experience) and more than likely in rural area. This is the type of enviorment that I currently live. I grew up outside LA and my brother n law was a San Bernardino Deputy and my best friend was a LA deputy out of Firestone Park (Ghetto) it doesn't get much rougher than this area. My weekends were filled with ride a longs with both of them. There training was remarkable, with many training classes being taken throughout the year. Where I currently live, it is a down right joke the training these young officers receive. They are paid $10.00 per hour and thrown out in a car all by themselves. This is crazy in my personal opinion. Sure we live in Mayberry RFD (literally), but bad stuff happens everywhere and it is time that we learned that we need to invest in our officers, bith in training and salary if we expect them to stick around and do the job. Our local police and Sherrifs dept have a huge turnover rate because they literally quit and go to work at Lowes to support their families.
This young officer was darn lucky to go home that night. I see several things that showed his lack of training but won't go into them. I will say that all officers should carry a BUG for scenarios just like this one. This officer upon retreaving his weapon, never tried to clear the jamb, not one time, if the gun could not be cleared the BUG should have been drawn and dumped into the COM of the perp. Again I am thankful he went home that night and can only hope he seeks further training on his own and now carries a BUG.

DanV1317
January 1, 2007, 05:11 PM
Quote from Rem (2nd or third post of the thread)
I saw this the other day on the tube and wondered what caliber the cop used.
It wasn't enough apparently.

Maybe consider he shot the guy in the leg?

Shot in the leg= doesn't matter if it's a .45 or a 9mm


Maybe he didn't even hit him

No hit= doesn't matter if it's a 50 cal

FLA2760
January 7, 2007, 06:16 PM
That is tough to watch. Every cop is aware that every call is a potential "gun run" a firearm is always present, the officers. The fact that the person is "unarmed" who is beating the officer to the point of going unconscious is reason to shoot the bad guy in order to stop the attack. If he gets the officers gun he will shoot the officer.

Atla
January 8, 2007, 12:08 AM
Do cops not carry pocket knives?

I'd have to agree with the other folks, he had time to rack the slide before the feller ran back up on him.

And what about his baton?

FLA2760
January 9, 2007, 10:52 PM
Yes a Pocket knife and or baton certainly may have helped but a BUG in the form of a revolver would have been best.

Maser
January 9, 2007, 11:29 PM
These type of videos make me laugh. Not that I hate cops or like senseless violence against productive members of society, but just the fact that a small cop up against a huge BG. Just the size comparison makes me laugh a bit. I was kind of small for my age growing up and know what it's like to be the little guy. Glad the cop is still alive.

theberettaman
January 10, 2007, 12:47 AM
Just keep an eye out for the show on CourtTV called Most Shocking.It's on the Shootout episode.
I think the guy got like 6yrs.:barf:

Tripplethreat
January 11, 2007, 05:21 PM
This video alone makes the case for FOF training,both with weapons and without.The perp was a skilled fighter.Probably much better training than the officer had,overall. This is just the way it happens in real life,and if you carry a firearm as a civilian it would behoove you realize that you also stand a chance of loosing your weapon.Train for it,have a mindset to never give up,and whether with guns,bare hands,or whatever,train to fight to kill. Not just to win. They certainly won't have any qualms about killing you.

Zigokubasi
February 18, 2007, 08:01 AM
I only post here because my CCL instructor covered this specifically and did so in a manner which was quite new and unusual to me, but he picked up from other, more experienced sources - given that his background is nothing to shake a stick at, that's saying something. None of us thought it would work until he showed us himself then drilled us on it - once you've rocked and locked out of the holster, with your weapon at your side and canted slightly (to avoid snagging the slide on clothing), move your support hand from your belly to the weapon, grasp the slide palm down with your thumb behind the rear sight (or on the back of the slide for you striker-fired folks) and push the slide forward, keeping it in battery and allowing you to fire even with a guy right on top of you (literally in physical contact). Then forcefully cycle the action and repeat until the BG stops.

Basically turns your self-loader into an assisted loader, but it keeps your slide in battery.

revjen45
February 18, 2007, 01:49 PM
Seems like the main lesson here is have a BUG.

Stretchman
February 18, 2007, 02:43 PM
No, the lesson here is to never try to search a perp on the hood of a car that hasd been running for a while. Don't know how many times I've heard about that one. The car's engine gets hot, and when you put a perp down on the hood, they get burned, and they get ****** off.

FAL-schutter
February 19, 2007, 09:11 AM
rickster said:Luckily, for the officer, the suspect wasn't thinking clearly or had no idea how to use a gun or he could have made the gun functional again. Nothing against the officer but when he got the gun back, it should have been instinct to tap, tilt, rack. He would have been back in business.Sure, but by the point that the cop recovered his weapon he'd taken more than a bit of pummeling. I suspect it's considered a bit too risky to inflict actual physical injury on cadets for the sake of teaching them to be able to clear stoppages in any circumstance.

Deaf Smith said:He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.Well, he was, in the sense that he was a boxer, though I'll concede that that particular skill-set was not entirely relevant in this situation, in that boxers tend not to (train to) encounter much smaller guys with pepper sprays and handguns in the ring.

On balance, I think it was actually a good thing the cop had a semi-auto, since the perp managed to wrest it away. The only thing that stopped the perp from turning the weapon on the cop was the fact that it had suffered a stoppage. Now, as Double Naught Spy noted earlier, you can stop a revolver from firing by grabbing the cylinder, and if that had been the problem, once the perp had gained control of the weapon, there would have nothing to stop him from using it on the cop.

And, you know, at the end of the day the cop did all right, in that he managed to stay conscious (and alive) and in (regained) control of his sidearm until the backup arrived. The power of a police force doesn't (and shouldn't, in my opinion) so much rest in its members all being crack operators with enough firepower to single-handedly level half a block, but in its ability to coordinate, and call down overwhelming numbers of its members to a single location in short order. I'd rather the police were reticent about the (threatened) use of force, simply because I don't like the idea of being pulled over for merely speeding and then finding myself lying cuffed on my stomach with the state patrolman holding a gun on me while he waits for his backup to arrive.

stephen426
February 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
The cop simple did not have much H2H skills. As a result he defaulted to his training (i.e. no training.) Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch, and I guess his gun either failed, or he failed to get it to work. He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.

Hey guys... looks like we have Chuck Norris posting here! :rolleyes: The problem with most of these gun forums is that we tend to forget that being a cop does not usually mean 1. Gun enthusiast and/or 2. Hand to Hand Fighting Specialist. I'd go as far as to say that only BASIC shooting skills and BASIC hand to hand skills are all that is required for a police officer to demonstrate before passing. A gun is just a tool for most officers and while their lives depend on it, they are not any more obcessed with their guns than a chef is with his knife. Many posters also forget that being a cop involves other skills and duties and unless they are SWAT, much of their time is not involved in training.

Deaf Smith, your post is ridiculous. "Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch?" With the force disparity, do you really think that cop had a chance hand to hand against that guy. Maybe you are over confident or seriously under estimate trained boxers. Boxers are tough guys who can take lots of punishment. Its not like a tournament where you go for the point and then stop. I think it was clear in the video that if the cop went hand to hand, he would have been a dead cop. One other thing is going hand to hand and striking a perp is a great way to get sued for excessive force, especially if you leave bruises. This may not really be the case but watch what some scumbag lawyer can do. Thanks for you analysis Chuck Norris :barf: .

The main problems here were
1. Lack of experience (calling for back up early on, cuffing the suspect first, only shooting once rather than until the threat is over)
2. Possible lack of stronger "non-lethal" weapon such as a Taser
3. Unrealistic expectation from the pepper spray
4. Possibly not enough gun or poorly performing rounds
5. No back up in the form of a partner or other car

The cop was able to get out of a situation that got really ugly really quick. I'd say that he did okay given the circumstances.
4. Massive size discrepancy

FP2000H
February 19, 2007, 10:38 AM
With a name like Shannon, there's no win this guy could ever win a fight!

Seancass
February 19, 2007, 11:24 AM
i take it none of you read the comments to the video or you'd probly be angrier. but i guess you shouldnt get angry at 12 year olds posing as 16 year olds so they can post on the intraweb.

i hope the cop in the video got a taser.

and, even if he was well trained, there is a point where shear size and determination, and possibly intoxication, takes away 95% of the effectivness of that training. i guess the other 5% kept this cop alive. maybe he could have done more, but he came out alive and the bad guy has the hole in him.

mjrodney
February 19, 2007, 11:48 AM
From my comfortable arm chair, I am thinking that dropping the magazine on a handgun that will not fire without it, letting the bad guy take the gun (i.e., he has stopped punching you), and while he is busy trying to figure out why he can't shoot you with your own gun, you pull out your backup .454 Rohrbaugh and teach him some manners.

Gotta run. Crimestoppers is on tv.

rickster
February 19, 2007, 12:42 PM
Ahhhhhhh, alright now. All comfortable in my recliner. Let's remember here that, above all else, it was a happy ending. The officer went home. That's all that really matters. Beyond that, if we learn anything from that ordeal, it might help out one of us in the future. After watching that video for about the third or fourth time, another thought came to me. It might have been better if the officer retreated to his vehicle (not in it but to it). Giving himself some cover and distance. Although I still say that everyone will resort back to training when involved in a stressful situation. And that, it was not a natural reaction to tap, tilt, rack his firearm shows a lack of proper training. We did that routine until that heals of our hands were bruised from tapping the magazine. Hope I never have to be tested on it but I am very confident that if the situation arises, it will come instinctively to me.

Again, its easy to Monday morning quarterback any situation. Just happy he went home that night with a sore body as opposed to something much worse.

revjen45
February 19, 2007, 02:29 PM
Actually, most chefs are quite fond of their knives.

paradoxbox
February 19, 2007, 04:34 PM
IMO irresponsible for a police officer not to be versed in any kind of martial art, boxing, whatever. You don't need to be Chuck Norris as one poster so eloquently put it. But if you're a cop you should at least know what it's like to get hit in the head hard. It could save your life. There are a lot of people out there like those in the video who are faster, stronger, and there are some people who are also smarter, than you will be. And god forbid you have to face that person in anger and you do not have the resources to defeat them.

Better safe than sorry. Martial arts (H2H fighting skills for all purposes. Do judo!) plus regular police training equals well rounded and safer police officer.

wolfmann
February 19, 2007, 06:33 PM
What did the cop do right?
He kept MOVING!
The bad thing he did was mostly only straight back,allowing the guy to only have to step forward.
Notice the guy had a harder time following him when he moved to the side.
side to side,angles work well especially with a larger opponent.
Also if you will note, Big Guys get tired faster,you dont see heavyweights bounce around like a lightweight for too long.
Course being shot didnt help lol.
Learning to break handholds is also very helpfull.
Big Guys usually make the mistake of just using their size alone to subdue others as you can see in the vid,the cop kept moving and the guy couldnt get a good grip on him.
The Big Guy as a boxer was just a plug with poor skills,maybe thats why he never got anywhere in the ring.
By the way im a pretty Big guy myself just not stupid.
And yes i have several years of Kara-Te and Judo with Boxing thrown in.
And of course many years of shooting skills lol.
My first instructor was a Green Beret who only stood 5'6" with 2 tours in Vietnam,he had several hand to hands behind him.
He taught me alot.