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Doug.38PR
September 27, 2006, 12:16 AM
Suppose you pull into your driveway one night and up to or into your garage and stop. You turn your car off and suddenly, down the driveway you see a car pulling with it's lights off. What is your next move? Grab your gun, roll out of the car and take cover? Dash for the house to unlock the door to call the police? Whip out your cellphone and call the police?

You have only seconds and each one you wait lets them and/or their car get closer (giving these possible attackers the advantage).

At night it seems obvious the man or men in the car are up to no good as they are entering the driveway steathfully and quickly at night. Should you openfire on an unknown or turn the domelights on to let them see you have a gun (exposing yourself)?
But then it could be a couple of highschool/college jerks playing a joke on someone.
Of course this is one of those things that you just have to meet it when you come to it.

Thoughts, comments?

Oregongundude
September 27, 2006, 12:53 AM
Personally, if it's in my yard I wouldn't be very inclined to hold back on showing them if they are here for trouble that's what there going to get. I would load up my 12 gauge shootgun with buck shot and in the back of my pants I would have my .45 acp, 40 S&W, or my glock 9 mm loaded up with some nasty rounds. I think if someone is brave enough to show up on my porch there here for no good. If I'm out and about I would be more careful, but not in at my house. I believe that they should see what kind of trouble there going to be exposed to if there here to cause trouble. Kill, or be killed protect your family and your life at all expenses. If there come to my house they will be in for some serious firepower, no question about it.

Doug.38PR
September 27, 2006, 01:05 AM
right,
but in the case above, you are still in or getting out of your car when the other car pulls up. Do you keep your 12 gauge in your car with you?

Blackwater OPS
September 27, 2006, 01:34 AM
I'm as paranoid as anyone and I think it would be CRAZY to shoot at a car just for pulling into your driveway, lights on or not. Maybe they were just turning around and did not want to shine headlights into your house? It could be any number of things you don't want to kill them for.

Should you openfire on an unknown or turn the domelights on to let them see you have a gun (exposing yourself)?

Both REALLY bad ideas.

I would not even draw, but I would go into a very high state of alert while observing them closely and heading toward my house(cover/more firepower/back-up). Obviously if you see something further you can react to that, but otherwise I would just head inside. Then again the layout of my home/driveway allows me to do this without really leaving cover, if you would be badly exposed heading to your front door you might as well wait at your car to see what they want, and keep it between you and them.

chrisandclauida2
September 27, 2006, 02:55 AM
if someone follows me home i instantly think car jacking burglary or other heinous crime and respond in kind.

following someone to their house or driveway is asking for it. while i am sure there can be a reasonable excuse for this i will respond as if im cornered and have my family to protect

CDH
September 27, 2006, 05:25 AM
As in all scenario talk, there's never enough information to act on.

For what's given here, and I truly believed that I was being set up, I'd turn off my car but leave the key on and put the transmission in Reverse to light up the back up lights for when they pull in behind.
I'd get out of the car and walk to the front of my car for cover (with weapon still holstered) but be on an incredibly high state of alert.
What happens next isn't my call. It's all one moment at a time.

Just remember that the difference between a defensive shooting and an offensive shooting is a VERY fine line you don't want to cross. By nature, that put's you at a disadvantage, but that's the way it is, and that's why these scenario discussions never yield much help because no two scenarios are exactly alike.
A defensive situation, like life itself, is all "moment by moment".

Carter

springmom
September 27, 2006, 08:04 AM
If I were to draw, most likely I'd be pulling my gun on one of my son's friends. Woudn't that be a great thing /end sarcasm....:eek: Or one of my neighbor's (the Harris county constable) friends or family members (somehow I think Steven would be annoyed with me if I drew down on his sister) or one of our other neighbor's friends coming over for their weekly poker party in the garage....

We live in a neighborhood. People drive in here all the time. They park in front of our house at least once a week. I can't be drawing my gun every time somebody uses the street.

However, I'll play along. In the scenario (assuming they really did pull into my DRIVEWAY behind me) I'd open the garage door and then lock it behind me, go into my house through my laundry room, and go call the police. I could get into the garage and lock it up much quicker than I could get to the front door. (Our garage isn't on an electronic opener).

Springmom

PythonGuy
September 27, 2006, 08:24 AM
Doogie, I think its nap time now....:cool:

shield20
September 27, 2006, 09:05 AM
I can't see myself a) rolling out of my car gun in hand diving for cover, or b) dashing to the door, and definetly NOT c)opening fire (??!!!), or just d) whipping out my cell phone and calling the police, or e) sitting there like a dead duck with my dome light on while I flash my piece.

I think CDH has it (nice touch on the back-up lights), maybe grab the car flashlite too - exit car quickly, use it for cover, keep them in sight, and find out what the hell they want.

Wildalaska
September 27, 2006, 11:58 AM
I would just hit the clacker and set off the claymores I have scattered near the driveway, no properly armed patriot leaves his house without arming the claymores

WildinoneofhismoodsAlaska

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 12:34 PM
The more of your posts I read, WA, the less it seems like these are periodic "moods."

Lately I don't see you contributing anything but sarcastic remarks aimed at taking people down. Why is that?

If Doug wants to post scenarios that you (obviously) think are inane, why not just skip the thread?


-azurefly

Wildalaska
September 27, 2006, 12:48 PM
I guess my moods are the same as those who keep closing these threads...

I guess these endless scenarios are getting too endless...

Now here you are, its 6 am, your with your mother, 3 year old sister and your grandmother in a wheelchair. You are carrying your usual HK P7 strong side in a Bucheimer combat master rig, with a 642 in an ankle holster backup. Becasue you had to help your grandma get in and out of a whirlpool, you arent wearing your body armor..as you press the button for the wheelchair lift with your right hand lowering grandma to the ground, a Rottweiler snatches your little sister, and a masked man leaps on the roof of the van with a speart....the dog is savaging your sister, the spear is about to be tossed and if you let the button down, grandma hits the dirt...what do you do? Try for your backup with your left hand...or...etcetc ad nauseum, ad infinitum

I think I'll just blow off theis section for a while, despite the wealth of knowledge hidden somewhere

WildandapologiestothoseimayhaveoffendedAlaska

Nigelcorn
September 27, 2006, 12:49 PM
"Should you openfire on an unknown?" ????????
I seriously hope that was a joke, because if not it is possibly the worst idea I have heard on TFL. I guess if you want to spend some serious time in jail, it might work for you then.
I think I would just go in my house. Chances are that they aren't there to rob me. Like others have said, they are most likely there for somebody else on the street, or just some punk kids playing a joke (I did this many times when I was a teen....glad nobody opened fire on me then). That you noticed the car is great, I would just go in my house, lock the door and maybe leave the light off so you could see outside better and wait to see what they do. No need to start escalating things by showing/firing a weapon unprovoked.

azurefly
September 27, 2006, 12:51 PM
Well, it's no mystery to me why the threads get closed -- and I don't believe it's because there's no merit found in discussing the scenarios.

I think it's because there are those posters who feel they are so above the conjecture and speculation (and "paranoia") that they must denigrate anyone who feels like talking this stuff out.

Why can't people who don't want to discuss this stuff just remain clear of the threads?


-azurefly

springmom
September 27, 2006, 01:07 PM
That's a fair question, azurefly.

Interestingly nobody has tackled the question regarding a parking garage, which to my mind is one of the scariest places on the planet to walk alone. My comment about "it's a neighborhood" applies even more to a garage where an entire apartment complex full of people may park...but which, just because of that, is a dangerous place.

If someone pulls into a garage such as to block me into my car, I'm going to have that Ultra Carry out faster than you can say "boo". That's a grim scenario to contemplate. If it's just a matter of somebody who uses an adjoining parking spot just happened to get home the same time you did, then you use your common sense, let them get out first and walk ahead of you, keep alert, and go home.

I don't miss apartment complex parking garages AT ALL. :rolleyes:

Springmom

guntotin_fool
September 27, 2006, 01:49 PM
Well considering I have two kids in High school and cars are constantly pulling in and out of my drive way at all ours it seems dropping kids off, picking some one up,, or leaving cars here while they all car pool to some show, activity or concert, Me jumping out of the car and hammering it with a hail of gunfire would prolly get me the chair or what ever device my states decides to use.

This morning when I went to get in my truck, I had two sets of car keys laying on the seat as kids had driven to my house and parked behind me before riding to school with my kids, (we have limited parking passes at our school, so this happens a lot.) I had to move two other cars, one of which I have no idea whose it is, but then got my truck out and left for the office.

Now, If someone was following me, and I was paying attention, I usually am BTW but noticed that someone followed the same three or four turns as I did onto my street, I very well would have driven past the drive way and gone down to the parking lot of the church at then end of the street and done a U turn there, seeing what the car was doing behind me. My odds of having a better route to take off on from there drastically improve.

stephen426
September 27, 2006, 02:04 PM
While Doug's posts are usually off the deep end, this one does warrant a response and a real (for lack of a better word) "tactical" plan.

I work for a restaurant company and most of our business is cash based. One of our managers was followed home and robbed at gun point. Fortunately, she was not injured. She was told to crawl underneath the car and that she would be shot if the saw her come out from under the car. Some stupid mistakes on her part include wearing flashy jewelry to work (nice Rolex watch, necklaces, rings, bracelets), bringing the deposit home with her so she could go to the bank in the morning, and not being aware that she was being followed. Mind you it is hard to notice these things if the bad guys track you for a few days and are good at following discreetly.

I will share another incident that occurred recently:
My mother-in-law was recently followed home and robbed. She is also in the restaurant business. Fortunately, she was only slightly injured. As soon as she got out of the car, two guys came and shoved her down to the ground and took her purse and her money.

Here are the following lessons from their mistakes:

1. Always maintain situational awareness. This is hard to do though, especially after a long hard day at work. Even with good situational awareness, experienced bad guys can sometimes get the jump on you.

2. Don't make yourself more of a target by wearing flashy jewelry.

3. Leave the money in the safe in the restaurant where it is protected by insurance and alarms (if installed).

4. Try to never leave work by yourself if possible.

5. Call a family member and have them waiting for you.

6. If you are robbed at gun point, give it up and do not resist unless you strongly believe that you are going to be killed regardless. I know this is counter to what most people on this forum would think or do, but money can be replaced. Lives cannot. Even if you survive the incident, injuries may stay with you for the rest of your life. My wife's grand-uncle was paralyzed from the waist down after getting shot in the spine during a robbery.

7. Be a good witness.

8. Consider installing a CCTV system and flood lights at your residence. I will probably do this from my in-laws after that incident. They have a system at the restaurant, and I can almost guarantee that the bad guys watched them for a few days before hand.


So what would I do if a car pulled in behind me with the lights off at night? I would probably grab my gun and have it ready for action. Depending on how close the other car was to mine, I would try to make it to my door. If the car is right behind me, I would probably grab my Surefire with one hand and have the gun behind my leg with the other hand. I would shine the light into the car and ask them in a loud voice if I could help them with something. If they get out and approach, the gun will be pointing at them in a split second, especially if there is more than one of them. If it appears that they have a weapon, I will open fire without hesitation. This may be a bit extreme for some, but I work in a mostly cash business and I live in Miami where crime rates are relatively high.

I can tell you that most people will not be able to follow me home though since I drive like a mad man. I live in a gated community and there is usually very little traffic for them to hide behind. I make an extra trip around the block when I have cars turn in behind me. I park my car in the garage (backed in) so it is hard for people to sneak in behind me. I have motion sensing flood lights over the garage and no convenient hiding places near the garage. Hopefully my few ounces of prevention will prevent the need for a few pounds of cure.

P.S. Opening fire on the unknown is a very bad idea and clearly violates one of the four gun safety rules of identifying your target. Other than that comment, this post has validity.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 27, 2006, 02:43 PM
Whether or not, we have too many scenarios that are wacky, several trainers like Insights and OPS do present tactics for car problems.

Has Doug ever trained (at all :D ) but for getting out of a car, shooting from a car, moving the car in an emergency. Doug - a lot of the things you post are covered in quality classes.

Such things as this post, have happened. The serious student of the art might try to get some training in these techniques.

I suggest such if you can get the chance.

A nuance - let's say you are next door and taking out the garbage and you see this happen to the neighbor - do you shoot them?

The left side neighbor - my, my - time to go to bed. Right side neighbor - think out helping. Starting with observation rather than gunfire. :eek:

springmom
September 27, 2006, 03:40 PM
This morning when I went to get in my truck, I had two sets of car keys laying on the seat as kids had driven to my house and parked behind me before riding to school with my kids, (we have limited parking passes at our school, so this happens a lot.) I had to move two other cars, one of which I have no idea whose it is, but then got my truck out and left for the office.



Yup. When Youngest Son was still in high school we had more of this than we do now, but especially on weekends, our street can get right crowded between his buddies, the next door neighbor's friends, the across-the-street-constable's family, and the poker party of the family next to the constable.

Glenn, not all of us can do formal training in self defense. It'd be great, but we can't. It's an intelligent thing to think this stuff through, and given that this scenario could have been culled from the headlines of the Houston Chronicle for the last couple of years (especially Fort Bend County) it's worth thinking through. My $.02, FWIW.

Springmom

Glenn E. Meyer
September 27, 2006, 05:33 PM
My two cents is that a fair amount of discussion is great but training is really a good idea. One can get a weekend for $350 in TX. If one owns more than one gun, the price of that other blaster would cover training and do one a world more good than simple range time or another gun.

Doug, in particular, posts scenario after scenario of things that a simple tactical course would probably cover.

If I were serious, I would save up the bucks and do it. Just my opinion but when I decided to carry, I decided I needed more than reading Guns and Ammo. With any skill, training and practice are useful.

I understand the expense issue but I would make the effort rather than post individual scenarios that can handled by knowing a general set of principles and practicing them. If you have a cool pistol you don't use, sell it and take a class. :D

Don P
September 27, 2006, 05:43 PM
+1 Glenn E. Meyer thank you.

Trip20
September 27, 2006, 05:47 PM
Should you openfire on an unknown...

That one is covered by one of the 4 rules, Doug. Know your target and beyond. You know that's not an option under any circumstance.

I do not have the training to be of any help to your questions, but my gut feeling is that a car is just a fancy coffin in this or any similar scenario.

If you can get out of the vehicle -- even if only to use the car as cover while you figure out what's going on -- that's probably your best bet. Your ability to be mobile and seek new cover should the need arise are severely limited by remaining in your vehicle.

If you have a garage door opener in the vehicle, there’s always the option of tapping the button a second time to close the door. If anything this might buy some time or at least complicate any would-be attack from an assailant’s perspective.

In the middle of both garage doors at my house, I have a floodlight on a motion sensor – pretty typical now-a-days. When I pull up the driveway and near the garage door openings, the lights come on and light up the drive pretty well on down to the street.

A precaution like this is a good measure for a more likely occurrence of someone on foot sneaking into your garage just after you pull in. Bright lights have a tendency to dissuade criminal behavior.

tony pasley
September 27, 2006, 08:41 PM
Well if some one is willing to follow me home they really have to be stupid. I live .9 miles up a dirt mountian road only 1 house on up the mountian beyond me. Now some one pull in behind me in my drive with lights off then yea thier in trouble. They have found it..
I live back away from people where I can shoot in my frontyard I have targets set up and are clearly seen from the drive. Lost people turn around before they get this far up the mountian. The road is rough to discourage people from coming up. I have taken all precautions with motion lights. Wireless motion alerts down the road and cameras.

The Canuck
September 27, 2006, 09:01 PM
I would move to the back of the car as if headed for the door (I back my car into the drive/stall, old Army habit), then turn when I had the opportunity of cover, all the while observing the area (NEVER FIXATE) and the car as it approaches. If it stops and people start getting out, I would ask them if they needed help in the VOC. If they started getting aggressive/shooty I would use the car for cover and hold them off with my pistol while I called 911 on the cell. Never open fire on a hunch, EVAR(sic). You'll end up in jail with your vicitim's friends if you do.

Simple is often the best method, pros use it all the time 'cause it works.

Dwight55
September 27, 2006, 09:34 PM
Doug, . . . how did you get yourself into this situation? Ya just gotta be a bit more observant, . . . they were following you for some distance, . . . and you didn't catch on. Baaaaaaaaaaaad boy!!!!

Step 2, . . . Canuck's advice is good stuff, . . . get in that habit all the time. It makes it easier to get groceries out, . . . suitcases in, . . . and if you have to leave in a hurry, . . . you can see where you are driving, . . . not where you are backing. Also, . . . hit the down button for the door opener as soon as you can do it.

Step 3, . . . if they followed you home, . . . they already know there is only one of you, . . . and you cannot hide in that car. Exit the car and go behind it to the door or behind the other car if there is one. Either way, . . . get into the house if you can.

Call 911 and remember if you have to, . . . just leave the phone dangling, . . . 911 knows who has the other end of the phone, . . . just holler for em to send the cops, . . . go get that 870 and get ready for whatever comes next.

No, . . . I wouldn't turn on any lights except the outside lights, . . .

At my hacienda, . . . with a 600 ft driveway, . . . I can circle the house and almost come out head to head with them, . . . and be in a seriously advantageous position, . . . but not everyone else has a place so configured.

May God bless,
Dwight

enikkor
September 27, 2006, 09:42 PM
I would close the garage door from my car and ran quickly inside the house.
I will lock the door behind me and observe. If the car does not move back I may call 911 and prepare with pistol at hand. If somebody try to get inside
the house, I think you are entitled to use force. I think for you to shoot,
there has to be immediate danger to yourself. If they try to open the garage
door and rob my car, that it fine with me since I have already called 911
and they are not going to be far. I will only shoot when I can identify the
person, and they are going in to hurt.

KD5NRH
September 28, 2006, 02:05 AM
Well, let's see - it's a 250+yd gravel driveway, and nobody's going to keep up with me on it if they're blacked out, so I've got a bit of time; call SWMBO, and have her waiting with a 12ga in hand, and let her call the Sheriff while I cut the lights and bail for the trees where they'll have to pass close enough for me to get a good look. It also means that if they get out, they're flanked by two unseen combatants - one in the dark with a pistol and Surefire, and one in the house with artillery and control of some nice bright lights. I feel safe in waiting for their next move at that point.

If we really want them scared, the landlord lives next door, and will respond quite loudly to somebody sneaking that close to his barn.

Nigelcorn
September 28, 2006, 03:26 PM
AzureFly, I understand what you are saying about detracting from the post instead of benefitting it, but I don't feel that either WA or myself did that, as you said. I said that I thought that firing on another car just for pulling in behind you was a bad idea, which it un-arguably is. I then said what I would do in that situation. I may be fairly new at this, but it seems to me that Doug asked for an opinion on what others would do in this situation. I am perfectly justified in saying what I would do, including saying that at least one of his suggestions was something that is not wise (or legal) to do. If you don't agree with somebody's opinion, maybe you should post one of your own instead of just insulting those that do post their opinion (even if their opinion is "sarcastic").