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LSU12ga
October 3, 2006, 11:49 PM
Somone was reciently mugged outside my apartment complex at 8pm. using the main office and the internet i intend to start a night watch, of about 6 men, 3 pairs to patrol the area for a few hours each evening.

my question to you is,

1. does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to orginize this.
2. what should we be equipped with. I was thinking maglights, radios and cell phones.
3. SHould we carry guns/ weapons?

THis guy was mugged at gun point, and i dont want to see it happen to anyone else here. There have been 3 muggings already, and a double shooting. i want to take my neighborhood and my campus back.

Note: im not trying to start a militia here, but a neighborhood watch.

marlboroman84
October 4, 2006, 12:15 AM
This is only my advice and you should check your local and state laws before doing any of this.

As far as equipment I would have each member carry the following:
1.Maglite,Surefire,or strong equivalant flashlight.
2. Radios. Get everyone to chip in and buy a pack of 2. You can get pretty good ones at wal-mart,target,sportsman's warehouse,etc for under 50 dollars easy.
3.Cell phone to dial 911 if necessary.
4.Optional, but you could get t-shirts,sweaters,or jackets printed up identifying yourselves as neighborhood watch.

As far as carrying weapons, if you have a permit to carry I don't see the problem, but I'd carry a more assorted array than you would when you're normal carry. Carry OC spray,an expandable baton,a taser,etc and use the gun only as a last resort. It would be possible for an attorney to try and paint you as a vigilante in court.

A great thing to do would be to get the local PD in on it. Let them know your plans, give them information on your group and what you intend to accomplish. If anyone is a LEO or military that participates the better and you could always get training for some of the group leaders. Most ranges offer OC spray and baton training and there are always good self-defense classes to be found.

Depending on your plans I would consult with local PD and an attorney concerning apprehending a suspect, i.e citizen's arrest should you decide to carry handcuffs. Also check on using OC,batons,tasers,firearms.

Best of luck to you.

Fn-P9
October 4, 2006, 12:56 AM
m my area atleast, you can call the police and sometimes they can step up patrols in the area. You might even get them to drive through the complex. Even if it is only a couple of times a week they add your apartments to a deputy's patrol route, it may help. Police presence.

If you get some people to patrol but not enough. Get one person out to "patrol" while walking a large dog. Reduce the amount of people accually patroling

Syntax360
October 4, 2006, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by marlboroman84.
As far as carrying weapons, if you have a permit to carry I don't see the problem, but I'd carry a more assorted array than you would when you're normal carry. Carry OC spray,an expandable baton,a taser,etc and use the gun only as a last resort. It would be possible for an attorney to try and paint you as a vigilante in court.

My only problem with this would be it would open you up to a lot more second guessing in the event you did have to use lethal force. There was a pretty recent thread about tasers, and a lot of LEO types expressed a certain apprehension about qualifying with them because it adds yet another dimension to the use of lethal force. There's already a mountain of things any decent lawyer will be able to say you should have done to avoid using the pistol - why give them another argument?

I would carry flashlight, radio, phone, OC, and pistol would all be fine. I wouldn't complicate things further by carrying a collapsable baton (illegal to carry in many areas) or stun gun/taser. IMHO, you shouldn't need the Bat-Belt for a neighborhood watch program.

oldbillthundercheif
October 4, 2006, 10:33 PM
Good luck.

I would not mess with the batons, though. Cops would have fewer, less pointed questions for you if you sprayed someone down rather than beating them into stew. They would appreciate the effort if you did it right, though. Probably...

springmom
October 4, 2006, 11:41 PM
Great idea. Do make sure to coordinate with the local police. If they see a couple of guys walking the complex at 2:00 a.m., make sure they will have a way of knowing it's you and not the bad guys. Tee shirts or jackets might be useful, since in an apartment complex you may not have the chance to know and be known by everybody (some do, but lots don't) and it would also be good for any neighbors to also know you're the good guys.

Hooray for you for wanting to do something proactive! ;)

Springmom

BillCA
October 5, 2006, 12:15 AM
Equipping at least one of each pair with a cell phone is a good idea. Be sure they know how to use it one-handed. Also, if the phone has a built in camera, practice taking night photos of cars and license plates. You want to know that you can capture license plates quickly and relatively clearly when necessary. This way if you have some suspicious character who's a little mouthy and you photo his plate, he'll probably leave the area and not return.

Some kind of t-shirt, jacket or hat will help local residents and the PD recognize you. Don't get too jacked up about making contact with suspicious individuals. Remember that your job is to provide extra eyes and ears for the residents and to call the PD when things look unusual. Sometimes having the BGs know that you're watching, even from 50 yards, makes them want to be elsewhere.

You might also consider getting administrative authorities to put up some signs at driveways that say:

Warning!
Video Survelliance Area
This facility uses covert video survelliance equipment in common areas.
Illegal activities will be reported and video provided to authorities.

azurefly
October 5, 2006, 12:47 AM
Limited commentary (not going to go near the legal pitfall topic):

- If you are getting Mag lights, get the MagLED lights -- they are FAR brighter than the original incandescents. You can get a 3 D battery version for about $40, and it doubles as a club, as everyone knows already. The difference is the brightness, and the fact that after you use it as a club, it will still illuminate.

- If you go with a chemical spray, get those big-ass cans of it, not the keychain sized ones. If you have to spray someone, hose that *&@^er!

(My feeling about carrying a gun is, I would NOT be without my own, personally.)


-azurefly

oldbillthundercheif
October 5, 2006, 12:56 AM
Mag lights? Are you guys cavemen? Get at least one of those nuclear-powered Shure-Fire torches.

azurefly
October 5, 2006, 01:06 AM
I'd rather swing a 3 D MagLED than a Surefire. For one thing, the MagLED costs about 1/5 what the Surefires cost; for another, it's bulkier and easier to konk heads with.

For a night watch, I don't think we're looking for compactness and high light output. The MagLED gives pretty good light output, but there is a reason it is not compact, or I'm sure Mag Instruments would have put it on a diet and fed it CR123A's. ;)


-azurefly

LSU12ga
October 5, 2006, 01:37 AM
thanks for all the suggestions.

I am meeting with the landlord tomorrow and we are going to discuss possiblities. The local and campus PD have said that they will increase patrols, but i dont think this will be enough. There was another amred robbery at another student complex, this one further from campus but still significant.

Hopefully this is just a crime wave that will pass and not the new standard. It seems that crime ebbs and flows in this city.

Samurai
October 5, 2006, 09:11 AM
Run this by a lawyer. If it's on a campus, you might be able to go to the administrative legal counsel for the university.

I know that in Tennessee, having a Handgun Carry Permit does not (at the moment) give you the right to carry a baton, knife, or other kind of weapon. (Legislation is in the works to change this, but it's not here yet...) Your jurisdiction might be different, or it might not.

Make no mistake. You are proposing vigilantism. You are a citizen, interfering with a criminal activity with force to deter the criminal activity. In some cases, a citizen's arrest is perfectly legal. But, you need to be very careful, and play this one by the books.

marlboroman84
October 5, 2006, 09:47 AM
My only problem with this would be it would open you up to a lot more second guessing in the event you did have to use lethal force. There was a pretty recent thread about tasers, and a lot of LEO types expressed a certain apprehension about qualifying with them because it adds yet another dimension to the use of lethal force. There's already a mountain of things any decent lawyer will be able to say you should have done to avoid using the pistol - why give them another argument?

I would carry flashlight, radio, phone, OC, and pistol would all be fine. I wouldn't complicate things further by carrying a collapsable baton (illegal to carry in many areas) or stun gun/taser. IMHO, you shouldn't need the Bat-Belt for a neighborhood watch program.

Agreed. That's why I said to be careful, because a lawyer could paint you as a vigilante group should something get out of hand. I love the bat belt comment though lol. That was good Syntax.:D

Samurai, thanks for showing up. I was hoping a lawyer I liked would post lol. By the way, I thought it was legal to carry a baton in Tennessee? I know they teach classes at the ranges here in Memphis for it. Gimme some feedback on that one.

Samurai
October 5, 2006, 03:28 PM
Yeah... I've heard about that. There was a big fuss in the legislature about the prohibition of non-lethal weapons like "clubs," and I think they've just started some special licensure for carrying a baton. But, I think the licensure is pretty limited in availability (mostly police and security personnel).

But, collapsible batons are NOT covered by a standard Handgun Carry Permit, and they are (or at least WERE very recently) considered VERY taboo for personal defense.

I'll look around and get back to you on that...:)

Samurai
October 5, 2006, 03:57 PM
Mmmkay.

At a glance, and without much in-depth analysis, it looks like in order to carry a "non-lethal" device (club, baton, etc...) in Tennessee, you need something called an "Unarmed Security Officer/Guard" license, which you get, somehow through the Tennessee Commissioner of Commerce and Insurance. The ENTIRE Title 62, Chapter 35 of the Tennessee Code Annotated is devoted to how, exactly, you go about getting one of these licenses. But, it looks like you have to be affiliated with some kind of a security company to get one...

Ok. No WAY am I going to read all that code and NOT get paid for it. :rolleyes: Besides, I'm not a real lawyer (8 more days, EEEK!), so you guys would need someone qualified to explain all that mess to you.

But, my original conclusion stands. DON'T go out and carry an asp in Tennessee if all you have is a CCW. It's a C-misdemeanor.

skeeter1
October 5, 2006, 05:51 PM
If you are getting Mag lights, get the MagLED lights -- they are FAR brighter than the original incandescents. I'll second that. If you have an older Mag lite, you can always update with an LED bulb.

http://www.leddynamics.com/EverLED/

40 bucks, but good for 10,000 hours, and they are VERY bright. Mag lites make very good shillelaghs.

Speaking of which, you might want to consider a "real" shillelagh:

http://www.fashionablecanes.com/store/05095.html

I've got one, and I defy any LEO to tell me I can't have it. Anywhere, anytime. It makes walking easier, too.

marlboroman84
October 5, 2006, 06:07 PM
Thanks Samurai!

Ok. No WAY am I going to read all that code and NOT get paid for it.

Well since you looked it up, I'll pay for a trip to the range and some ammo if you're ever down Memphis way brother.

azurefly
October 5, 2006, 06:29 PM
skeeter, there are lots of LED upgrade "bulbs" available from various manufacturers for use in retrofitting Maglites. Mag itself sells a 3W LED for use in its older incandescent large (C or D cell) flashlights. They are known as "drop-in" upgrades.

The Mag-brand drop-ins for the C & D cell lights are not as expensive as many of the aftermarket versions.

As for the Mini Maglite (2 or 3 AA cell), those flashlights were wholly redesigned and now have current-regulating circuitry to max out the power and run-time of the smaller lights. While there are drop-ins available for the 2AA Mini Maglite, I have tried the Nite-eyez one, which has 3 LEDs, and found it to be only so-so. I have since purchased a real 2AA Mini Maglite and found it to be far superior, at least in brightness and throw, to the Nite-eyez 3LED drop-in. So I recommend pairing a 2 or 3 D Maglite and a 2AA Mini Maglight. You can be all set for about $60 in that regard, and ready to crush and/or illuminate skulls on your neighborhood vigilante crime watch. :D (Don't get me wrong; I am 100% in favor of it. Just yankin' yer chain. Some here are quick to warn that keeping watch on one's own neighborhood, while possibly armed, in the wake of a spate of crimes might be viewed as vigilantism. If that's so, then I think we should ALL be freakin' vigilantes! :mad: )


-azurefly

LSU12ga
October 5, 2006, 07:49 PM
I looked at some maglights, the non led ones are bigger and cheaper, they worked for cops for years so i think ill be using that....

I don't think i would be a vigilante for keeping watch, a vigilante takes the judge dread (judge jury and executioner). we would simple be keeping the police informed of what is going on and making sure people are getting to their cars safely, we are not going out looking for trouble.

on that note....do you think its legal to carry a shotgun on my back?

JohnKSa
October 5, 2006, 09:06 PM
Did somebody say flashlights?

How about a flashlight that looks like a standard Mag-lite but is brighter than your car headlights. :D

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220352

That thread also has a comparison shot between a 3Watt Luxeon replacement bulb in a Maglight and the Black Bear flashlights.

faust
October 5, 2006, 09:48 PM
Hey LSU12ga, just a few comments. Damned straight it's legal to carry a shotgun on your back. Just so long as you do not set foot on campus with it. We have open carry here in Louisiana. Though you will most likely get told to keep it in your apartment. The cops really won't enjoy being called to deal with "a guy walking around with a shotgun" every other day.

Plus you lose tactical advantage, and a shotgun on your back isn't exactly quick to deploy. I'd think you'd be better off with an OWB holster and a good semi-auto.

I told my students recently to please buy pepper spray. I don't understand why we're not allowed to CCW on campus. I'm about to write a letter to Jindal, since he seems pro-carry friendly.

I don't know what complex you're talking about, but ever since that guy got killed at Olive Garden, I'd made sure to be packing even when I don't think i'm going into a "bad area". Crime is getting much worse here in BR. It is not an illusion.