PDA

View Full Version : Robbers case the place???


threegun
September 27, 2006, 05:58 AM
Monday the 18th a Value Pawn only three blocks away was robbed at gun point by 2 armed bad guys @ 10:32AM. Employees and even customers were forced to the ground and held for the duration of the robbery. Police released the video of the act and of course I watched it a few times just in case the duo enter our store to case the place. Guess what 2 days ago I believed that one of the men came in. A man fitting the general description (height and stature) walked in the shop stopped looked around for about 3 seconds then left without a question or a spoken word. As a precaution we took his tag number and vehicle info. It gets better now.......yesterday a man fitting the description of the other robber came in and did a complete walk thru without a word and with little attention to the merchandise on display. Again we took vehicle info. Then it hit me (not being a detective my brain doesn't work well like one) I noticed an anomaly on the second suspected bad guys body that would have been visible during the robbery and would let us know if we had been cased or not by the robbers. I quickly called detectives and asked if the large robber had this anomaly (keeping anomaly secret because detectives are doing the same). His response was chilling "do you have surveillance" followed by "I will be there shortly". Although they refused to tell me if the robber had the anomaly why would they come running if the robber didn't have it?

What would you guys do now? I am bringing my AR-15 in to work until they are captured to compliment my holstered and visible G-35 and 2 spare mags. We also have a winchester defender shotgun loaded with buck for the other employees area. We are being extra careful. Other than that can I do more?

Epyon
September 27, 2006, 06:25 AM
I noticed you're in FL, open carry is allowed at your workplace? I know publically it's not allowed but if your store is okay with it then that's cool. Just make sure you can draw quickly if worse comes to worst. As for anything else I can think of, try to have more employees working, if this is two men. Have three people at work, if you have another employee in the back doing paperwork, he can ambush the robbers should something happen. Perhaps plan routes of escape with your employees if need be in order to increase your options. Oh yeah, have the cops on speed dial too, unless your workplace has silent alarms you can trip. Most importantly have you and your employees keep their wits about them, and stay alert. It appears that as much as none of us want to get robbed, you have the advantage of a forewarning. I hope others can give better advice than me, and I hope things work out for you. Hopefully these filthy bottom scrapers get caught BEFORE harming anyone else.


Epyon

CDH
September 27, 2006, 07:30 AM
Unless I'm told different depending on some State laws, open OR concealed carry is legal in ALL states if you're on private property and local ordinances haven't totally banned handguns (and if the owner of the property doesn't object).

In this case, I don't know what good an AR-15 would do you unless you elected to actually carry it all day long slung over your shoulder. If you did that, you might find that quite a few people walk in and walk out without buying anything once they get a glimpse of you with the black rifle. :eek:

Keep your pistol on you cocked and locked, and preferably concealed, and just be ready to defend yourself at a millisecond's notice. I think that it's safe to say that you HAVE been cased by the way you describe the incidents.
At least in this particular case, and contrary to a lot of holdups, YOU have the advantage because you know beforehand what the BG's look like so you can be even more alert the moment they walk in the door.

Carter

springmom
September 27, 2006, 07:53 AM
You've done everything you can. Unless you can function totally as an "armed guard" such that the only thing you are doing is guard duty. I'm with Carter, I'm not sure I'd use the AR... If I were a customer and I saw you with that, I'd think YOU were the robber :eek: :D

Keep us posted. Stay safe.

Springmom

ceetee
September 27, 2006, 11:04 AM
Have a plan. Discuss the plan with any/all employees that work there. The plan should include things like "When anyone says the 'code word', then Janet goes into the back room and stands with the phone, having already dialed '9' and '1'."

Yes, it is legal to carry openly as long as the owner of the business doesn't object... encourage all employees to do so. I understand the desire for the AR-15, but I don't see much potential for use. Make sure your panic button (if you have one) and your cameras are all working, and you have fresh tapes installed in all the recorders. Have onerecorder out in the open that can be compromised, and another hooked in-line that's hidden.

Above all, keep alert, and aware.

Eghad
September 27, 2006, 11:08 AM
leave the AR-15 at home and bring another shotgun.....

mete
September 27, 2006, 11:26 AM
"visible G35" ? When they see the gun [especially if they've cased the place] you have given up the element of surprize.That means they may shoot you first to eliminate the problem !!!! Keep it concealed ! Forget the rifle .Get training and practice !

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 12:48 PM
Threegun, what kind of store is it that you work in? A pawn shop, like the one that was robbed?


I think you deserve commendation for being alert enough to have spotted these guys, and gotten the police properly involved.

Did they offer you and your fellow workers (or the business owner) any advice or recommendations? (It seems to me that if they do believe you've been cased by the original robbers, they ought to have.)

It seems to make sense what other people said, about not bothering with the AR-15. I'd keep the G35, and go put a G27 on my ankle if I were you. (You may well end up benefiting from having a backup gun.)

Keep sharp, and stay safe.


-azurefly

guntotin_fool
September 27, 2006, 01:54 PM
One of the gun shop near here has a video camera at eye level as you leave the store. under it a sign says "just in case you were thinking of visiting us after hours......" That store has never been hit and I think it is a prime deterent. No one wants a close up video tape of them floating around the news station if they hit the shop.

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 02:10 PM
That's cool!



-azurefly

Samurai
September 27, 2006, 02:44 PM
Conceal the handgun, lest they run in shooting!

Dirty_Harry
September 27, 2006, 03:31 PM
Why would you bring another shotgun over the AR-15? You have more accurate shots and you can just put it under the desk concealed.

threegun
September 27, 2006, 06:04 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys (and gals Springmom).

In this case, I don't know what good an AR-15 would do you unless you elected to actually carry it all day long slung over your shoulder

I brought it just in case we get the drop on them (since we know what they look like) and would only use it if I have time to grab it.

leave the AR-15 at home and bring another shotgun.....

Flipped a coin this morning and the AR won LOL. I'm very competent with either but having a precision and a scattergun felt better.

You've done everything you can. Unless you can function totally as an "armed guard" such that the only thing you are doing is guard duty.
I tried to do this as much as possible today only my co-worker was the guard....thanks for the tip mom.

Mete,visible G35" ? When they see the gun [especially if they've cased the place] you have given up the element of surprise.That means they may shoot you first to eliminate the problem !!!! Keep it concealed ! Forget the rifle .Get training and practice !

14 years or so ago I felt just like you about hiding the sidearms. My boss said that just the sight of the guns on his employees would deter robberies something called omni presence. Guess what he was correct after his 25 plus years owning 2 pawn shops neither has ever been robbed. Shops on either side of ours get robbed several times per year each. Even though history has proven him correct about displaying the weapon in plain view I still realize that if we are robbed it will be with overwhelming force or guns blazing. I am the best trained, fastest, and dare I say the most diligent (not trying to brag) because of my understanding of how a robbery is going to have to be carried out to be successful against us. A few of my coworkers simply cannot be made to believe that it can happen.

Threegun, what kind of store is it that you work in? A pawn shop, like the one that was robbed?


Yes a pawnshop. Less than 3 blocks away.

I think you deserve commendation for being alert enough to have spotted these guys, and gotten the police properly involved.

Thanks

Did they offer you and your fellow workers (or the business owner) any advice or recommendations? (It seems to me that if they do believe you've been cased by the original robbers, they ought to have.)


They just said to use the electronic door lock, be careful, and take care of business if they do come in with weapons. They saw my G-35 and 2 spare mags and laughed (like saying we ain't gonna get robbed) then found the shotgun and laughed some more. Had I brought the Bushmaster with tandem 30 rounders they probably would have ****** themselves LOL.

Anyway gotta go time to close the shop..........don't worry we will be extra careful leaving.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 27, 2006, 06:16 PM
Get a vest for under your clothes. Get a BUG for your pocket. Someone gets the drop on you, the AR isn't going to be much use. Also, you could be disarmed of the open carry gun - even if you try max awareness.

Might the store hire a security guard for a few days for an outside presence? Even a minimum wage type might dissuade the folks to go elsewhere and then they might be caught.

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 06:47 PM
Yeah, and then the "minimum-wage type" and the company he works for then sue the pawn shop, threegun, and anyone else in a five-mile radius because they knew they were exposing him to the likelihood of an armed robbery. :rolleyes:

C'mon, people -- "think 2006!"




...Really. I wonder what the "liability" in a court of today would be, if a company went and hired a window-dressing "deterrent" of a security guard, and he was cut down by the very people his hirers were expecting to come along.

What waivers and hold-harmless clauses does someone who works in that capacity have to sign in order to take the job?


-azurefly

AmesJainchill
September 27, 2006, 07:36 PM
Get a vest for under your clothes. Get a BUG for your pocket. Someone gets the drop on you, the AR isn't going to be much use. Also, you could be disarmed of the open carry gun - even if you try max awareness.

Can't say this enough--body armor will keep you alive and if you're alive you can shoot.

Having two guns is better than one.

threegun
September 28, 2006, 10:15 AM
I will be wearing my vest and the kel-tec p-32 until they are captured.....thanks Glenn. Its funny how something so obvious can be so easily forgotten and I own 2 vests. I use them ironically for high danger situations (hello) such as alarm calls to the pawn shop.

I disagree however about the AR and shotgun being useless. At our shop we see most customers well in advance and only on very rare occasions when we are slammed do we fail to track incomers. Unless they come in guns hidden and then pull them in which case our sidearms are fastest. They will be useful if an attack is coming and we see it in time.....better than a handgun for sure.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 28, 2006, 10:16 AM
So when did you graduate law school, Azure? You tell the company why you want the guard - duh. :rolleyes:

Oh, no - it's better to plan how to do a Doug. How do I win this gun fight, rather than a reasonable deterrence plan.


A person comes into the shop and draws on you when you are not paying that strict attention (yes, I am always in orange because I wear a bag of orange juice on my head). They say:


OH, I am going to rob you. Don't move for your obvious gun or bend down or walk over to the shotgun or AR so you can shoot me and be a hero on TFL.


Or put a guard outside, get a vest and a BUG - I am much more practical than the how to shoot'em up brigade.

FrontSight
September 28, 2006, 10:33 AM
I'd put up bullet proof glass in a hurry, and a lock on the door where you have to be buzzed in & buzzed out, along with a camera & a tv screen that shows them they are being taped

Glenn E. Meyer
September 28, 2006, 11:12 AM
Thinking about this - the answers vary about two points:

1. Deter the criminal so it doesn't happen
2. How to fight.

The first choice is much better.

The second sounds like more 'fun' unless you actually think about a fight going bad. I've read of a few pawn shop/gun store shootouts where the good guy 'won' but I'm sure he would much rather of it not happening as negative consequences occur for quite a bit.

What round for your AR vs. an outside guard, a vest, glass or camera? What fun are the latter choices?

Someone with brains and surprise will stop you from getting the AR. Sure, it's useful against a doofus that gives you warning. Give me a couple of folks and planning and you are toast.

BTW, this is a good reason to go back to my FOF training point from another thread. Not having been in the military, things like FOF in class or the NTI during simulated robberies or attacks - even when everyone is on alert convinces you that you want to avoid this. You get shot.

Static target matches and internet discussions among civilians tend to default to gun based fun and heroics. In FOF, fleeing in terror is much more common and quite useful.

I remember an Insights class where Greg was teaching us car tricks and another group was in a building for a simulated robbery. The door burst open and you saw a group of well-armed but civilian 'customers' hauling ass out of there as the firefight continued in the 'store'. Seemed like a good idea to him and us. Avoidance and deterrence are much better in the planning stage than which round to use on the zombie.

Try to deter the robbery rather than putting that much effort into the firepower without a layer of deterrence.

threegun
September 28, 2006, 12:29 PM
Sorry guys I should have listed our prevention/deterrent capability. We have an extensive Internet capable digital video system complete with outside cameras. Both locations monitor the other as much as possible as does the owner of the shops. We have a door locking system (although hardly ever used). We also have the omni presence of our exposed firearms. Zero robberies in 25 years including a decade of being the only store in Tampa open 24 hours is pretty hard to ignore, especially when others are being robbed often. Every employee openly carries (some also conceal). Until recently (friends getting other jobs and such) we were all well trained. Now most can shoot but the training amounts to the basics required by our boss.....with me being the only holdout.

Glenn hit the nail on the head in prevention. I don't want a shootout. We have taken steps (quite successfully) to avoid robberies. When I am working (being the manager) I demand that every customer is talked to immediately upon entering (usually a greeting followed by how we may help them). This has more to do with getting a feel for who is in our shop than anything else. Most people with bad intentions give off bad vibes and the alert goes way up. Occasionally a customers first steps into the shop cause alarm bells to go off like the two that fit the description of the robbers. Had either men gone for concealed weapons they would have been behind in the reactionary curve two fold, plus we had cover. Neither of these guys needed to be talked to for us to feel the bad vibes and my co worker and I both felt the butterfly's. I did tell the second suspected robber to have a nice day.......he said nothing before walking out.

Someone with brains and surprise will stop you from getting the AR. Sure, it's useful against a doofus that gives you warning. Give me a couple of folks and planning and you are toast.

The two main ways of getting us are to either lull us into lowering our guard and then pulling a gun or by entering guns blazing determined to eliminate us immediately. The first could work if the robber is in complete control of his adrenaline and emotions although our camera system will catch their faces very good. The second will result in a shootout that the bad guys will be at complete disadvantage in as they will have to act early exposing their intention at distance while in the open. Can you think of another way to get at us? Both of us are armed. We scan and converse with everyone upon entering (unless the bells are already going off). We are all versed in weapons retention and have discussed what the other is to do if a struggle ensues on the show floor (the most likely place for an attempt). Please explain how you might get at us so that we may better prepare.

The Canuck
September 28, 2006, 02:06 PM
threegun, first of all, you shouldn't advertise your deterrent capabilities. If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here.

I don't think you will see these guys again. Criminals do not like the chance of being laid low by the intended victims. For the most part, the only time confrontational crime against armed targets occurs is when there is the possibility of a HUGE payoff. So unless you get a Treasury Department drop off, I think these clowns will move on.

If I recall you did say they made that you were armed, so I can't see them coming for the shop. If they do, they are pretty stupid. However, having said that... Don't let your guard down. They just may well be stupid enough to hit the place.

As for ways to get at you? Oh yeah, I could tell you some horror stories of the things I did outside the box that really, really work.

threegun
September 28, 2006, 03:29 PM
If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here.

Definitely not high tech or hard core.
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?s=search&storyid=39876

Notice one guy lay his gun on the counter. He's the guy that I believe came in first. The bigger man with striped shirt came in the next day and yes he made my gun and hopefully the (I'm on to you) smile on my face.

The bad thing is we always have criminal attracting commodities in the shop such as guns, gold, and greenbacks all the time. Day in and day out we are loaded with all three. The good thing is that so are the others Pawn Shops (minus the guns for most) maybe more loaded for those who also cash checks and offer payday loans. They don't allow employees to carry open or concealed. Why would the bad guys hit us when they have so many others? I don't think they will but I will prepare as if they are.

threegun, first of all, you shouldn't advertise your deterrent capabilities. If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here

Hope they find out. I want them to know we see them comming from multiple locations (meaning three different addresses). I want them to know that we are trained and armed with several weapons for every occassion from close range to far. That their picture has been captured at three locations eliminating any chance of removing video evidence. Finally I want them to know that I won't be fighting for the money (it ain't mine) I will be fighting for my life and my family.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 28, 2006, 04:45 PM
Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.

I think it is a bad idea for me to discuss my genius assault plans, and with no offense - I wouldn't share them with folks I don't know personally. I really mean no offense. :)

threegun
September 28, 2006, 09:11 PM
I understand Glenn. I don't think the idiots in the video have your intelligence. Besides if someone wants you dead bad enough.....you will assume room temperature. I just want to prepare as best as possible regardless.

Doggieman
October 16, 2006, 10:42 PM
I always remember the remark "Perps are looking for a score, not a gunfight." I'd advertise with the local shady characters (if you run a pawn shop you know who I'm talking about) that you're armed to the teeth. It'll get around to those who might want to knock you off and they'll probably leave you alone.

And I agree with those who said lose the AR and get another shotgun for this purpose. Unless you think they have body armor.

Double Naught Spy
October 17, 2006, 04:42 AM
Monday the 18th a Value Pawn only three blocks away was robbed at gun point by 2 armed bad guys @ 10:32AM. Employees and even customers were forced to the ground and held for the duration of the robbery.

Yes, they do that. The even put customers on the ground as customers are a threat to them just like employees. The notion that "even cusomers were forced to the ground and held" is nothing unusual.

I will be wearing my vest and the kel-tec p-32 until they are captured

Wait, you believe that two bad guys who already have a history of takeover robbery have cased your place and all you are carrying on your person is a P-32? Given that you can carry a gun in your shop, don't you think it would be much more wise to carry something more substantial?

I disagree however about the AR and shotgun being useless. At our shop we see most customers well in advance and only on very rare occasions when we are slammed do we fail to track incomers. Unless they come in guns hidden and then pull them in which case our sidearms are fastest. They will be useful if an attack is coming and we see it in time.....better than a handgun for sure.

A long gun isn't useless, sure enough, but the question is one of access. You may not have time to access your stowed long gun. That is just one of those logistical realities. In fact, depending on how good the bad guys are, you may be hard pressed to access a carried gun in time. As for tracking incoming customers, good luck. Since they know you have cameras, if they come in, they will come with guns hidden most likely.

threegun
October 17, 2006, 05:51 AM
Double Naught,
Since they know you have cameras, if they come in, they will come with guns hidden most likely.

They knew value pawn had cameras and had masks on upon entry. Trust me when I tell you that it would be ugly for them if they try coming in with masks on as we will know intent in advance.

Also I carry a Glock 35 in a super belt slide holster. The vest and kel-tec are just additions until the perps are caught.

Doggie,I always remember the remark "Perps are looking for a score, not a gunfight." I'd advertise with the local shady characters (if you run a pawn shop you know who I'm talking about) that you're armed to the teeth. It'll get around to those who might want to knock you off and they'll probably leave you alone.


Our shops already have a reputation among local thugs of being hardened. We hear things like "these MFers don't play" and "they are all strapped up in here" all the time. I believe that it is the main reason we have never been robbed second only to the guns themselves. Also this is one of the reasons I bring the AR and display it. It garners more positive attention from the locals that anything else. I use to bring it once or twice a week now it comes daily.

Neophyte
October 19, 2006, 11:07 PM
I drag this link out every so often, but I think it still has some valuable information that applies here even if it's a bit of a derail.

"Flimflam" was a poster on rec.guns for many years who owned a pawn shop in Florida. He was both familiar and comfortable with firearms. One day, a man entered his shop to buy a firearm, a .357 I recall. Well, the check came back "delay" or "conditional denial" - I can't remember which. Flimflam refused the sale - even if the check might eventually clear he thought that the guy was just too... "off". Strange. Hinky.

How right he was. The man became extremely upset, went out to his car, and came back and stabbed Flimflam in the stomach with a ninja sword.

Here's the thread on rec.guns (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/tree/browse_frm/thread/cec050861934e23b/56f9d32a3191aab1) where Flimflam describes the attack. Everyone should read it, but at least note the following:To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go, with
one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I didn't
have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all ready to
go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot of things
around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon.

Anyway, just as I arrived at the desk, I realized that the damn piece
wasn't in the drawer, and I better change the plan-- again. I turned to
face the attaker, and was greeted with the most serious of the blade
thrusts, as it went into my lower left abdomen, and grabbed one of the
intestines. In a fit of panic/stupidity/desperation/whatever, I grabbed
the blade with my left hand, and kept him from running me all the way
through. It was at this moment I finally remembered my Beretta in my right
pocket.

He later says "at that moment, everything changed" and "I KNEW I was going to survive." Why? Because even though he had powerful hardware liberally scattered about the store, it was only the dinky pocket .25 that he had on him that saved his life.

By all means, add additional firearms if you wish. But if you can gather anything from this anecdote, I think it should be this - be prepared to be stupid. What I mean is that, for all the planning and strategy that you may come up with (and they may be good plans), you should have at least one fallback, no-thought-required method of defending yourself - a gun you have on your person. Note that for all Flimflam's experience and stashed hardware his brain suffered from a kind of mental "tunnel vision" during the attack - leading him astray into a place where he would have died had it not been for his silly little afterthought of a handgun.

What I'd emphasize to everyone, not just threegun, is that if your plan to defend yourself in an attack starts out "First, I go get my gun"....then you probably need a new plan. My 2 cents, and sorry for the derail.

Dr. Courtney
October 19, 2006, 11:28 PM
I think I'd carry a big 44 magnum openly, but unloaded so I could give it up easily in a struggle without fear of getting shot with it. I'd have a couple of .357 Sig P229's carried concealed, and I'd be wearing a kevlar vest.

I'd also give some thought to the arrangement of counters, shelving, and display type of stuff to be sure I had cover and the bad guys did not.

I don't really like the long gun in play in the customer area. It might make sense for there to be one locked (with quick access) in a stockroom or office for a person there to come to the aid of the clerk in the customer area, but having a loaded long gun in the customer area just sets up a contest for control of it that could go either way, unless the counter presents a more substantial barrier than most or it is always under the immediate control of a highly skilled defensive shooter in the sales area.

I had a cash-based retail business for a number of years in a high crime area, and we were cased a few times. I thought about keeping the long gun handy, but could not solve the problem of keeping it under immediate control while meeting customer needs. So I settled on two P229's in .357 Sig, both on my person. There was a long arm locked in close proximity, but it would have taken 5 or more seconds to get it unlocked and into action. The grace of God, a high level of awareness and looking the bad guys in the eye kept things peaceful. I didn't carry openly, because that would have aroused an undue level of scrutiny both from the local law enforcement and from the property managers. (I owned the business but not the location where business was conducted. I have never been slow to open carry on property I own.)

Michael Courtney

Rangefinder
October 20, 2006, 12:13 AM
I have to say--after watching both survellance videos, those two are not only ametures, but rock stupid. It was a little confusing at first because one of the videos is a reverse image (mirrored) and not enough writing is clear in either one to tell which one right away. Without audio, I have no idea what kind of communication may have been going on between them. But by appearance, I'd guess the extent of their plan was "You keep an eye on the people while I get the goods." There was no real organization to what they were doing. The guy doing the covering wandered away from the hostages several times to go collect a new customer who stumbled in and made it half way across the floor before being intercepted. He wasn't wearing a mask, he was holding it up with one hand the whole time while he held both a gun and what looked like a glove in the other hand. And from the door camera, I couldn't help but notice a guy in a red/patterned shirt come in at what already appeared to be a robbery in progress, wander causually left off-screen, and it didn't look as though he was ever noticed by either robber. The guy doing the grabbing put his weapon down several times, turned his back to the clerk after putting his weapon down, all while his cover was not covering, but distracted with collecting another customer. They both fumbled around as if they were just making it up as they went. I've seen better organization among fifth-graders. A little situational awareness and a basic plan in place should ruin these guys' day in no time at all.

threegun
October 20, 2006, 05:23 AM
Rangefinder, The guy behind the counter laid his gun down several times LOL. They were definitely stupid and unorganized.

Neophyte, A few months ago a kid (20 something) entered our shop with a ninja sword in a scabbard. One of our employees greeted him and informed him that we only accepted high quality swords which his was not. The youngster broke the seal on the sword about 2 inches (as if to begin to draw the sword). My coworker in a serious and firm voice told him "don't draw that blade". As if my coworker was speaking Chinese the kid drew the blade. My coworker drew his XD simultaneously. The blade was dropped and the kid ran from the store leaving his buddy to sheath the sword and apologize for his "retarded" friend.

Seven High
October 20, 2006, 06:15 AM
Just so that you are aware, in my area there have been reports of burglars following customers from gun stores to their residences. The burglars will then go to the residence when they feel that it is vacant and burglarize it. They are looking for guns mostly. Be aware of someone possibly following you when you leave a gun shop. Don't go directly home if you can.

Socrates
October 20, 2006, 09:24 AM
Hi
Yes, I've always felt the most vulnerable leaving a large restaurant, late at night, alone.

That would be the time to get taken by surprise, forced back into the business, and the advantage going to the crooks.

Does Florida have a gun safe law, like Kali?

S

PS

I don't think these guys are going to come anywhere near you store, but, they might go after someone in the parking lot...
PPS

Being open 24/7 does add a bit of a twist. They would have to take a hostage, and then be buzzed back in.


PPPS: Despite appearing to be not very good at this, they did walk out of the store with a couple of bags full of stuff. They really should move to San Francisco. They'd fit right in...

Doggieman
October 20, 2006, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the post Neophyte.. amazing read and an important lesson. I think that might be one problem with wearing a gun on you all the time -- you can forget it's there!

JohnKSa
October 20, 2006, 12:31 PM
Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.I think this is the best idea so far.

threegun
October 20, 2006, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.

I think this is the best idea so far.

Certainly was the funniest. Imagine the facial expression of the bad guys as they pull up and see that. Perhaps with a few rounds in them LOL.

DeathRodent
October 20, 2006, 03:10 PM
Forget the parking lot post them on the door so they see it when they walk in maybe add a red target circle!

If they recognize themselves and they still come in they mean big trouble

Chances are if they see themselves they will know you know and will not come back MOST of these BGs want the element of surprise not all but most

nbk2000
November 2, 2006, 02:17 AM
I wouldn't call them purely amateur (though definately not pro), as they didn't use any physical violence against anyone, like a lot of punks will.

The fact that the guy collecting the loot set his gun down several times shouldn't be used to dismiss the fact that his partner had several hostages at gunpoint.

What would you have had the girl do, grab the gun and start shooting? How many innocents die?

If they get the drop on you, you cooperate unless you have a clear opening, are able to exploit it, and aren't going to get anyone but yourself killed if you F it up.

There are plenty of trade magazine articles dealing with security architecture, such as controlled entrances, security partitions, etc, so reading up on them would be good, so as to prevent robbers from even attempting it in the first place.

Another thing is to try avoid fighting the last war. Or, in this case, focusing on the latest TV boogy-men.

There are plenty of other criminals out there who aren't these two. Being too focused on these two fools could cause you to miss another criminal casing you.

As for quick in-and-out peekers 'casing' you, that's not likely, as you can't case a place properly like that. I myself have walked in the door of a business that drew my interest from the outside, only to turn right around after 5 seconds when I realized they had nothing of interest to me inside, having only stepped five feet in the door.

(I realized, after re-reading the above, that it sounds like I was casing the places. No, I wasn't.)

If I was going to rob you, I'd wander around the store looking at stuff, engage you in a conversation, ask you for something that'd require you to turn around or bend over, so I could see if I could spot a concealed weapon, and get a quick glance at any visible security.

I'd come back a week or so later and buy a small item, engaging another clerk, and run the same routine, focusing on some details that caught my eye on the first pass.

(This would probably work better for me than most, as I'm white and look quite harmless, the cover not matching the book. ;))

Repeat once or twice more, looking for patterns, if any, that could be exploitable.

I'd likely take the bus, as a get-away car will be stolen for the job, and there's no need to bring my personal vehicle to the scene of a future crime...just in case, so there's no plates to copy down. :p

Then come back to do the job after several months have passed since my last interior visit. Still have video of me? I seriously doubt it, and it's even less likely you'd recognize me by physical dimensions alone, as there'd be not an inch of exposed skin.

You could make the place too difficult to get into quickly, thus preventing any blitzkrieg robbers from getting in. But go easy on it, 'cause you can make the place feel very unfriendly, driving away the honest customers.

Relying solely on firepower for defense is a lack of imagination.

What good would the gun do your family being held hostage by his crimey while you're at work? He could be standing in front of you, and what could you do to him that isn't going to result in your family getting killed?

threegun
November 2, 2006, 12:10 PM
NBK2000, If someone wants you dead bad enough you are dead. Likewise if someone wants to rob your store bad enough, it will happen. Their level of success will depend upon their intelligence, preparation, and execution. Considering that in over a decade of working here we have not been robbed, while other shops endure multiple robberies per year, I would say our prevention methods are pretty good. Still no business is robbery proof.....we understand this. Heck if I thought otherwise I wouldn't have posted asking for tips.

Bigfatts
November 2, 2006, 04:18 PM
A wise teacher once told me "Prey behavior triggers a predatory reaction." From what it sounds like, you do very well at not appearing as easy prey. And that is the best deterrent. That is what bad guys look for, an easy mark. They don't want to tango with the guys that look prepared for them. If I was a crook and walked into a place to case it, I would be looking for cameras and sizing up the employees. If the employees are alert looking and aware of the customers and their actions, I am not going to take that lightly, I don't want to be identified. I see guns? Whoa, hold on. These guys might put up a fight. I think I'll go somewhere else. I want to have the greatest chance of success that I can. A visibly armed, alert presence is one of the best deterrents. Why do you think banks with visible security get robbed less than ones without? Because he's a highly trained security guard? Nope. Most of the time it's simply the armed presence. Maybe get one of those signs that says something like "Smile, you're on camera!" if you don't already have something of the like.

It is a terrible thing to say but your goal is to send these guys to someone else. Whether it is these specific guys, or your average badd'uns. If you remain alert, and look it, most likely you will continue without being robbed.

threegun
November 2, 2006, 06:37 PM
Bigfats, Dead on buddy. We don't have a sign but we do have a monitor that they can see part of what we can.

nbk2000
November 3, 2006, 03:17 AM
You may not be getting robbed simply because you're not worth robbing, compared to your competitors?

Also, if your competitors get tired of getting robbed and close up, where does that leave you?

No matter how well prepared you are, if you're the only meat at the watering hole, there's always something in the bushes hungry enough to try and take you down.

Even if you don't get taken down, you can still be wounded, and wounded could mean literally, mental, or financially.

The longer it doesn't happen, the greater the likelyhood it will, so you may already be overdue. More than a decade without one could suggest to someone that you've become fat with profit and are ripe for plucking.

Good thing you asked for advice now.

KingofAttendance
November 3, 2006, 10:42 AM
Have your AR or shotty closeby, and if you see both of them come in together then go for it immediately. Better safe than sorry

threegun
November 3, 2006, 03:29 PM
NBK2000, "ripe for the plucking" LOL. Now picture an orchard of those trees or vines you are about to pluck. One tree/vine has several deadly snakes on it. The fruit is the same on all the trees and only the deadly snakes differentiate the one tree from the others. Yes our fruit is ripe, has been since day one over 25 years ago. Our tree however has always had deadly snakes in it and our fruit is left alone.

I started here about 14 years ago part time then full time. No robberies or attempts..........a few burglaries but no robberies.

festergrump
November 3, 2006, 04:56 PM
...a decade of being the only store in Tampa open 24 hours is pretty hard to ignore...
...a few burglaries but no robberies.
Pardon me for noticing, but those must have been some hard-core criminals to burglarize a shop that's open 24 hours a day, especially when the employees have always been so well armed. Were they ever caught?

nbk2000
November 8, 2006, 07:47 PM
Well, Festergrump, that's one way to kill a thread. ;) :D

threegun
November 9, 2006, 03:51 PM
Fester,

Pardon me for noticing, but those must have been some hard-core criminals to burglarize a shop that's open 24 hours a day, especially when the employees have always been so well armed. Were they ever caught?

Can someone say SARCASM LOL? We had one shop open 24hrs for a period of about 10 years. It was closed on Sunday however. We have another shop that closed at midnight for a couple of years before going to 10pm and now 9pm. I can remember 5 or 6 burglaries and only one the infamous "spiderman" or "roof top bandit" was eventually caught.