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Lionken07
September 20, 2006, 04:20 AM
let say your fishing alone and someone comes over with a gun pointing at your head and ask you to give him his wallet do you...


and explain


Now...I might draw and fire first but then I really don't know how I will react if it really happens...I have heard too many stories about people that complied with the thug and getting killed at the end...

tanksoldier
September 20, 2006, 04:39 AM
Every situation is different, and the exact situation determines specific tactics.

However, generally speaking I would agree to hand over my wallet, while reaching for my gun instead.

threegun
September 20, 2006, 05:50 AM
Trying to draw against someone who is already pointing............you better be prepared to get shot. Every situation is different. If I feel that giving up the money will result in death anyway I'm gonna die fighting other wise I'll give it up and wait until opportunity knocks.

There are tactics that reduce your chances of being hit should you choose to fight back just ask Sweat'n'bullets.

ammo.crafter
September 20, 2006, 06:24 AM
High Standard .22 mag derringer in a wallet holster! I'd give them that wallet.:)

erh
September 20, 2006, 06:32 AM
"I've participated in quite similar drill's maybe... 350 - 400 some times..!" Almost "Every Single Time..!;" The Bad Guy wins! I strongly encourage people NOT to try & "Out Draw" someone who "HAS ALREADY DRAWN..!" Logic is a great part of "Longevity" if you know what I mean..!"

Just my personal .02 worth...

E! :cool:

shield20
September 20, 2006, 06:58 AM
There are some disarming techniques that do work - even faster then he can pull the trigger if done right. That would be my 1st thought instead of trying to out-draw a drawn gun.

Quickdraw Limpsalot
September 20, 2006, 07:06 AM
*If* someone where able to get that close to me with a gun drawn without me noticing... they'd get my wallet. What little money I DO have is always replaceable.

Odd Job
September 20, 2006, 07:13 AM
If he has the drop on you already, I advise not to draw. We went through a few scenarios with the Flying Squad guys in JHB and basically here is what I would do if I was carrying concealed IWB as usual:

1) I'd reach for my wallet with my left hand, and try to grab my keys at the same time.
2) Withdraw my left hand from my pocket, holding the wallet and the keys.
3) While reaching out to hand them over, I would drop the keys. If his gaze follows the keys, I would throw the wallet at his feet, step sideways and draw. It is still a big risk necause if there is a fumble, I have lost.
4) If his gaze does not follow the keys, I would be a good boy and hand the wallet over nicely. At that point I would know that this dude has the drop on me good and proper and I wouldn't try anything cute with him.

I must add that this only applies if I was in SA. There you have a significant chance of being shot even if you hand it over. Elsewhere I would probably just hand it over.

kymasabe
September 20, 2006, 07:45 AM
Would a little mis-direction work? Accidently drop the wallet while handing it over while simultaneously drawing your weapon. I hear more and more of people getting killed at the end of the robbery even if they do comply so my feeling is, if I'm gonna get killed, to do so fighting back.

bdcochran
September 20, 2006, 08:07 AM
I know of two situations in which this occurred to acquaintances.

In the first situation, my friend (we go shooting together) was a jewelry salesman delivery guy. He came to a red light and stopped. The BG leaned in the window from the passenger side with a Browning designed .45acp pointing at my friend and demanded the jewels. The BG died of a .38 special round.

In situation two, a lawyer trained to shoot by K. Turnipseed (quickshoot.com and turnipseedtechnique.com) was at a gasoline station refilling his car when the BG walked up and held a gun on him. The lawyer drew from concealed and killed the BG on the spot. Incidentally, the fastest that I saw on a draw from concealed on the whistle to shooting dead center was .3 second.

I don't recommend what my acquaintances did. However, I don't criticize their responses. You play your situation according to your perceptions.:rolleyes:

Lurper
September 20, 2006, 08:59 AM
If you have reached a certain level of proficiency, you can outdraw someone who has a gun on you easily. We have put on several demonstrations of this.
Most people take .25 seconds or more to respond to a stimulus whether it is a visual or audible cue. The fact that he didn't walk up, shoot you and take your wallet indicates that the BG is expecting you to comply. It will take time for him to realize that 1. you are not complying 2. you are not fleeing but are drawing a weapon. By the time he assesses the threat usually more than .5 seconds have passed. Add another .1 or .2 for them to decide whether to shoot or not. If you add a distraction, side step or slap their gun you have even more time. With a reasonable amount of proper training and practice, most people could hit a target at close range in under .6 or .7 seconds. The problem is that most people don't reach that level.

Syntax360
September 20, 2006, 09:09 AM
If there is already a gun drawn, I'm most likely handing over the cash, ESPECIALLY if I'm with a lady friend. No reason to go and get shot over the small amount of $ I carry. However, if I'm alone, I can't really say. It all depends on the situation. I voted to hand over the cash because that is likely to happen anyway, even if the BG isn't able to leave with it.

Savage10FP308
September 20, 2006, 09:23 AM
Some of you guys aren't too bright are you? You stated the armed robber already has a gun pointed at your head. Let me think... my life or die and save a hundred bucks or so? That's a really hard decision and all but I think I would hand over the cash! Some of you guys need to get real.

Lionken07
September 20, 2006, 09:49 AM
what if he takes your wallet and then decide to give you one in the head? Its not just about your wallet in situation like this. I don't know about you but I will never let myself die without a fight...:D

a distraction might work since it just might buy you enough time to drop and fire away.

pax
September 20, 2006, 09:56 AM
As a woman, I can never assume that all the bad guy wants is a wallet. It could be he is looking for a compliant female victim to rape and/or murder. So my tactics are based upon that knowledge.

My money isn't worth risking my own life or taking his over. So I might grab my wallet out of my pocket or purse and throw it to the side of the bad guy, giving him a distraction and a chance to save his own life by grabbing the money and leaving (I'd beat feet ASAP if he headed for the cash). This would make it immediately obvious which crime the BG intended to commit today. If he didn't go for the cash, I'd use the distraction to do a disarm or to draw.

I learned some basic disarms which I would be willing to try if I thought I was about to be raped or killed, provided the BG was within arm's reach. Since it is impossible to rape a woman without getting within arm's reach, I've maybe got more likelihood of having an opportunity to use these disarming moves than a similarly trained man might. Wouldn't try for a disarm unless I suspected I'd soon be dead if I didn't.

Wouldn't draw against a drawn gun unless I thought he was going to pull the trigger on me in any case. If it's like that, I'd have nothing to lose. There's really a poor likelihood of success in such cases, so if I had to fight against such odds, I'd try for a disarm by preference, and only try to draw against a drawn gun if a disarm were plainly not possible.

My line in the sand: the BG can have my money, but I will not die on my knees. If I die, I'll die fighting back.

pax

armabill
September 20, 2006, 10:12 AM
If he has his gun to your head, then he already has the drop on you.

Anything but what he wants will surely result in him firing. Now what he'll do after the money is turned over- who knows.

I'd take the money and toss it making him go retrieve it giving me a chance to act accordingly.

Of course, all this is supposition and guessing.

PaulBk
September 20, 2006, 12:52 PM
1-Act scared (shouldn't be too hard with a gun to my head) :eek:
2-Remove wallet from pocket
3-Throw wallet on ground near BG
4-Run for cover/draw from concealment
5-Clean drawers ;)

-PB

Blackwater OPS
September 20, 2006, 12:57 PM
Situational awareness is why this should not have even happened. Since it did, I would try to move out of the line of fire and disarm him with my pocket folder.

DanV1317
September 20, 2006, 01:08 PM
If he has the gun pointed directly at you, it may depend on how close he is to you. If he is right up on you, and is already directing you to get your wallet to give to him, this gives you permission to move. Your movement should probably be to try to grab his gun hand because most likely somebody like that has only one hand on the gun.

That being said, i'd probably reach for my wallet and possibly try to grab my gun in stead since my gun rides right above my wallet. when pulling my wallet out of my pocket, i could just pull up and the gun would already be in my hand.

The real problem would be turning and getting a shot off before him. You might be better off getting in to a hand to hand type thing after grabbing his gun hand.

You'd have to just see how it goes.

OBIWAN
September 20, 2006, 01:18 PM
Lurper points out correctly that you might get to shoot first

What many are forgetting is that this is not an old western where the quickest draw wins.

You can shoot first and still lose

There are WAAAAYYYY too many variables that could tip the scales one way or the other

But if fighting back IS the right choice, then simply defaulting to your handgun is not going to always be the best course

Preventing them from shooting you is the most important

And there was some good advice given on that.....including not getting in that position, as well as the Nike Defense

tlm225
September 20, 2006, 08:31 PM
Another "depenzon" situation. If my crystal ball tells me he just wants the money, he gets it. I may take action as he attempts to leave after the gun is no longer pointing at me. If I think he's going to kill me anyway, I'm going down fighting.

Put yourself in the robbers position. How likely is it that someone could draw and take you out before you move your finger 1/2"?

Jason607
September 20, 2006, 08:32 PM
Give him the wallet, or maby drop it on the ground, when he goes for it, or starts to run away after taking the money, then you draw the gun and let him have it.

thebaldguy
September 20, 2006, 08:39 PM
I would throw the wallet, and use that as a chance to escape. I would let the wallet distract him first, and use the opportunity to try and draw and shoot.

Earlier this year, a man was killed in Minneapolis after the victims gave up their items. They gave up their possessions, and a mugger still took a life. Throw your items to distract, and escape, draw, and shoot.

kozak6
September 20, 2006, 08:45 PM
let say your fishing alone and someone comes over with a gun pointing at your head and ask you to give him his wallet do you...


I would do my best to give him his wallet. Not sure what I'd be doing with it, but you bet I'd give it back.

Bigfatts
September 20, 2006, 08:52 PM
If he is within reach and looks like your everyday typical cracked out tweeker and not your hardened criminal, they might be distracted should you fumble the wallet. At which point I would grab their gunhand with my left hand at the wrist (should they be right handed). I would not wrestle them for the gun. I would keep their gunhand from pointing in my direction while delivering a hard strike to the throat with my right hand. Then I reach for my gun. This would have to be done swiftly/decisively with no hesitation. However I do not think my weapon will be necessary at this point, because if I am in this type of situation, (and haven't gotten myself shot yet) I will most likely issue a strike of sufficient force to end the confrontation.

The one thing you have to keep in mind is that if you are being seriously hassled for your wallet by a guy with a gun, you have to look think that this is most likely not his first time. He may not lose focus in case of a fumbled wallet. He may have robbed enough people to know when to be cautious. Then again he may just be your average cracked out tweeker looking to finance his next high.

atlctyslkr
September 20, 2006, 09:12 PM
Give the dirtbag the wallet. When he turns his back and starts to leave yell "Hey". When he turns around fire. As long as you don't hit him in the back you're fine. Side shot is okay. It's instinct to respond to "Hey", don't belive me? Try it in a random place sometime.

I know some people are going to flame me for this but I am pretty confident there are plenty of you on here who thought the same thing just didn't post it.

JJB2
September 20, 2006, 09:15 PM
tell em to take it easy i'm going to reach in pocket
reach in my pocket and hand him the $.72 i have in there........................

9mmsnoopy
September 20, 2006, 09:30 PM
Sure thing buddy, you can have my wallet, just let me reach in my pocket, oops, its not a wallet but a kahr pm9 for ya.

If i didnt feel like i had a good opportunity to drop him, i would give him the wallet and hope he doesnt shoot me. Then when he turns to leave im going to put a couple of corbons right in his back.

JohnKSa
September 20, 2006, 09:52 PM
Every situation is different, and the exact situation determines specific tactics.Yes.Trying to draw against someone who is already pointing............you better be prepared to get shot.Also yes!

The problem, as demonstrated by a story posted not long ago on this forum, is that even if you comply you may still be shot.

There is no right answer for a scenario this general, and it's important to understand that the right answer in a specific scenario may STILL end with you injured and FURTHER that compliance is no guarantee of safety.

rem33
September 20, 2006, 10:37 PM
My first thought is " nothing material I own much less anything in my pocket is worth dieing or even being shot for". But, be careful as you leave because, you are not in a safe area.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 06:59 AM
The original poster said, to the effect, "Let's say you're fishing alone and someone comes over with a gun pointing at your head and asks you to give him your wallet......

This very issue was being discussed on another thread, now locked. It's amazing because on that thread, posters insist upon putting up a fight. Even with a gun pointed directly at them.

That's not strategy. That's suicide.

Odd Job said,
If he has the drop on you already, I advise not to draw. We went through a few scenarios with the Flying Squad guys in JHB and basically here is what I would do if I was carrying concealed IWB as usual:

1) I'd reach for my wallet with my left hand, and try to grab my keys at the same time.
2) Withdraw my left hand from my pocket, holding the wallet and the keys.
3) While reaching out to hand them over, I would drop the keys. If his gaze follows the keys, I would throw the wallet at his feet, step sideways and draw. It is still a big risk necause if there is a fumble, I have lost.
4) If his gaze does not follow the keys, I would be a good boy and hand the wallet over nicely. At that point I would know that this dude has the drop on me good and proper and I wouldn't try anything cute with him.

I must add that this only applies if I was in SA. There you have a significant chance of being shot even if you hand it over. Elsewhere I would probably just hand it over.


I don't know what SA is. But it sounds like his comments presuppose considerable training. 99.9% of the gun carrying public will never pursue such training. So for that majority, we have no choice but to give up the wallet. Remember, the gun is pointing at your head. Don't be stupid.

bdchochran referenced two real-world instances where good guys managed to kill the bad guys. However, at least one of the good guys had apparently had significant training. bdchochran concluded, I don't recommend what my acquaintances did.
An astute observation.

Lurper said, If you have reached a certain level of proficiency, you can outdraw someone who has a gun on you easily. We have put on several demonstrations of this.
Most people take .25 seconds or more to respond to a stimulus whether it is a visual or audible cue. The fact that he didn't walk up, shoot you and take your wallet indicates that the BG is expecting you to comply. It will take time for him to realize that 1. you are not complying 2. you are not fleeing but are drawing a weapon. By the time he assesses the threat usually more than .5 seconds have passed. Add another .1 or .2 for them to decide whether to shoot or not. If you add a distraction, side step or slap their gun you have even more time. With a reasonable amount of proper training and practice, most people could hit a target at close range in under .6 or .7 seconds. The problem is that most people don't reach that level.

Now, that is extremely valuable information. It's even scientific. It underscores the fact that unless you're trained for the eventuality, you're going to hand over the wallet.

Savage10FP308 said, Wow!!!

Some of you guys aren't too bright are you? You stated the armed robber already has a gun pointed at your head. Let me think... my life or die and save a hundred bucks or so? That's a really hard decision and all but I think I would hand over the cash! Some of you guys need to get real.


That's one of the most germane responses I've seen. Because what has yet to be mentioned on this thread is the role fear is going to play. When this scenario becomes reality, unless you have had and are continuing training in self-defense, you are going to be so afraid that you'll be lucky to be able to move. It's called panic, and only extensive training can condition your mind to react even though you're paralyzed with fear.

PaulBk said,
1-Act scared (shouldn't be too hard with a gun to my head)
2-Remove wallet from pocket
3-Throw wallet on ground near BG
4-Run for cover/draw from concealment
5-Clean drawers

That's realistic.

PythonGuy
September 21, 2006, 07:15 AM
PinnedAndRecessed I am 100% with you on this. If anyone is silly enough to believe they can outdraw a guy with a gun already pointed at them they are seriously mistaken. You have to always wait for the right opportunity to strike if that is what you plan to do, don't fool yourself into thinking you can react at super speed and outdraw an already drawn weapon, that only happens in the movies. Each situation has to be decided on as it unfolds, but you'd be committing suicide by BG if you take the outdraw route, one little snag of the gun to hang you up means getting shot. I read with much laughter one poster on here trying to explain how he can outdraw the BG before he can pull the trigger, only if you are from planet Krypton buddy. :D

Mikeyboy
September 21, 2006, 08:25 AM
First regardless of so-called situational awareness it can happen to anybody. You cannot be on 24/7 and not all BG look and dress like they do in the movies. Also robberies and mugging are not always like they are in the movies. The lone armed robber standing 3 feet away sticking a gun in your face and saying, “Give me your wallet” is still a possibility, but you can have a guy start off with a pistol whip to the back of your head and close the distance and put his hand in your pocket for you, or even worse multiple BGs beating on you and taking your stuff while a guy is pointing a gun at you.

I guess it depends with me, how may BGs are involved, am I alone or is my family with me, Is this happening public, and does the guy give you the impression that he is going to just take the money and run. If a BG points a gun at my head while I'm alone and about ready to get in my car, and says, "Give me the keys!" I give him the keys, run away and find cover and draw my weapon. Why take the chance of dying for a vehicle, that is what insurance is for. If that same BG has a gun pointed at my head and says, get in the car...now that changes things.

I'm guessing you got a 60% chance of getting shot with a BG pointing a gun and you drawing your weapon. That is based on a 70/30 chance minus 10% that the BGs gun is not real or not loaded. Other factors may increase your success like speed your draw, if you able to distract him first, or what and where you carry. The problem with traditional carrying methods is just that, they are traditional and known even to the BG. No matter how fast you are, once you reach around your back or even worse reaching for your ankle holster, it is going to send off red flags to the BG holding the gun. I feel pocket carry is good for this situation, but in some cases you compromise caliber size. This is one of those times you really need a one-shot-stop.

I seen seminar given by a cop (it was on PBS, I forget his name but the guy was from Boston) regarding crime prevention and he gave that stat that for those victims who just ran away from an armed robbery where a BG had a real handgun pointed at them. Only 12% where actually struck by a bullet, and an even smaller percentage actually receive a fatal wound.

If you can run away, my advice is to try. Having distance and cover will be to your advantage. If you can't get away its a toss up. If you feel it’s a simple robbery and no one will get hurt then comply but be careful, watch everything, and still be ready to draw. If you think it is something more that a simply robbery, then draw and hope for the best. Simply handing over your money on every robbery now a days does not mean you will not get shot anyway. Simply drawing your weapon every time, does not guarantee you will always come out on top.

Trip20
September 21, 2006, 08:26 AM
PAR -- The Point is being sorely missed.

The issue simply is whether or not you want to die fighting for your life, or die because you relied on the good will of a bad guy.

In either case one is taking chances and betting on odds. The need to gamble with your own life is forced upon you by another person.

As you've claim to have been held up twice and complied/submitted both times, it makes sense that you'll defend that tactic with great vigor. The psychology involved with such an encounter would shed some light on your position but that's another monster all together.

However, just because it turned out OK for you does not mean it's the best tactic, or the tactic that everyone should use. It's an accurate statement to say it only turned out OK by chance. You did nothing to ensure your survival but comply and hope.

Some do not like the idea of hoping another person chooses to let them live. Some of us would rather be in control of that destiny. That does not mean we should all always draw and fire - defense of our lives and resistance in general does not always include a firearm and quick-draw as seen in old westerns.

This special training you feel is a prerequisite to resistance -- it's called the will to live and was given to us free, by our creator.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 08:57 AM
I this situation I would figure I'm dead anyway. I might as well act. Likely in that situation he'd not bother asking for your wallet, he'd just cap you and take it. This post shows the fact that if you are an expert shot and have not trained in USD you are dismally undertrained.

The question is, can you get outside his line of power faster than he can fire? Sometimes you can. Do you have the presence of mind to see the condition of the weapon? Hard to say in a real situation. If it's a DA type gun and the hammer is down you might have some small chance to act. If it's in SA mode you are likely &^%$*%.

In training I can beat the hammer about 60% of the time. In a real situation I figure that would drop by half. Drawing your weapon in this situation is not an option. You need to put him on the ground and have control of his gun hand. That is likely to involve some form of an arm bar takedown. A stunning action should be used. One of my favorites is to sweep to the inside while pushing his arm out, then driving my forehead into his face. Then rolling under his arm, that I have control of, and dropping him in an arm bar. The other favorite is to make the same motion, but drive my knee into the outside of his upper leg, followed by a brutal chin shot, then under the arm for an arm bar. Having used these methods in live situations (not involving a gun) I can tell you they are devestating.
I'm surprized by the number of people who can shoot someone in self defence, but hesitate in using physical force or an edged weapon. In this situation you must be completely brutal and willing to kill him with your bare hands. If I were to draw a weapon it would likely be my blade, which I carry on my right hip. I can't get to the gun which is in the small of my back. I'm taking throat with a stab, temple with a stab or cartoid with a stab or slice.

This is my blade:
http://www.midwestgunexchange.com/pictures/bh15kl00bk.jpg

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 09:00 AM
You did nothing to ensure your survival but comply and hope.


Well, duh. I was unarmed. I referenced the events merely to demonstrate that (mostly) the bad guys are pumped. They're twitchy. They're nervous. Cocked, locked, and ready to rock.

However, if you are armed, and if you want to try to outdraw the BG's trigger finger, be my guest.

But unless you've had, and continue to have, extensive training in this regard, I guarantee you'll turn over the wallet. Or you will die trying something foolish.

BTW, you forgot something.

The issue simply is whether or not you want to die fighting for your life, or die because you relied on the good will of a bad guy.


Those are not the only possibilities.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 09:09 AM
GarryC has some very astute observations. So for the purpose of clarity we really need to break this dialogue (dialogue is ok, isn't it? Because I'm discovering that many want monologue) into two subgroups, viz., a) for the trained and b) for the untrained.

The untrained represent the vast majority of gunowners. (Note: we'll also include in this group people who have received only nominal training.) Their mind will freeze in panic in crisis. I know we cannot imagine this while we're sitting in the safety of our office, but fear paralyzes.

The second category, the extensively trained, have ingrained into their brain what to do in every conceivable scenario. This they do by repetitious drills. This would include, but certainly not limited to, such groups as SWAT or Navy Seals, to cite extreme examples. Their training is such that when crises arise, their training overrides their fear. This mentality goes into "automatic overdrive."

For group a), compliance in the original scenario is the only option, as most posters seem to realize. Resistance is futile and suicidal.

For group b), please email me your names because you're the guys I want to hang with when I've got to be in the wrong side of town.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 09:25 AM
The second category, the extensively trained, have ingrained into their brain what to do in every conceivable scenario. This they do by repetitious drills. This would include, but certainly not limited to, such groups as SWAT or Navy Seals, to cite extreme examples. Their training is such that when crises arise, their training overrides their fear. This mentality goes into "automatic overdrive."

I think my 14 years as a corrections officer places me in this catagory. I'm at a higher level of alertness and observing people as a matter of habit. My wife finds this irritating, like when I look at everyone who closes into a certain distance of us or when I look at each person in a resteraunt in a threat evaluation.

invention_45
September 21, 2006, 09:36 AM
This isn't a cookie-cutter situation, so I picked "don't know what to do".

You could try anything from suddenly moving out of his line of fire (you have about 0.25 seconds to do this) and then running and/or drawing-firing, all of which could easily fail and kill you, to passively letting him have your belongings, which could also easily fail and kill you, since not all robberies are about money.

If the guy is visibly drunk or drugged, that will mess with his perception, and that could cut both ways. You might get an extra .25 seconds or more out of that situation if you are lucky and see an opportunity like his momentary inattention. But it might also amplify some innocent motion you make into a threat that makes him shoot you.

The more trained you are the better, but you'll have to (and you will) use all the brainpower you have (which is a lot) to stay alive through an armed robbery.

Of course, it's a good idea to try to know in advance the circumstances under which you risk being subjected to this sort of treatment and to avoid them whenever possible.

tydephan
September 21, 2006, 09:41 AM
It sounds like to me you are taking the stance that there is no such thing as a basic survival instinct? That fear always, absolutely, overrides.

I don't know how humanity has evolved if this is the case. But that may just be twisting the argument again. :confused:

03Shadowbob
September 21, 2006, 09:51 AM
well, since I don't carry a wallet, I would reach in my front pocket and grab my cash which is just folded together and drop it. More than likely the bills will come apart and float to the ground seperately drawing his eyes to that. At that point, I would have to decide what I would do. If he watches the cash float down then a gun battle would insue. If he keeps his eyes on me then that tells me something else about his resolve and determination to not be distracted which would call for other measures.

dawg23
September 21, 2006, 10:02 AM
Incidentally, the fastest that I saw on a draw from concealed on the whistle to shooting dead center was .3 second.


Considering that most people's reaction time is around .3 seconds, I have to say that you have somehow been fortunate enough to witness something that no one else has ever seen.

With an electronic timer (not the old mechanical wheel timers) drawing from concealment in .3 seconds is highly unlikely.

Trip20
September 21, 2006, 11:12 AM
Well, duh. I was unarmed. I referenced the events merely to...

It doesn't matter why you referenced the events. This is non sequitur. Even if you were armed you'd still comply/submit because, according to you , to do otherwise would just ensure one would "die trying something foolish."

You do not have nor continue to have the "extensive training" needed to fight back - your prerequisite to doing anything other than being a good victim.

So if you want to address my point this time, I'll make it again:

My point was you are comfortable relying on the good will of a bad person - something that is easily defined as naive.

Can you please justify this tactic?

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 11:16 AM
But that may just be twising the argument again.

You're not "twising [sic] the argument." You're forgetting the parameters of the discussion, viz., the original poster's stipulations. The bad guy has a gun pointed at ...... your..... head.

If you train extensively as garryc apparantly does, then maybe you can win.

But for the 99.9% of gun owners (the marginally trained/untrained), resistance under that circumstance would be disastrous. If you didn't panic and freeze, you'd be shaking so badly that you'd telegraph your intentions to the bad guy (who, we might note, has probably had much more experience in such situations than you).

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 11:29 AM
Of course it's not a non sequitur.

You referenced my experience. Remember?

As you've claim to have been held up twice and complied/submitted both times


You brought that into the discussion. I responded to your point.

Well, duh. I was unarmed.


Non sequitur? LOL!

Then you said,
Even if you were armed you'd still comply/submit because, according to you , to do otherwise would just ensure one would "die trying something foolish."


Try to keep up. We're talking about the original poster's hypothetical scenario. Again, there is a ..... gun ...... pointed ....... at ......... your.......head!

Unless you have been trained otherwise, you escalate the danger by resisting since (in that circumstance) you won't know what you're doing. That's the effect of fear. That's a variable that cannot be adequately measured in the comfort of cyberspace.

Unless you've trained extensively, there's no way you can draw faster than he can, and will, pull the trigger.

Trip20
September 21, 2006, 12:03 PM
Again, you didn't address my point.

Try to keep up. We're talking about the original poster's hypothetical scenario. Again, there is a ..... gun ...... pointed ....... at ......... your.......head!

Where the weapon is pointed does not matter. But you knew that.

What matters: what are you going to do to ensure your survival?

We know that you've identified submission as the best reaction (or inaction as I think of it) when confronted with an armed assailant who has “the drop” on you. But you can't seem to explain in detail why this is a good idea in light of the fact that you’re chancing your survival on what you hope will be the good will of a bad person.

All you’ve done is explain why the “fight for survival” crowd is wrong because they can’t beat the trigger pull. Instead, explain specifically in detail how/why your tactic is better.

Your other hang up; fear. Maybe for you, fear makes you comply and become submissive. For others it makes us fight, and desperately so.

Passive vs aggressive. We’re all different, there’s nothing wrong with handling the situation in opposite ways. But there is a problem with calling the “fight for survival” crowd foolish. The same can be said for the “comply and hope” crowd.

And there's no need to get smart and imply that I can't “keep up.” I’m well aware of the OP’s parameters. If you want to start that stuff the thread will get closed and you'll be dismissed as another hot head that can't get into a stimulating discussion with out taking pot shots at people.

sm
September 21, 2006, 12:10 PM
Read hers again please.

-GF and I fishing on a spillway , just down from the lake, the white bass were running and some boys had other ideas about my GF and it did not involve wallets or fishing tackle. We were some ~ 20 yards apart and they came from behind using the woods for cover. Country Girl and Reaction beats action when two boys have Buck 110s.

6 foot spinning rod to the face, will stop an immediate action, and keep distance at the same time. Allows BF [me] to gain that distance very fast. Tueller drill in reverse if you will. first guy hit, run into second and almost cut his buddy. Decided this my GF had grit, and would not be "easy" prey.

It was faster for her to use the fishing rod, than to access a handgun, allowed her to keep distance - allowed me to gain distance. She was evading and keeping distance. Neigher of us had to show weapons, none were shown, but she did gain enough distance and postition to do so, and I was in position to do so with cover if need (trees).

Intent.

We speak of the intent of user defines what a tool "is". Matches do not automatically make one an arsonist. A firearm does not make one a murderer, nor is it a magic talisman.

Intent is to survive and one can use anything as a tool of survival.

Spinning Rod in this case went from a "tool" to catch fish - to a "tool" to survive and not get raped.

I have used an antenna I ripped off a vehicle in the same manner, as I had just walked out of Gov't bldg, with metal detectors and Statues are NO CCW.


After this incident, we left, and in leaving saw a Sheriff's Car approqching - I flashed lights to get his attention, and we turned around and gave account and descriptions.

No cell phones back then, and I did not think wise to stop at a pay phone until more distance gained. No need to be followed to her place for a later problem.

Somehow folks survived without 911, cellphones, Internet, fancy guns and knives...

BGs have been committing the same crimes all these years before these new inventions come about too.

How long have rapes and money taken at "weapon-point" been going on now?



Aside - if bear cubs wants my trout being retrieved over shallow shoals, they can have it. Momma bear was coming in to "assist" and if Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

I can fish another spot...I can share a river...hey they have even been there first, just didn't see them and I intruded.

No need to start popping rds if I do not have to.

Firearms are great, just not the only "tool" in a "toolbox" - or shouldn't be.

While this ain't rocket science - it does require one to think out of the box and...keyword is...Think.

Steve

tydephan
September 21, 2006, 01:05 PM
But for the 99.9% of gun owners (the marginally trained/untrained), resistance under that circumstance would be disastrous.
Can you prove this statistic? That 99.9% of gun owners are marginally trained/untrained?

The only reason I ask is because this is a major point in your argument, as I have read it in just about every single post so far.

It is ironic, to me at least, that you are willing to trust a bad guy with your life (even with a gun held to your head while he is wild-eyed, twitching with snot hanging out of his nose crazy) but distrust and demand proof from fellow TFL members regarding situations that have happened to them or "evidence" to back up their theories.

The burden of proof lies with you.

If you want to start that stuff the thread will get closed and you'll be dismissed as another hot head that can't get into a stimulating discussion with out taking pot shots at people.
This has already happened once. Apparently the moderator's comments about calming down and re-reading to understand other's views went unnoticed. Perhaps I am as guilty as others, so I will not continue this "dialogue" further.

Hedley
September 21, 2006, 01:09 PM
I would act confused, speak in tongues, then jump in the water, making a cool getaway.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 01:28 PM
wild-eyed, twitching with snot hanging out of (her) nose crazy

That could be my ex-wife.

Can you prove this statistic? That 99.9% of gun owners are marginally trained/untrained?


No. I can not prove it to be true any more than you can prove it to be untrue.

It's a generalization. But you're right. It might be too high. Probably more like, 99.7%.

tydephan
September 21, 2006, 01:31 PM
LOL. Funniest post yet!

Lurper
September 21, 2006, 01:56 PM
P.A.R.
I agree with some of your points, however your logic and "reality" are flawed. Before I go farther, there is one caveat: in real life situations like this there are too many variables for one pat answer. So speaking in general, it really isn't that hard to draw and fire before someone else can pull the trigger. Again a lot of variables, but if you picture just standing there and drawing without either moving, moving the assailants weapon or both then you are correct. Most people can draw and fire with a little practice in around .6 - .7 seconds using the old combat rock. An assailant within arms reach is much less of a threat than one 4' or more away. Try this, have a friend hold his finger to your head. Tell him to say bang when he thinks you are a threat or even when he percieves you to move. There are many techniques to use, but try just this. Squat quickly (if you can't squat, duck). Either film or have someone watch where the finger is pointing when your friend says bang. Even without practice you can move out of the line of fire. Now add distractions or other moves like slapping or grabbing the weapon and you can see where it will lead.

Secondly: Fear: you assume that fear paralyzes or inhibits one's ability to act when for some it actually enhances their speed and ability.

Third: Compliance guarantees survival. Again not true. Just because you comply doesn't mean the BG isn't going to shoot you. So advocating that as the best course of action to guarantee survival is no better than advocating drawing and firing as the best course. To say "resistance is futile and suicidal" is jumping to a conclusion which you don't have any evidence to support. I will take my chances facing down a wired crackhead all day long, any day. Especiallly if he has the tv gansta sideways grip going on. I would think twice however about facing down some of my acquantances who aren't as fast as I am because I know their mindset. Also, your conclusion is really predicated on the bg hitting you with his first shot and the first shot taking you out of action. This is also not necessarily likely. In fairness, it is just as likely that my first hit won't stop him either, that is why I train to fire 6 rounds in these situations.

Fourth:Well trained and less than well trained people should react differently. Again not true. That should be dictated by the situation. Sometimes compliance may be the best course.

Fifth: You seem to dismiss someone's decision to resist as less valid or intelligent than one's decision to comply. They are both valid for that person. If I believe that I am likely to be killed or gravely injured, I will resist by any means possible. I will not die like a sheep at slaughter. That is my decision and I can live with it.

Finally most have ignored the most important factor: mindset. If you don't have the proper mindset, you probably should comply. This should tell you that you need to train, even a little. Also, the bg may not have the proper mindset which increases your chances of survival. He may not intend to kill you and my want no part of murder, but by robbing someone at gun point he must accept the responsibilty for his actions. Whether they lead to his death or somone else's.

The question as read it was: What would I do if someone had a gun pointing at my head?
I offered my response and because of space constraints a short justification. My answer would still be the same. I did not however condemn nor belittle anyone for choosing to comply. I find it as incredible that you guys don't believe that it is possible to draw against someone who has the drop on you as you do that I know that I can. The difference is I don't say that anyone who does not believe it is stupid.

gunslinger1911ACP
September 21, 2006, 02:26 PM
1. Hand over my wallet
2. Draw and shoot them in the back
3. Get my wallet back
4. Kick them in the head
5. Shoot them again to make sure they're dead

bestbod85
September 21, 2006, 02:42 PM
In my opinion, if someone is already drawn, there is no way you will draw against him before he shoots you, even with a 1 in a million shot a distacting him effectivily, he will still be faster.

if it were me, id treat this as a tactical hand to hand situation, i would comply, reach for my wallet and go to hand it over, when he is close enough, and grabbing for the wallet, grab his weilding hand (either the wrist or the side of the gun barrel ) and push his hand away from you while simultaniousily side stepping out of the line of fire, proceed with a swift shot to his eyes nose or throat, and continue to disarm him. granted this takes training and experience, but it will turn out to be the most effective choice IMHO.

sm
September 21, 2006, 02:59 PM
Lurper,

Good points made in your post, thanks.

PAR-

A bit of thread drift, still related.

Yes I have had a loaded gun pointed at me - more than once. Each situation is different, with variables.

I posted this somewhere, either here on TFL or THR at the time...

I pull up to a place to buy cigarettes, I mean I am pulling into parking place just to the right of front door. I am not fully stopped and a scuffle breaks out on the sidewalk between me and front of tobacco store and one guy produces a gun and the gun fails to fire as he is not more than 3 steps from the guy he intends to shoot.

Fellow (intended victim) takes evasive action he runs! I am backing the truck up, I am evading best can, but I have to make sure I don't run over someone on foot, or another vechicle.

Now shooter sees me and from the hood of my vehicle he points and pulls trigger, I am below dash, and now open door to "see" how to keep backing up...

I am told (as I kinda busy getting distance to see this) by witnesses he kept racking the slide, and pulling trigger.

I evaded, got to a safe area, took plate numbers and everything as the "shooter" and "victim" left the parking lot.

Once all clear, I went back, and used styrofoam coffee cups to mark all the extracted ctgs for Police and investigation. I let the officer read from my hand the tag numbers.

I basically answered questioned officers needed to ask, let them read my hand, then they called in APB and then..."tell us from the top what happened, if you would please" . These officers were super nice and understanding. They really cared about how I was doing and holding up. I told them adrenalin dump would hit in a bit, and I would rather stay outside and smoke while I did share and "fine, you need to dump, we will be here for you when you do". They were, I mean they totally understood all this.

"He kept pointing that gun at him [me] and pulling trigger" witnesses said.

Best guess, he did not want me as a witness to him shooting the other guy. Officers shared. Made sense to me...at the time, I was busy taking an action to worry about the "why" just I knew I had to take action, something, just don't be stationary , Move, stay low, and watch my back. That was the other concern, someone coming up from behind me , being an accomplace of him.

Rest of the folks? Well employees were "right there" and could have easily been shot if shooter and chosen to shoot.

Sidewalk? Plenty of folks in the open and not using the columns for cover, or even run back into adjacent business.

Seems I was the only one taking an action, and my action was "distance" and use my truck for cover.

I was the only one that had tag numbers and 'script of vehicles, and direction they took. I had a real good look of the shooter.

Yes I was CCW-ing. Darn straight I could have shot using weak hand from driver's window and hit a target at front of hood distance. I happen to practice this very presentation from my personal vehicle.

I was concerned about getting distance for ME. My mind flashed in a nanosecond about the backstop, and that would have been dicey. Employees to the left of where I would have been shooting...no way of knowing if ALL employees to the left, or any in back area beyond front of store ( the way this place laid out) and a miss hitting someone...

IF, If I could not evade, due to not being able to back up, and that gun had fired, I would have tossed truck in drive and hit the gas and taken him down and thru the front of store. That would have been the quickest way for ME to stop that particular immediate threat.

Yes I have practiced doing that exact same thing with a vehicle as well. I have done some "vehicle defensive training".

Problem 2 did not come about from the choice of action I chose that day either.



Firearms are not the only answer to every situation - contrary to what the Gun Grabbers would have some think.

OBIWAN
September 21, 2006, 03:53 PM
It really comes down to

Do you believe he will take your money and leave you alive.

Show of hands....good .....everyone in that situation says give them the money.

Nobody advocates allowing yourself to be killed without fighting back.

Nobody disputes the fact that by fighting back you will likely suffer harm and possibly die (except Lurper ...but he is from krypton:D )

But I will say it again....most of you are fixated on your handgun to the exclusion of all other options...and that is a bad thing.

At extremely close quarters you might easily be better served with your hands and/or an edged weapon...remember the Tueller Drill that most of you probably accept....just reverse it...now you are the guy with the knife and waaayyyy inside 21 ft.

"An assailant within arms reach is much less of a threat than one 4' or more away"

Right....I am much more afraid of a guy 400 yds away than one with a gun at my head/knife at my throat:D

I would agree that your ability to disarm someone is better if they are close

( just like it is easier to run away if they are 50 feet away)

And it gives you some additional options...as I stated before

But it takes some away too

But a blanket statement like that is just too easy to poke holes in:D

Gunslinger.....I hope they let you room with someone nice (in prison)

I think the bad guy would probably shoot you before he would simply turn his back.

If not...well then he is stupid and he probably deserves to get shot in the back.

Unfortunately I will not be on your jury so you are going to do time.

Bud Helms
September 21, 2006, 04:14 PM
Choices some one is pointing a gun at you demanding $$ do u...

hand them your wallet and hope they don't kill you.
Draw and fire until he is unable to harm you.
don't know what to do
'Not so sure that's all the choices you have, but it typifies the choices we seem to expect today:


Don't kill him
Kill him
Hold your breath


Life isn't multiple choice. Sorry. BUZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Try again.

Jason607
September 21, 2006, 04:24 PM
Watch the laws where you live. Some places, once the thug gets your wallet and walks away or puts he weapon down, the liberals say the mugging is over, and to act after that is just revenge.

My best friend growing up, his father was mugged by a homeless man with a knife. He handed over his wallet but as soon as the mugger walked away, my freinds dad went to his truck, got his .45, chased the homeless man down and unloaded a clip into him, got his wallet back. He was not charged, but this took place back in 1968. Back then, the law didn't protect those who break it. Now, it seems the law is made for the criminal.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 21, 2006, 04:30 PM
1. Hand over my wallet
2. Draw and shoot them in the back
3. Get my wallet back
4. Kick them in the head
5. Shoot them again to make sure they're dead

I laughed at loud at this one.

(Does that make me a bad person?)

:D :D

garryc
September 21, 2006, 10:24 PM
Nobody disputes the fact that by fighting back you will likely suffer harm and possibly die

True

But I will say it again....most of you are fixated on your handgun to the exclusion of all other options...and that is a bad thing.

Very true, it's only one tool and not always the best choice.

An assailant within arms reach is much less of a threat than one 4' or more away"


Yep, he's outside striking distance. I'd rather he be very close or in contact with my head. The head is a small target and easily articulated. If he is pointin at the torso you have to move more mass to get outside his line of power.

At extremely close quarters you might easily be better served with your hands and/or an edged weapon...remember the Tueller Drill that most of you probably accept....just reverse it...now you are the guy with the knife and waaayyyy inside 21 ft.

But you must be trained to use USD and edged weapons. A simple stab isn't going to likely do it.

Lets be a little graphic on the knife strokes.

In the stab to the throat we are not talking a simple stab. In this case as you move through the action you are steping though, getting your foot behind his. twisting the knife and driving the edge up and back into the neck muscles where it will either pass through (because you missed the cervical spine) or imbed in the cervical spine. Then the foot that passed through is used to sweep the legs. He's either done or his day took a serious turn for the worse. This requires the blade to be in the uptrust position.

With the blade pointing for a down stroke, edge away from you, a punching motion is made while keeping contro of his gun arm. The stroke is across the throat followed by a hammer blow between the shoulder and neck severing the nerve cluster that controls the arm. After that blow the blade is withdrawn and another hammer blow is delivered to the temple. Gastly ain't it. No matter how much PCP he's got in him he's done.

The third main stroke is with the blade in the down stroke position. The edge being toward your forearm. An upstroke is made to the armpit severing the pectoral muscles and eliminating his ability to move his arm forward. Then his arm is passed over your head in an outside roll, puliing his arm toward his knee causing him to lean forward. At that point a hammer blow is delivered to the juncture of the skull and cervical spine. Lights out.

I guess you could say I like USD and knife training. In tight give me the knife any day.

JohnKSa
September 21, 2006, 11:07 PM
Nobody disputes the fact that by fighting back you will likely suffer harm and possibly die.Actually, the statistics show that resisting violent crime by using a firearm offers you the BEST chance of remaining uninjured.

However, every situation is different, and there's no way to prescribe a single course of action that will be right for every scenario that fits the very general description at the top of this thread.If anyone is silly enough to believe they can outdraw a guy with a gun already pointed at them they are seriously mistaken.It can be done, even to the extent of getting off a shot before the other person does. However, instant incapacitation with from a single shot isn't a likely outcome. That means that there is a VERY good chance you will be shot even if you can draw and fire before the attacker responds.

HOWEVER, statistics show that even if you DON'T fight back you are more likely to be injured than if you fight back using a gun.

There's only one right answer to this question: It depends.

Anyone who tells you any differently doesn't know what they're talking about.

BTW, it should be OBVIOUS that there is NO defense strategy that will guarantee a defender remains uninjured in a violent crime. And even if you choose the one that is statistically best, there is no guarantee that it will save you from being killed.

It depends on the situation, on the attacker and on you.

garryc,

Knives can be a very effective self-defense tool, but statistically speaking, they offer a defender one of the worst options for remaining uninjured while resisting a violent crime. In other words, you are statistically better off not fighting back than using a knife in self-defense.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 11:22 PM
Knives can be a very effective self-defense tool, but statistically speaking, they offer a defender one of the worst options for remaining uninjured while resisting a violent crime. In other words, you are statistically better off not fighting back than using a knife in self-defense.

That's because statistically fewer people know how to use a knife than know how to use a gun. That and the fact that most people have an adversion to carving someone up like a chicken.

JohnKSa
September 21, 2006, 11:33 PM
That's probably part of it. I'm not telling you what YOU should do--I know at least one person who's more dangerous with a knife than a gun up close--I'm just cautioning you against recommending your approach to others.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 11:43 PM
JohnKSa I believe if you would seach all my posts you would find my consistant recommendation is to train, train , train. And make the training as real as you can. It has taught me two things:
1) A person with the right mindset can be darn effective with or without a
gun.
2) Be the best you can be and you might still lose, but you are less likely to
lose.

bestbod85
September 22, 2006, 05:05 AM
Garryc, I totally agree with you on both counts, first basing what you "would do" on statistics alone is an amature point of view, you should know your strengths and your weaknesses well enough to judge for yourself what you are capable of....as garryc said statistically more people then not, don't know how to use their knives and second even if they do, it is more mental preparation to get used to the idea that someday, you may actually have to use it. train,train,train and train some more, it is the only way to know what you can and cannot do.

Mikeyboy
September 22, 2006, 08:20 AM
I have studies knife fighting and martial arts for years, but in this case I would have to side with pulling a gun, instead of a knife. With a sharp knife I'm pretty confident I can kill a BG, but he will take a second or two to die. That is too much time for him to shoot me. Nothing says instant lights out like a bullet in the BGs head.

garryc
September 22, 2006, 08:33 AM
I have studies knife fighting and martial arts for years, but in this case I would have to side with pulling a gun, instead of a knife. With a sharp knife I'm pretty confident I can kill a BG, but he will take a second or two to die. That is too much time for him to shoot me. Nothing says instant lights out like a bullet in the BGs head.

Mike, the point is I can't get to it fast enough. When it's in a position that I can It's not well concealed. In ohio you do not want anyone to get a flash of your weapon. Would I rather give the guy a third eye, yep.

OBIWAN
September 22, 2006, 10:02 AM
"Actually, the statistics show that resisting violent crime by using a firearm offers you the BEST chance of remaining uninjured"

Have you filtered those stats to exclude confrontation beyond arms reach.

The stats actually show that merely producing a weapon stops most altercations but I would think proximity might skew the results.

In a case where someone has a gun pointed at your head he might be less likely to walk away if you produce your weapon.

Also I believe those stats include bad guys not armed with a firearm...you know...the guys that brought a knife to a gunfight.

I am always amused when people cite those stats because if you truly believe them you could just carry a rubber gun, since in the majority of cases no shots needed to be fired:D

Mikeyboy

At contact distances you may (and likely will) have to settle for a shot from the retention position which will likely not be right between their eyes...more likely to their torso

Although that is a really cool visual;) sticking the gun up/out to "shoot them in the head" is just making it easier for the bad guy to take YOUR gun

It (gunshot)will not automatically cause more damage than a knife thrust to the same area.

And in close, an advantage to the knife is that even defensive moves against an edged weapon will inflict damage to the bad guy

And a knife is not as easily rendered inoperative as in forced out of battery, blocking the hammer, etc.

If I decided fighting was the way to go I would either be

1. Concentrating on controlling their weapon (hand to hand) so they cannot
shoot me while I concentrate on kicking their butt...hopefully

2. Strike with one hand to deflect thier aim while employing a knife or handgun

Of course another big variable is how they are positioned relative to you and how your weapon is carried. It is a VERY different situation if they are slightly behind your strong side shoulder and you are carrying strong side hip.

That would be MUCH different than them standing directly in front of you

And don't get me started on the "since this guy snuck up that close are you sure there is not another bad guy right behind you with another gun pointed at you"

As I said before..there are way too many variables for a simple, easy answer

Unless you just default to ego;)

Duxman
September 22, 2006, 12:49 PM
There are some very informative posts out there already let me just add some other factors that folks may or may not be considering:

What type of weapon does BG have? (If a revolver - you can tell whether or not its loaded or not, if an auto, can you tell if safety is off or not. Etc.) Especially at contact distances. This should factor in to what you intend to do next - resist or comply.

What type of stance is he/she in? Is the hold on the weapon a proper grip placement or some gangster type of gun handling?

What kind of shape is the weapon in? Is it well maintained or is it old and rusty?

In considering these options - its not easy to hit with a handgun. My old roommate recalls an incident in Atlanta where 2 women were fighting over a gun. One pulls a .38 revolver (within 3 feet of the other person) and emptied all 6 rounds - miraculously missing.

How much training do you have? Do you shoot once a month? Do you have advanced pistol craft training? Do you think the BG trains regularly with their weapons?

Personally I believe in fate. Like the old Vikings used to say...the Norsemen were incredible warriors....because they have the same mindset as the Samurai: They did not fear death. Accept that you will die one day - and that day has already been decided. So if you get into a "fight", confrontation or mugging - give it everything you got - if you are destined to live - you will - and if it is your time to go - even though you are wearing a bullet resistant shirt, pants, and helmet - and in your bullet resistant car, you will go.

The only question now remains - are you going to pass away as a wolf? Or a sheep? :cool:

JohnKSa
September 22, 2006, 09:00 PM
Have you filtered those stats to exclude confrontation beyond arms reach.No, they were not broken out that way. It simply compared the effectiveness (measured as the odds of remaining uninjured) of various types of resistance to violent crime. The stats also did not include information on whether or not the gun was fired or simply displayed.As I said before..there are way too many variables for a simple, easy answer...I agree 100%.

Kas
September 23, 2006, 12:36 AM
+1 Kozak6, give him his wallet!:confused:

Nigelcorn
September 23, 2006, 03:07 PM
Well, personally I think I would give him the wallet. If he had wanted to kill me, it would have been easier on his part to just shoot me right off the bat. I would give him the wallet hoping that most criminals would rather commit robbery than murder.

JohnKSa
September 23, 2006, 05:44 PM
If he had wanted to kill me, it would have been easier on his part to just shoot me right off the bat.It's not wise to rely on a criminal to think rationally. This is a person who thinks it's a good idea to earn money by pointing a gun at people--someone who's willing to risk his life and someone else's for $20. Maybe he's thought it through, probably he hasn't.

If he HAS thought it through, he'll figure out that it is NOT easier to shoot you right off the bat. You know where your money is and can get it out and give it to him a lot faster than he can find it by rifling through the pockets of a dead body on the ground. And a shot will attract attention--why attract attention BEFORE he has the money? It's much easier and safer for him to wait until AFTER he has the money and can make a run for it before shooting you.

Savage10FP308
September 23, 2006, 07:47 PM
Trip says "where the gun is pointed does not matter"??? I disagree there. Shoot me in the foot and I am still alive and likely reaching for my weapon. Shoot me in the head and I am depositing my blood and brains on the pavement. You just showed how little you know about these situations. You keep talking about "the will to survive" and how "most people dont like the idea of letting someone else decide whether they live or die". If someone has a gun pointed at your head, then they will be making that decision whether you like it or not. Even if you draw, they will still be making the decisions when they deposit the contents of their weapon into your brain after they make the decision to kill you for the, likely, small amount of cash that you "wentdown fighting" for!:rolleyes:

FS2K
September 24, 2006, 03:53 AM
I think the situation would be different everytime and you'd need to react accordingly. Everyone is different. For instance, I usually don't carry my wallet with me when fishing cus my surf shorts aren't really comfortable with a wallet in the back pocket so I usually leave my wallet locked in the dash compartment in the truck. If it's during the day I don't have a shirt on and I don't carry during the day, so, if I was approached during the day both he, and I would be **** out if luck. :)

If it were at night, (like when I usually go to places a gun is needed) I will have a dark blue hoody (my fishing jacket) on and zipped inside it's front right pocket is my little Jennings J-22. He wouldn't have a flashlight with him. If he did, I would have seen him coming and would be prepared to shoot long before he was close enough to demand anything. When he asks for my wallet I innocently shine my flashlight in his face as if to see who he is (a natural reaction he would expect and not be freaked out with) at which time I reach into my pocket (as if you comply to his wishes) and shoot him through the hoody. His night vision is screwed because of the flashlight so he'll have a hard time getting a bead on me, and with any luck the dark sweatshirt will help give me the added time needed to hit the deck, draw, aim and unload 5 of the magazines 6 rounds into him centermass. In the same pocket as my gun are usually 2 magazines, the first of which is already in my weak hand and in the gun right after the 5th round is away. At this time I decide if I continue to shoot or not, and if I do, I simply squeeze off the rest of the mag till I'm dry.
I am NO hero, nor am I bloodthirsty. But I will shoot if put into that situation because of the danger level present. By shining the light directly in his face I can positively identify the target before firing, assuring myself that it isn't one of my retarded friends pulling a prank on me (actually they know better). The 2nd spare mag is there to assure that I am armed when I retreat the area.

While avoidence is my first choice, that opinion was taken away because my only other escape route would be over a cliff and into the sea. In this situation I am cornered. That is the only reason I would shoot. People have been killed on the lava flats by Meth-heads in the past in robbery attempts, and I don't want to become a statistic.

Why the little J-22? I shoot good with it, it is thin, small and light, it's a semi-auto with a 7 round capacity, doesn't rust easily, and is easily replaced if I were to accidently drop in into the ocean, :)
And perhaps the MOST Important reason of all is: This situation is VERY unlikely to ever happen in real life to me.

kungfucowboy
September 25, 2006, 05:14 PM
depends i i was pocket carrying that day i would pretend i was reaching for my wallet and pull out the gun. if he was very close to me like contact distance i would likely try to get out of his line of fire while drawing. if he stands 3-7 yards away pointing a gun at me i'm going to be throwing my wallet away and praying to God very hard

Duxman
September 26, 2006, 08:46 AM
FS2K -

Nice idea with the flashlight. Definately added to my tactics book.

Tim Burke
September 26, 2006, 04:12 PM
There will be cues available to the "participant" that are not available to the "reader." In FoF exercises, it is entirely possible to draw on a drawn gun and beat them, especially if the assailant doesn't know what your response will be. The 2 times I've tried it I was successful. Beating them may not be sufficient to end the fight, however. Thus, even if you "beat" them you may still get shot. If you do get shot you need to do 2 things. Stay in the fight and remember that most people that are shot with handguns survive. Prominent exceptions to this rule: suicides, and people shot execution style.
Once, while at a position of disadvantage during an exercise, rather than draw on 2 drawn guns, I elected to flee. I thought that was a better solution that getting shot execution style on the floor. This leads to another point. I have no quarrel with people that think compliance is the safest path; that's how I came to be proned out on the floor in the first place. However, once it becomes clear that you have made an error in your judgment, and your opponent intends to kill you even though you have complied with his demands, it is not too late to change your mind. The odds may be against you, you may be shot, you may be killed. It doesn't matter. At that point you have nothing to lose but your dignity, and you only lose it if you die without a fight. Don't deny the reality that you face.

Dreadnought
September 26, 2006, 05:53 PM
The original poster said you are fishing, right? I'd take a deep breath and jump in the water if I were fishing from the bank. Crooks are lousy shots, besides most don't shoot at what they can't see.
What is being forgotten is that a guy with a gun thinks he is God Almighty and really doesn't expect you to resist. You must resist if there is a gun pointed at you, you need to assume the BG is going to shoot you regardless. And don't go about it half-assed, either. If you punch or kick, do it with all your might; if you bite, bite it off; if you pick up a stick, strike with all your might; if you shoot, aim for CM. Criminals can not be considered rational or logical and can not be held to their word. Don't think just because you hand over your wallet you will emerge from the situation unharmed.
I'll go down fighting.

JIH
September 26, 2006, 06:34 PM
let say your fishing alone and someone comes over with a gun pointing at your head and ask you to give him his wallet do you...
I'll probably say, "Bob, it was just a joke. Chill out, man."

Variation:
let say your fishing alone and someone comes over with a gun pointing at your head and ask you to give him his wallet do you...
I ask him to give me my gun.

The original poster said you are fishing, right? I'd take a deep breath and jump in the water if I were fishing from the bank
Hey, I watched Mythbusters, too! Go deep, Aquaman!

if you pick up a stick, strike with all your might
Yeah, but I'm assuming you have a fishing rod. Those really just kinda whip around a little, and are mory annoying than damaging. You could tie him up with the fishing line, but he's probably not gonna stand still while do it.

I say, hit him in the face as hard as you can with the trout you just caught. It's hard on the trout, but you were gonna eat it anyway, and the bad guy probably wasn't expecting to be trouted soundly that day.

3 weelin geezer
October 3, 2006, 12:56 AM
I would do this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4vNINn1uMk
Speed. Its all about speed. Of course the hand would not be empty or merely slapping. It would contain a baton at least.:cool:

dfaugh
October 3, 2006, 10:17 AM
None of the above

If he's pointing the gun at my head, and he's close (the gun is within my reach), I'm gonna take the fracking' gun away and shove it where the sun don't shine. If he's not close enough, I'll try to "lure" him in with the wallet, to get him within arms reach. Failing that he gets the wallet (but thrown on the ground, so MAYBE he's distracted long enough for me to draw and shoot or close the distance so I can kick his A$$).

If he's already got the gun pointed at you, and he's out of arms reach, there's pretty much no way you'll have time to draw and shoot before he shoots you.

LSU12ga
October 3, 2006, 07:37 PM
sunday night (8pm!!) a guy was mugged outside my apartment. apparantly a guy asked for money, and took his ID as well. The guy did not have his finger on the trigger, but did have a gun pointed at him. I think the best thing you can do is give them the money, most guys arnt out to kill you. this guy got away with 27 dollars....

Now, since it was 8pm i would suggest screaming your head off, might draw some attention.

David Armstrong
October 4, 2006, 04:12 PM
Give them the money. If they go away, great. If they persist, you can always escalate and get into a gunfight. But getting into a gunfight over a wallet is not a particularly good move, IMO. For most of us the lawyer fee from the shooting is going to be a lot more than the loss from the theft.

stephen426
October 4, 2006, 05:15 PM
While this forum tends to draw the shoot em' up type, you have to be realistic about your skill level and your ability to draw and fire under intense pressure. You can talk about training all you want, but if you fumble, you die.

I answered "I don't know" since it depends on the situation. You have to take into consideration that the bad guy did not shoot you first and then take your wallet. You might talk about trying to disarm the bad guy, but if he is 200+ lbs. of solid muscle, there is little or no chance of over powering him (unless you are also very strong and/or have a lot of martial arts training).

It is always better (in my opinion) to wait for an opportunity to draw safely than to draw on a drawn gun. I don't carry that much cash anyways.

The Boss
October 4, 2006, 06:59 PM
Been there, done that. I gave up the $$$. I was kicking myself and second guessing for years after that. :confused: Oh Well, coulda, woulda, shoulda, but I didn't.

JohnKSa
October 4, 2006, 08:15 PM
I was kicking myself and second guessing for years after that.That's natural, but if you're around to second guess in one piece, clearly you made the right choice for your particular situation.

Thedude
October 16, 2006, 08:51 PM
Unless you have some sort of law enforcement training, a civilians actions are almost completely unpredictable in a life threatening situation... I say life threatening because the law says in most states that opening fire or use of a firearm is roughly permitted ONLY in a life threatening situation (ie - If you think you're about to get mudered by another person, you can use your firearm).

In such a high stress situation, you lose most control of basic motor skills - You are shaking like a leaf, loss of coordination and bowl control sometimes, and your thought process is distorted and clouded, so you are not thinking clearly and correctly which may lead you to make the wrong decision! At least this is what I have gathered from conversations with several friends in LE.

So my take on an encounter like this is, do what ever you have to do to stay alive (and out of prison), and don't count on what you THINK you would be able to do if the time comes...Hopefully that time never comes for anyone of us!

Lurper
October 16, 2006, 09:55 PM
In such a high stress situation, you lose most control of basic motor skills - You are shaking like a leaf, loss of coordination and bowl control sometimes, and your thought process is distorted and clouded, so you are not thinking clearly and correctly which may lead you to make the wrong decision!
I find blanket statements like this troubling. Having BTDT myself more than once and having several friends who have, I can not think of one who has suffered any of those symptoms. Yet, people constantly push this train of thought. The times that I have been there, it was too intense and over too soon to be scared, I suffered no loss of coordination nor was my thought process clouded. Neither were any of the half-dozen friends who have BTDT. The biggest problem with this mindset is that you tell someone that this is how they should feel, so they do. Or, if they don't they think something is wrong with them. It's just like people preaching that you should feel remorse for killing someone who was trying to kill you. That is not necessarily normal. No more so than feeling exhilirated that you survived a deadly encounter. Yet we are socialized through the mainstream media and culture to think that if we successfully defend ourselves, our lives will be dramitically changed. Again, I can't think of any of my friends who are haunted by images of people they have killed (in war or as an LEO). Yet that is constantly pushed as what will happen and if you say it doesn't bother you, then you are just repressing your feelings.

It is nor more normal to lose control or the ability to think clearly under fire than not. That is why training is so important, so you have some idea of what to do before the event happens.

Odd Job
October 17, 2006, 05:43 AM
@ Lurper

Perhaps you could post some of those experiences: it would be enlightening to see the real world mechanics of these situations, instead of speculation.

David Armstrong
October 17, 2006, 01:55 PM
Quote:
Have you filtered those stats to exclude confrontation beyond arms reach.

No, they were not broken out that way. It simply compared the effectiveness (measured as the odds of remaining uninjured) of various types of resistance to violent crime. The stats also did not include information on whether or not the gun was fired or simply displayed.
Having had the chance to look at some of those stats, this is a key point. Prefacing my comments with the note that the numbers involved are sort of small, thus open to lots of swing:
2. Yes, in general if you fight back the robbery is less likely to succeed, and you are less likely to be injured.
2. If your assailant is armed comparably to you, the attack is less likely to succeed, but you are more likely to be injured than if you have weapon superiority.
3. If you fight back where the assailant has a comparable weapon, the injuries you suffer tend to be more severe than any otherwise.
Please pay attention to the note that th enumbers are small for this data. That is because it is quite rare for there to actually be any significant level of force used by either side when there is a weapon involved. Also note that overwhelminly when asked why they use a weapon, robbers say it is to gain compliance, not to injure someone. In fact there is some pretty good data that indicates that over 10% of the time when a robber is armed with a gun the gun is either a toy replica, inoperative, or unloaded. Food for thought!

David Armstrong
October 17, 2006, 01:59 PM
Yet, people constantly push this train of thought.
That train of thought is pushed because of the high frequency with which the problem occurs. Does it happen to everyone--no, although research tends to indicate that eveyone is subject to it depending on the situation.

Rangefinder
October 17, 2006, 02:12 PM
Didn't vote because the options were too limited--nedd a space for "OTHER". I'll be perfectly honest. With 90 posts so far, I haven't taken the time to go through and read each one. But if an attacker has a weapon pointed at me and they make the mistake of being within arm's reach, I OWN them. I promise you at the very least their weapon will be a good distanct from them and their arm will need a few plates, pins and screws to ever function again.

However... here's a little back-up I learned about and practiced whenever I had to travel in places I was not intimately familiar with.

Put together a "second" wallet. Keep a few small bills in it (a few 1's, maybe a 5), a few old reciepts, and a couple expired credit cards with the name and numbers burned off, misc other junk like expired phone card, a couple random business cards--whatever gives the appearance that it's the wallet you use. It's a cheap sacrifice that will more than likely allow you the opportunity to walk away intact. They'll be well on their way before they ever realise they've been had. Then make your phone call to local authorities.

Lurper
October 17, 2006, 05:58 PM
The two best examples:
My friend (and one of my early mentors) Roger was a cop in PG County MD. He was called to a liquor store because the 2 guys who robbed it were now in the store buying liquor (probably with their ill gotten gains). He rolled up on the scene got out of his cruiser and stepped onto the sidewalk just as the two perps were walking out the door. When they saw Roger at a distance of about 10' iirc, they both started reaching under their jackets. Roger drew his S&W 64, fired 5 rounds into the first guy, reloaded and had his sights on the second guy before the perp could pull his Mod. 29 out from under his coat. The second guy wisely surrendered. I was told by the guys in Roger's squad that the perp swore that Roger had a macinegun.

His biggest complaint was that the dept wouldn't let him come back to work for 10 days. It happened so fast that there was no time to think and he felt no remorse afterward.

My friend Wayne (same dept as Roger) responded to U-haul storage yard because someone had reported seein 2 guys jump the fence. He went in the storage yard with his revolver drawn. As he was searching the area, a guy who was hiding on top of a truck stood up with a crowbar in his hand, according to Wayne, the guy jumped off the truck toward him. Wayne shot the guy literally between the eyes - accidentally. Wayne also said that it happened so fast that he didn't have time to think about anything including pulling the trigger. He wasn't real happy about the incident, but iirc it was ruled a justified shooting. It shook him up for a bit, but from my understanding not to a huge degree.

While I have had people talk about having bad dreams or thinking about it occasionally, the media and popular culture try to convince us that: 1. it happens to everyone, 2: if you don't feel that way then there is something wrong with you or you are lying, 3. you will be haunted by it for the rest of your life. My point again is just that it is just as normal to not be haunted by it nor feel remorseful or even exhilirated by surviving a mortal confrontation.

Kruniac
October 17, 2006, 07:29 PM
Someone covering your with a peice is a hard thing to get out of, considering that no matter how much you practice, you MIGHT make a reflex/nerve/slow/whatever jerk towards the gun, giving the person time to fire.

I tell you what though - if I got ahold of the gun in that situation, that person wouldnt be walking away. Alone, out in the middle of nowhere, fishing?

..Yeah. The next fisherman would catch him by the pants leg.

JohnKSa
October 17, 2006, 08:16 PM
2. Yes, in general if you fight back the robbery is less likely to succeed, and you are less likely to be injured.
2. If your assailant is armed comparably to you, the attack is less likely to succeed, but you are more likely to be injured than if you have weapon superiority.
3. If you fight back where the assailant has a comparable weapon, the injuries you suffer tend to be more severe than any otherwise.Do you have a link to this? I don't remember that information being included in the stats that I quoted from...

David Armstrong
October 18, 2006, 04:23 PM
Do you have a link to this? I don't remember that information being included in the stats that I quoted from...
It's not. That is why I prefaced the statement with my "numbers are very small" comment. Until you reach a certain level of N, you really can't analyze the info with any level of accuracy. Since significant injury is so rare, it is difficult to get statistically usable numbers. We can see and talk about trends, and we can see how small numbers fit into the large picture (example: "out of over 400,000 robberies last year, less than 1000 resulted in the victim being killed by any means."). I'll see if I can dig up the original numbers. You can also extrapolate beyond the incident and look at defensive measures in general and their relative success/injury rates, but that has problems of its own.

gfen
October 18, 2006, 06:28 PM
I skipped reading this thread to respond, I feel I'm allowed to not care because you see, I've been there.

Walking out of my then job, a pizza shop, with just about $1000 in a deposit bag. Me and a driver.

Three masked men exited the abandoned building beside me, one had something pointed at me, and demanded the money.

What did I do? Handed it to him with as much politeness as I could given the situation. I think I may have even asked him if there was anything else he wanted. Then, he told the two of us to lie down and count to sixty.

We hit the pavement, but I didn't count. I wasn't much in the mood to. Instead, I waited. I remember my driver asking if we could get up at one point, and I replied, "No, let's give them some more time..."

Its money. I have something better to do than get shot, or even beat, for $1000 of someone else's cash. Hell, I have something better to do than I would for $1000, $2000, or even $5000 of my own money. Its called living, and I prefer to do it without any extraneous holes in my chest.

Now, I didn't carry at the time, but both my father and brother did. When they asked me about it, I told them quite confidently that had I a weapon on me, my response would have been to do the EXACT same thing, down to giving them some extra time to flee. Another fellow employee, a tough guy, told me how he'd have taken their gun and beat them with it. I laughed in his face, and told him that he'd have done the same thing, no matter how easy it is to make up these sorts of heroics when you're not staring down the barrel.

As it is now, I carry a firearm on a regular basis. Someday, this might happen to me again. Wanna know what I'd do if it happened tomorrow? Hand it over with a smile, and give them an extra 15 seconds to run off. Even with the ability to leverage firepower back, I still have better things to do than risk it all for a couple bucks, OR for that matter spend significantly more in legal fees just so I could have nightmares.

Life happens, be prepared, but don't be stupid.

Blackwater OPS
October 18, 2006, 07:04 PM
I should change by damn screen name to "Situational Awareness"...:rolleyes:

OBIWAN
October 20, 2006, 04:54 PM
"It is no more normal to lose control or the ability to think clearly under fire than not"

Based on that statement, I would say your sample size is far too small and/or far too homogeneous.

I have seen plenty of students have both problems in training situations (where the targets were not shooting at them)

Simply asking some more experienced students to "do it faster" can have a similar result. (no ..not always...but more often than you think)

The square range can help prepare you for violent encounters...no doubt about it. But while training will certainly help, it is not the universal cure.

Plenty of people are likely to forget everything they know anout fighting with a handgun the first time they truly find themselves "in harms way"

I believe it plays a part in the really horrible hit ratios you see in many police shootings

BPMACMAN
October 20, 2006, 10:50 PM
masaad ayoob had a great segment on outdoor channel last weekend regarding just this scenario.hard for me to explain without a bad guy to work with,but...
masaad explained ..sure let me grab my wallet and as he reached around with his right hand to grab his gun ,at the same time he used his left hand on the bad guys r / elbow turning him just enough and surprising him just enough,that masaad was able to put his weapon up to the bad guys head. i been practicing most of the week !

iowain45-70
October 21, 2006, 07:08 AM
i would draw and kill him.