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View Full Version : Restraint in SD/LEO Training


ksmash01
November 7, 2006, 08:28 PM
I seem to see a lot of videos involving multiple police officers engaging an armed suspect and responding to the threat with expotential force. The most recent example of this is the " man shot 81 times" thread, and i'm sure there are more.

my question is:
During these type of heated shootings, are all officers on the scene going to fire on the suspect until he drops, or the officers need a reload? are they trained to do this?

I'm not talking about 1 on 1 or even 1 on 2 events, i'm thinking more like 1 on 5 or more, esentially when the perp is outnumbered with no chance what-so-ever of making a getaway, or engaging/defeating the officers involved.

I've been taught to "shoot until there is no threat". but when you're the 5th cop on the line, is it necessary to join the other 4 in firing upon the suspect?

It's not that I feel sorry for the perp, but i do feel bad for the perps surroundings(unless they are the sole possesions of the perp, then i don't really care).

Thank You for your thoughts

Kalen Thomas

Teufelhunden
November 8, 2006, 10:38 AM
My thoughts on the matter are that each individual officer probably perceives the same threat to himself and there isn't time for a committee meeting when the bad guy is charging with an ice pick. In the absence of such planning, each officer's own survival instinct kicks in and he takes the action necessary to stop the threat and keep himself alive.

It is a group of people acting individually, not a band of cops deciding to shoot the guy 81 times.

-Teuf

OneInTheChamber
November 8, 2006, 04:45 PM
The least thing you want is a "I got it" baseball situation happening; where two players are both going after the same ball and both say "I got it"; so both figure the other is going to catch it and backs off.

Pucker
November 8, 2006, 05:26 PM
Wheres that video that shows that guy with a knife giving a half dozen police a run for their money, some of them even had AKs but were wanting to save the guy instead. Think it happened in central/south America. The guy ended up stabbing a couple of them before somebody finally got him.

chrisandclauida2
November 8, 2006, 10:35 PM
what everyone needs to understand is that in such immediate explosive situations each officer on scene is evaluating the incident as it unfolds.

they may or may not see things that tell them ok he is now a threat to my life or my 7 brother officers life. they may all or some or most come to this decision at the same time and open fire at the same time. then they still each individually have to decide when to stop firing so they may all stop at once or at different points.

you also have situations where if one or more officers shoot others may join in because of the solidarity response or to show that it cant be unreasonable because more than one fired.

during this if 10 officers fire for only one second the guy could be shot 80 or 100 times. so i always laugh when people march screaming why did they shot my boy or my [insert scumbag family member or other significant other here] 80 times what did he do blah blah blah. the fact is they didnt have a clue what they are talking about. you can shoot as many as ten rounds in a second in some weapons. so if you have 10 or 13 officers in a semi circle around a shooter he can get shot 100 times easy.

in some situations the lead officer may designate a shooter a taser and or a spray officer. this is if they have time as the situation is developing. this keeps 20 weapons holstered and reduces the chance of an AD or cross fire either directly or ricochet.

i have been in a few of these situations. if it was where only less lethal ammo is deployed i didn't feel the need to secure my weapon and have been in one where several shot at once.

i have been in two situations where lethal weapons were deployed and in both i secured my weapon or raised the shotgun/ port arms type of thing.

i figured with ten guys shooting buck shot it was safer to allow the other 8 or 9 to throw that much lead around in a confined space. talk about pin ball.

pickpocket
November 8, 2006, 10:42 PM
Not only that, but most people will not remember how many rounds they actually fired. The first several firefights I was in were like that - I thought I only fired three or four rounds when in fact I had unloaded an entire magazine; I thought I had only gone through two or three magazines when in fact I had gone through five or six. I thought I had only advanced a block or two when in fact we had advanced four or five.

As time went on I was able to keep track of these things better, but how many of us are exposed to stress at that level at a consistency that allows us to actually do that?

Research has also shown that it can take almost a full second for the change in visual stimuli (i.e. the threat is no longer a threat) before the brain shuts down the trigger finger. It is not uncommon for people to be able to squeeze off anywhere between 3 and 6 rounds per second.

Multiply these factors by the number of cops you have shooting and you start to see how these kinds of things happen.

ksmash01
November 10, 2006, 02:07 AM
after reading the responses I understand the issue a lot better, and have derived this (self) explaination:

once a threat, still a threat as long as it exists. Nobody present of the threat is safe until that threat is terminated.

using this mind set, the 5th cop in my example sees the threat the same as the first 4 officers on the scene, and acts independently until the threat is no more, as do the first 4 officers. Add adrenaline and the number of shots fired will multiply.

silicon wolverine
November 10, 2006, 03:49 AM
well thought out response. id like to add that in my own expierence, it very hard to count shots when youre firing in a stress situation. Ive never had to shoot at people but i have been in situations with rabid dogs, skunks, and a very ****** off badger (living on a country farm has its share of problems) and you tend to shoot until you percive the threat is gone. just hitting the target may not be enough. i shot that rabid dog seven times with my 9mm and it never slowed down until i hit it right between the eyes. even after the dog dropped it took me about 3/4 of a second to stop firing simply because of adrenalin. in a four to five second engagement i fired 16 rounds wihtout even thinking about it. Simply on instinct.

SW

David Armstrong
November 10, 2006, 01:47 PM
The multiple shooters/multiple shots effect has been researched quite a bit. Try checking the Force Science webiste or Tom Aveni's work at the Police Policy Studies Council for accurate information.

OneInTheChamber
November 10, 2006, 08:00 PM
Exactly ksmash01; if you take 9 or so officers firing that many rounds; it is not unreasonable for each officer to fire 9 or so rounds.

Greg_Dunn
November 10, 2006, 08:07 PM
Add this for thought-

When the news shows 5-6 officers taking someone to the ground fighting and proclaim "excessive force" was used think of this.

An average adult that does not want to be arrested is not going to be taken down by 1 officer if they choose to resist.

I have always challenged media types to step up to the plate and handcuff a 6' 200lb man that does not want to be cuffed by themselves and then tell me about excessive force.

All is not what it appears, and the camera does not tell the entire story.

There is a no brainer solution- if you don't want to get shot, whacked with a baton, or otherwise hurt in any way, don't do stupid stuff and get the interest of the police to start with.

You go until the threat is gone, losing is not an option.

Jeff #111
November 12, 2006, 12:31 AM
Greg_Dunn
When the news shows 5-6 officers taking someone to the ground fighting and proclaim "excessive force" was used think of this.

An average adult that does not want to be arrested is not going to be taken down by 1 officer if they choose to resist.

I have always challenged media types to step up to the plate and handcuff a 6' 200lb man that does not want to be cuffed by themselves and then tell me about excessive force.

All is not what it appears, and the camera does not tell the entire story.

You hit the nail on the head Greg. I alwasy enjoy watching the private citizens at our annual Citizens Academy. The little bit of training that we give them is a real eye opener for most.

Every now and then the Police Academy (Idaho P.O.S.T.) will have folks from various civil rights groups attend classes in the Basic Patrol Academy. However I don't believe they've ever had anyone attend the hands on arrest techniques class. Because that would be to real I suppose.

I don't believe I've heard of any of those folks going through the firearms training either. hmmmm.:rolleyes:

garryc
November 12, 2006, 01:25 AM
When you get in a use of force situation you are not focused on what the other officers are doing. You get tunnel vision. Many times I've been asked what this or that officer did and I don't have a clue, or barely remember. It just works that way