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cosmolinelover
September 27, 2006, 06:28 PM
So its around 7pm, yesterday evening. I've just returned from the University and I'm currently waiting for my buddy to show up. We've got a big test to study for. I'm chatting with the apartment manager in my apartment when we hear some odd noises. We step outside and there's some kind of commotion going on about 5 doors down from mine. I ignore it as just another crazy drunken meth head thug acting inappropriately (sadly thats the status quo around here these days) and I step back inside my apartment.

Moments later I hear a loud BANG and right away my stomach drops, this was no firecracker, something was definately wrong. Next thing my phone is ringing and its my buddy and he tells me he's huddled behind a trash dumpster out front and as far as he can tell someone just discharged a shotgun in the parking lot. At this point we don't know whats going on, only that its not good, and my buddy needs to get out of the potential line of fire. So we choreograph a way for him to make it to my front door with out putting himself in the line of fire (as best as we can at least) and he gets inside. At that point he tells me that as he was walking up to my apartment he witnessed a man toting a shotgun and pointing it at a group of people threatening to "kill them all" (in more colorful thug terms).

So I get to the safe, grab my Glock 22 and give it to my buddy (he being a veteran seemed a lot calmer than me about the situation), and I upgrade to a Beretta since the kel-tec in my hip is feeling mighty small considering there's a guy blasting a shotgun outfront.

At this point, we don't know if anyone has been wounded, or whether the guy is still out there or not. I call the police and they seem more concerned if someone has been shot as opposed to someone currently shooting. But nonetheless they say they're on their way.

So I call the apartment manager, knowing he was outside during the incident, to get a report. He tells me the wacko got in his truck and drunkenly drove away. We check the scene once we know its clear, and it apperas no one was hurt, wherever the man shot he didn't apparently hit anyone (that we know about).

20+ minutes later the Police show up, they take a statement from the men outside, never bother to talk to me or my buddy who witnessed the incident. And before you know it they're gone.

After the fact I found out the guy was apparently beating his wife, and threatening to kill her, apparently she escaped the apartment and began pounding on people's doors for help. Then when she got the necessary attention the BG came out and threatened to kill the people attempting to come to her aid (and yes he pointed the shotgun at all of them).

I'm still shaken up about this incident. I know I probably did a million things wrong yesterday but I'm just glad no one was hurt. In retrospect I keep thinking other courses of action would've been more appropriate, like defending the people in the line of fire (which we both knew were there). However at the time it seemed illogical to even look out my window and potentially open myself up to fire.

I have no doubt that had I been outside at the time I would have had no choice but to defend myself and everyone else around me. However I chose to stay inside, and ultimately I could have failed in protecting others.

I don't know what else to say, other than I'm really shaken up about the incident. I hope I did the right thing, it sure seemed at the time the best thing to do was to take cover and stay safe. I'd like to think that if the situation would have progressed further I would have taken action, but now I'm second guessing myself. Getting in a gun fight is just not something that I find very appealing.

Let me know what you guys think, what you would have done, whether what I did was the safe thing or the lame thing. I don't know what would have happened had I been outside or had my buddy been armed (he usually is), but it could've played out far worse I guess.

-Cosmo

silicon wolverine
September 27, 2006, 06:31 PM
Sounds to me like you did alright. The only hting i would have done different is if the shooter left in a vehicle i would have tried to get a license number/vehicle descrption to the cops.

SW

springmom
September 27, 2006, 06:38 PM
You did well. You did what you needed to do (got your friend inside safely), called the police, called the apartment manager. You did NOT play Superman, for which you get a round of applause.

Good job.

Springmom

bartonkj
September 27, 2006, 06:42 PM
Don't feel bad about not runnning to the rescue. While we cannot rely on LEOs to be there when we as individuals need protection - and therefore, we must protect ourselves, that doen't necessarily mean you should put yourself in harm's way to protect those you don't know in a tactical situation like you describe and for which you aren't prepared. In addition to the potential for physical harm to yourself by running out to confront someone - you have very real potential legal consequences you may face afterwards. Please don't misunderstand me. I very much believe in helping others in need and I'm not saying just ignore it and it will go away or just ignore it because its none of your business. But something like what you described is better left alone except for calling the police and gathering as much information as possible (which you did).

Trip20
September 27, 2006, 06:49 PM
I'm still shaken up about this incident. I know I probably did a million things wrong yesterday but I'm just glad no one was hurt.
Glad things turned out alright. That's definitely a frightening situation to say the least.

In retrospect I keep thinking other courses of action would've been more appropriate, like defending the people in the line of fire (which we both knew were there). However at the time it seemed illogical to even look out my window and potentially open myself up to fire.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I know we all like to think we'll swing in and save the day, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

I'll go out on a limb and assume this gave you an even greater respect for the LEO's that confront this sort of thing head-on each and every day. I don't want their job, nuh uh.

...I upgrade to a Beretta since the kel-tec in my hip is feeling mighty small...

Do you think this experience will make you reconsider what you carry? I'm not baiting with this question, I have no particular loyalty to any caliber or firearm, I'm just curious.

john in jax
September 27, 2006, 07:00 PM
Just my proverbial 2 cents but I think your (CCW) gun is for protecting YOU and yours, not the neighborhood or apartment complex. I mean if a situation arises and you need to defend yourself or others, that is one thing - - defend away. BUT I (emphasis on the "me", personally) do not feel the need to "go out" and protect others.

There was some uncommon roudiness going on across the street last night - -with today's youth I couldn't tell if it was good or bad shouting, so I checked my .45 and was VERY alert/watchful from INSIDE my house until some vehicles left and everything got real quiet again (situation normal). I think you did the right thing, sit tight and leave the protecting to the LEO's.

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 07:10 PM
20+ minutes later the Police show up, they take a statement from the men outside, never bother to talk to me or my buddy who witnessed the incident. And before you know it they're gone.


This thread has "cop-bashing" in its destiny, I'm almost sure of it.

I myself feel the desire to do some bashing after the above nugget (which just proves once again to me that we are on our own, and should never expect cops to come rushing to our aid, even when the call is about a shotgun fired). But I'm not going to go into a diatrible and get the thread closed. Suffice it to say that i think the above description speaks volumes.

After the fact I found out the guy was apparently beating his wife, and threatening to kill her, apparently she escaped the apartment and began pounding on people's doors for help. Then when she got the necessary attention the BG came out and threatened to kill the people attempting to come to her aid (and yes he pointed the shotgun at all of them).

I wonder if these are people who own guns; and if they don't, did this make them consider doing so.


-azurefly

ITEOTWAWKI
September 27, 2006, 07:12 PM
Why does it take 20+ minutes for the police to arrive to reports of gunshots!? I HATE that. (Especially when they can respond within 2 minutes for anything else)

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 07:14 PM
I'll go out on a limb and assume this gave you an even greater respect for the LEO's that confront this sort of thing head-on each and every day. I don't want their job, nuh uh.

Why does it take 20+ minutes for the police to arrive to reports of gunshots!? I HATE that. (Especially when they can respond within 2 minutes for anything else)

Maybe it has something to do with them confronting this sort of thing head-on each and every day. Maybe they're fed up, and just want to avoid confrontation now.

ITEOTWAWKI
September 27, 2006, 07:17 PM
If they're tired of protecting and serving then perhaps they can go deliver pizzas. What if someone had been shot? What if it had been your loved one hit and bleeding but it took 20+ minutes for help to arrive. Being tired of the grind is no excuse for taking this bloody long. NOT ACCEPTABLE. Moreso if they were simply 'tired of it'. What the heck kind of attitude is that?

cosmolinelover
September 27, 2006, 07:18 PM
This thread has no intention of cop bashing at all, I was merely dictating what happened as I perceived it. It does however re-enforce the idea that we are all on our own, but I never stopped believing that anyway.

I'll go out on a limb and assume this gave you an even greater respect for the LEO's that confront this sort of thing head-on each and every day. I don't want their job, nuh uh.

I agree with you 100% Trip, I have the utmost respect for what our LEO's do for us. They put themselves in harms way for the good of the public self-lessly everyday.

That being said, I think there are significant bureaucratic problems with the police administration, otherwise I have no doubt those guys would have been out here much quicker. It comes down to what the dispatchers tell them to do, and what to prioritize. I doubt any LEO sits in his car and hears the call "shots fired" only to sit and wait a while to respond.

azredhawk44
September 27, 2006, 07:20 PM
You did perfectly.

You got your friend inside safely.

You aren't parking lot security. You aren't deputized law enforcement. To be honest, you knew of an altercation from which you were currently safe. Going outside to engage the bad guy could be construed by some folks as premeditated murder... depends on a blue county / red county type of thing.

You got good hardware into your hands and somebody else's that you trust, and secured what you feasibly could within your realm of responsibility. Good on you.

Have a beer tonite with your buddy and relax... after all, you earned it after that.

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 07:29 PM
ITEOTWAWKI, I was not offering my post as a true rationale for the delay; I was being cynical in offering that explanation.

I agree with you.


There is not much that should excuse the cops taking 20 minutes to arrive on scene, unless a) the incident took place in a remote, rural location b) a large part of the on-shift police force was occupied with a different, major incident and had to be diverted from way across town, or couldn't leave right away due to the priority of the first call c) there was serious inclement weather impeding progress of the responding officers. (Anyone else, chime in with other reasonable excuses I may have overlooked.)

-azurefly

john in jax
September 27, 2006, 07:32 PM
Just my proverbial 2 cents but I think your (CCW) gun is for protecting YOU and yours, not the neighborhood or apartment complex. I mean if a situation arises and you need to defend yourself or others, that is one thing - - defend away. BUT I (emphasis on the "me", personally) do not feel the need to "go out" and protect others.

There was some uncommon roudiness going on across the street last night - -with today's youth I couldn't tell if it was good or bad shouting, so I checked my .45 and was VERY alert/watchful from INSIDE my house until some vehicles left and everything got real quiet again (situation normal). I think you did the right thing, sit tight and leave the protecting to the LEO's.

ITEOTWAWKI
September 27, 2006, 07:33 PM
Azure...I knew that...honest...

Trip20
September 27, 2006, 07:45 PM
I know that on the individual officer level, for the most part these guys have no problem putting their life in danger for perfect strangers -- and it's just part of the gd job.

Why don't we talk about that aspect for once?

That is the aspect of law enforcement my comment brought to the discussion. But (not) surprisingly enough we're veering towards crap discussion about how cops suck.

But I'm not going to go into a diatrible and get the thread closed.

Who are you kidding? You're already knowingly steering this towards thread closure.

oldbillthundercheif
September 27, 2006, 08:13 PM
A lot of times 911 operators don't take you seriously unless you are hysterical and jabbering on about the situation or if they can actually hear gunshots on the phone. It's hard for them to believe that civilians can be calm in a dangerous situation so unless you are flipping out, they probably figure you are overreacting to fireworks or something simmilar.

Don't be afraid to scream: "Oh #$%$! He shootin'!" that's what they are used to hearing in such situations.

hehz0r
September 27, 2006, 08:53 PM
Yeah, part of the problem might be too many people crying wolf, I have a friend who had a neighbor calling cops on occasion whenever they heard a very loud noise. If you are living in a rougher section of town, you might have trouble getting assistance simply because they get too many complaints that they can't follow up on. Obviously it isn't good, but what can you do besides provide for yourself?

armedandsafe
September 27, 2006, 08:57 PM
I have asked a question in every class I have taught concerning this type of scenario.

You hear gunfire. You go to the window of your second-floor apartment and see a child lying in the center courtyard, bleeding. Out of the corner of your eye, you see a muzzle-flash and another child falls. Turning toward that flash, you see someone with a rifle, aiming down to the courtyard. Because that person is to your right and almost in the same plane as your window, you lean out to get a clear shot. Someone across the courtyard from you shoots you, because he "saw someone with a gun." You complain that he shot the wrong person.

Qustion: Were you about to shoot at "someone with a gun" without positively verifying that that is the right shooter?

Pops

Samurai
September 28, 2006, 09:36 AM
You still alive? Is your buddy still alive? Yes?

Then you did FINE.

garryc
September 28, 2006, 10:34 AM
v from the Ohio Attoney generals handbook on CCW
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person
would have had the right to use self-defense. Under Ohio law, a
person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any
more force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm
threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect
another, has to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that
the person he protected was in immediate danger of serious bodily
harm or death and that deadly force was the only way to protect the
person from that danger. Furthermore, the defendant must also
show that the protected person was not at fault for creating the
situation and did not have a duty to leave or avoid the situation.
WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking
matters into their own hands and acting as law enforcement
agents. This is true even if the person thinks he is performing a
good deed by protecting someone or helping law enforcement.
The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a person risks criminal
charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects the person who
21
was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person did not
create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere,
you may face criminal charges because your use of deadly force
is not justified. If you do not know all the facts and interfere,
you will not be justified to use force. It does not matter that you
mistakenly believed another was in danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact
that you may be putting yourself and others in danger. If you
use your handgun to interfere in a situation, and an officer
arrives on the scene, the officer will not be able to tell if you are
the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to
carry a concealed handgun does not deputize you as a law
enforcement agent. Officers are trained to protect members of
the community, handle all types of situations and enforce the
law. Do not allow the privilege to carry a concealed handgun
give you a false sense of security or empowerment. Let law
enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police.
Conclusion: Self-Defense Issues
If the defendant fails to prove any one of the three conditions
for self-defense or defense of another, he fails to justify his use of
deadly force. If convicted, an individual will be sentenced accordingly.
Defense of Property
There must be immediate threat of serious bodily harm or
death in order to use deadly force. Protecting property alone does
not allow for the use of deadly force. Therefore, a property owner
may use reasonable, but not deadly, force when he honestly believes
that the force will protect his property from harm.
22
If a person’s property is being attacked or threatened, he may
not use deadly force unless he reasonably believes it was the only
way to protect himself or another from being killed or receiving
serious bodily harm.
Deadly force can never be used to protect property only.
Deadly force can never be used solely to protect property no matter
where the threat to the property occurs.
Civil Liability
Even if the situation does not lead to criminal charges or result
in a criminal conviction, the accused may still face civil liability.
The victim or his survivors could sue the accused for the harm
from his use of deadly force. A “wrongful death” lawsuit is a
common legal action for money damages brought by the survivors
of a victim who was killed. The victim or his survivors must prove
that it is more probable than not that the defendant’s use of force
was inappropriate or excessive and it caused the victim’s injuries
or death. If this is proven, the victim or his survivors may be
entitled to recover money from the defendant as punishment and/or
compensation, even if the victim was breaking the law at the time
force was used against him.
The law requires that the force used must be reasonable and
necessary to prevent the danger. So even if the victim was wrong
and caused the situation, if the force was inappropriate or excessive
in a particular situation, the defendant risks criminal and/or
civil punishment.
Self-defense is an affirmative defense that a defendant may
assert against civil liability. The defendant must prove that he
reasonably believed that he or another was in immediate danger of
serious bodily harm or death, and he could only prevent the harm
by deadly force.
23
Conclusion
Carrying a concealed handgun is a privilege that does not bring
with it the right to use deadly force. The appropriateness of using
any force depends on the specific facts of each and every situation.

So, in Ohio, if the woman had done anything to cause the incident, and you shot the perp, you are subject to procecution for a homocide. You must prove that she didn't start the incident. Now if you were defending your freind, who had no part in either starting the incident or helping the woman, then you could use that as an affermative defence. But note, the burden of proof is on you not the state

marlboroman84
September 28, 2006, 11:20 AM
Kinda piggybacking on garryc here, but when I was in CCW class my instructor told a story about a scene he responded to once. A guy had shot another guy and killed him after he observed what appeared to be "the man push a woman up against a wall, then point a knife at her that had blood on it." The guy, thinking the woman was about to be killed, fired killing the guy almost instantly. Come to find out after the cops took statements, the lady was a crazy ex-g/f and was of the mind if she couldn't have this guy nobody could and had tried to kill him. This guy came along about a second after she stabbed the guy and was pulling the knife out. She admitted this to the police at the scene. The man that shot the other guy was not charged, because of Tennessee's "reasonable man" definition, but as my instructor said is he gonna face a civil suit? Probably. At the very least he has to deal with killing an innocent guy for the rest of his life.

That all being said Cosmo I think you did perfect. I think the one thing "most" people on TFL agree on is not to get involved in other people's business when it comes to CCW. If you see something happen from the very beginning I.E a guy walks into wal-mart while you're in line and starts blasting. Take him out by all means if you choose. However, if you come into the middle of something
unsure of what fully is going on, stay down until the gun is pointed at you and yours.

threegun
September 28, 2006, 12:37 PM
My first priority is protecting my family and friends. If I can help a fellow citizen great. That said you did the right thing by not playing cop. Going outside to an unknown threat (unless necessary) is crazy. Help if you can just use your brain.......like you seem to have done.

Nigelcorn
September 28, 2006, 09:07 PM
Yeah, you definitely did the right thing. It is great to try and help others out, but if you have a couple of hand guns and the shooter has a shotgun...I don't like the odds.

simplekindaman
September 29, 2006, 12:14 AM
well, i have a story i think might tie in.
last july my neighbors house cought on fire.
the husband, and grandfather, was apparently still in his room, while his wife made it out with their grandson. i told my brother to call the fire deoartment, now, and took off across the lawn. despite everything everyone has told me since i was 5 years old, i decided to go into the house and get that man out.

dumb idea. the front door was already burning, so i decided to go in through the garage. i opened the door and got a good lung full of burning furniture smoke. it was solid smoke, so i decided ill try his bedroom window instead. i grabbed the nearest solid object nest to me(a shovel), and proceeded to knock out a window and drag this ma to his saftey.

he was in the back yard trying to save the house with a water hose.

i spent the next two weeks coughing my lungs out till my throat bled. had i entered the building, dressed in my protective swim trunks and bare feet, i would probably had suffocated or burned. if i had tried to break inthe window, i would probably be cut to ribins by the brkoen glass, as i was only wearing nylon shorts(which if contacted fire would have been very, very ugly).

so, what i mean is, make sure yourself is safe, and you know what your doing. if you cant take care of yourself, then you wont be able to take care of anyone else.
you did fine, friend, and noone died, it was a good day.

azurefly
September 29, 2006, 12:42 AM
Who are you kidding? You're already knowingly steering this towards thread closure.


So... while I'm known for being outspoken, even a bit too outspoken, you actually suspect me of deliberately trying to bring about the end of my being able to speak my views on this subject?

I'm telling you I wanted not to get the thread closed, and you essentially are calling me a liar.

What, I can't speak my opinion that the cops have no valid excuse for taking 20 minutes to get to a SHOTGUN SHOOTING? :barf:


-azurefly

hot sauce
September 29, 2006, 05:17 PM
The reason it took 20+ minutes is simple. It sounds like you do not live in the best part of town. I lived in the not so great part of town "ghetto" up until a few months ago. It was pretty scary sometimes esp. new years eve. Boom...Boom...wait was that last one a gunshot? All of my guns were loaded at all times because home invasions are an everyday thing there. A few guy's were shot one time and it took the cops three hours to get there. My advice to you is to move. I left that all of that behind me and moved to the peacefull country.

JIH
September 29, 2006, 06:34 PM
You did the right thing and all you really could have done.

Now, do another right thing.... move :D

kentak
September 30, 2006, 07:55 PM
I'll add my vote for moving. Unless, of course, you enjoy that kind of excitement. ;)