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gvf
October 18, 2006, 02:11 AM
I watched Court TV very late the other night, when "Police Shootouts" was shown, I think a regular show. Others may be aware of it, but it really was eye-opening for me who is applying for CCW in NY State. Hence, I have a LOT of waiting time to do various kinds of "research", since I can't fire any weapon until/if the permit is given. I was fascinated to see how true all the statements on the forum were about TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING until your use of your weapon is body memory in a dire situation. This show certainly proves that. And if I get the CCW, this show has convinced me to devote MUCH more time at a range and in instruction than I had planned. It's that or die, I learned from the show. And why even bother with CCW if you're going to die because you're undertrained?

Of course, some situations are shown where officers have time to deploy and plan tactics (e.g. a hostage situation). But in many others you see a cop in a routine car stop, going up to the driver's window and WHAM, he's shot, but with armor vest, still on his feet, running backwards towards his car while drawing and firing in an instant. No time to prepare, no time to think, to fiddle with a safety you never bothered to get really used to, to aim carefully - just a split second reaction. And these are COPS, with training - or at least some of it - we have what we allow ourselves. No more than that.
Anyway, it's a very good show to see the absolute instantaneous nature of self-defense situations. Look for the time it's aired in your area. I was in New York, and it was late: Wed 2:00 am I think.

Not to start a political argument, but I also want to share a reaction I had to watching numerous officers hit in the chest but saved by their armor-vests:
it was that armor-piercing ammo sold to civilians is not a good idea at all. All the cops who were shown shot in this way, from 3 feet away usually, would have died had they been shot with that.

Best

fivepaknh
October 18, 2006, 02:24 AM
Since most shootouts with cop involve bad guys with handguns, where do you buy this armor piercing ammo for handguns? I’ve never seen it. If it does exist, it’s not readily available.

gvf
October 18, 2006, 02:51 AM
There's an FN pistol shoots 5.7x28mm, and the type of that ammo that will pierce armor-vests was outlawed for non-police use, leaving a secondary round that some feel seems to takes away the value of the pistol in terms of general stopping power. Don't know anything much beyond that.

However, my posting is primarily about the value of this show to really bring home some points about training one can read but never understand completely without seeing it actually take place. Leastways, it enlightened me...
Best
GVF

CDH
October 18, 2006, 05:52 AM
gvf, one of the things you should really start to think about concerning "training" has a LOT more to do with avoiding encounters than dealing with them once they've begun.

Face the simple fact that if you arrive at the moment where you must engage with lethal force, you have very likely already made a mistake that put you there in the first place.

Before you over-react to that statement, first buy the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker and read it cover to cover.
If you apply what he offers in that one book, it is very unlikely that you will arrive at a gunfight at all. And if you can't avoid a lethal situation, you will be much better prepared going in.

Carter

mete
October 18, 2006, 06:15 AM
I agree. I took a course by one of the best and I was amased that I knew so little .A good course is worth every penny, it may save your life. Even Elmer Keith said 'the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it'.

blume357
October 18, 2006, 07:29 AM
that's the first rule, 2nd is they are most probably not going to show a cop getting killed... to much legal stuff to deal with.

tlm225
October 18, 2006, 07:42 AM
CDH touchs on a very good point. Police officers are expected to initiate contact except for the occasional ambush. On duty I go looking for trouble (criminals). Off duty I'm like any other citizen with a CCW. Armed and prepared but not looking to mix it up. I will take police action if neccessary but I don't go places that may be dangerous to me or my family. I do my best to avoid being surprised. If I see a potential problem I avoid it if possible and call the on-duty guys if I think it's appropriate.

springmom
October 18, 2006, 09:34 AM
...and don't get your training off a TV show. It's a TV SHOW!!! :eek: You want training, go to a TRAINING. Don't turn on the idiot box.

Springmom

Glockamolie
October 18, 2006, 10:14 AM
quote... " that's the first rule, 2nd is they are most probably not going to show a cop getting killed... to much legal stuff to deal with. "

I know of several that I've seen on these shows, several times. Trooper Coates. Constable Lunsford in east Texas.

If you just want to see some (usually non-lethal for either side) for entertainment value, they have some of these posted on courttv.com. The new episodes come on Wednesday night at 7pm central.

ATW525
October 18, 2006, 10:14 AM
Though I agree that police and ccw situations are different, once the bullets start flying a gun fight is a gun fight. I like those shows for the purpose of seeing how people react both under fire and after being shot.

David Armstrong
October 18, 2006, 04:12 PM
Anyway, it's a very good show to see the absolute instantaneous nature of self-defense situations.
That is the problem with so many of these things, they tend to give false impressions. The LE role is quite different from the non-LE regarding interaction with others, so it is very questionable how much of the scenario-type material is comparable. For instance, most non-LE situtions are not instantaneous, but instead play out over a time period defined in seconds, not fractions of seconds.

Glockamolie
October 18, 2006, 05:53 PM
If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it's going to be just as fast as the typical LE encounter.

gvf
October 19, 2006, 12:08 AM
First, thanks to all who posted, and that reference to the book on avoiding these situations to begin with sounds like a must-read. It would have likely helped me in a dangerous situation I got myself into: attempting to help a woman being pursued by her drugged up boyfriend at midnight , looking like he was going to beat her. I let myself move away from others who were awakened by the screams and watching and towards the area he had chased her to while I was calling 911. He suddenly turned around and walked towards me; when I looked where I was I was near no one else; luckily a good 911 operator heard the guy threatening me and got the cops there in a minute or so. All was OK, but it could have played out differently. I was lucky.

Second, right, CCW is different than a cop's intentions, but the incidents which I was refering to in the show were those of the cop being shot or shot at in a routine situation, surprised, where the first intent of the cops looked defensive: to stay alive by firing back.

Best
gvf

Double Naught Spy
October 19, 2006, 07:12 AM
Not to start a political argument, but I also want to share a reaction I had to watching numerous officers hit in the chest but saved by their armor-vests:
it was that armor-piercing ammo sold to civilians is not a good idea at all. All the cops who were shown shot in this way, from 3 feet away usually, would have died had they been shot with that.

Not all cops shot in the chest from 3 feet away by handguns and not wearing body armor die, so why would wearing body armor and being shot by AP ammo be more lethal? AP ammo is NOT know for expanding and the FN FivenseveN AP round is like a thick ice pick.

The notion of AP ammo is a little flaky. At least for rifles, it does NOT refer to soft armor. Your typical street officer wears soft armor. Just because a round might penetrate soft armor does NOT necessary make it AP ammo. Pistol AP rounds do seem to have enough punch to actually get through hard armor plates, certainly not like rifle rounds. The FiveseveN certainly doesn't. It has less of a punch than your typical 62 grain penetrator round fired from an AR15 and the penetrator rounds don't do much to hard armor.

chris in va
October 20, 2006, 01:19 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Note the CZ 52.

David Armstrong
October 20, 2006, 01:26 PM
If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it's going to be just as fast as the typical LE encounter.
I'm not sure what you would consider the typical LE encounter and how it would relate to this thread, but your basic premise is wrong. If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it is usually not going to be a particularly fast event or occur in a short reaction time parameter.

Rangefinder
October 20, 2006, 02:01 PM
The notion of AP ammo is a little flaky. At least for rifles, it does NOT refer to soft armor. Your typical street officer wears soft armor. Just because a round might penetrate soft armor does NOT necessary make it AP ammo.
To extend on this, there was a discussion in another thread about 17HMR penetration. The 17HMR WILL penetrate soft body armor with high reliability so long as it doesn't hit a trama plate. But I hardly call it AP. My 6mm firing 55 gr. balistic tips will punch a hole so clean in 1/4 plate steel that it looks like it was done with a plasma cutter. I wouldn't call it AP either. AP is a designation to a bullet that is specifically designed to penetrate a specific type of armor, and it generally limits it's capabilities outside of that purpose. Most rifle bullets just by design have a very high success rate of being able to defeat soft body armor, regardless of the type (HP, FMJ, Balistic tip). They travel at much higher velocities, generate higher impact pressure at a more focused POI, and being pointed causes soft armor to spread around the bullet easier than a rounded or flat-point pistol bullet. But even actual AP ammo can be misleading if taken in the wrong context. There is a lot of urban legend/myth around AP pistol bullets. One in particular that comes to mind is the KTW Armor Piercing round---AKA the "cop killer bullet" of the 80's. Myth says it will go through a vest because of its teflon coating---blah, blah. Fact 1: It won't. Fact 2: The teflon coating does NOTHING for bullet performance or penetration. It's a hardened bullet that was intended to go through hardened surfaces without expanding. The teflon protects the riflings of the barrel from wear, nothing more. And so far as I know... Fact 3: There has never been a recorded instance of a cop being killed with one. My little tid-bit on the AP issue...

snolden
October 25, 2006, 09:11 PM
Train, train, train until the entire sequence is automatic. Look for cover ALWAYS. Practice "what-ifs" all the time as you walk/drive around. Keep escape routes open.

Pray for luck. And then "DON'T GIVE UP" even if you are shot. In a close range gun fight you are probably gonna be shot..

For those of you who haven't, try shooting and moving. if live fire while moving is not an option at your range, buy an airsoft pistol and practice in your living room.

I can dump 2-3 rounds simply spinning a left turn from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock. and keep them all on a 8.5 x 11 target at 7-8 yards. Just like any other shooting drill, it jsut takes practice. (sometimes lots of practice :) )

I just hope I have drilled the right drills if that time comes.

Glockamolie
October 26, 2006, 09:03 PM
"If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it is usually not going to be a particularly fast event or occur in a short reaction time parameter."

Huh? I respectfully submit that most of the time, it will be a fast event AND in a short reaction time parameter.

Thugs are going to use the element of surprise no matter who they're dealing with. I don't see a car jacker running the length of a football field while pulling his gun directly in front of you prior to a carjacking. You're going to be sitting at a light and the next thing you know, you're being yanked out and/or have a gun in your neck.

I just don't think most violent crimes happen with enough time to put together what is happening until it's already well into motion. Keeping out of condition white will help you take away some of the surprise, IMHO.

Mark54g
October 26, 2006, 09:28 PM
Just a dumb question here, but what makes you think someone who disregards the law, and humanity enough to shoot an officer or anyone else without provocation is going to respect ANOTHER law about getting any type of ammo. Criminals will get what they want if they have enough time and or money.

David Armstrong
October 27, 2006, 01:32 PM
Huh? I respectfully submit that most of the time, it will be a fast event AND in a short reaction time parameter.
It's a common misconception. Yes, some events are very fast-developing and fast-moving, but they are the exception. A look at the NRA "Armed Citizen" reports, for example, shows that in 80% of those incidents the situation developed over enough time for the good guy to retrieve a firearm from some place of storage off of their body, such as another room, a glove box, a briefcase, etc.
You're going to be sitting at a light and the next thing you know, you're being yanked out and/or have a gun in your neck.
That is probably more of a "failure to pay attention to what is going on" issue than a rapid and sudden attack issue.

SixForSure
October 27, 2006, 05:30 PM
There's an FN pistol shoots 5.7x28mm, and the type of that ammo that will pierce armor-vests was outlawed for non-police use, leaving a secondary round that some feel seems to takes away the value of the pistol in terms of general stopping power. Don't know anything much beyond that.There is probabaly more misinformation floating around about the 5.7x28 than any other cartridge. For anyone interested this should clear a lot of it up: http://www.fivesevenforum.com/. Great bunch of guys, very civilized and extremely knowledgeable.

Para Bellum
October 28, 2006, 01:31 PM
Since most shootouts with cop involve bad guys with handguns, where do you buy this armor piercing ammo for handguns? I’ve never seen it. If it does exist, it’s not readily available.
I will not post how, but you can make it yourself very easily.

cgraham
October 28, 2006, 10:13 PM
"some events are very fast-developing and fast-moving, but they are the exception. A look at the NRA "Armed Citizen" reports, for example, shows that in 80% of those incidents the situation developed over enough time for the good guy to retrieve a firearm"
_____________________

A biased sample: these are the survivors only. How many attacks were not reported in the "Armed Citizen" because the citizen lacked time to respond?

It's nice to dwell on the positive outcomes, but one needs to keep their number as a proportion of all attacks in perspective

C

oldbillthundercheif
October 28, 2006, 10:44 PM
AP pistol ammo is already illegal. There is probably some surplus steel-core 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev floating around out there mislabeled but unless you shoot a lot of eastern-european surplus you will probably never see any.

Any rifle round will penetrate soft body armor. It does not matter if it's a steel core, FMJ, or hollow-point round... It's getting through with no problem.

Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322
The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --


(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --


(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and


(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--


(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:


(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).

David Armstrong
November 3, 2006, 02:54 PM
A biased sample:
And your better sample is.....????? You make do with the best information available, and virtually all sources (even LE) do not support the "sudden unexpected attack" hypothesis.
How many attacks were not reported in the "Armed Citizen" because the citizen lacked time to respond?
Probably less than were not reported where the citizen did have time to respond, as that is the normal distribution.

Glockamolie
November 3, 2006, 08:48 PM
I guess cops are in the white, and attacked out of nowhere, but the rest of us have time to stop what we're doing, go to the safe, get our gun, load it, and THEN take care of the problem. :rolleyes:

Ummm, if the chit goes down in the street, it's pretty much going to be the same.

warwagon
November 4, 2006, 04:02 AM
Please do not confuse the roles of law enforcement, with that of civilian defense.

The fact is, they are completely different, and as so, should be looked at differently.

The flight/or flight reaction is not an option for those who took an oath to protect, anymore than it was on that dreadful day 9-11 01, when everyone else besides the cops, and fire fighters were trying to escape the madness, they were running TOWARDS IT!

Sory for the yelling, but this hits close for me,and you are under no obligation to protect anything as a civilian, unlike those who took the oath, and did their jobs.

CCW for civilians is important to me, and the fewer the folks that confuse the two, is an important function of boards such as this.

Sory for the rant.

Blair
(soapbox surrendered now, next?)

clt46910
November 4, 2006, 09:54 AM
Ok, I got to step in here. Violence encounters can and do, very often, happen extremely fast without any kind of warning.

In my younger days, I was very adventurous and not very careful about my own personal safety. So just from a few of my personal experiences.

Hearing about half dozen running footsteps behind me and then being bashed in the side of the head as I turned around. This while I was walking in early evening in a good neighborhood outside a Air Force Base. An attempted mugging.

Knocking on the door of a new girl I met to pick her up for a date. Door is thrown opened and a large fist smashed me in the face. Then as I was going down, the beating continued with Knees, feet and hands. Very jealous ex-boyfriend

Walking out of a club. Two men suddenly beside me, one holding each arm. Informed me they had a knife against my *******. Comfirmed it with a little pressure. Another attempted mugging.

Man walked up to me and informed me he did not like a friend of mine. I told him I agreed my friend could be a jerk at times, thinking the conversation was over I turned away only to be blind sided in the side of the head. Drunk with a bad temper.

In none of these cases would I have been able to retrieve a weapon and in every case it happened very sudden. Yes, there was a few times when I knew something was going down and had time to react or remove myself from the situation.

But NEVER think it will not be sudden or very violence.

WSM MAGNUM
November 4, 2006, 10:42 AM
Armour piercing ammo is a hyped up term used for bullets that are said to go through vests. This is hype that the anti-gun crowd uses. Almost any type of bullet that is used in rifles will pierce the vests if the bullet has enough velocity and is close enough to the person. The bullets that are dubbed as armour piercing probably have steel cores or something that does`nt mushroom or deflect as easily as copper core bullets. I remember reading an article about this, but I don`t remember the source of it. There really is no such thing as armour piercing ammo. As I said, most hunting bullets on the market now can pierce armour. Some arrogant politician had to give it a bad name to start a fire on banning ammo.

David Armstrong
November 6, 2006, 04:20 PM
I guess cops are in the white, and attacked out of nowhere, but the rest of us have time to stop what we're doing, go to the safe, get our gun, load it, and THEN take care of the problem.
Don't think anyone has said anything even close to that.
Ummm, if the chit goes down in the street, it's pretty much going to be the same.
Ummm, no, it isn't. The dynamics of the encounters tend to be quite different, as the underlying situations are very different.
Violence encounters can and do, very often, happen extremely fast without any kind of warning.
They can, and sometimes do. But most do not. Those that do rarely occur in a format where a firearm would make any difference.

Glockamolie
November 6, 2006, 08:43 PM
Can you clarify what you're saying, or show me the difference between the two types of encounters? Maybe I'm missing what you're saying.

I say this with no "attitude" or ill-will. I'm just not seeing the difference between the two, generally speaking.

David Armstrong
November 8, 2006, 01:16 PM
Are you asking the difference between LE and non-LE encounters? If so, the most basic difference is that LE is required to go into encounters that non-LE are not, and the goal is very different (apprehension versus dis-engagement/avoidance). If thta is nto the issue, can you rephrase the question as I'm not following it.

BillCA
November 8, 2006, 03:16 PM
I'm not trying to take sides on the LEO vs. CCW issue here, however I have a few observations and comments to make.

In LEO engagements, the officer is and should be on high alert when dealing with officer-initiated contacts. In some cases he does not have the option to avoid the situation and must press forth with contact.

In CCW life, the citizen (not "civilian") can attempt to avoid the contact completely. This requires, of course, some degree of general awareness of what's going on around you. The gunfight you avoid is the one you win silently.

Some criminals are brazen in their attacks. There is one video of a strong arm robbery at a Macdonalds wherein the assailant looks like another customer then blind-sides the older customer in front of the cashier. He takes the victim's wallet and leaves quickly. Total time is about 8 seconds.

Not long ago a similar incident occurred locally, where a customer placed his order and when stepping away from the cashier said "Excuse me, please" to three young men who were behind & to his side. All three beat him down, took his wallet and keys, stealing his car as they left. This has become common now in some areas -- swift, brief attacks in well lit public areas with other people and even survelliance video present.

As a CCW-toting citizen, you should be aware of your surroundings and of the people nearby. You should be able to size up the situation and let your first instincts tell you if anyone nearby is a likely threat. Because you are in a public area and others are nearby does not mean you can't be blindsided and rapidly overwhelmed.

James K
November 8, 2006, 03:51 PM
Hi, David Armstrong,

Nice ideas from someone who, I suspect, has never even been in a street fight, let alone a gun fight. I suggest you talk to someone who really has been attacked. It is not like the movies where the bad guys and the victim dance around for a half hour while swapping bad jokes and discussing Shakespeare or the meaning of life. It is not often that the victim has a chance even to cry out, let alone bring a gun into action. And what kind of fast draw does anyone recommend when the muzzle of a 9mm is against the side of your head, or you are knocked down and knifed in the kidneys?

If you are going to carry a gun, understand that you need to know how to use it and be ready to use it. Too many folks carry guns because they think it is "cool", not because they really have a need. I often use the term "serious puposes" when discussing gun carry. Someone asked me once what situations I thought would be "serious." My response was that a person whose testimony had just sent a mob boss away for life, or who had beaten up a member of MS-13 just might have a "serious" reason to carry a gun.

Jim

David Armstrong
November 8, 2006, 06:03 PM
Nice ideas from someone who, I suspect, has never even been in a street fight, let alone a gun fight.
LOL!!! I love it when folks make these crazy statements. FWIW, I rarely find that I have to take a back seat to anyone when it comes to either real-world experience or training. I've been in as many fights (and yes, even a few genuine real-life gunfights) as most have and more than many have even thought about.
I suggest you talk to someone who really has been attacked.
Strangely enough, I have done just that. I've talked to several hundred. Sort of gives me a perspective on what happens that is a bit more accurate than lots of folks.
It is not often that the victim has a chance even to cry out, let alone bring a gun into action.
Nonsense. It's nice to claim something like that, but it just isn't true. The literature is full of examples where the victim cries out, and where victims get their gun into action. In fact, if you trust Kleck, it happens over a million trimes a year.
And what kind of fast draw does anyone recommend when the muzzle of a 9mm is against the side of your head, or you are knocked down and knifed in the kidneys?
I would recommend the same kind of fast draw you would use any other time. The question is not what type of draw to use, it is whether a fast draw plays a significant role in many incidents, or is even the appropriate response to an incident.
My response was that a person whose testimony had just sent a mob boss away for life, or who had beaten up a member of MS-13 just might have a "serious" reason to carry a gun.
Not many folks like that out there, Jim. Interesting how so many resort to a situation that is so far out of the norm to try to support their arguments.

gvf
November 13, 2006, 01:11 AM
I'm the original poster of the thread. Nice discussion! I tend to think of these encounters being fast and out of nowhere, partly due to my experiences in the "bad old days" in New York City in the '70s. I was lucky and never the victim of street crime, but many others I knew were. Often they were victims of professional muggers, and could not avoid many situations in bad neighborhoods because most neighborhoods were bad. I remember one "technique" I heard of several times, a running attack from the rear with a metal pipe, smashing it across the shoulder or arm of the victim, usually instantly breaking bones, immediate heist of the wallet and disappear in an instant during the victim's initial writhing in pain. The other were cooler: wait for someone to open the outer door of an apt., and immediately run in to the vestibule, knife or gun in the back, and cool, calm instructions about not turning around with a promise to not hurt them if they obeyed. They usually kept their word, took the valuables very quickly, gave a last admonition to not turn around or get shot while BG was leaving - and he was off. These guys knew how to make it instantaneous. But there are probably many situations, and this type only one, (and frankly having a CC wouldn't seem to make much difference in either of the above, except that it would likely be stolen).

CyberSEAL
November 14, 2006, 06:27 PM
...and don't get your training off a TV show. It's a TV SHOW!!! You want training, go to a TRAINING. Don't turn on the idiot box.


While I agree watching tv can't be a substitute for real training, the show in question isn't exactly a cartoon...it does contain footage that's used in real police training.

Deaf Smith
November 16, 2006, 09:57 PM
gvf,

Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go". So, dummy me, threw off my hat and glasses and ran after him. In front of him a guy grabed him in a hug. I got up there and put on a wrist lock on his free hand. Between both of us he went down, tried to get up, and then stayed down. A rather large Virgin Island cop came by and cuffed him. My wife, who saw the snatcher throw the purse down, retrieved it and give it back to the woman.

Yes it happed fast. So fast I didn't even think of things like, what if he has a knife? And yes, he could have had a knife and stabbed the other guy, and as he fell I'd have been alone with a rather tall ****** off crook with a knife and me having him in a wrist lock (but NOT head lock or any serious way to keep him from using that knife.) People here would have read about a newly wed who was stabbed to death on his honnymoon has he confronted a purse snatcher....

Anyway, unless you have some real definate tip offs, I'd say most SD situations are fast, supprising, and never go to any pre-set plan.

njtrigger
November 19, 2006, 05:42 PM
If your a civilian and intent on owning/carrying a weapon, then its your duty to seek as much training as you can get preferably from an NRA program.

If you do ever shoot someone, there is a chance that you will be taken to court in a criminal or civil manner. The attorneys will question you as to your experience and training with firearms. If you state that you have no training or dont practice too much with the weapon, then you will appear irresponsible and wreckless. This will aggravate the situation in court.

The NRA does have the following courses that might apply here:

Basic Pistol
Personal Protection in the Home
Home Firearm Safety

Whenever you either fire or display a weapon in public, then there is a chance you will get arrested. If you dont get arrested, the situation will be reviewed thoroughly by the local prosecutor and then you still might get arrested. If the prosecutor doesnt want to pursue it, the people you fired on will probably pursue civil charges. Ultimately, it might end up in court in front of a whole bunch of non-involved people intent on looking at the facts. You might end up in jail and/or paying hefty penalties handed down by the courts.

At the minimum, you should complete the NRA courses and practice at the range at least once every month or two. You should keep a log of the times you went to the range along with the receipts.