The snub .38 at war

[Fer]

I hope some vietnam veterans can help answer my question.
The oficial side arm during the vietnam war was the 1911 .45acp. I have seen a couple of movies and heard stories where mostly pilots carried snub revolvers. I understand that maybe the armed forces was flexible in letting the servicemen carry what they felt comfortable with, but there are two things that I dont undrestand.
1. If I where a pilot and got shot down I would want all the fire power I can carry. Why use a .38 when I can carry a much more powerfull caliber, with quicker reload capacity, and easier to carry a whole bunch of spare mags. Why would a pilot in that war want a .38? after all he aint in the supermarket parking lot, they are coming after him with AK´s 47 and other heavy stuff.

2. Why would the armed forces allow their men to carry a a snub revo for the reasons above descrided?

We have agreed in previous posts that the snub revo is a perfect defence weapon for You and me, we go out to the store with 5 or 10 rounds or what ever in case we encounter a perp or couple of BG´s, so we cand defend our selves and buy time so we can get out ASAP.
So does it make sence to carry the same revo we use to go to the supermarket in war?
I am not against the revo or the armedforces or anything, just a question that I had in my head and hope you could clarify a little.

Thanks,

Fer

[Anibal]

I saw a old movie of the former President of the USA George Bush Senior when he was plane pilot in the World War II after his rescue in the sea when he was shot down, and he was armed with a .38 spl. revolver (not snubie, bur a revolver anyway).

Maybe the pilots used the .38 spl. revolvers because of the weight.

Anibal.

[STLRN]

At least what I was told about revolvers and Naval Aviators was they were preferred because they also acted as signalling device when loaded with tracers. I guess the theory was that they could be fired skyward and the gap in the cylinder allowed water to drain out when pointed up.

[Carlo]

Fer, the choice of a sidearm is not as easy as it can be computed with a pocket calculator. Multiplying the in gun rounds by the caliber only gives you part of the picture, certainly you want your pistol to be reliable, then you need something that is not a burden in the kind of serice you're in, maybe accuracy is an important parameter too, good pointability is for certain and having a familiar piece is a must. Consider that .38 revolvers have been used by first line and special forces units: OSS operatives were known to use .38 S&W victory models and colt bankers, tunnel rats used a good number of plain .38 as well. British Army officers and machine gunners carried .38 revolvers and, although overlooked, the British Army has never been a card playing club, if you know what I mean. When the Brits went to the 9mm, it was mainly to issue the same round to pistols and smg's. Revolvers have done well in all sorts of tests (see Chuck Taylor's artic tests, to name one) and generally deploy more than average accuracy (I hear that, in the jssap tests, the US air force S&W mod. 15 trashed any other gun with a minimum cluster of one inch at 50 yards). One of the best feats I'm aware of, pertaining to handgunning, was performed with a service revolver, drawn hastily to dispatch 3 armed opponents (I can't tell details).
Handling and safe handling ease are also particularily important, when the Commandos landed for their first mission, to tell an example, general J. D. Slater accidentally discharged his cocked .45, guess what would have happened if they had been in stalking situation.

Cap

[Tom2]

I think they carried alloy frame snubs in most cases. Like a model 12, I think. I have seen them wearing the shoulder holsters and snubs during combat training missions. Suppose they carried that up till the time they got the Berettas. Aircraft crew chiefs used to tell me a BS story about the pilots. If an airbase was being overrun by the enemy, supposedly, they were to evacuate the fighter aircraft immediately, and then the pilot was supposed to shoot the crew chief in the head at the very last, so he could not be captured and interrogated. Was all BS but that was something they liked to tell everyone. ANyway, I suppose the revolver could be used to take game or something in the wilderness. Nothing a pilot could carry would be much use against determined searchers with long arms. Guess it was a security blanket effect, or perhaps you ambush someone with a rifle with it and take the rifle?

[cochise]

We had S&W Model 15 2.5 revolvers while I was active duty, '68 - '72.


I DON'T KNOW WHY. JUST DID.

Issued items at the time.

[SamD]

Carried that Model 15 for 19 of my 26 years and never felt underrgunned (except for the lousey 130 gr FMJ ammo). We issued those 2" M15 to Aircrew and OSI agents. They worked just fine.

Lots of 38s issued during the WWII. Stick actuators got 'em because they can't really control anything that is on the ground

Sam

[Freetacos]

maybe alot of it was just old surplus guns and ammo

[SamD]

Most were made new for the military.


Sam

[liliysdad]

The biggest reason is that a downed pilot does not wage war, he evades and escapes, unitl rescued or until making his way to friendly territory. The less unnecessary weight the better.

[Fer]

Well,still kinda fuzzy. The argument of reliability and accuracy is not strong enough or else all the other branches of the armed forces would have been equiped with revolvers.
My personal guess is that maybe like someone posted it would be more comfortable to carry a snub and I dont think many pilots wanted to get shot down or expected to live after shot down.
On the other hand in the movie black hawk down the two snipers(not pilots,just mking a point here) that where defending the crashed choper did a great job with their pistols when the ran out of rifle ammo, that was until they ran out of pistol ammo too, it was a movie but I dont think it was too far from what really happened. But I guess trained men can do what was shown in the movie, the reload technique of shouting out "Reload" so the other could provide cover is very well adapted for semiauto reload, with a revolver it would be a little slower. In situations like that is where I think a revo in combat is out of place.
I love revos I got two, and carry them as my defence weapon first choice before my semiauto .380

[Webleymkv]

A former Co-Worker of mine was a Navy Pilot. He told me that they used beanbag rounds to avoid penetrating skin of the aircraft should the weapon need to be used inside the plane. I highly doubt that such a round would feed in a semi-auto. My other hypothesis is that it would be nice not to have hot brass flying all over the place should the weapon be deployed inside the aircraft.

[tlm225]

The Smith & Wesson model 15 was the standard issue sidearm in the Air Force until replaced by the M9. Security Police ,aircrews and others carried them. For a brief time OSI agents carried 1911 .45s that had been converted to officers model size by the USAF gunsmiths at Kelley AFB. It's not surprising that an aircrew members might chose to "unofficially" pocket a snubby.

As far as needing more firepower than a .38 snub if shot down, the last thing you want to do behind enemy lines is draw attention to yourself (gunfire tends to do that). The best course of action is to stay undetected until rescue arrives (if they can). I doubt that having a semi-auto and 10 mags would help much with the opposition coming in by the truck loads.

(USAF 1975-1995)

[ribbonstone]

It fit in the small uppper pocket of a flight suit.

[walter in florida]

I was in the Air Force, but not a Air Crew member and I carried a 38 S&W with a 3 or 4 in barrel. (So long ago, I do not remember the barrel lenght)

[Arizona Fusilier]

I'm not an expert on this subject, though I do know .38s were often issued items to aviators for a great part of our military history.

I once saw an "new in box" Ruger with a 4" barrell and lanyard loop, that was billed as an alternative to the S&W. I'm guesing it was Vietnam era; sorry, can't remember the model number or any other detail.

Any ol' aviators (and I mean that with all due respect:) ) capable of corraborating that?

[garryc]

We had S&W Model 15 2.5 revolvers while I was active duty, '68 - '72.


I DON'T KNOW WHY. JUST DID.

Issued items at the time.

My uncle was a ranger in nam. He did three tours. He always carried a snub 38 tucked away. From what I understood, he bought a new one for each deployment, the sweat and humidity would eat them up in a year.

[croyance]

A F4 Phantom can carry plenty of weight, as anybody who has seen one deliver its payload can tell you. Weight was not a major consideration.
However, pilots are not infantrymen. It takes plenty of training to learn how to fly, much less fly in combat. If they encounter enemy infantry and are sighted, a 1911 wouldn't save them if the .38 Special won't. Really, even with the sorter ranges of combat in the jungle, 7.62x39>.45 ACP. Even with a rifle of some sort, by training they still couldn't take on an army.
They must have been given survival and evasion training though. In that case, a small .38 Special makes sense. The guy that isn't used to day long hikes isn't weighed down. He can take small game with it and might survive an individual encounter with it. So he might live long enough to get back.

[Mike Irwin]

My understanding was that weight WAS an issue, but not in the way that you might think...

If a pilot had to eject, supposedly the less weight he had on his person, the less liklihood he would suffer an ejection injury being blasted out of the plane at high speeds.

[357 Plato]

If you are shot down behind enemy lines I don’t see what a .45 acp can do that a .38 snub can’t.

If a .38 is good against one or two BGs in a parking lot it might be a good choice against one or two from the opposition who is between you and your way back to the rescue team.

One other consideration: If you are shot down you might only have one good arm. And it is much easier to use a revolver with only one good hand/arm.

Just a thought.

[Hammer It]

It fit in the small uppper pocket of a flight suit.

Hello
Member Ribbonstone & Mike Erwin seemed to hit it on the head here. The Snub Nosed .38 specials were given to Pilots as a last resort defense weapon. If you remember the originals they were made of Complete aluminum. The cylinder's were deemed unsafe for constant firing at a later time, so this revolver was called back and destroyed to keep civilian owner ship almost impossible. Some did survive and are now a small fortune to own if seen being sold. These issued revolver's weighed less than 10.5 OZS. so it made sense if the Pilot had to eject this revolver added little discomfort on a hard landing compared to the Weight of a 1911 and several mags. I further suspect the fact that they were totaly aluminum may have meant this revolver was not detected as easy as a carbon steel issued hand gun, by Opposing forces if taken into custody, they hid rather well, and could be ditched without much notice from opposing forces, if needed. It fit perfect in the Pilots flight jacket pocket and was supposed to be a last life effort weapon of choice back then if needed, Close up and Personal was the intent of these snub Nosed .38s, and one could not Hide the size and weight of a fully Loaded 1911 easily, are the reasons I have read that The Air Force issued these to Pilots. ;) Regards, Hammer It.

[silicon wolverine]

In some cases the .45 autos were reseverd for ship security and the revolvers were given to pilots. The navy was also behind the other forces in adopting the newest weaponry and getting it out onto ships. If a ship was issued .38s it kept and used them. According to "Weapons of the Navy Seals" SEALs as late as grenada still had .38s in inventory.

SW

[Dave R]

My father-in-law was a carrier pilot in 'Nam. He carried a snubby S&W .38. Why? His wife bought it for him before he left. Dunno if it was "legal", just passing on what he told me.

[gfen]

FWIW, in the infamous picture of the Vietmanese officer executing the VC spy, he's using a S&W Model 38 Bodyguard provided by the US.

[Para Bellum]

I'm not much into the 1911s. But aren't the old duty 1911s pretty unreliable especially compared to a S&W revolver?

[tipoc]

They were issued due to the weight. For the reasons explained, bailing out. The overall weight of the aircraft was a consideration as well. Helicopters, evan medical evac units had and have considerably more impressive armaments onboard than hand guns. Weight on any type of aircraft is always an issue. The personal sidearm of any crewmember is down quite a ways on the official list of priorities of what should be on an aircraft.

If you had to bail out of a plane what would you rather have on you (along with maps and some survival tools) a 1911 with three mags or a snubby and extra water and food? The snubbys made sense.

tipoc

[gordo b.]

Not a 'Zoomie' but; I was issued a 2" model 10 S&W on my 2nd tour of RVN in 1970 with a duty uniform of unmarked fatigues as a 97B .The gun was a little rusty in spots , but overall good condition. Of course I picked up a Swedish Karl Gustav real quick from an operative leaving for home.:D
When I got stateside, in plain clothes and out of OCS in 1972 I was issued a Model 12 S&W , which I had to qualify with semi annually. The issue shoulder holster (Bucheimer) was a joke and I got a good 7 Trees rig. At my last duty station at Arlington Hall, before leaving the military for a civil service job the next desk over in 73 ;) ,we were required to keep them in the Arms room , when not deployed.

[LSP972]

My dad was a carrier pilot in WWII. He was issued a Victory Model .38, as were most naval aviators. Some jarhead pilots got 1911A1s, but just about everybody that my dad ever saw was handed a .38 and six ball and six tracer rounds.

The army bought a sack full of 4" .38 revolvers (M-10 and M-12) for the same reason the M1917 .45 ACP revolver came into being; there weren't enough service .45 semi-autos to go around. And since the aviators of that era (60s) were not highly regarded by the big brass, being seen as nothing more than aerial jeep and truck drivers, the 1911A1s went to the "real" troops and the pop guns went to the air crews.

These revolvers served a long time; I finished up my service at 4/12 Cav at Fort Polk in 1977, in D Troop Blues, and our arms room had a bunch of M-12s for the aviators. All the airedales I flew with, from 1970 to 1977, in various parts of the world, had revolvers as personal issue weapons. Those with other stuff had scrounged it on their own.

In 1990, a friend who was a Guard Huey pilot got deployed to the Gulf. He was issued an M-12 4" square butt.

As for the snubbies in use among pilots and/or grunts, it was strictly a personal deal in my experience. The great majority of aviators I ran across, both in Nam and stateside, could not have cared less about weaponry. But a few did, and in 1970/71 an AirWeight 2" J-frame was good as gold among these aware pilots and grunts alike. ANY 2" j-frame was worth its weight in dope, and if you had one of the few stainless M-60s around... well, you could name your price.

Of course, this was all army pilots. I suppose the air force pilots were more concerned with not stepping on each other's fingers while reaching for the coffee pot, etc.... :D

[Tom2]

Well OK what I saw the AF pilots wearing on occasion was for sure a snubbie K frame. I assumed it was a LW like a 12, but they could have been steel framed, I never asked to handle one! One guy I knew had a dad that was in Nam, on the ground. Maintenance type, I think. He got a cheapo snub from home, it was either an RG or a Charter Arms 38 snub. But I think it was the Charter, little better quality. Blued. He did use it to whack an infiltrator that was trying to steal a gov't vehicle. Guess the mil. issue 38 ammo did a good enough job on the black pajama guy. He still had that gun, and showed it to me. That was an unofficial combat area use, I guess you could say. Wonder if the snub nosed Colt Commandos were used overseas in WW2, or just for stateside?

[Para Bellum]

What do pilots get now? Glock 19?

[AFshooter]

What do pilots get now? Glock 19?
That's a joke right?

In combat zones they get an M9 just like every one else.
I have heard of some 130 crews bringing along their own toys.;)
My aircraft never leaves friendly skies so all we get for defense is broken pieces of airplane provided we survive the crash (no chutes). The Cops that ride up front bring the usual SF gear (M9, M4 w/ extras)
(AF)

[Tom2]

Beretta M9, to the best of my knowledge. Might be better served by one of the compact Sigs that they issue to investigators and such.

[Qwiks draw]

There are many good books on helicopter pilots using 38s in Viet Nam. A number of authenticated documented stories have copters landing to extract wounded or evacuate soldiers from being over run. On many occasions one of the crew used a snub to kill enemy who were trying to get aboard or kill everyone present and the only weapon deployable at the time was the revolver. Enemy soldiers were shot at the door or onboard and then thrown out and the chopper then got safely away. Crew personnel usually had at least one hand busy doing one thing while drawing with and shooting with the other. In the narrow confines of a Huey helicopter a revolver was the only weapon many times that could be used instead of a CAR15 or other weapon. It was handier to use, in the opinion of the pilots, to use even over the 1911. There were pilots of course who used semi autos. Semi- autos might not be issued at certain times due to unavailability through supply channels.

[ribbonstone]

IF memeory serves after so many years, didn't the Soviets put Gary Power's silenced .22 on display along with his other gear (U-2 pilot shot down over the USSR)? That seemed a better survival weapon than I'd have given the Gov. credit for....wonder if they issued it or if it just got carried along by "accident".

Lot of snub nosed .38's found their way over to Vietnam; they were the hot ticket for personal defence...esp. as the majority of guys with one were not supose to have a handgun, making concealment an issue.


I've no real clue how the AF ended up with .38 revovlers. Must have established a set of "needs" that were unique enough; would be interresting reading to see their test criteria that resulted in a .38specail revovler shooting that pittiful FMJ ammo. being the winner.

[AmesJainchill]

There's that treaty against soldiers using hollowpoint ammunition in wartime.

[Pezo]

I dont honestly beleive if an enemy force were coming at me with ak-47's a 1911 would be much more help to me than a .38 snub.:confused:

[LSP972]

The Air Force got .38 revolvers because Curtis LeMay didn't like the idea of his sentries guarding nuke-loaded bombers and missle silos with half-loaded (Condition Two) 1911A1s. When he became Chief of Staff in the 50s, he did something about it.

So he took one step forward and two steps back. The dismal performance of the ammunition is what prompted the Air Force to begin looking for a replacement in the 70s; and THAT program is what culminated in the adoption of the Beretta 9mm for all the armed forces.

The original JSSAP (Joint Services Small Arms Program) was built upon the core of Air Force CATM guys at Hurlburt Field in Florida who were looking at 9mm semi-autos.

Or, so I was told...;)

[Bud Helms]

I'm reading a lot of reasons why U.S. pilots in Vietnam preferred the .38 over the .45 Gov't.

'Haven't noticed the real reason posted yet. It was ISSUE. As in, "Here's your sidearm." No preference involved. I only know what the USAF pilots were issued. Some units had a forgiving and understanding Commander who didn't get in the way of what aircrew thought they needed for survival. But some were by-the-book, and that meant the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece. Then, a lot of flyers didn't know they were undergunned. They drank between flights and then flew. Came back again and started all over.

I was not a pilot, but as enlisted aircrew I was issued the .38 and carried it when needed until the M9 was issued. We all did in my unit. right up into the 90s. No options by reg in the units I knew. Besides, the idea is to not need it! ;) E&E ... what's that?

Walter, I don't remember if it was 3 or 4 inch either. I'm thinking 3.

[juliet charley]

When qualification consisted of fifty rounds every three years, revolvers made sense (early 90s AF qualification requirement). :)

[Bud Helms]

We qual'd every year. It still wasn't enough for those that shot only that course once a year.

[DeathRodent]

I agree with the earlier post in that there probably weren't enough .45s to go around so the air force got the .38 revlovers - rem. most of the air force is not trained for combat - they certainly weren't when i was in during the late 70's.

I trained with an old S&W M&P 4" barrel no model number on it but it was the same as a model 10 - the pilots at the training sure goofed around a lot and you could tell the range master was worried they would cause an accident - maybe the lack of training is another reason they weren't issued 1911's.

An interesting item I was told by older non-com's who seved in theair force in vietnam was the outside perimeter around the air base was gaurded by Marines, inside that was a perimeter of Army inside that if the base was under attack were air force and they would be ussued M16's but NO ammo because they weren' trusted with live ammo - from some of the guys I met in the AF I believe it!

[juliet charley]

It had always been annual qualifications until the last time I qualified (mid-90s), and they'd changed it to every three years. Did you ever get to qualify with the M16 firing .22LRs?

[Bud Helms]

No, never did, but I did shoot the M-16 Simulator. That was surprising fun. I think you are correct about the qual cycle in the 90s though. Some AFSCs qual'd every year, some did not. I think handguns qual'd every year. Some long gun quals were every year, all were not ... depended on your job.

[ISP2605]

I retired as SFS commander. CATM was under SF. When I was enlisted I spent a lot of time on the range augmenting the CATM folks. Wasn't a bad job but got pretty old after a while.
I sure know what DR is talking about with the pilots, or as we referred to them "Zipper suited sun gods". I'd rather have a range full of newbees than the pilots. One year we were preparing for an overseas deployment and the pilots came out to qualify. Very first batch of them started cowboying the M-15. Doing the fast draw and spinning them on their fingers. That did it, we closed the range and sent them packing. A major was their senior person and he begged us to qualify them, even ordering us at one point. I was a SSgt at the time and the CATM guy was a TSgt. He held his ground against the major and wouldn't open the range. No qualifying and those boys weren't going to fly nor deploy. We knew how the Wing King felt about shooting. The only things we think the Wing King liked more than shooting was flying, drinking, and sex. He was always at the range shooting some kind of new gun. This was back when CATM came under Combat Support and not SF. CSCC called us in to get our story and there was the Wing King and the squadron cmdr from the flying side. None of them were happy. WK said he had all those guys who had been on the range that morning pulling extra duty and they'd be on the range the next morning with him. Any of them screw up or give us problems he was going to handle it. That next morning was probably the best range day I'd ever seen. Couldn't have asked for a better behaved bunch.
Bud is correct. USAF quals depended on your AFSC. Cops were suppose to be twice a year. Air crews once a year. Some CE folks were once a year. Others might be every 3 yrs. When I got in there was an old SMSgt next door in contracting who got in just prior to Korea. He had fired an M-1 Carbine in basic and that was the last time he'd fired in over 20 yrs. Contracting wasn't a deployable AFSC so he never fired.
CATS (initially called FATS) was fun to play with. We had ours set to train with M-15, M-9 and 1911 for handguns. For long guns M-16, M-4, and when I retired we were waiting for our sniper rifle program. Also had program for the M-2, altho we never used it, and the LAWS which we had ordered a program for the AT-4 when I retired.

[LSP972]

Guess my post wasn't clear, Bud. The army issued .38s because there weren't enough 1911A1's to go around, and the aviators were way down the totem pole in terms of small arms requirements.

The Air Force security police got .38s because a very powerful general officer said so.

I have no idea why the Air Force pilots got them.

[BonnieBlue]

1. If I where a pilot and got shot down I would want all the fire power I can carry. Why use a .38 when I can carry a much more powerfull caliber, with quicker reload capacity, and easier to carry a whole bunch of spare mags. Why would a pilot in that war want a .38? after all he aint in the supermarket parking lot, they are coming after him with AK´s 47 and other heavy stuff.

2. Why would the armed forces allow their men to carry a a snub revo for the reasons above descrided?

If there are several people coming at you with AK-47s and heavy stuff, it won't make any difference if you have a .38 or .45. The sidearm , particularly for pilots, is more of a psychological weapon anyway--security blanket type thing. If you were confronted by one or two of the enemy at close range it might have some use. But generally your best chance to get away is just hide and work your way back to your lines (not always feasible for pilots, who are usually far behind their own lines). Unfortunately, most of the time, their best best to stay alive is to surrender.

[obiwan1]

Para:

I NEVER had a problem with a duty 1911! One must just understand that it's a pistol, not a small AR/AK/FAL.


USMC '68-'70

[leopard1]

Good book came out a few years ago about tunnel rats during VN conflict. Mentioned that some selected .38 revolvers over .45 autos due to noise and blast in confined spaces.

Based on their experiences and my personal preferences, I carried a revolver in Iraq when searching tunnels for WMD and explosives. Carried it in a fanny pack above ground to keep the dust out of it. Never had to use it, fortunately.

Another very valuable role of sidearms during the recent Iraq conflict was security while riding in vehicles. There were a couple of incidents in Kuwait before the invasion where U.S. personnel (servicemen and contractors) were ambushed when they stopped at intersections in Kuwait City. Handguns were easier to have available while riding in vehicles than rifles, although rifles were carried inside as well. The SF guys I worked with carried their M-9s, but none of them made derogatory remarks about the revolver. They accepted it as an effective weapon in the right hands.

[Bart Noir]

I know a retired pilot who flew A-4 Skyhawks over North Vietnam for 2 tours. Prior to his first deployment there, he heard a lecture by a pilot who had been (temporarily) captured by some very primitive hill-billies somewhere in Laos. He didn't even tried to pit his snubbie against the big ancient rifles.

So my acquaintance went to war with a Browning High Power in his survival vest. I'm still trying to buy that good-shooting pistol from him.

And at the Colt Collectors show in Louisville this last weekend, I held a Colt Aircrewman. It was on the table of an auction company and hence no actual price tag, but please handle every thing you want! I had heavier toy pistols as a kid.

Bart Noir

[croyance]

Those in charge might also have believed that issuing a rifle would have encouraged airmen to be heros when they aren't even properly trained infantrymen. As some have said, many pilots only shot guns to qualify.
When a guy only has a pistol and sees guys with rifles, he's more likely to be sensible and hide or surrender.

[Deaf Smith]

Yes snubbies were used in Vietnam. Even SLA Marshal wrote about one chopper pilot who knocked off a Vietcong with his snub .38 while still being seated in the cockpit (the pilot, not the cong.) Marshal wrote it was a feat like shooting a target off the back of a galloping horse.

Also the tunnel rats perfered revolvers (snubs and 4 inchers) for going down tunnels. The .45 gave to much blast. They would fire burst of 3 shots,then and the gun back to the next guy as he passed up another revolver. That way, they never had to worry about having a half empty gun in a shootout in a tunnel.

As for the effectivness of the six shooter, well if you are by your lonesome behind enemy lines and surrounded by a squad, well the revolver is a good war trophy but not as good as a 1911. Otherwise, don't fire at a squad with any pistol if you can help it. Tends to make them mad. It will work if you are Alvin York, but if you ain't, you will end up like Custer.

[juliet charley]

Marshal wrote it was a feat like shooting a target off the back of a galloping horse.
That might depend on how close the Cong was. :)

[Gary Conner]

Deaf Smith's comment about Tunnel Rats carrying .38 snub noses reminded me of a fellow who I knew in Arkansas who told me why he preferred them when he "was volunteered" to be a Tunnel Rat.

He said he preferred them because they wouldn't jam from mud and dirt like automatics would in those conditions and said it was the most dependable "fist fighting pistol" you could carry down there.

[BlueTrain]

Revolvers were issued to non-aviation units, as someone else remarked, at least when I was in the army in the mid-'60's. In fact, a field manual from around 1960 lists all sorts of revolvers, all either Colt or S&W, and even included some in .38 S&W, which they quaintly refer to as ".38 Regular." I don't recall at the moment if 1917 revolvers were still listed but I don't think they were.

I served in an infantry division headquarters and we had a handful of .38 Colt Detective Specials and we even had two Colt Pocket Autos.

I have also seen a Ruger with a lanyard ring chambered in .38 S&W but that wasn't in the army. As far as British use of handguns goes, at one point in the 1950's, only two revolvers were authorized in an infantry battalion. By the time they changed their mind about issuing handguns, I think a lot of their revolvers had been sold off.