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BouncerDan
October 2, 2006, 09:17 PM
I got a question and need some advice. Alot of you cops out there I am sure can give me some great feedback.

You are driving down the road when you see two cars stopped. One of them has your typical police lightbar turned on so you don't think anything of it. However when you come closer you see that the officer and the BG are in a pitch battle. What do you do? Do you stop your car and draw your weapon on the BG or attempt to stop the BG another way. Or do you just call 911 and keep driving?

Thanks for your help clearing this up

pickpocket
October 2, 2006, 09:38 PM
What kind of person would drive past? It's going to take a few minutes for a 911 call to manifest into cops on site... and scraps with officers on the side of the road don't last that long.

What you do is up to you, no one can make these kinds of decisions for you. Me? I'd stop. But that's me.

BillCA
October 2, 2006, 09:43 PM
There are options besides drawing your weapon.

First of all, it's nice to know some folks out there think of stopping to help and officer in trouble. But also consider what kind of grief you could be getting into as well. What you perceive as a "battle" may be nothing more than someone trying to stay out of handcuffs and not actually hurt the cop (rare, but it happens). It could also be someone who is grief-striken by the loss of a family member or a despondent person that the cop is trying to restrain from wandering off into traffic.

Don't just charge in. Take a few moments to look around. Look at the "BG's" car. Are there others inside? Children? Family? Gang members? What's the situtation? Is the cop still on his feet scuffling with the guy? Are they wrestling on the ground? Most importantly -- where are the "BG's" hands?

Do NOT pull your weapon unless you absolutely need to do so. Should the cop suddenly see another non-uniformed person with a gun he may come to the wrong conclusion and shoot the wrong person.

If the officer is still on his feet holler to him "Do you need some help, officer?" If he tells you to get back -- then get back. If he yells "Hell yes!" then give him a hand. Sometimes the fight stops when numbers are against 'em.

If it's obvious that the BG is groping for the cop's gun, move in as close as you feel comfortable to make a shot and yell for the person to get on the ground. Expect to repeat that about 3 times before he hears you and recognizes it. If the BG looks like he's going to get the gun, do what you think needs to be done to prevent it.

Abby
October 2, 2006, 09:45 PM
I'm not a cop. And I don't play one on TV. But I'd stop, because if I didn't and saw a dead officer on the news later, I wouldn't be able to sleep.

I don't normally see it as ANY of my business to get involved in cop work - they don't need my help chasing people, I don't need to pull over when the highway patrol is writing tickets and offer to help. :rolleyes:

But if it looked like I might be the difference between an officer going home at the end of his/her shift or not - yeah.

jknight8907
October 2, 2006, 09:46 PM
Hmm, interesting situation. If I'm understanding you right, your basically talking about a shootout on the side of the road, right? Most likely the police officer has called for backup via radio.

You could always go Dukes of Hazzard style and try to run the perp over....:p

oldbillthundercheif
October 2, 2006, 10:13 PM
I would stop, but would first ask the cop if he needed some help before I even walked up to them. It seems like he could mistake you for a bad feller trying to help the miscreant. That could lead to being sprayed with the burn-juice or worse and I hate that stuff!

bclark1
October 2, 2006, 10:21 PM
You could always go Dukes of Hazzard style and try to run the perp over....
hahahaha!

ITEOTWAWKI
October 2, 2006, 10:22 PM
I'd stop and shout if he needs help. He may take it or he may simply tell you to get back (in which case get way back, the last thing he wants to be worrying about is who you intend to back up, which he WILL be worrying about). If it was someone obviously with the upper hand I might be inclined to charge them with the intent of ripping the bg off and giving the officer a chance to regain control but the details of the situation should dictate your response. Be careful. That's tantamount to playing with fire. (Moreso if you're bringing a gun to the show)

Trip20
October 2, 2006, 10:33 PM
I'd stop and offer assistance with out hesitation. I'm sure the officer would do the same for me. ;)

The officer can accept your offer of help, he can tell you he's fine but to call 911, or he can tell you to scram.

Just don't pull up like Barney Fife thinkin' your going to kick some rear end.

"Now men, I have just one thing to say, this isn't gonna be kid's stuff and you'll be on your own and there will be no mollycoddling (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mollycoddling)." -- Barney Fife

Blackwater OPS
October 3, 2006, 12:16 AM
+1 for asking. Personally, I would rather get control of the situation myself, and knowing back up was on the way I would ask the citizen to just stay out of the way. I would not want to be responsible for the citizen getting killed because I screwed up.

GUNSMOKE45441
October 3, 2006, 05:03 AM
I lived in a remote area of Oregon, I heard an officer stop a pickup with 5 people in it, on my scanner, He called for backup, but the dispatcher couldn't copy him because of his location.
I called 911, gave them the officers location(close to my road) told them what was going on, and that I was going to help him until backup got there.
When I pulled up he was apprehensive until I told him I was on his side and backup was coming.
After it was over, he said "Boy was I glad to see you, Thanks"

Tim R
October 3, 2006, 05:13 AM
I've been in a couple of scrapes....no gun involved other than the one in my holster and was glad when a citizen asked if I needed help. The officer will tell you yes or go away.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 05:33 AM
I would definitely help. These type scenarios are hard to figure out in advance given all the variables possible. A couple of things are pretty much a given in my mind. If the bad guy was going for the officers gun I would get the correct angle and shoot at point blank range (if my commands aren't effective upon approach). I'm not going to fight only to have the bad guy get the officers gun and kill us both. In the event the officer was incapacitated I'm drawing my hog leg. If a trained officer was beaten down why should I think I will be better?

If it was just a fight and the officer was still fighting ok, I would put a choke hold on the bad guy that would make Ken Shamrock proud LOL.

cochise
October 3, 2006, 07:36 AM
It happened to me. the officer was in a scuffle, suspect fled, and two cars were left vacant. I slowed down, called 911, watched, and within 5 minutes 4 squad cars were there.

dfaugh
October 3, 2006, 08:16 AM
I would definitely stop, and assess the situation, while obeying whatever the cop has to say. He might say to "back off", call 911 (if he hasn't had the opportunity to call for backup), or to help restrain the BG. I any case the cop is "in control" and in charge.

Now, should the cop become incapacitated, or worse somehow get shot, well then the BG would have to deal with me. I wouldn't/couldn't allow the dirtbag to escape, If I could possible stop him.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 09:24 AM
Kinda reminds me of the citizen who helped the officer getting his head beaten in by a crazy man. The citizen heard the cry for help grabbed his 45 and ordered the bad guy to stop. The bad guy refused and the citizen put several rounds into his torso. When that failed to stop the bad guy the citizen made his head into a canoe.

Ben Shepherd
October 3, 2006, 09:48 AM
I'd stop. But the phrase would be very specific:

"Officer, do you need help?!" I'd make darn sure the officer knew WHO I was offereing to assist.

The officers response to this dictates my next move.

brj
October 3, 2006, 10:19 AM
I think i would be inclined to roll on by, especially if the family was with me. That's what cell phones are for.

Seems like I saw a video or dash cam video on tv once, the BG was getting the better of the LEO. A couple of truckers stopped to help and were definitely a factor in subduing the BG. Their efforts almost got them killed when backup arrived and the responding officers thought they were part of the problem.

Samurai
October 3, 2006, 10:54 AM
I would LIKE to stop, but...

One of the things that can make a cop's job REALLY dangerous is interference by innocent bystanders. All of the cops I've talked to tell me, if a cop is on the scene, you get OFF the scene! Don't help. Don't get in the way. And above all else, if the police are about to scuffle, it's because someone is dangerous, so do NOT try to apprehend a perp yourself! If you could do it yourself, we wouldn't need police!

Now, that said, if a cop is pinned down under gunfire (remember those two rampaging armor-clad bank robbers in the People's Republic of California several years ago?), then that's a different story. When under direct gunfire, EVERYONE wants help, I don't care who you are. And, those officers were thankful to have a few armed citizens who jumped in to provide additional cover fire for the trapped officers.

So, to help, or not to help? That is the question. The answer would have to be fact-specific. But, whatever you do, just don't get in their way.

springmom
October 3, 2006, 11:01 AM
YOU STOP. You call out to the officer, "Officer, do you need help?" If the answer is yes, you do what he asks. If he says "get outta here" you do that. If he says "call for backup" you do that.

Simple, ISTM. But I would never just drive on by, no.

Springmom

Eghad
October 3, 2006, 11:02 AM
If you stop and get out and the officer really needs assistance I dont think he would hesitate to ask. Now if the guy is on top of the officer choking him out I think that assistance should be given or if the guy has a firearm pointed at the officer.

Trip20
October 3, 2006, 12:31 PM
Seems like I saw a video or dash cam video on tv once, the BG was getting the better of the LEO. A couple of truckers stopped to help and were definitely a factor in subduing the BG. Their efforts almost got them killed when backup arrived and the responding officers thought they were part of the problem.

I believe the video you reference is of Officer Mark Coats who was killed by a shot to the armpit with a .22lr (hit to major artery or something) -- and yes when backup finally arrived, the officers new to the scene were definitely not nice to the good Samaritans who were only trying to offer aid.

But that's understandable -- when arriving on scene you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys. I imagine many a bad guy will try to play the innocent by-stander in any number of situations.

But, for me the bottom line is I couldn't let an officer die or be badly beaten just because backup will arrive and be a little, uh, resolute. It'll all get sorted out in the end, and with any luck you'll live to get recognized by the Mayor and be the hero of TFL. ;) :p

brj
October 3, 2006, 12:41 PM
YOU STOP.

Negative, ma'am...You stop. I will make my own decision based on existing circumstances.

Attempting to characterize a potential life threatening decision on a message board as " simple " is downright scary.

Tim R
October 3, 2006, 12:45 PM
Samuri, Thanks for the thought we LEO's are supermen. As for me, I don't have a cape and put my pants on one leg at a time.

I work in a remote area. Yesterday I could have used a little help. Nearest backup was 25 miles away but it worked out and no body was hurt. My buddies and I will find the guy another day.

Citizens will save my backside when the chips are down.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 01:20 PM
BRJ, I hope responding officers don't use your glasses on the drive to save your butt.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 01:31 PM
Anyone who would simply drive by and allow an officer to be murdered while having the means to prevent the act is a first class scumbag. I wouldn't expect my mother who has zero self defense training to intervene in an altercation but I would expect my father to do so. I'm not talking about leaving my helpless infant on the corner to jump in or any other scenario of putting another in danger to help. I mean if you have the ability and opportunity to help but not the hangy down things.

skeeter1
October 3, 2006, 01:32 PM
I once stopped to help out a LEO who was taking down a BG. That LEO just happened to be my brother. I got into a pile of trouble for that. The chief made me come in and file a report, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did).

This was 30 years ago, before there were CCWs and cellphones.

Would I stop and ask a LEO if he wanted my help again? Hell yes!

jcoiii
October 3, 2006, 01:52 PM
Well, I'd sure appreciate the help if I'm in a scuffle, on the side of the road especially. Anything that could get the fight resolved as quickly as possible with the least running around (into traffic).

And to the guy who mentioned running a shooting perp over.... I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I were driving (in the personal vehicle) and saw a cop in a shootout, especially if it looked like the cop was losing, I'd sure as heck run that BG down. That's much safer than trying to park, get out, and present your own weapon.

brj
October 3, 2006, 02:02 PM
BRJ, I hope responding officers don't use your glasses on the drive to save your butt.

I hope so too. I won't tell if you don't. But you have conveniently overlooked the fact that LEO is sworn to uphold the law and safeguard lives and property, and they are paid to do so. That is their job, not mine.

This is a great forum we have here. I learned how to take down my Mark II thanks to the information posted here. But moral judgement and decisions that could affect my safety and that of my loved ones will be determined by me, not by postings on an internet message board.

ron8903
October 3, 2006, 02:17 PM
Offer your assistance, if not needed ..scoot

guntotin_fool
October 3, 2006, 02:27 PM
This happened to my brother in DT Chicago in the late 70's early 80's, driving his car home from work. Saw a squad car on the side of the road with a CPD officer struggling with a individual, coming up behind the officer was another thug holding a pipe up over his head, brother drove his car into the guy with the pipe, sent him rolling, CPD got his guy down and out with a head shot with the baton. Brother got a lifetime friend on the CPD for that, they even fixed his car for him. Guy my brother hit with car was felon with two outstanding murder warrants. He was not able to walk again.

Of course you stop, I stop, anyone who can stops.

delzo
October 3, 2006, 02:58 PM
I've pretty much been involved in all sides of the scenario. As a teen I saw an officer getting strummed-on by two guys and I jumped in with fist and feet flying. When it started raining police cars I concentrated on choking one of the morons from behind and refused to let go until my arms were pried off. I figured that would show what side I was on! I was still cuffed and taken to jail until everything could be worked out. I did not have time to ask if help was needed, I could see it was.

As an officer, I both asked for help and received unsolicited assistance when it looked like I needed it. I was proud that ordinary citizens wanted to help. None involved a weapon but I have no reason to believe it would not still happen the same way. Each time, the citizen approached and was screaming that they were there to help me. I could read their body language that they were not a threat to ME.

Lastly, I have offered help while off-duty to other cops that were in a tight spot. I really didn't want to show up waving an identification card in a black wallet so I opted to do the same as my past helpers had done; scream I was there to help if needed. I did so with my hands empty and raised and awaited further instructions from the officer.

marlboroman84
October 3, 2006, 03:10 PM
BRJ, I don't think Springmom was specifically telling YOU to stop. I think it's just the assumption that an able-bodied person able to help out an officer in that situation would do just that.

I've never jumped in an altercation where an officer needed help physically, but I have helped calm people down and once oddly enough helped with traffic. Right after I got out of the service me and a friend were traveling and got stuck in an ice storm. A truck and a bus got wedged side by side on an overpass and there was only one state trooper that could get to the scene for awhile. I helped him put up some flares and such to warn people to slow down, then chatted with him til the tow trucks got there. Nothing big, but he said he appreciated the help and the company.

The main theme here is people helping people. If you can help someone, why wouldn't you? I doubt anyone here would call you a coward for not intervening, it's just your position. Do what is right by you, but as for me I couldn't not help. Just the thought that I might have been the difference between that officer going home or him going to the morgue would be a bit to much for me to handle.

Mr. James
October 3, 2006, 03:20 PM
I'm going to stop and offer assistance. I'll trust the rest to the good Lord. I will not ignore a police officer* in need of assistance. He puts his on the line every day for me; if needed, I'll return the favor.



*not because police officers represent some higher life form, but for the simple reason that it may be well nigh impossible to distinguish the agressor amongst two or more citizens duking it out on the roadside.

Double Naught Spy
October 3, 2006, 03:25 PM
Okay, most of us think that stopping is a good thing, at least stopping enough to call 911 and monitor, but let's say you want to get involved and help the officer. Which one is the officer?

I know that the obvious answer is that the one in uniform is the officer, unless, of course, the officer was on his way home with his squad when he spotted the other guy doing something significantly enough wrong that he took action, such as recognized the tag of a vehicle ostensibly from a perosn who impersonates officers.

Officers have verbal identification responses for other officers for plain clothes and off duty situations, but the usual person on the street isn't privy to such information.

Sorry, just muddying the water. No, I don't know when this has happened per se, but I do know of scuffles between officers and officer impersonators (or folks dressed as officers) and I know of off duty officers who have been mistakenly shot as bad guys when they were simply taking action as responsible (off duty and not in uniform) cops. Things are not always as they seem...

springmom
October 3, 2006, 03:55 PM
Yup, you may now consider the waters muddied! :D

If I can't tell the players without a scorecard, then I'm getting on the phone to 911 and let them send enough firepower to sort it out themselves. Well, actually, even if I DO know who the officer is, I'd be calling 911 as well as anything else he needed.

That's definitely the time to yell "HELP!" and get some more good guys on site.

Springmom

brj
October 3, 2006, 04:25 PM
All points well taken...

People have different views, that's what makes this such a great forum. I respect everyone's opinion, but I will have to be honest...there are just too many possible situations and potential outcomes for me to give a definitive answer. Of course I would help someone if I could, and I have a great deal of respect for LEO and am grateful for the job they do. I sure don't want to see anyone get hurt.

I will concede that there may be instances where a motorist could lend assistance to LEO. But suppose things go bad for the LEO just as you exit your vehicle and the BG gains control ? Or even worse, the unspeakable happens and you are incapacitated and your family, whom you have instructed to stay in your vehicle, are at the BG's mercy ? If someone is desperate enough to take on a police officer during a traffic stop gone bad I would consider them extremely dangerous. If you are not LEO, do you have the training, experience, and qualifications to engage this guy ?

Let's assume that you hear loud noises coming from your neighbors house and it is obvious that there is a serious domestic problem. Do you head over there to intervene, gun in hand ? As far as the helping people argument, is this type of situation any different ?

I obtained my CCW to protect myself and my loved ones. That's it.

Anyone who would simply drive by and allow an officer to be murdered while having the means to prevent the act is a first class scumbag.

threegun, it's obvious that this is a very emotional issue for you, but lets try to raise the tone of the discussion a bit, at least to the junior high level... K ?

marlboroman84
October 3, 2006, 04:37 PM
Let's assume that you hear loud noises coming from your neighbors house and it is obvious that there is a serious domestic problem. Do you head over there to intervene, gun in hand ? As far as the helping people argument, is this type of situation any different ?

That type of situation is indeed very different in the sense that it puts you in the position of an investigative LEO. How would you know who started the fight? If you go over there gun in hand your neighbors have the right to shoot you on a general basis. What is the situation? Are they arguing? Are they hitting each other? If they are in their house you call 911, if it spills outside and the guy is about to kill her right there in the street and you KNOW he is the agressor, then maybe you can do something.

An officer on the side of the road wrestling with another person is pretty much assuredly what it looks like. Not always, but I'd bet 20-1 that if you stopped and helped the officer gain control of the suspect, you'd at the least get a pat on the back. There are always exceptions to the rule though.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 04:58 PM
threegun, it's obvious that this is a very emotional issue for you, but lets try to raise the tone of the discussion a bit, at least to the junior high level... K ?

It should be for anyone who would want help in a tough situation. Let me ask you a question. Would you risk your life for a fellow American *besides family and friends?

*assuming that it is clear who the badguy is as with a LEO.

springmom
October 3, 2006, 05:00 PM
BRJ, I don't think Springmom was specifically telling YOU to stop. I think it's just the assumption that an able-bodied person able to help out an officer in that situation would do just that.

Um. Yeah. Sorry, it was the universal you, not the personal you. One of the really cool things that the Romance languages have that we don't anymore is the differentiation. "Tu" vs. "usted". I would have used better grammar had I written "one stops." But that would have been a tad high-flown for a forum board ;)

Of course you make your own decisions. I was simply communicating that I feel VERY strongly that stopping is the right thing to do. I, of course, no longer have small children with me either, and there certainly ARE some circumstances in which you might not be able to or might in fact make things worse.

Please accept my apologies for creating a misunderstanding.

Springmom

threegun
October 3, 2006, 05:08 PM
Springmom, Most of us knew what you meant. BTW Most of us would do the same without hesitation because it is the right thing to do, the American thing to do.

pickpocket
October 3, 2006, 05:22 PM
threegun, it's obvious that this is a very emotional issue for you, but lets try to raise the tone of the discussion a bit, at least to the junior high level... K ?
Unneccessary; nor did this comment contribute to the "raising the level of discussion"...

Epyon
October 3, 2006, 05:33 PM
Doing the right thing isn't just American, it applies to all humans regardless of nationality. To do the right thing allows people to be at their best. Now as for my opinion regarding this thread, definately address the officer and ask if they request your help unless it's obvious like the BG pinned the officer and beating the living snot out of him or her. I also agree that since officers risk their lives for citizens every day, it's okay if a citizen can return the favor.


Epyon

brj
October 3, 2006, 05:40 PM
Springmom:

I went back and read the post again and I realize what you meant. There is certainly no apology necessary, but thank you.

threegun:

That's about as broad a question as I've ever been asked. I have no idea where you are going with it. But I know what my limitations are...I'm not a policeman, fireman, or action hero. According to your logic I am not an American either.

I guess you are trying to equate going into a burning building or pulling an injured person from a burning car to aiding a LEO involved in a scuffle on the side of the highway. Honestly, there is too much gray area there for a yes or no. Considering the general nature of your question that's the best I can do.

joab
October 3, 2006, 05:43 PM
But you have conveniently overlooked the fact that LEO is sworn to uphold the law and safeguard lives and property, and they are paid to do so. That is their job, not mine.Simple correction. LEOs do not swear to safeguard lives and property and are not paid to do so.
Their job is to investigate crime and apprehend criminals,
A very minimal amount of research will confirm that, I thought it was common knowledge

threegun
October 3, 2006, 05:47 PM
Epyon, I agree. However America is the mold that others follow. We are the standard. Thats why I added the American way.

threegun
October 3, 2006, 05:56 PM
Brj, It is obvious that something as mundane as helping an officer gain control of a bad guy can go deadly wrong. Any help afforded that officer by civilians comes with some degree of risk. I asked because some people aren't willing to assume any risk to life and limb to help others.

According to your logic I am not an American either.

Does this mean you won't help another if you are capable?

Samurai
October 3, 2006, 06:00 PM
The "right thing to do" is a very difficult fact to ascertain... How many attrocities have been committed because the people committing them have SWORN that it "seemed like the right thing to do at the time..."?

This is a gun enthusiast's forum. As people go, gun enthusiasts tend to be a rather pro-active lot. (I think we can all agree about that...:p ) All I'm saying is that, before we jump in with both legs and an assault rifle, we should be very sure that we're not causing undue stress for the police officer.

Man! I can just imagine a cop who is in full-out fight-or-flight, running purely on training and instinct, who simply is too rattled by the situation to understand you when you say, "Hey, Buddy, do you need any help?". In this situation, I can picture the cop seeing a gun on your hip (or in your hand) and being put in a situation where he/she cannot determine whether you are a threat or not. (For that matter, were you talking to the cop, or to the perp?!?! He doesn't KNOW!)

I wouldn't want to step out there empty-handed, and I'd be afraid to do it with a gun in my hand! What if the cop gets scared and shoots me before I can convince him that I'm really his friend?

Springmom, as per the usual, provides some good wisdom. Call 911. Call in the hired guns. Stop, and observe. If the cop is wrestling with the guy, let the cop take the guy down himself. If the guy is about to KILL the cop, then it becomes clear-cut defense of a third party... SHOOT HIM! But, this is one of those situations where you're REALLY stepping out of that car with your life in your hands, and I wouldn't want to chance it.

I'd stop. I'd call 911. I'd watch. I'd stay ready. And I'd wait for any indication that this was a life or death situation. If it's life or death, I'd intervene. If it's not, I'll not get in the cop's way.

The "right thing to do" is hard to determine. Just last month, I stopped to help a mother and daughter who were headed to school. Their car stopped, and I was behind them. I got out (in a suit and tie:rolleyes: ), pushed their car to the side of the road, and gave them a battery jump. But, when I got out of the car, they both looked at me in pure horror, as if I might be Jeffrey Dommer. For all they knew, I was! They were glad for the help, in the long run. But, they did not know at first what my intentions were. I got their car running, they said thank you, and they were on their way...

Was it right for me to stop? I'd sure like to think so. But, I could have just as easily called the tow truck from my cell phone, and NOT caused them such a fright as I approached and asked if they would like some help.

Humph! I'm rambling again... I'll stop now.

And, Springmom, one's language can never be too high-flown for a forum board. ;)

brj
October 3, 2006, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by brj
threegun, it's obvious that this is a very emotional issue for you, but lets try to raise the tone of the discussion a bit, at least to the junior high level... K ?

I would like to retract this statement and apologize to the board members.

Does this mean you won't help another if you are capable?

threegun, I have conceded that there could be circumstances where a citizen could aid a police officer or fellow citizen. As Samurai pointed out, circumstances often dictate actions.

azurefly
October 3, 2006, 09:31 PM
Of course my instinct would be to assist the cop against a bad guy (and the example said that they were in a BATTLE, so as to make it clear this is not a very ambiguous event we are coming upon).

But how many times have we read or listened to police chiefs telling us to NOT put ourselves in danger when there is a known malefactor at work? They tell us to not resist armed robbers, they tell us to not confront burglars, they tell us to leave it to the professionals all the time -- much to the consternation of those of us who feel the people should be empowered, and encouraged, to fight back.

So this kind of question makes me think of what some among us say on the subject of coming to the aid of a vocal anti-gunner, or escorting one to her car in the work parking lot. Often it's, "They disavow the utility of us and our guns; let them tough it out on their own." That's what I'm reminded of, anyway.

I certainly don't want to sound callous, but what are we supposed to make of it when on one hand we are told we're not trained enough to defend OURSELVES, and yet on the other hand we are discussing aiding the very people who tell us not to do such things... :(


-azurefly

Trip20
October 3, 2006, 10:05 PM
But how many times have we read or listened to police chiefs telling us to NOT put ourselves in danger when there is a known malefactor at work? They tell us to not resist armed robbers, they tell us to not confront burglars, they tell us to leave it to the professionals all the time -- much to the consternation of those of us who feel the people should be empowered, and encouraged, to fight back.

Does the officer being overcome by two assailants have to repent the sins of his pig-headed police chief for you to be able to brush the BS aside and forget about the politics of it all?

:rolleyes:

It doesn't always have to be about battling the man.

Sometimes it's all about helping your fellow man.

There's plenty of time for grandstanding on principals after the nitty gritty is addressed (i.e., after saving another human’s freakin’ life).

Glockamolie
October 3, 2006, 10:28 PM
I agree with the sentiments of Trip20. I guess it depends on your particular area, and your particular experience with police officers. Around here, CHL holders get the benefit of the doubt very frequently when it comes to officer on the street. I've always wondered why, on those police video shows, there's an incident going down, and you can see many people in the background going about their merry way. There's no way I could see that, and just stand there. As long as I can tell that my help is desired, it's going to be there.

azurefly
October 3, 2006, 11:24 PM
Notice, Trip20, that I did NOT say that I would not help the cop.

I was raising a point of discussion -- you seem to be having a hard time recognizing it as such.

My curiosity lies in wondering just what kind of stammering the local police chief would do when one of his own was saved by an alert CCWer (hell, could be ME some day).

I imagine it would go like it always goes when some non-LEO triumphs over a violent attacker, be it during a robbery, burglary, rape, other attack:

"While we appreciate very much the actions of Mr. So-and-so, and fortunately the situation worked out in his favor, we do not recommend civilians using guns to take on criminals. Leave that to the professionals..." :rolleyes:

I am waiting for the day they actually start to recognize the utility of an armed civilian population in the fight against crime, instead of treating it like a danger and a liability that sometimes works out well.


-azurefly

marlboroman84
October 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
I gotta back azure on this to a degree. The brass likes to get up and say "Thank you Joe Citizen, but leave this to us!" Even when there are several armed citizens that are just as capable of doing things the police can, they just choose not to be LEOs. I think the indvidual officer appreciates it and realizes that fact, but the higher ups have to shine for the cameras and say all the right things. Which is a bigger problem of itself. To many people now "just wanna say the right thing."

threegun
October 4, 2006, 06:16 AM
Azure, Police are "usually" better trained to handle these types of situations. Citizens "usually" have zero training in self defense both hand to hand or with a weapon. So the advice given to comply and let police do there job is good given the lack of training of the majority. That said there are times when intervention is needed.

Example years ago a shoplifter was tackled outside our shop by a young buck employee. He was placed face first against a support column hands behind his back. The genius young buck decided to walk back inside leaving the shoplifter and an older more feeble employee alone. A scuffle ensued and the older employee was in jeopardy of getting a first class butt whipping. Help came in the form of yet another older employee who simple grabbed the shoplifter by the ponytail and pulled hard. Shoplifter fell with the second older employee still pulling. A quick shot of OC pepper and it was over. Two older guys easily defeated one younger definitely more fit shoplifter. Alone both would have been whipped.

There are times when help is needed even by pros. Just because I'm not at pro level doesn't mean that I can't lend a hand to a pro.

brj
October 4, 2006, 07:34 AM
I am waiting for the day they actually start to recognize the utility of an armed civilian population in the fight against crime, instead of treating it like a danger and a liability that sometimes works out well.


As usual azurefly makes a very good point. I recently began a thread on another board directed at LEO members in regards to civilian CCW. The responses on that thread clearly revealed that not all law enforcement favors armed civilians.

Odd Job
October 4, 2006, 08:24 AM
I would stop, definitely.

I went on a ride-along with a lone officer in Colorado and although the topic never came up, my premise was that if he got into difficulties I would help him. Any thoughts on a ride-along helping an officer?

Ben Shepherd
October 4, 2006, 12:10 PM
Here's some things to think on:

EVERY cop out there is someones husband, wife, son, daughter, mother, father, sister, etc.

I have a younger brother with a wife and three kids and a father-in-law who is doing the single parent thing with 5 kids.

You have no idea how often I pray that if the chips were down SOMEONE would help them be able to come back home after thier shift.

My father in law survived a VICIOUS shootout years ago. His crusier was litterally full of bullet holes. I for one am glad he's still here!!!

To those that have helped: THANK YOU.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 4, 2006, 12:51 PM
To be the academic - when folks say that they would surely do XY or Z, here's a summary of the factors that go in to the decision to help. A little simplistic as it is more complicated but think about them before you give the definitive answer that you would always do XY or Z:

Several factors have been proposed that impact whether a person will intervene to help someone:

1. Diffusion of responsibility- will someone else help?

2. Ability to intervene – your own capacity to help. This can be based on your perceived physical abilities and skill as relevant to the situation and attacker

3. Risk to yourself and to others if you intervene

4. Your identification with the person who needs aid and/or the victim’s worthiness of receiving aid.

5. Your perception of negative affect that you will experience

6. Your evaluation of whether the action aids promoting group survival as well as personal factors

7. Your perceived evaluation of any rewards you might receive after a successful intervention (might be financial, praise, approval). Similarly, the evaluation of the guilt or shame you might feel or negative impressions you might be subject to if you don’t act.

8. Seeing others help.

Mannlicher
October 4, 2006, 01:07 PM
simple, call 911, make your report and drive away. Bet the cop gets better response time than a citizen anyway.

threegun
October 4, 2006, 03:01 PM
The responses on that thread clearly revealed that not all law enforcement favors armed civilians.

Definitely agree here however every last one of them would be forever grateful if you used your concealed weapon to save them from death.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15047117/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15047117/)

I guarantee that Officer Matt Williams and his dog Diogi and their commanders would have gladly accepted the help of even the most untrained citizen.

If your help is not needed or wanted.....that isn't your fault. In this case its the thought that counts.

threegun
October 4, 2006, 03:07 PM
Glenn, I love that list but would add one.

The simple fact that I would want help in a similar situation and would feel a hypocrite if I didn't help

Glenn E. Meyer
October 5, 2006, 09:41 AM
Threegun - that was covered in number 7 - feeling guilt or shame.

But you have a point - the guilt or shame could be several factors contributing to hit. Feeling like a hypocrite could be one.

Even in police ranks, they discuss officers who are usually last to a call for help and those who are first.

brj
October 5, 2006, 11:23 AM
The responses on that thread clearly revealed that not all law enforcement favors armed civilians.

Definitely agree here however every last one of them would be forever grateful if you used your concealed weapon to save them from death.

Who wouldn't ?

So are you saying here that there are LEO out there that disapprove of civilian CCW to protect themselves but it's ok if it benefits them ? Around here we call that a double standard.

This may very well be the topic of another thread.

delzo
October 5, 2006, 02:33 PM
Did someone get voted in to speak for ALL law enforcement officers?

In my world, ANYONE against concealed carry for citizens can go hatch eggs.

stratus
October 5, 2006, 03:10 PM
I'd stop and fight the BG in any way that I could, if I had to draw on him I'd try to be careful to keep the LEO as far out of my line of fire as possible, obviously...

I hope I never see that happen, but if I do, I certainly wouldn't chicken out if it was a police officer in trouble.

pickpocket
October 5, 2006, 05:14 PM
Guys -
I think the real point of the post - at least as I interpreted it - was whether we would be willing to stop in order to render assistance. Let's be careful lest we wander too far down the path of why some LE doesn't like CCW, or what conditions would have to be met in order for us to stop.

I think it's enough that we believe ourselves WILLING to stop to help and render assistance if we thought the situation warranted it. Where that line is drawn is up to the individual themselves and we can sit here and debate it back and forth for weeks....

azurefly
October 5, 2006, 06:04 PM
To add to Glenn's list:

- Let's remember the fact that media and political attention to CCW is generally strongly negative and condemnatory. We see police chiefs get on t.v. and talk down to those who arm themselves for self defense. (As I mentioned before, any time a civilian does something positive in self defense -- with or without a gun, even -- the police chiefs typically close with, "But we don't want everyone doing this: leave protecting yourself to the experts." (We know about the fact that they are not under an actual legal obligation to swoop to our rescue, but 99% of the public does not.)

It is well understandable that some among the CCWing public feel indignation that "the authorities" (police spokesmen) as well all many of the politicians and most of the media condemn our preparedness, our decision to be armed and ready to fight back against criminals. The idea that they would then want or ask our assistance, when they have condemned and derided us for preparing ourselves (with guns and with training) makes it understandable that some might be reluctant to give that help.

I'm not saying that they will decline to help, but I can understand the impetus to be apathetic.


-azurefy

seeker_two
October 6, 2006, 11:39 PM
I would stop & help the LEO.....


However, if someone wanted to remain objective about the situation, they could just shoot BOTH parties... :rolleyes:

bennnn
October 7, 2006, 01:52 AM
I've been busy petting my new mil-surp rifle for a few days, as is my habit....
But I have read this entire thread, and I'm going to reply to the post that started it;
I got a question and need some advice. Alot of you cops out there I am sure can give me some great feedback.

You are driving down the road when you see two cars stopped. One of them has your typical police lightbar turned on so you don't think anything of it. However when you come closer you see that the officer and the BG are in a pitch battle. What do you do? Do you stop your car and draw your weapon on the BG or attempt to stop the BG another way. Or do you just call 911 and keep driving?

and ignore the dukes of hazard and shoot everyone advocates...

I would stop.
I would ask the guy doing his job if he wanted my help.
I would do my best to keep everyone alive, yes, even the BG.

Here's why, in order;

I'm an American who believes it is my duty.
I'm a gun nut, not Rambo.
I can fight, and kill, but I've grown out of looking for reasons to hurt people.

I collect rifles because they make me happy, and I carry handguns to protect myself and the woman I love.

And I have never met a cop who wouldn't stop and help me if I needed it, on or off duty. Sure we all bitch about the ATF and gun control, but the poor beat cop trying to get home to his family will miss dinner to save my life if he can. How could I call myself a Patriot and an American if I did any less?

In my world, ANYONE against concealed carry for citizens can go hatch eggs

stratus
October 7, 2006, 05:06 AM
I think the real point of the post - at least as I interpreted it - was whether we would be willing to stop in order to render assistance.
Agreed - regardless of the various implications that we are all dancing around, you're not going to have all day to analyze and interpret every single factor. The question is, would you help?

My answer is yes, absolutely, without a second thought.

trooper3385
October 8, 2006, 10:26 PM
If you see a police officer in distress, I would first call 911 and advise them in case they don't already know. You want to get other officers in route to assist first. If the officer needs assistance, don't just go running up to the scene like a chicken with your head cut off. Go towards the scene and ask if assistance is needed first. You don't necessarily know what might be going on at that point. Especially don't go running up with a gun in your hand, your just asking to get shot. If you have a weapon, keep in concealed until the point comes that it needs to be used. I've been a State Trooper for awhile, and its pretty sad to see that most people don't want to get involved and just look the other way. A female Trooper that I had trained stopped a drunk driver one night in the parking lot of a truck stop. While she was conducting sobriety tasks, a crowd of people had gathered on front of the store watching, all men. Five truck drivers and a motorist to be exact, among other people inside the store. As she was attemping to cuff this man, he started resisting and managed to pull away from her. She backed up and called for backup. I had already started heading towards her location because I hadn't heard her check in for awhile. The guy threw a punch and just grazed her chin. She got him pepper srayed and the guy pulled his shirt over his head and started throwing punches wildly. He took off and tried to get around the back of the store. She managed to get him on the ground and there was a hell of a fight. All while the 6 people in front of the store stood there and watched. I got there about 5 minutes later while the were still fighting and got him handcuffed. I remember as I was running up to her, I looked over and noticed 2 of the truck driver still sipping there coffee watching. Never once did anyone even ask if she needed assistance. It just amazing me how some people don't want to get involved. I had another instance where I stopped a guy on a speed violation at night. After I grabbed my clip board from the car and began to walk back up to the violator that I had outside of the vehicle, I stepped into a hole and fell flat on my face. I didn't get hurt, but felt like a complete idiot. A man driving by, saw me fall and thought I had been shot. He pulled over in front of the vehicles and ran about half way towards the car and asked if I needed help. Probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, running up to a scene unarmed after he thought I had been shot, but it made me feel better later on knowing there are still a few people out there that will go out of there way to help you if your in need. I work in South Texas on several major corridors for drugs and illegal aliens that are traveling north and large amounts of money and weapons are heading south. We've had major problems with stopping these vehicles loaded with something illegal and as we're on a traffic stop, other vehicles that a protecting the loads drive by shooting at the officer. I stopped a vehicle the other day after a short pursuit. Several illegal aliens bail out of the vehicle and run. About 10 more are still in the vehicle. As I'm getting them all face down on the ground at gun point, I hear tires screeching and look back. I see a Chevy Tahoe with 22 in spinner rims and dark tinted windows pull a u-turn and start coming back towards me very quickly. I took cover and as the guy jumps out of the vehicle and starts running towards me, I draw down on him and tell him to stop. The guy stops and reached towards his back. I came pretty close to firing, remembering action is faster than reaction. The guy pulls out his badge. It was an off duty police officers coming to assist me. The guy nearly got shot. The guy did not use his head what so ever. If and officer needs assistance, by all means, do what you can to help him, but use your head. Every senerio is different. Your not going to be much of a help if you get yourself killed trying to do so.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 9, 2006, 10:18 AM
How is one to know what an officer thinks about concealed carry when said officer is fighting someone?

Like I posted before - there is no absolute answer - even the people who say that they would automatically come to the aid of the officer are going through a decision process as I outlined above. It may not be available for conscious introspecton but the factors are well known.

Heist
October 9, 2006, 10:51 AM
Cops can shoot in almost any situation, justified or not, and be no-billed after a paid suspension. I can't. I'm also not paid to do their job.

I would be a very good witness. :)

Troy26
October 13, 2006, 02:51 PM
This happened to my brother in DT Chicago in the late 70's early 80's, driving his car home from work. Saw a squad car on the side of the road with a CPD officer struggling with a individual, coming up behind the officer was another thug holding a pipe up over his head, brother drove his car into the guy with the pipe, sent him rolling, CPD got his guy down and out with a head shot with the baton. Brother got a lifetime friend on the CPD for that, they even fixed his car for him. Guy my brother hit with car was felon with two outstanding murder warrants. He was not able to walk again.

Morally, I don't think he had a right to, but i'm curious did the BG that got ran over try to sue your brother?

Troy26
October 13, 2006, 03:02 PM
The main theme here is people helping people. If you can help someone, why wouldn't you? I doubt anyone here would call you a coward for not intervening, it's just your position.

I respecfully disagree. Any person that would would look at another (offcer or not) who was involved in a situation that was life-threatening (as any confrontation with a violent criminal is) and refuses because they're more worried about themselves (having a wife/child in the car is different) is certainly a coward.

Troy26
October 13, 2006, 03:10 PM
threegun, it's obvious that this is a very emotional issue for you, but lets try to raise the tone of the discussion a bit, at least to the junior high level... K ?

My vote's with threegun.The "junior-high" level is the immature "It's all about me" attitude. The willingness to put yourself at risk to help another shows a gret amount of maturity.

As for the poster that brought up the question of the safety of one's family should you and the officer be subdued, when I got out of the car, I would have someone drive far enough away to still see the situation, and be ready to barrel down the road the instant things look bad. Is it completely without risk? no, but far too often we forget that this country would not have been founded without those willing to take risks...includding their families.

guntotin_fool
October 15, 2006, 12:01 AM
The man in question tried to sue, but was "informed" by CPD that doing so would not be in his best interest, the suit was dropped. It was assumed by the CPD that had my brother intervened, there would have been a dead cop. They seem to take that to heart there. I do believe the worst thing a man can do is kill a CPD member. (not having a lot of respect for a lot of what goes on in the CPD, they do not stand for felons killing Cops there.) There are very few, VERY FEW, people who kill a Chicago cop who make it to prison.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 15, 2006, 06:16 PM
Troy, calling people cowards is baloney. Let's say you are the sole support of your wife and child - they are not in the car but home. If you die, then they are on the street.

If that story was posted in the paper, I'm sure I can count on Troy to support that family and send the kid to college.

As I said before, all folks who see helping behavior as some kind of black or white moral decision that they will make to help at risk of themselves are inadequately educated in moral philosophy and the psychology of altrusitic decision making. Easy to be a tough guy on the Internet.

threegun
October 18, 2006, 05:23 AM
Let's say you are the sole support of your wife and child - they are not in the car but home. If you die, then they are on the street.


Death can come in many different forms from a car accident to a heart attack. Your family should be protected by insurance in the unfortunate event of your untimely demise. The odds are you won't die helping an officer in a life and death struggle. Still if you do die your family is out on the street unless protected financially. I personally have enough life insurance to insure that my wifes quality of life can remain the same just on the dividends after investing the money. Heck if she can get a good mutual fund she might get a raise LOL. Seriously though, it is the responsible thing to do regardless of the risks you accept.

Double Naught Spy
October 18, 2006, 08:12 AM
So you have insurance and finances were the parameter of the issue, but aside from finances, don't your kids deserve to keep their parent and your spouse a spouse? No, you aren't likely to die helping a cop in a fight. Then again, cops aren't likely to die either, but the chances do increase.

My point is that the decision isn't just financial when it comes to considering one's own family.

But hey, maybe your kids are grown and you don't like your spouse! :D

threegun
October 18, 2006, 09:29 AM
DNS, I was just responding to the financial aspect. Of course the wife and kids would suffer from my death. Just as the families of thousands of Americans have suffered after the loss of a loved one. Sometimes and for somethings you just have to do the right thing. We aren't talking jumping onto a grenade here. We are talking about taking a risk to safe a fellow American who would do the same thing for you. If the outcome proved fatal family and friends will just have to understand. Many things increase the chance of death and some people take on these "extra" risks purely for the excitement of it, I don't. My wife and kids do understand that if I am needed to defend this country or if a situation as described above needed my help I will take the risks. My family would question why I didn't help.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 18, 2006, 10:15 AM
Threegun, would you cut your standard of living by adopting the kids of a hero and supporting the widow in the life style that they would find reasonable?

Would you intervene in all fights or just the cop fight? If you saw a gang banger get ready to kill another gang banger, would you intervene?

My point is that the absolute calls for intervention really are not realistic.

threegun
October 19, 2006, 07:50 AM
Threegun, would you cut your standard of living by adopting the kids of a hero and supporting the widow in the life style that they would find reasonable?


Only if they were family or really close friends. As for the reasonable lifestyle again thats what insurance is for.

If you saw a gang banger get ready to kill another gang banger, would you intervene?


No. I believe that they both should die and would hope for Skyguy's mutual death scenario. There is no place in society for criminal gangs.


Would you intervene in all fights or just the cop fight?

As a rule I won't allow myself to intervene unless it is obvious who the victim really is and the lack of help could result in the death or serious injury of the victim. A street fight..........no way. An argument in a store that turns into a fight.....no way. Someone stomping a little old lady on her way from the grocery store while trying to get her purse.......sure. An officer in a struggle with a badguy is just a no brainer.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 19, 2006, 09:33 AM
Thus my point is made. Folks do consider all kinds of factors in deciding to intervene. There is no absolute moral right or wrong decision.

Even with insurance, the loss of one to a family is devasting. Money is not the most important thing. So if one considers one's own family in deciding what to do, is a person morally bankrupt?

All human life is not the same - the grandma about to die is worth more than the gangbanger about to die. But are they both not humans - esp. for those who spout religious values?

Go back to my list - folks - you decide to intervene based on a calculation of factors. You might claim WHAT IS RIGHT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS DO THIS - but that's just not the case.

threegun
October 19, 2006, 11:14 AM
Glenn, I agreed with your list. It was a great post.

So if one considers one's own family in deciding what to do, is a person morally bankrupt?


If this person considers their family in ever other potentially dangerous situation, including those dangerous leisure activities, then no.

All human life is not the same

No it isn't....to me at least.

the grandma about to die is worth more than the gang banger about to die. But are they both not humans -

Both human yes. Granny worth more...........you bet.

esp. for those who spout religious values?

I'm not religious LOL.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 19, 2006, 01:52 PM
Wasn't saying that your were religious - sorry if that was the implication - I was just speaking to some of the absolutist positions.

Have a good day! :)

Mannlicher
October 19, 2006, 03:51 PM
I would call 911. Thats the best you can expect from a cop, its the best that they can expect from a citizen.
And BouncerDan, if it were a Gainesville cop, well, I would probably just drive by and honk the horn.

threegun
October 19, 2006, 03:58 PM
Glenn, No need to be sorry. I was raised with many of the morals and values found in Christianity.

ZeroJunk
October 19, 2006, 04:15 PM
I love this.Reminds me of some of the discussions about using deadly force.Here we have a person contemplating the meaning of life,balancing his financial situation and the burden his death would be on the family,religious ramifications,legal ramifications,etc.All in the split second he has to make a decision.I just don't believe it.A person is going to act on an impulse that he probably doesn't even understand.After the fact he can make up whatever explanation he wants to for what he did or did not do.

Glenn E. Meyer
October 19, 2006, 04:25 PM
In this scenario, you probably have quite a few seconds before you act.

You see the cop in trouble, you have to stop, you have to get out of the car, etc. In psychological decision time, you have quite a bit for the subconscious evaluation to occur.

In simulated shooting tests under speed pressure, gender and race influence decisions to shoot, so it's quite possible for all this to enter your decision process.

threegun
October 19, 2006, 04:40 PM
Zero, Most of my decision making process is or has been done in advance. How much risk will I accept etc. Do I dive into a rushing stream to save a civilian if it is sure to kill me also? I don't think so. How about diving in with a life vest on? I can still die but it is less likely. The level of risk one plans on taking certainly involves some type of thinking process prior to involvement. Glenns list I believe is accurate. You might not realize you are thinking those things listed but you more than likely are.

We aren't talking about instantaneous surprise attacks requiring immediate response.

revjen45
October 19, 2006, 07:41 PM
The last place I want to be if a cop is being attacked is standing there holding a gun. He/she has put out the call and every cop within 50 miles is burning the tires off of their cars to get there, like the Mel Gibson movie where he calls a "broken arrow" and every resource within range is either on the way or already dumping ordnance. The cops arriving don't who is who, and I don't want to be standing there holding a smoking pistol, or even just picking my nose. I don't have a cell phone, so the best service I can render is to get out of the way. Will they pay your lawyer if the perp is harmed? Not likely. They have defacto carte blanche legal immunity for their actions under color of authority and legions of government shysters to take their side. I don't. Call me what you want. I'm not ashamed of being a cynic.

jfrey123
October 19, 2006, 09:10 PM
For me personally, it would depend on the situation that I've rolled up on.

-- Driving up, I see a lone police officer in a physical scuffle with a suspect(s). I would stop, get out of my car but stay protected behind the door or vehicle itself. I would yell to the cop if he wanted assistance. If he says, "Hell yeah!" you can bet your ass I'm going in there. If the answer is no, I'd wait til he has subdued the suspect before letting him know I am going to split.

-- Driving up, I see a lone police officer engaged in an armed standoff with gun drawn. I would keep driving unless he was on the ground and the suspect(s) were coming up to finish him off. My reason for driving is that the officer is trained on how to handle a situation where he needs to hold suspects at gunpoint until back-up arrives. If I stop, that adds a variable he doesn't need to be factoring in at that moment: Am I a possible threat? If I'm not a threat, I'm now a bystandard he needs to try and protect. I call 911 and tell them what I've seen.


In my opinion, our peace officers and LEO's are there to do their job, and I intend to let them do that job without worrying about some Neighborhood Watch vigilante running up behind them.

****As a disclaimer: I believe no one really truly knows how they're going to act in a situation until they're put into it. Some soldiers go into a combat zone cocked, locked and ready to rock shouting "HOORAH!" As soon as a shot is fired at them, they tuck into the fetal position, afraid to move. If I ever do pass a situation that relates to this post, I'll let you know what I actually did.****

Slugthrower
October 29, 2006, 09:08 AM
There is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. Situation dictates the response. SA is the key. Heros... we call men that involve themselves in dangerous situations heros today, some are just lucky fools.

revjen45
October 29, 2006, 03:14 PM
Various luminaries of police leadership tell us the peons that we're too stupid to be outside walking around without their wise and highly trained protection. I am physically unable to assist on any level short of using a firearm, and I don't have the legal immunities and legions of shysters to back me up in court that the police have. Happening upon the scene you have no idea of the situational context- you could be pulling a gun on a cop making an arrest of a female dope dealer while under the impression that it's a damsel in distress (narks often look scuzzy). An earlier post pointed out that good Samaritans may be treated like criminals by the police. Until I get my badge, gun, and a paycheck in the mail I feel no obligation to jump into a situation fraught with peril. After all If somebody is bad enough to whomp on the police he's bad enough that I want no part of the situation, and if I'm so dumb that I need the government's armed minions to watch over me I'm not competent to intervene. The purpose of the law is to provide the legal industry with busy work and I will not volunteer to be shyster fodder.

Bluesmanhop
October 31, 2006, 12:36 AM
I think BILLCA said it best, but to keep this topic going. I almost always at least slow down when I see a police car with lights on, on side of road. I thought this should be the normal thing to do. Same thing as a flagger on side of road. If I saw something not in the norm then I would proceed as BILLCA says. Thats what the SIGNS are for, cop light/construction signs same thing slow down lookout. If you own a firearm and you have it on you in your car even more so. If you can't decide when or when not to pull your weapon leave it at home.

spctim11
November 2, 2006, 09:26 PM
Most of the time I really hate Louisiana but it's laws like this that make it a little easier to live here. We have a great law that allows us to use deadly force if we THINK we are going to be carjacked. However I couldn't find it.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/2371586.html
There are a lot more articles on this case.

rickdavis81
November 4, 2006, 09:21 PM
My wife just gave birth to a 1lb 4oz baby. I almost lost my wife and my kid. On the way to the hospital a cop pulled me over. I was speeding yes. BUT, I was keeping with the flow of traffic because I didn't want to cause a wreck when I was almost to the hospital. Plus I feel I had a right to drive a little fast. He wouldn't listen to me and told me to "Clean my F------ ears out and listen to him or I would go to jail" He doesn't realize I would have ran over his motorcycle with my truck and left him standing there. When I went to court and told the judge my story and what I was doing she still found me guilty. I now realize that most of the judicial system for traffic is monetary driven. You can pay more to get out of a ticket but you can't give them a reasonable excuse for it. From now on I support no cops or judicial figures. Don't get me wrong. They are not all bad. But I don't trust them anymore and they have never done anything for me but give me hard times when I was a kid. It's a long story.

OneInTheChamber
November 5, 2006, 05:38 PM
I would first make sure the officer wanted my help before giving it. A quick, short, loud "You need a hand?" is all that is needed. I don't want the cop to think I'm trying to help the BG or trying to distract him so the BG can get the upper hand.

If it were two non-uniformed person involved; it becomes harder to decipher who the BG is. The least thing you want to do is hurt a victim who just gained the upper hand in a violent struggle. Bringing a firearm into this really complicates things. What if both parties are the aggressors?

A fist fight can turn worse any second; so who is to say when to intervene and when to keep walking? What if you "drew down" on two guys fist fighting and one or both of them produced firearms also? Now you turned a blackeye and sore jaw into gunshot wounds.

FirearmFan
November 8, 2006, 10:33 AM
While in college I worked at a computer store that had a lot of people try to buy goods with bad checks. We would catch them all the time, stall at the register and wait for the police to show up to arrest the idiot.

Well on time a guy around 6' 200 lbs tries it and we stall him out until a state trooper arrives. Just in case the crook wants to run for it we turn off the automatic doors to the store which are a pain in th a$$ to open with no power.

As the officer is escorting the crook out the guy starts to make a run for it. The office had not put hand cuffs on him and wanted to get outside to prevent a scene. Myself and a bunch of other sales people are watching as the officer whips out his mace and says he will mace the guy if he keeps fighting. Well he keeps fighting and the officer sprays him and himself in the process. The guy breaks through the doors and talks off running in the parking lot.

Myself and another sales employee take off running after him. After about 50 yards I catch up too him weezing at a car and proceed to push him into it. I swing around and get him in a reverse head lock with one arm pinned behind his back. The crook has his other arm under him and looks like he is trying to get something out of his pants. I realize at this point that I have just done something pretty stupid because he could have had a gun. Just in case he is trying to bring it out I start smacking his head into the trunk of the car and pressing him as flat as possible against it, no bs!

My co-worker grabs his other arm and we wrestle with him for a little bit until we get him to the ground. By this time the other sales people have shown up and hold him there. The officer shows up gives us hand cuffs and says, " Break his f__King arm is you have to, to get them on" I have never seen a more ****** policeman.

In the end I got a letter of commendation in the mail a week later from the Commandant of the barracks and never heard a work about us taking the guy down. If an officer is in trouble, I'm going to help. I will just be more careful about it though.

EIGHTYDUECE
November 10, 2006, 08:29 PM
After this thread almost a year ago, I had to rethink the "pull over to help" mentality.

Watch what happened to the 2 poor truck drivers that stopped to help the officer after he was shot by the BG.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192679

wayneinFL
November 10, 2006, 10:39 PM
I read somewhere about an incident in which an off duty officer was shot in the aftermath of a shooting. The situation on the video of Trooper Coates is no surprise.

This is definitely a concern if you are on the scene after an officer has been assaulted. I sure as heck wouldn't make any sudden moves.

tanksoldier
November 11, 2006, 03:53 AM
Well, as noted in several posts before, you have to assess the situation.

My inclination would always be to offer whatever assistance was needed.

Unless it was immediately obvious that the officer was being taken to the cleaners I'd observe, evaluate and offer assistance.

If the officer is down you can use their radio to notify dispatch of the fact and advise them that you are a civilian on scene rendering assistance.

Socrates
November 11, 2006, 06:02 AM
No. Call 911.
I live in a city where there hasn't been a CCW issued by the police Chief in 30 years. If I am carrying, and, I use my gun to protect a police officer, I now have committed a criminal act., created by the unconstitutional act of the areas police chief.
In our PC world, I will be probably be prosecuted.
I will loose my investment in firearms, worth nearly 20 grand, for 3 years, while on probation. If convicted of a felony, I loose my 2nd amendment rights for life, and, as a school teacher, I will never be hired again, either way. I may well be sued for wrongful death, but, it would probably be kicked out of court, if witnesses, or the officer survived.

Police have to, at a certain point, take a stand. They allowed the Barett .50 BMG to be banned in Kali, while they were the only ones buying, and using them for action. No criminals had.

Police need to stand up for the rights of CCW. If they don't, they are on their own.

I would drive by, call on my cell phone(that's it's major purpose, emergencies) and stay clear, or leave.

I don't know what I'd do if the guy had a gun to the officer's head, and, I had a clear shot. I might have to take it, and risk everything.

I really hate to say this, but, I have to. In a way, these shootings of police officers are an excellent lesson for police officers. In Reading the thread posted above, officers discussed the feeling you get at a traffic stop. I've taught in ghetto schools, near Hunter's Point, ref in areas of Oakland, and, SF, I really shouldn't, and been around SF law enforcement, as a legal intern. In those areas, if I want to follow the law, I'm TOTALLY at the mercy, and random chance of some coked, or methed street gang. Avoidance is my only hope, and, lying in wait, I might just get mine.
After extensive training in martial arts, boxing, and kick boxing, that has saved my life and health, in a few random street attacks, and having lived through a number of major crisis situations, not to mention extensive weapons training, my only hope in these situations is going to have to be pepper spray. You feel scared in a traffic stop? Imagine it without the gun, and you get some idea of what I face on a daily basis.

Police, by their silence, and failure to be political, and respect the rights, and benefits of gunowners, have lost my willingness to risk wrecking my life to save them.

S

Jeff Dodson
November 11, 2006, 02:17 PM
Speaking as an Officer, DONT RUN UP FROM BEHIND IF THE FIGHTS ON. he might think its a buddy of the BG and then thats two against and that is grounds for deadly force. If you do stop when an Officer needs help, approach the Officer from the front, that will automatically put you at the BG's back and surprise him.