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View Full Version : Any motorcyclist close call/draw on a raging cager?


Shorts
October 10, 2006, 07:29 PM
Hi folks, I got to thinking about this scenario after reading an article on a motorcycle forum I'm a member of.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/06/BAGQ6LKAAK4.DTL

Those of you that do ride motorcycles understand that bikes and cagers sometimes do not mix. There are incidents of road rage, and sometimes people get hurt, regardless of who's to blame. In this case, the rider was assaulted and left for dead. The first thing I thought of was "Man, that guy should have been carrying".

Many folks here carry daily, that includes in the car or riding. Leads me to my question, bikers, have you ever had to draw on a raging cager? No, not as a threat, not as a brandish while actually moving down the road, not before you've already tried to leave the situation - ie, you have done everything right to leave or get away from the situation. Have you drawn your ccw as a rider? I'm talking about, at a stop, gas station, or side of the road where an angry person has followed and approached you person to person and it has escalated to the point of decision time - NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD.



I don't mean to turn this into an argument between cars and motorcycles. I know many of us who ride bikes also drive cars. There are good apples and bad apples in both. I do mean to ask the RIDERS if there was ever a day, as a rider, that they were threatened enough while stopped that they needed to draw?

Trip20
October 10, 2006, 07:58 PM
NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD

How might answers from bikers differ from other members of society once the bike is out of the equation?

Bud Helms
October 10, 2006, 08:17 PM
Many folks here carry daily, that includes in the car or riding.:eek: In Misawa? Japan? You are kidding! No way!

BTW, Konnichiwa, Shorts!

To answer your question: Not exactly, but close.

My experience has been that the cager misunderstands the motorcyclist's imperative of how to drive defensively and it is taken as aggression. As a motorcyclist, you either assert control or you get controlled and that is not acceptable. Cagers don't understand that the average motorcycle is like a high performance sports car. The horsepower to weight ratio is way above what most people realize. So cutting over a lane and hammering the throttle is not as dangerous as some think, because if your already accelerating prior to the lane change, there's not the risk of impact that there would be if you were in a cage. Most cars/trucks (cages) can't accelerate the way a bike can. This is related from the aspect of a motor's performance capabilities, and does not take into account the lack of skill a motorcyclist may have. If you ride much, you know this.

Most of the altercations I've experienced have been underway. Those are resolved quickly. When a cager follows you off the right-of-way to a stop, things have probably gone bad. At that point I don't usually speak until the cager has finished speaking. Completely finished. Questions and answers don't work. That angers the cager and validates his attitude. Silence worries them unless they are already over the edge. Alertness is key. If they start to rumble around in pockets or under shirts, it's time to assert, strongly. Action and awareness counts the most.

The only time I have ever come close to drawing in a cage rage situation was an interrupted presentation ... all except pulling the tool from it's holder. At that point it was over. But understand, I had not spoken a word. Speaking takes the shine off your intent ... for you and the perp. Don't talk. Don't wave your hands in defense. Aggress. The effect is unmistakable and lasting. But I recommend not bluffing. Once it's on, it's on. Otherwise don't carry. But in Japan! I am amazed.

Trip20, the answer should be the same, bike or no. Shorts is experiencing cagers' attitude towards bikers (or motorcyclists), not asking whether she should react differently because she rides. You are vulnerable as a rider, until you get stopped and off the scooter.

Bender711
October 10, 2006, 08:30 PM
When he says here I think he means on this fourm.

Trip20
October 10, 2006, 08:33 PM
Trip20, the answer should be the same, bike or no. Shorts is experiencing cagers' attitude towards bikers (or motorcyclists), not asking whether she should react differently because she rides. You are vulnerable as a rider, until you get stopped and off the scooter.

After reading your post I now see what she may be seeking as far as experiences.

However, since she stressed the 'not while riding' aspect, it seemed it was more a thread about bikers vs cagers (and the attitude you mention in your post), than about drawing as it relates to one's bike.

The confrontation between a cager and biker is no different than any other confrontation once the bike and cage are no longer a factor (i.e., at a stop, at the gas station...etc). That's why I asked my question. Hope it wasn't taken in a flippant manner.

Bud Helms
October 10, 2006, 08:46 PM
Bender, I didn't even think of that. You're probably right. :o

Trip, here's a quote: Leads me to my question, bikers, have you ever had to draw on a raging cager? No, not as a threat, not as a brandish while actually moving down the road, not before you've already tried to leave the situation - ie, you have done everything right to leave or get away from the situation. Have you drawn your ccw as a rider? I'm talking about, at a stop, gas station, or side of the road where an angry person has followed and approached you person to person and it has escalated to the point of decision time - NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD.

You noted: The confrontation between a cager and biker is no different than any other confrontation once the bike and cage our out of the situation (i.e., at a stop, at the gas station...etc).

Well, I kind of saw this part: "... draw on a raging cager?" and just assumed she meant what she said. 'Guess you have to ride to understand that the attitude on the road gets carried to the rest stop. These people are still driving when they pull off to confront that stupid biker. But still, the use of deadly force is a trip you don't want to take unless you are in a corner and can't get out.

[Edit: flippant ... I didn't take it that way. ;) ]

VIEJO
October 10, 2006, 09:06 PM
I quit ridin' on two tires in 1972 for reasons of my own, related in part to my wife being an Emergency Room Respitatory Therapist who treated two hundred dying bikers in her career and she asked (not told) me to PLEASE retire the chopper.

She just now, last month told me it's cool to get a little 1200 Sportster when I'm ready. She made peace with Harley Davidson.

I had cars follow me, badger me, throw stuff at me, etc ................ and I never had to pull, at the worst of times. I am (was) a battle hardened GI, but always tried to keep a conciliatory nature just because I had a belly full of fighting. I was always able to talk them down and I'm glad. I'm closing on age 60 and I'm free on the streets. I ain't in prison.

Trip20
October 10, 2006, 11:17 PM
Well, I kind of saw this part: "... draw on a raging cager?" and just assumed she meant what she said. 'Guess you have to ride to understand that the attitude on the road gets carried to the rest stop.

I purchased my first bike in January of this year. In fact it's getting the clutch replaced this Thursday (don't ask). I have no problem understanding that the attitude gets carried to the rest stop.

My point was that it seemed odd to look for experiences of other riders only, considering riding has nothing to do with the parameters of the scenario.

Asking in general about experiences of TFL members who've had to draw with out the added criteria of them having to be a biker (i.e., one non-raging cager drawing on a raging cager), would draw equally relevant experience to discuss.

Anyway, this discussion isn't going where Shorts had intended so I'll back out since I have no relevant experience to put forth. At least our discussion kept it at the top of the list. ;)

Shorts
October 10, 2006, 11:23 PM
Whoa guys, I see we're all reading the literal words, scooch off the path a bit ;)


Bud, good explanation on your experience. You're reply is exactly the kind I was looking for, just experiences.

Trip20, your reply did sound flippant, this isn't my first rodeo. But to answer, the reactions aren't different because of what vehicle or bike you're riding. As you came to, I am just looking for experiences.

No, no handguns in Japan, that is not news to me. Thanks again for reminding me of what I don't have, what I don't get to see, use or handle until year 2009! :rolleyes: :o Because I have temporarily left the US does not mean I quit thinking about it all together. I do plan to return and hit the ground running on all the things I had to put away for this tour.


DH and I just started riding this past March. We did so because 1) we've always wanted to, and 2) we didn't have guns as a hobby so we NEEDED a new fix. You gyus wanna see a one-armed motorcycle setup???

Riding is a whole new experience. Bud hit the nail on the head with "a driver misunderstands a motorcyclist's imperative to drive defensively". For those who have never ridden, they don't understand 'the motorcycle world'. Riding is risky, no matter how much you minimize. In learning these new rules and etiquettes and lifestyle, I'm finding there are a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes, just as there are in the gun world. Both hobbies are misunderstood, but they both have their loyal followers who are the good folks to be around.

Side note:
I find it odd, I have several forums I frequent, for various hobbies 4x4s, motorcycling, guns, model airplanes....all these thoughts and experiences are all mixed up in my mind and all do affect each other, yet they all co-exist. When I go to one forum and try to cross-breed one hobby with another, the dialect of each forum masks the true meaning of my intention, just general thoughts and discussion, not to knit-pick technicalities.


Edit: did I put this in the wrong forum?


Where is mgdavis?

OneInTheChamber
October 10, 2006, 11:32 PM
I've never ridden on the street, but have raced motocross my whole life and can say this:

A person on a motorcycle should never be in a lethal force encounter off of his/her bike because they should never stop. A bike will easily out manuever and out run a car. You can go places a car can't. You can go faster than a car can. Why pull over and risk a confrontation? You risk the possibility of getting run over a "raging cager".

Compared to getting hit by a car; a .45 is a pea shooter.

Trip20
October 10, 2006, 11:43 PM
Shorts, in jest I just can't help but to request you start a thread in Handguns General Forum asking what is the best caliber for Raging Cagers.

Pretty please? :)

Shorts
October 10, 2006, 11:44 PM
Well sometimes you do need to stop. Gas station, lunch, rest room break. You don't always know what cager is mad at you and who isn't.

Though, like you said, if one is aware that does help you make the escape.

Trip, did you take offense to the phrase "raging cager"? You shouldn't, and if you did, quit being so passive-aggressive about it and say it. Raging cager describes the angry driver in a vehicle who's trying to harm you. A cager is simply a driver in a car. A stupid cager is a stupid drive of a vehicle who is on the cell phone, reading the paper, and basically inattenttive to driving and the others around them.

Does the term 'sheeple' ring a bell?

Trip20
October 10, 2006, 11:58 PM
Shorts - I thought the :) was used to signify no ill intent. I was honestly poking fun at the often repeated, "what's the best caliber for _____" threads, not the term 'raging cager.'

I'm not even sure how I could become offended by the term even if I tried.

If I've got a problem, I'll let you know don't worry. There's not much passive about my personality.

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 12:01 AM
Dude, that's what I was confused about - "Trip20 didn't use to be much of a pitbull when I was around alot...what in the world?". I apologize for coming off harsh.

lol I'll read the smileys better :)

mgdavis
October 11, 2006, 12:56 AM
Well, here I am. I don't know how much help I'll be. As far as carrying while riding, I keep my Glock 19 in a Maxpedition Jumbo Versipack when I'm out running around, or in my backpack if I'm wearing that (next to inaccesible that way, unfortunatly). I've never had a confrontation while carrying, I tend to practice avoidance. The worst agressive driver to date was the guy who passed me in the dark on a curvy road for doing the speed limit last Friday.

I'm not sure I'd be able to manipulate my zipper and weapon well with my riding gloves on (makes note to try this in the morning). The setup I have is the best I got at the moment. I don't think my IWB carry would work, I'd be nervous of my jacket riding up above the weapon. A tank bag could be a possibility, or a J-frame in the jacket pocket. Big zipper pulls would make things easier.

I've only been riding a couple months, so I'm still getting everything sorted out. I hope to find a better solution to carrying on the bike. Until then I'll make due with what I got.

Several posters on TMW said that the gear they wear would help with a hands-on confrontation. I'm partly in that camp. I always wear a full face helmet, armoured jacket, and gloves with armoured knuckles. All this gear is cumbersome, however, and would probably hinder as much as help in a fight.

Hope this helped, I'm really no kind of expert. If I think of anything else tonight I'll put it in here tomorrow.

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 01:52 AM
Good thoughts on the gear. We'll be packing when we ride, at least we plan to. Finding the right holster and whatnot as you're going through now will be the big issue. You mentioned gloved hands and ease of access, I hadn't even thought about that. It would be difficult, even with thin summer riding gloves.

Another issue to think about and nail down: interstate travel w/gun

User14
October 11, 2006, 02:02 AM
If the bikers could muffle the sound, there wouldn't be such altercations. Not to flame, but is it really necessary?

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 02:05 AM
So you'd like to harm motorcyclists on loud motorcycles?

And yes, you do mean to flame. You got a chip on your shoulder and decided this thread would be someplace to insert it. Any good input or do you just feel like dropping a poop in someone's lap?

Finally, I don't speak for other riders, so asking me a question and expecting my answer the represent every rider is retarded. Assuming all motorcycles are loud is retarded. It's like generalizing and saying "guns are dangerous and should all be banned, anyone that owns one is a bad person and a killer".

TheGrouch
October 11, 2006, 03:16 AM
<IMHO>

I observe more irresponsible bikers than regular motorists any day of the week. Most irritating is the fact that they can be irresponsible and when one of them is injured they roll out their own special interest groups with slogans like "Kill a Biker - Go to jail". I cannot say this about EVERY biker, but some thing about the two-wheelers seems give their operator a sense of invincibility.

</IMHO>

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 04:22 AM
Grouch, your input provided no pertinent information to the post whatsoever.

Start your own bike bashing thread elsewhere.

mega twin
October 11, 2006, 05:48 AM
Having ridden on the street for about 40 years now, I learned a long time ago that to survive on two wheels you have to ride defensively,and invisibly. It seems as most cagers either don't see,or don't recognize a scoot for what it is. As far as the rage end goes,it may be part of the fight or flight reflex because they were startled,or just because they are idiots,bike and cages.:) You should be aware of any consequence to your actions ,whatever the situation. Mike

odessastraight
October 11, 2006, 06:45 AM
I ride and have ridden regularly since the mid-60s. Presently I have a daily route that covers 150 miles and I usually take my bike. Nope, I've never been close to drawing my CCW on an irate cager. Usually they'll just yell out their window and flip you the bird. As I've aged I've learned not to aggravate the situation with my own pride and bluster. I try to enjoy the ride and leave the road warriors alone. To stop and face one would be nothing but looking for a fight and If one ever follows me to a stop for a confrontation I'll be civil and leave the area as soon as possible.

The closest I've come to drawning my CCW was while trying to nap in a rest area in the wee hours of the AM and some lowlife decided to go through the gear on and near my bike. He didn't see me stretched out close to the bike...until I woke up and confronted him. Motels are much better places to catch Zzzzzzzzzz when on a long road trip.

I have a nice leather riding jacket with a built in holster pocket, but I don't use it. I carry a snub revolver in my front pocket when riding (actually I carry like that all the time). The revolver stays secure and is always there exactly where I've come to expect it to be.

To those who have ill feelings about bikes/riders I'll just ask you to obey traffic laws. Let me ride in peace and I'll do the same for you.

rick_reno
October 11, 2006, 08:20 AM
Nope, been riding cycles for over 40 years and have never pulled a gun on someone in a car. Sorry, if a car is getting me to the point where I'm about to pull a weapon I get out of their way and away from them. On a bike I'm more agile than they are and can move away pretty easily. The problem I see in drawing a gun is if you're within handgun range - that car can easily take you out of the equation. Best bet is to get away from them.

bartonkj
October 11, 2006, 10:10 AM
I've been riding for several years and have never had a confrontation while riding. When on my sport bike locally I was never around long enough for anyone to confront me. When on my sport bike on a road trip I guess I never did anything to **** anyone off. When riding my Harley I'm more sedate whether local or road trip and am not aware of ******* anyone off. Now don't get me wrong - I know people often get upset at motorcyclists (I think it is often jealousey just on general principle when they see bikes making better progress through traffic than they are) but I've never been aware of it being directed at me. If I ever become aware of it being directed at me I will do my best to leave the situation as quickly as possible.

In Ohio CCW is prohibited in vehicles (most stupid thing I've heard of). You have to either carry openly in a vehicle or you have to have it locked away. I don't carry openly when I ride. I don't really want to carry openly and I don't have any gear to really carry openly outside my leather jacket, etc... (except for the shoulder holster for my S&W 629 Classic .44 with 8 3/8" barrel - hmmm, that might be interesting sometime when I have nothing better to do).

ceetee
October 11, 2006, 02:27 PM
I feel I have to interrupt this thread for a minute to ask a question, just for my own personal eddification. The closest I ever came to being a biker was riding my friend's dirt bike around when I was a pre-teen. So...

What is it exactly that bikers do that causes drivers of cars to get enraged enough to start a gunfight?

Bikes are loud, yes. Big mufflers would get a rider's leg burned. Other than that, a bike riding into my truck would probably not hurt me very much. When barely-adult riders of rice-rockets zoom by in formation doing triple digits, I don;t get mad. I just hope they know how to drive. So what's the deal?

ATW525
October 11, 2006, 03:10 PM
What is it exactly that bikers do that causes drivers of cars to get enraged enough to start a gunfight?

I must admit that I'm wondering the same thing.

BamaXD
October 11, 2006, 03:12 PM
Weaving in and out of rush hour traffic when the road is a parking lot? Does irk me, but definitely not enough to start a gunfight. I have seen some motorcyclists staying put in a lane like a standard "cage" though. -BamaXD

bartonkj
October 11, 2006, 03:49 PM
What is it exactly that bikers do that causes drivers of cars to get enraged enough to start a gunfight?

Not everyone gets mad. However, there are people who don't like motorcyclists with loud mufflers. There are people who have certain preconceived notions about the type of person who rides a motorcycle. There are people who are jealous that motorcycles can split lanes (either legally or illegally) to move through traffic more quickly. There are people who are jealous that motorcycles can manuveur through traffic quickly because they are small and/or fast. There are people who get upset when they see reckless behavoir that some motorcyclists demonstrate. There are people who don't think motorcycles should be allowed (as there are those who don't think firearms should be allowed). There are those who think it is fun to mess with someone that is vulnerable. There are those who get very upset at the slightest little thing that has nothing to do with motorcycles. The list goes on....

mgdavis
October 11, 2006, 04:14 PM
I messed around with my Maxpedition setup this morning. I found that where I wear the bag (rather high, to prevent it moving around much) makes it very akward to draw from. The zipper pull is difficult to feel through my gloves, so I may add a monkey fist or some such to it at some point.

Drivers get mad at riders for the same reasons they get mad at other cagers. Riders are also harder to see. IIRC the story Shorts linked to started off with the cager and rider both trying to use an intersection at the same time and the rider almost getting run over.

Bud Helms
October 11, 2006, 04:27 PM
rick_reno: ... have never pulled a gun on someone in a car.
What are you talking about?

Trip20
October 11, 2006, 04:47 PM
If the bikers could muffle the sound, there wouldn't be such altercations. Not to flame, but is it really necessary?

Cybert (http://thehighroad.org/member.php?u=36126) the eunuch survivalist, I was wondering how long it would take you to migrate from THR to TFL.

springmom
October 11, 2006, 04:58 PM
OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo, Trip20, you win the gold star. Who else could this have been.

Calling the Three Billy Goats Gruff....we have a troll under the bridge.....

:barf: :barf: :barf:

Springmom

stephen426
October 11, 2006, 05:08 PM
OneInTheChamber and rick reno have it right. Most bikes can dust a car easily, or at least out maneuver it (think pull over and stop on a dime while cars tend to have much greater stopping distance). Unless you **** off someone in a really fast sports car, you will most likely NEVER be forced to pull a gun. Now if you get ****** off yourself and want to start a fight (how many will actually admit to this rather than taking off), don't use the excuse you could not out run/out maneuver the car. :rolleyes:

I don't ride a bike since the drivers in Miami are crazy. We got ranked as the worst city in America for road rage. If you happen to be in certain parts of the city, you can almost be assured that the driver is packing. Besides, a certain part of the population, probably the majority (which shall go unnamed lest someone call me a racist) is known for being very hot blooded. They will mow down a biker in rage and not even think about it. I think you guys get the idea why riding a bike in Miami is quite risky.

I had an incident of road rage where some jerk in an SUV tried to run me off the highway. I just tapped my horn at him since he was changing into my lane while I was in his blind spot. He swerved out and then purposely swerved into my lane. If I did not slam on the brakes, he would have slammed me into the dividing wall of the highway. I changed 2 lanes over and accelerated away from him while drawing my gun. I did not point it at him, but figured it to be prudent given that I was dealing with a lunatic. The gun was out of sight but at low ready just in case. He sped up and paced me. When I slowed down, he slowed down. I was very fortunate that an off duty officer saw the whole thing. He pulled his car in between us and stuck (what I presume to be a badge) out the window at the guy. He then waved me on and told me to keep going. If the off duty officer had not been there, I am afraid to think what might have happened. If he pointed a gun at me, I would have definitely shot him. I have since gotten a much faster car so I could probably leave most idiotic road rage drivers in the dust. ;) :p

One other thing to consider is calling the police immediately. Try to get the tag and report the aggressive driving. If there is a patrol nearby, they can stop the person immediately. I assume you would need to have a headset and an enclosed antenna for a cell phone to be of any use while you are actually riding. Bluetooth headsets probably work the best.

Trip20
October 11, 2006, 05:12 PM
Bingo, Trip20, you win the gold star.

Every once in awhile I surprise myself. Those few moments of satisfactory bliss are usually interrupted by my lovely Wendy reminding me that I am nothing with out her. I hate it when she's right. :p :cool:

I'm sure ArcherandShooter can relate. :D

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 06:48 PM
Good discussion folks :)

odessastraight, that would have been blood-pumping to wake up and find someone riflng through your stuff, especially on your bike. Glad that incident moved on.


I don't really want to carry openly and I don't have any gear to really carry openly outside my leather jacket, etc... (except for the shoulder holster for my S&W 629 Classic .44 with 8 3/8" barrel - hmmm, that might be interesting sometime when I have nothing better to do).

^^ Now I'd love to see (and do) that! Want to start a pool on how many LEOs respond to the biker-with-a-gun call?? :D


Yeah, this story I linked to ended up a physical altercation after a close call in an intersection. Cagers don't like motorcycles for a lot of reasons - attitudes, riding styles, the style of bike in general, loud pipes.... What cagers don't understand is what is it like to be riding vulnerable on the street on two-wheels. Small things or incidents that are no big deal to a car will kill a person on a motorcycle very quickly. So, when riding everything must be treated like a hazard waiting to happen. Every car is the one that will take you out. Every intersection is where a car will turn in front of you. Every sidestreet is where the car will Tbone you. Every car behind you will tailgate. The gravel and wet leaves on the curve will dump you. Every off-leash dog will dart out and chase you down the street. The deer crossing the road will kill you quickly. The list goes on and on. This gigantic list of hazards, if you aren't riding defensively, and even when you are, you still get tagged once in a while. What is really scarey is learning to ride on the street. Anyone remember how scarey driving in traffic was for the first time?? Multiply that by 10 on a bike. With all the hazards to be aware of, an angry cager trying to start a fight is the last thing you need. Great advice above, ignore it and walk away.

stephen426
October 11, 2006, 07:17 PM
Yeah, this story I linked to ended up a physical altercation after a close call in an intersection. Cagers don't like motorcycles for a lot of reasons - attitudes, riding styles, the style of bike in general, loud pipes.... What cagers don't understand is what is it like to be riding vulnerable on the street on two-wheels. Small things or incidents that are no big deal to a car will kill a person on a motorcycle very quickly. So, when riding everything must be treated like a hazard waiting to happen. Every car is the one that will take you out. Every intersection is where a car will turn in front of you. Every sidestreet is where the car will Tbone you. Every car behind you will tailgate. The gravel and wet leaves on the curve will dump you. Every off-leash dog will dart out and chase you down the street. The deer crossing the road will kill you quickly. The list goes on and on. This gigantic list of hazards, if you aren't riding defensively, and even when you are, you still get tagged once in a while. What is really scarey is learning to ride on the street. Anyone remember how scarey driving in traffic was for the first time?? Multiply that by 10 on a bike. With all the hazards to be aware of, an angry cager trying to start a fight is the last thing you need. Great advice above, ignore it and walk away.

Shorts,

With a post like that, it would seem that riding a bike is an insanely stupid thing to do. I fully agree. Why is it that you still strongly defend the bikers though? You admit that many of them ride very agressively (reckless abandon for their lives in my opinion) yet "cagers" have no right to be upset when the get cut off and have to swerve to avoid killing them?

I was driving behind a pack of motorcycles on an organized ride and they were using bikes to block the intersections so that the rest of them could continue through the red lights. This was not police escort, but just some riding group. I just move over 2 lanes and continue past them (city road with 4 lanes in each direction). One idiot decides he does not like me passing the group and decides to come to a stop in front of me. Who the hell is he to obstruct traffic? If it were a police escort for a funeral, I would gladly pull over, especially if my passing would interfere with the procession. Do bikers often give "cagers" reason to get ****** off at them? I certainly believe so.

Another issue is how agressive most of the bikers drive down here. Just because they are on high performance machines does not mean speed limits and basic traffic laws do not apply to them. Do "cagers" get ****** when the bikers ride with total disregard for the law? It certainly irks me. Frankly, I don't care how much more dangerous it is for bikers if they choose to ride like idiots. If they respect the road (and noise pollution laws for that matter), I will extend to them every courtesy and even give them wider berth to ensure their safety.

Frankly I believe I am going way off topic responding to some of these posts so I will go back to my original assertion that the performance and handling characteristics of a bike preclude the need for armed confrontation in practically every case. Those who do draw often do it out of agression or anger rather than the genuine need to defend themselves.

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 07:25 PM
Wow, lots of angry people around here.

Riding is inherently risky - everyone who gets on a bike knows that. But its also fun and exhilarating! I defend "them" because I am one, I do ride, and with one hand no less. But if you would have read the whole thread, you would have seen that. In a hurry to jump on a bike bashing bandwagon??

Again, I could throw out the same arguments sheeple have for guns - they're dangerous, they kill kids, elevate crime levels... so why do you have a gun? Yes, I keep throwing back to gun arguments, because as fellow gun enthusiast, you hear those arguments the same as I do yet we still participate in shooting hobbies, collect guns and maintain is it safe if you follow rules, respect the gun and what it can do - am I right? So, why do you play with guns if they're so dangerous? You see what I mean?

Stereotyping all bikers into on lump is like sterreotyping all gun nuts into one lump. As I said in my original post, there are good apples and bad apples in every crowd.

Now, if you want a bike bashing tread, start your own post, like I told the other guy. You've hit no part of the topic I asked for. It looks as though you too have a chip on your shoulder about bikes? What is your getup? Do they lanesplit and you get to sit in traffic? Does your wife or girlfriend not let you get one? What?


Weaving in and out of rush hour traffic when the road is a parking lot? Does irk me, but definitely not enough to start a gunfight. I have seen some motorcyclists staying put in a lane like a standard "cage" though. -BamaXD


That's always a big one, lane splitting. Some do it, some don't. I never agreed with it. Though the argument put forth is that it is dangerous for a bike to be sitting squashed between two vehicles in standing/idling rush hour traffic. Reason for that is inattentive angry driver behind them, possibly yacking on the cell phone and fumbling 3 different tasks instead of paying attention to the road. That inattentive driver then steps on the gas and smashes said biker into the car in front, injuring and possibly killing biker.

I can see not wanting to get run over from behind. But I also see weaving in and out of traffic as also asking for trouble. So, pick your poison. Besides, lanesplitting is only legal in CA, AFAIK. Most that support lane splitting say hey only do it when traffic is under 15mph. Whether or not that's justification, I don't know. I've never been in those highway parking lot situations yet so, I couldn't say.

Again, there are good apples and bad apples. A VERY SMALL list of a few examples.

(Possibly NWS) Examples of bad cagers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pILnQmpWG4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZluAhQXfVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL5fDlRHqgU

(Possibly NWS) Examples of bad bikers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFl-sWBj0Fk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMA33DE95ZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-dAFy7dxZA



ORIGINAL THREAD ASKED FOR EXPERIENCES PERTAINING TO CLOSE CALLS OR DRAWS AS A MOTORCYCLISTS FROM A CAGER (MOTOR VEHICLE OPERATORS FOR YOU PC POLICE)

Blackwater OPS
October 11, 2006, 08:59 PM
Maybe it's off topic, but one of my best friends is in ER/ICU right now. He wrecked on the way to school this morning. I don't have the details but I know it's not good. Honestly I think if someone wants to ride a bike they are crazy, but it's their choice and I'll give them a wide berth on the road. I don't want to be the guy that kills one of them, either on the road or because they decide to escalate a situation off of it.

stephen426
October 11, 2006, 09:08 PM
Now, if you want a bike bashing tread, start your own post, like I told the other guy. You've hit no part of the topic I asked for. It looks as though you too have a chip on your shoulder about bikes? What is your getup? Do they lanesplit and you get to sit in traffic? Does your wife or girlfriend not let you get one? What?

Shorts,

last I checked, the originating post was about having close calls or having to draw on a "raging cager... not about the danger of bikes, gun/bike comparisons, bashing anti-bikers, lane splitting, yada, yada, yada, etc... Thats called hipocracy my dear. Since I am not a biker and have already spoken my mind, I will leave you guys to enjoy this thread and move on. ;)

Trip20
October 11, 2006, 09:42 PM
Deleted and PM'd instead. Don't wanna keep this sucker any more hijacked than it already is.

VIEJO
October 11, 2006, 09:44 PM
Man, did this thread ever get ugly ..............

Let's all go drink a shot, two beers and shoot some pool. Leave your rides in the parking lot.

How does this crap happen among civilized men?

Shorts
October 11, 2006, 10:24 PM
Man, did this thread ever get ugly ..............

Let's all go drink a shot, two beers and shoot some pool. Leave your rides in the parking lot.

How does this crap happen among civilized men?

That's my thinking too. I simply asked RIDERS for their experiences on any close calls with angry motorist, you know one of those "how close have you come to drawing" kinda threads. I guess people decided it was bike bashing time to get things off their chest. If that's what they read from the original post, they need to go back and read again. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking!


Shorts,

last I checked, the originating post was about having close calls or having to draw on a "raging cager... not about the danger of bikes, gun/bike comparisons, bashing anti-bikers, lane splitting, yada, yada, yada, etc... Thats called hipocracy my dear. Since I am not a biker and have already spoken my mind, I will leave you guys to enjoy this thread and move on.

Stephen, if you understood the question, what was the junk in your reply? Pot shot?

You're correct, it wasn't about the dangers, guns/bikes..etc, but LIKE YOU people replied NOT to the question I asked but to the issues THEY have with bikers. Since the post had been hijacked of course, I simply responded to their questions and moved on. If you can't read the bold print, I have and continue to stress RIDERS HAVING CLOSE CALLS WITH RAGING/ANGRY/UPSET/VIOLENT/PERSISTENT CAGERS. If you cannot tell the difference b etween a "raging cager" and "cager", you should at least ask for clarification. Raging cager is an angry, mad, upset driver. A Cager is simply a driver of the vehicle. Now, which are YOU?

marlboroman84
October 11, 2006, 10:35 PM
I'll just say I used to ride and miss it alot, but it's to dangerous in a metro city to ride for me. I have never been in a situation where I had to draw on anyone because I didn't have a permit or a gun at that time anyhow, but I've been run off the road and messed with way more than I ever liked.

I think of it this way; alot of people who have never ridden a motorcycle don't know how they handle and what all is fully involved in riding one in major traffic. I give bikers a wide berth because, if they wreck,get a flat,whatever I don't wanna hit them. I look at all this the same way I look at carrying a gun or driving a car. If you act like an idiot on a bike you can't be surprised if people get ticked at you for it. If you pull a gun on someone unwarranted or act careless with it don't be surprised if you get it taken away or end up in jail. If you run someone off the road or cause a biker, or any other vehicle for that matter, to get injured you should have your license pulled. Just my 2 cents.:)

Heist
October 12, 2006, 12:32 PM
I was driving behind a pack of motorcycles on an organized ride and they were using bikes to block the intersections so that the rest of them could continue through the red lights. This was not police escort, but just some riding group. I just move over 2 lanes and continue past them (city road with 4 lanes in each direction). One idiot decides he does not like me passing the group and decides to come to a stop in front of me. Who the hell is he to obstruct traffic? If it were a police escort for a funeral, I would gladly pull over, especially if my passing would interfere with the procession. Do bikers often give "cagers" reason to get ****** off at them? I certainly believe so.

I saw someone pull a stunt like that outside of Knoxville. Group of riders, intersection blocking, and a guy pulling out in front of a F350 that he didn't like passing everyone, came to a hard stop.

The F350 fishtailed all over the highway, nearly took me out in my lil import suv, and still ended up coming back into the lane and punted the idjit through the divider and into oncoming traffic. DOA. Darwin won.

Drive defensively but don't get stupid. I think that cyclists have a dangerous enough world as it is without making it worse for themselves. I'm paranoid already about idiot cagers when I'm inside one, I don't know how I'd handle being naked on a bike.

Trip20
October 12, 2006, 03:25 PM
...I don't know how I'd handle being naked on a bike.

:D

Ok, I'll leave that one alone.

Heist
October 12, 2006, 03:47 PM
FEELING naked.

oldbillthundercheif
October 12, 2006, 04:11 PM
Sure normal people on motorcycles are mildly dangerous to themselves but they are not nearly as bad as a scooter in the hands of a dimwitted kid...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/zarganuts/scooterstunt.jpg

rem33
October 12, 2006, 04:19 PM
I skimmed thru this thread, i usually don't read posts that are a novel.
Rode my first motorcycle in the 60's been riding on and off ever since.
Bought a Harley lil over a decade ago, it has over 60k on now. It's loud.
So I have a lil experience.
The roads are full of nuts if your on a bike, be careful
You CANNOT out run a cage always,
People treat you different from honking and waving o out right anger toward you.
I don't carry around town but have considered it.
Be careful,pretend you are invisible,avoid all trouble,you are very venerable on two wheels.

Bud Helms
October 13, 2006, 06:10 PM
Many of the responses here are characteristic of the attitude bike riders face on the road.

It's also true that many riders on the road today cause their own problems, by their behavior on the road.

The only time there should be any reaction from a pack of riders to your passing them, as long as they are back safely in one lane and not still passing, is if they are a funeral procession.

It's not uncommon for a pack on a run to block traffic at intersections. It's for safety. Causing an attitude in a cager is counter-productive, but the problem is there may be no indication until it's too late. I have gotten a tad of an attitude with other riders, while riding myself ... they are called squids.

As for the question, "Why ride if it's so dangerous?" I can only reply that it's not an exercise in operational risk assessment or risk management. For some it's for fun. For others it's a passion and for still others, it's a lifestyle. At some point, you have to say, "If you don't understand, I don't know how to explain it. And if you don't want to do it, you never will understand."

govmule84
October 13, 2006, 07:28 PM
...I drive a savage. It's all cool and souped up ...and still has a top speed of 92 mph, with a tailwind. A Geo Metro can outrun me.

Draw a gun, though? Forget that noise. I can outhandle you, if I can get to a twisty road.

As far as the folks complaining about the intersection blocks...Try and bear with me. You're on some sloooow bike and riding reasonably close to legally. Your buddies on hyperspace GSXR's and the like are passing everyone. When you are somewhere you don't know, and you can't see your people, life gets bad quick. I know it sucks and all, but try and see the flip side of the coin. You can't even use a cell phone to call people. That, and many bikes are reeeeal short legged (a hundred miles on a tank). If you ain't near gas, that bike gets real heavy for the pushin'. Might just be something to think about.

As to the dude who has a gripe about the pipes...umm, yeah. it's a motorcycle. in a lot of states, it's legal.

-L.

tools
October 13, 2006, 08:10 PM
I'm a cager. I don't ride anymore. The best advice I can give is: Don't get involved 1x1 with a cager (or anyone else). It simply isn't worth it. If you can learn to live and let live - even if you swallow your pride -- you'll be better off.

When ridiing, you can usually just drive away. DO that, and imagine later how you would have pulled your 1911 and vaporized cager's head. Doing this in private after the fact is much wiser than in public.

odessastraight
October 14, 2006, 08:45 AM
Shorts,
That guy going through my stuff at the rest area wasn't quite so high that he didn't realize that he was in grave danger of me blowing a big hole in his COM. Nothing helps using a good "command voice" like when your fingers are tickling the grips of your .357. I had it in hand, but didn't have to pull it. He mumbled something like "sorry" and got out of my sight, pronto. This wasn't the only example of close calls at rest areas for me and now that I've got a little more spending $ (and hopefully a bit more common sense) will just find a motel when too tired to ride anymore.

I like your thread and it's made me think a bit about how I do ride and carry. My system of pocket carry works for me. I can't think of any realistic situation where I'd ever have to draw while actually operating the bike, so CCW in my pocket will be easy to get at (standing, or even while "stretched out").

I've read all the post, and unless I missed it, I haven't read any coments about your question related to riding double. To me a situation with a raging cager while riding a pasenger would at least magnify the problem more than just X 2 ...heck probably by a magnitude. I don't ride double anymore, anyway, but lots of folks do and might give your thread here a bit of thought.

Shorts
October 14, 2006, 08:31 PM
I've read all the post, and unless I missed it, I haven't read any coments about your question related to riding double. To me a situation with a raging cager while riding a pasenger would at least magnify the problem more than just X 2 ...heck probably by a magnitude. I don't ride double anymore, anyway, but lots of folks do and might give your thread here a bit of thought.


Good snag on the riding double aspect. Since I'm still ironing things oiut on my bike for solo ride, when we do go out I ride pillion on DHs bike. So, all my time thus far on the street has been on the back. The feeling of vulnerability as a passenger is very high. 1) I am still putting myself to the normal risks roders face, and 2) I am not in any control of evasive/defensive action. A passenger is merely in charge of staying on in the proper position regardless of what's going on around.

2up on a bike is less manueverable on a bike compared to just the rider. True, skill set should be the same and usually is. But the bike is doing a little extra work. Not usually a whole lot, but a pillion is certainly an additional concern for the rider, especially if its a loved one :o

Thus far, we haven't been involved in any kind of angry confrontation while riding or stopped for gas/rest break. I think most of that is attributed to the culture of the Japanese people, and us not being jackasses on a bike. I do think back in the States the chances of a confrontation would be higher. We have however, experienced often the hazards of riding. That's going to be a given on any day one goes out. I don't think shouldering the abuses of an angry driver should be one of them. But alas, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.