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Jason607
September 20, 2006, 12:06 AM
A good freind of mine recently got married to a very sweet, pretty girl that looks very innocent, looks like an easy target. Some days, tuesdays and thursdays she got off early and would come home alone. Every time, someoen would try the door locks usually just the side one. Each time, they tried a little harder. One time, she called the police, they found a suspicious individual walking down the street, turned out to be a registered sex offender. However, without proof, they couldn't do anything. The police started patols on those day, tha activity stopped, but when the patols stopped, it started again. This guy was experienced I guess. He would only do it when she was home alone. We didn't think it was fair she should be afraid to come home alone, so we decided to take action.

On day she typically came home alone, we got to the house a lot earlier but parked way down the street. Came through the back way through the back door. She got home, but it looked like she was the only one there. We hid so we couldn't be seen from the windows, but she could. She sat on the couch where she usually did and we waited, but this time, we left the side door unlocked. If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt. He never came. Either he was that good of a stalker, or had given up, right when we were fed up.

Here is my question. How legal was that? Before we did it, we asked an LEO, his responce was "I can't recomend it, or say to do it, if he comes in right were you happen to be holding your gun, make sure he gets past the door frame before you do what you have to do"

jcims
September 20, 2006, 01:42 AM
I think your would-be rapist did you all a massive favor by not showing up that day.

It seems to me the focus should be on helping your buddy's wife be prepared to protect herself, and not baiting random perverts into a bad situation so you can splatter paint the walls. IMO there was way too much planning involved, and probably now way too much discussion about it, for this to look even remotely like self defense. I'm not sure if a case like this would get aggressively prosecuted in most places, but if it did, you and your buddy would probably get to play the wife every now and then yourselves...

Axion
September 20, 2006, 02:04 AM
If it ever got out that you planned this, and things like that tend to come out under cross examination, you'd be in jail for a long time.

IMO it would be much better to rig a camera up so you could have proof of him trying the door. Then teach the lady to shoot incase he did ever make it in.

garryc
September 20, 2006, 02:23 AM
laying in wait legally = FIRST DEGREE MURDER!!! That he was a convicted sex offender does not lessen the fact that you baited him, set a trap, then executed him. If I was on your jury and the facts were presented as you stated them I would convict you for murder. and no I would not cry for the victim.
That being said, this woman needs to take responcibiliy for her own security. She seemed perfectly willing to play your little game so I have to ask, Why would she not be willing to defend herself? Maybe she has this damsil in distress thing going on, or she likes being a victim and the center of attention. I have to wonder if, had your little murder happened, she would have turned on you to save her own arse.

I'd tell her, "Look sweetie, we'll teach you to shoot like a champ, teach you USD until you can kick Hulk Hogans arse, but if you aren't willing to take responcibility for your own security you can take your chances with all the other sheeple."

tanksoldier
September 20, 2006, 02:44 AM
Knowing that your friend's wife may be the target of a stalker/ rapist, and being there to help protect her "just in case" is fine.

Leaving the door unlocked HOPING that the guy would come in, and then shooting him when he does, is probably murder is many jurisdictions.

Here in Colorado I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be. I mean the guy still has to walk thru a door he has no business walking thru without invitation, and it's not like you're putting a gun to his head and MAKING him come inside, which would be murder even here... but we're a bit backward up here. ;)

garryc
September 20, 2006, 02:47 AM
If you are very darned lucky the cops will slant the evidence in your favor, but don't count on it. If I was the investigating officer I would present the facts exactly as I found them.

guntotin_fool
September 20, 2006, 03:03 AM
He was watching and saw you. He knows you know, have you seen him around since? Do you have a picture of him around?

Second if you were in the home and he walks in, as a registered sex offender in the home of a woman he thought was alone, No prosecutor is going to risk his carrier on writing murder charges against you.

I would prefer the method of offering to buy the guy a drink, and then explaining in detail that should your friends wife suffer a hang nail in her home, you would be more than willing to dispose of his body in a redimix cement truck. Explain then that you are going to find any and every one he every cared about and do to them what he did to her. I have used this method twice, once with a guy who was stalking my wife and another who was abusing my cousin, both times when faced with plain stark terms of the end of their life, they have stopped.

This may not be the PC answer, but it does work. Don't threaten, don't say in ear shot of anyone, but let him know that if he continues to bother her, his alloted time is up.

Fn-P9
September 20, 2006, 03:03 AM
Wait a min here. Whats the differnce in self defence in that "not knowing" the treat is comming vs "knowing" that a threat MY be coming. Seeing that this is in NO WAY a trap as I see it. A sexy girl wearing a short skirt is not a trap for a rapist to be "magnetically" drawen to raping said girl. Even if you hid in the bushes and he came bustin through the door to rape your girl then you popped out and shot his a**, how is that wrong? He had criminal intent to do bodily "harm" or worse. If I sat on the jury on this case I'd say heck yeah. Glad to see that that guy wont bother me or anyone else.

TEACH YOUR GIRL TO USE A GUN, KARATE, 2X4 WITH NAIL ON END ect.

thank you

tanksoldier
September 20, 2006, 03:15 AM
That isn't what matters. Leaving the door unlocked on purpose is could be construed as premediation.

Whats the differnce in self defence in that "not knowing" the treat is comming vs "knowing" that a threat MY be coming.

atlctyslkr
September 20, 2006, 08:10 AM
I"m all for cleaning up the streets but unfortunately this is nothing more than a booby trap with human bait. Remember the case of the guy who rigged his door with a shotgun? It's okay to be armed in your own home and if you live in a stand your ground state then you can put a load of buckshot in an uninvited guest but don't advertise it.

Duxman
September 20, 2006, 08:44 AM
There is nothing wrong with being armed in your own home, prepared to deal with trouble if it comes along.

BUT planning such a intricate "trap" in which you leave a door unlocked, hide behind the couch, and baiting your intended target (with the honey trap) borders on 1st degree murder.

Arm your friend's wife. Get her training. This is not going to be the last threat that she will face in her life. So better to be prepared for anything in the future as well as this possible threat.

springmom
September 20, 2006, 08:46 AM
You'd have to ask a lawyer in your state. Prosecution for shootings vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Had you simply held him for the police, I expect you'd have gotten a pat on the back followed by "and don't ever do that again". Had you shot him? Ask a lawyer.

Come to think of it, next time, ask the lawyer first.

Springmom

Savage10FP308
September 20, 2006, 09:33 AM
How can leaving the door unlocked on purpose cause you to be convicted for murder? If I am home and a person I know to be a sex offender walks in my house to do something to my wife then they are getting shot. I wouldn't shoot him unless he had a weapon of some sort since I live in Illinois but if he didn't have a weaon then I would hold him at gunpoint (him on the floor-hands on head-gun aimed at head) while my wif phoned the police. If he moved I would proceed to give him the beating of his life. Just because yu leave the door unlocked doesn't mean you forced him t walk through it. The victim doesn't cause the crime no matter how bad some people want to believe it.

Glenn E. Meyer
September 20, 2006, 09:44 AM
Springmom is so smart!! Talk to a lawyer and document the threat. Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto.

IT'S MURDER! How do you know if you aren't a lawyer in that jurisdiction?

Samurai
September 20, 2006, 10:14 AM
The meaning of "lying in wait" has to do with premeditation and deliberation as an aggravating circumstance, elevating murder to first-degree, or such as that... You can't really "lie in wait" in your own home.

Technically, you have the right to sit in your home with the doors unlocked. And, you have the right to shoot anyone who walks through your doors uninvited, provided they are behaving in a threatening manner sufficient to make you fear for your life.

The problem is, if you've intentionally left the door open, expecting the guy to come in so that you can shoot him, then you haven't really shown anybody that you're "in fear for your life." In fact, you've essentially invited this dude in so that you can bust a cap in him.

Technically, a good lawyer (read: rotten human-being) could probably put together a good argument to the jury as to why you should not go to jail for the rest of your life and forfeit all of your worldly possessions to the five crack-babies this scumbag left behind. BUT, juries hate vigilantes. Juries hate cowboys. And, juries HATE LAWYERS!!! Never rely on a lawyer to get you through a sticky situation. Just stay un-sticky.

You were probably within your right to bait this guy, so long as you were CERTAIN that you could take him alive. But, if you had to shoot-to-kill, then I would expect some heavy legal fees to follow...

Ronny
September 20, 2006, 10:34 AM
Talk to a lawyer and document the threat. Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto.

While I agree that documenting this with the authorities is the smartest course of action, I also sympathize with you and your friend's situation:

It's as if you can't really do anything to this stalker unless you catch him in the act (and it's too late for the girl), or he's already done it (and it's too late for the girl) and is now awaiting trial for another couple of years of free room and board (prison) -- after which he will be released so he can do it again (as he is now) to another girl. I don't know about you, but I don't like waiting around for my wife to get raped just so I can legally take action.

Criminals have that advantage, they know you can't legally do anything until they do it first. Unless you want to end up in prison with them -- in which case you'll just get out after a couple of years and can resume your business.

The law-abiding seem to be more afraid of going to jail than the law-breakers, which only serves to tie up our hands and do nothing even if we are in danger. You can observe this in many police videos: a gunshot goes off, or someone is being beaten in a public place and no one does anything. They just watch, and wait for someone else to do something for them.

bill in IN
September 20, 2006, 10:48 AM
I would wager that any lawyer who will tell you that it is or isn't convictable is either inexperienced or has other problems. Conviction requires a jury unless you waive that right. Anybody who thinks they can dtermine what a jury will do.....

springmom
September 20, 2006, 10:54 AM
Pay no attention to the men behind the Internet, Toto

You know, you ought to turn that into a sig line. Or sell bumper stickers that say that, or something. LOL!!!!!!

Springmom

spacemanspiff
September 20, 2006, 11:22 AM
While society would probably be a little safer with the sex offender behind bars or 6 feet deep, it would be far better if you were to find his picture and the crimes he is convicted of and hang posters around the neighborhood warning everyone else about him.

bartonkj
September 20, 2006, 12:03 PM
Let's go over some definitions here (exact definitions may vary by jurisdiction but generally): Please note this is not legal advice - just an ACADEMIC discussion of legal terms IN GENERAL

-homicide: killing of a human being by another human being.
-justifiable homicide: killing of a human being by another human being with legal justification: self-defense is in this catagory.
-manslaughter: unlawful killing of a human being by another human being either through direct action or through inadvertence.
-1st degree murder: killing of a human being by another human being with malice aforethought (i.e., premeditation - or intending beforehand to carry out action that can reasonably be expected to casue death or serious bodily harm).
-2nd degree murder: killing of a human being by another human being by intent but without malice aforethought. (i.e., you intended to carry out action that can reasonably be expected to cause death or serious bodily harm, but you did not specificly plan to do this action beforehand)

1) self-defense
If you are in your house and your door is unlocked and someone enters your house without permission and you have a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm from this person then you have the justification to use deadly force to protect yourself or others in the immediate area.

There is nothing wrong with leaving your door unlocked. There is nothing wrong in defending yourself against an immenant threat of death or serious bodily harm.

2) murder
a) door lock - If you immediately anticipate a person entering your home and you leave the door unlocked - that action could be evidence of a design to make a confrontation more likely. Most reasonable people would lock their door if they anticipated someone entering their home without permission.
b) laying in wait - if you hide out in the house in a specific spot in anticipation of a person entering your home, especially with the door unlocked, and you intend to "confront" this person it provides evidence that you may have not been in fear of death or serious bodily harm - a "reasonable" person in fear of death or serious bodily harm who anticipates a confrontation would call the cops, etc....
c) premeditation - taking everything together - anticipating that someone will enter your house and your plans to make it easier for them to do so and your plans to confront them with an ambush (especially with a deadly weapon) is premeditation to carry out an act that can reasonably be expected to cause death or serious bodily harm.

DIFFERENCE - the difference between self-defense and murder in this situation is your state of mind. If you lay in wait intending to ambush someone and make it easier for a confrontation to happen - that could be 1st degree murder because your state of mind anticipated and intended this action.

NOTE: when I say anticipate I don't mean in the general sense that you train for defenseive firearms use in anticipation of needing to protect yourself some day in the future.

RevolverLover
September 20, 2006, 12:12 PM
What you did was illegal. I strongly recommend that you document the incidents and get your friends wife some self defense training. A few hidden cameras around the outside of the house would be helpful. Also warn neighbors about this person.


While society would probably be a little safer with the sex offender behind bars or 6 feet deep, it would be far better if you were to find his picture and the crimes he is convicted of and hang posters around the neighborhood warning everyone else about him.

That would probably lead him to getting sued for defamation of character. :barf:

Capt Charlie
September 20, 2006, 12:32 PM
If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt.
That one statement is the problem.

There's two separate issues here, the "trap", and your actions after the trap is sprung.

Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers. A female cop is placed on the street, dressed like a hooker. She's the bait for a "John", but the trick is that she cannot solicit anyone. As long as the John makes the approach and does the soliciting, it isn't entrapment. Now if she says anything like "Hey big boy, wanna party?", it becomes entrapment.

This is a similar situation. Simply leaving the door unlocked isn't a problem. But if anything further was done that would clearly bait him to enter, you'd have a big problem.

Then there are your actions after the pervert enters. Your post suggests that you intend to gun him down, no matter what. That's not going to fly, no matter where you are.

Your actions are going to be governed by the laws of your state that pertain to defense against burglary, and whether or not deadly force to defend another is justified. It's also going to depend on the offender's actions when you confront him.

If you detain him for police, using only the minimum amount of force necessary to accomplish that, there shouldn't be a problem. But if you kill him, and investigation reveals you had that planned the whole time, you are most definitely looking at a charge of premeditated murder.

James K
September 20, 2006, 02:02 PM
A storekeeper, after having been repeately burglarized, waited in his darkened store and shot and killed a man who broke in. He was found guilty of murder. There were two factors against him. The first was that he laid a trap; it was not his home and his only purpose for being there was to kill an intruder. The second was that he had been heard bragging that he would fire without warning at any "SOB" who came in. The combination got him convicted.

A man who set a shotgun trap rigged so that opening the door pulled a string that set off the gun was also convicted of murder when his burglar trap killed a man. The jury found that first, he was not in danger (he was miles away), second that burglary is not a capital offense, and third that the victim could have been a child or someone simply seeking shelter. The trap had no fear and no judgement.

Jim

Wildalaska
September 20, 2006, 02:12 PM
Murder

WildseecaptcharliesanswerAlaska

Samurai
September 20, 2006, 02:16 PM
Regarding the famous old story of the guy who rigged the shotgun trap to kill someone who opened the door:

1. It wasn't his house. It was an abandoned old house on an old farm he owned.
2. The shotgun trap killed a small child.
3. The guy knew that small children liked to come in and explore/vandalize the abandoned old house. The guy set the trap (they call them "spring-guns") to "teach those kids a lesson." That guy was a really sick puppy...

But, that's a TOTALLY different case from what we're talking about. What our guy did was wait in an unlocked house. That's not a "trap," really. It's just placing yourself in anticipation of entering a shootout. I still think our scenario is not quite kosher, but it's not as heinous as the famous old story of the guy who set the shotgun trap.

Socrates
September 20, 2006, 03:30 PM
Capt, sometimes police tempt a man's soul.
"Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers. A female cop is placed on the street, dressed like a hooker. She's the bait for a "John", but the trick is that she cannot solicit anyone. As long as the John makes the approach and does the soliciting, it isn't entrapment."

When I was working in the SFDA's office, we had one female officer that worked vice. She made Playboy bunnies look like boys.;) I used to suffer everytime she came in to testify, after working all night, in her skin tight, black, outfits.

She was one in a million, and, if you never contemplated prostitution, she would make you. I think that qualifies
as entrapment.;) This person would normally NEVER consider prostitution, but, this woman would make you consider it. No prior inclination, never done it before, but looking at her, I would certainly think about it...;)

"I would prefer the method of offering to buy the guy a drink, and then explaining in detail that should your friends wife suffer a hang nail in her home, you would be more than willing to dispose of his body in a redimix cement truck. Explain then that you are going to find any and every one he every cared about and do to them what he did to her. I have used this method twice, once with a guy who was stalking my wife and another who was abusing my cousin, both times when faced with plain stark terms of the end of their life, they have stopped.

This may not be the PC answer, but it does work. Don't threaten, don't say in ear shot of anyone, but let him know that if he continues to bother her, his alloted time is up."

I like the above approach, but, the guy might be wired,
and, it's assault, in most jurisdictions. The threat of force,
when you have the ability to do it, at close proximity, when the person has a good reason to believe you will do it, is usually assault. If it isn't, it's probably not going to achieve your end goal.

The problem with sex offenders is they have a very high rate of repeating, something like 96%, and, it's almost beyond being a rational act with them. Logic, and threat of force is not likely to work, unless, as I said, it's either assault, or, it's followed by a bit of battery.

Also, setting the trap might be legal, or viewed as such for LEO, and, the rules for you might be considerably different.
It all depends on state law. If the Louisiana government hasn't managed to get a hold of your guns, with their illegal confiscation, I believe that state, and Texas, at times, holds you can shoot an intruder, period, on your property. Louisiana was based on French law, and, it put property over people, which, in retrospect, may have a number of valid points.

I think Kalifornia requires you to back up, give the guy the keys to your safe, allow him to take all objects, rape your wife, and, only then if he is within arms reach, or starts shooting at you with one of the guns he took out of your safe, are you allowed to shoot the intruder...:barf: :mad:

S

Jason607
September 20, 2006, 08:20 PM
Thanks for the replies. I guess a good prosicuter could say that because you sleep with a gun in your dresser, that could be a trap as well. It was not our first option, but the police weren't very helpfull, probally because they couldn't. The scary part was that this guy was good, very good, too good, must have had practice. We had several reports, I belive it was nine reports in all.

If it did happen, the trap part would have not come out. Let the lawyer do the talking. See, we first stopped at our buddy's house, and decided to walk to our other buddy's house because it was just basically, accross the back yard and down a little. We just happened to be hanging out when this perv came running in the door.

I wanted to just bust him in the act, but my other buddy wanted a peice of him for stalking his wife. A convicted sex offender lets himself in uninvited when it appeared a girl was left alone. I know the police are limited, but I think thier egos were getting to them. They started saying she was imagining things, because except that one time, there wasn't a trace of this guy.

In all, they moved. That was a relief. Another woman was raped about a mile away. We taught her to shoot, but she just gets too afraid when trying to pull the trigger. If she's scared to use it, she's better off without it.

I don't belive this can be compared to the rigged shotgun, or even the store owner setting a trap. What was the difference? I'll tell you, those traps were against people steeling in what they thought was an inhabited place, in our trap, the building was occupied, but we just didn't quite reviel by who and how many. The laws around here are pretty conservative.

JohnKSa
September 20, 2006, 09:57 PM
This is just my opinion.

If you decide to plan the death of a specific person, you'd better not tell anyone about it--EVER. I don't care if the external circumstances make it look perfectly justifiable, sitting down and planning a course of action that will end up with a specific person dead is over the edge to my way of thinking.

I don't see it as being the same as saying: "I have a plan to defend my family should someone break in. That's not thinking of a specific person, it's focusing on stopping a crime or general category of crime.

When you stop dealing with how to defend yourself against crime or criminals and go to planning how to end the life of a specific criminal that gets very touchy, IMO.

garryc
September 20, 2006, 10:00 PM
If it did happen, the trap part would have not come out. Let the lawyer do the talking. See, we first stopped at our buddy's house, and decided to walk to our other buddy's house because it was just basically, accross the back yard and down a little. We just happened to be hanging out when this perv came running in the door

Lets see, I count 4 participants. Now if you think 4 participants are going to hide the truth and keep on the same story line in the face of professional interogation you got another thing coming.

springmom
September 20, 2006, 10:15 PM
Garryc has that right. It would not take long for inconsistencies to start surfacing, and then you all would be in deep trouble. Even if the original act wasn't a chargeable offense, lying to the police in the course of an investigation is a baaaaaaaaad thing to do.

You never did tell us what jurisdiction you are in. But regardless, a lawyer is the person to ask about something like this. And for heaven's sake, don't put together a plan like this ever again unless you DO get legal advice. Better yet, never put together a plan like this again period.

IANAL, but I think that last is just common sense.

Springmom

Socrates
September 20, 2006, 10:25 PM
Some states do have such laws as it's against the law to conspire to commit murder. Often used against the mob. Isn't that what you just did, and then put on the internet?

A good DA would have you all in jail, getting one to turn on the other, in minutes, if this is the level of intelligence you show, by discussing it on the net...


S

FirstFreedom
September 20, 2006, 10:36 PM
Bartonkj, springmom, capn charlie, and JohnKSa posts are most helpful.

Two questions: Is it illegal, and would you actually be convicted. Two separate questions. Is it illegal? Yes, what you described is premeditated, cold-blooded murder, for which you could be put to death in some states, had you been 'successful', and the TRUE FACTS ever came out, and were provable in court. UNLESS he had a gun pointed at you immediately upon entering, AND you *actually* feared for life or limb, AND you live in a make my day law state.

Would you actually be convicted? That depends on many many factors, most notably of which are (a) whether your state has a so-called "Make My Day" law, and (b) to a lesser extent, whether your state has a Castle Doctrine law (15 do now). But it's also going to depend on who did the shooting, you or your friend, since the make my day law, if present, wouldn't apply to YOU. Also depends on whether you're WILLING to lie when you are questioned, as to what actually happened. Also on how GOOD of a liar you are. Also, on the attitude of the investigator and the (possibly intentional) lack of detail on the report. Also on the general political and personal attitudes and beliefs of the District Attorney for your county (which in turn depends on the general pro- or anti-defense and pro- or anti-gun attitude of the folks in the state and county you live in. Also on whether the guy was in fact armed, whether you claim you saw a weapon or what you thought was a weapon. How big and mean and scary he was. Whether the deceased actually had a criminal record, and of what and to what extent. Also, whether you told anyone of your intent who is NOT a good liar, or not willing to lie, and whether such a person is every questioned or comes forward, and whether upon investigation, the cop finds this thread by you on this site from your history on your computer. And on and on and on and on....

Bottom line, in a make-my-day-law-state, chances are excellent that y'all would get away with the murder, for better or worse, IF it was your friend pulling the trigger; not you. That law only applies if the shooter/defender is in HIS OWN house/homestead. Waiting til they get through the frame is outstanding advice, because being inSIDE the home is the key to having the make-my-day-law burden-of-proof shift in your favor. Don't shoot in the back either.

P.S. The fact that the door is locked or unlocked makes very little difference, except to the extent that the intentional unlocking can be used to prove your state of mind as to malice aforethought for that element of murder. A "breaking" (as in "breaking and entering") can occur by the perpetrator just by opening the door using the knob, which can in turn kick in the make my day law. Forcing a door open by breaking a locking mechanism is NOT required to meet the element of breaking in a B&E.
Socrates, lol, that description of that lady reminds me of the "black man's kryptonite" or "white she devil" in "Undercover Brother" - Denise Richards in a white skin-tight leather suit.

Socrates
September 20, 2006, 11:25 PM
FF:
Excellent post.

In Louisiana, you can shoot a police officer on your property, and, since they KNOW they are not supposed to be there, without your permission, it's a justifiable shooting, or was last time I checked. Katrina may have changed that, a bit. In fact, shooting ANYONE on your property was legal.

That's the extreme.

By the way, at one time, I was dating Miss March, 1988, or so, Diane Hsu Lee. She was drop dead gorgeous in person,
and while a tomboy, well, she wasn't put together like a boy. It was my stupid suggestion that she give up modern dance, and go be a Playboy bunny. Well, she did...:mad: :eek: :( And, she married the photographer, who then dumped her.

This woman was also oriental, had long black hair, a perfect, extremely well endowed, atheletic police officer body, in skin tight stuff she wore in SF. I found her picture. It was in the dictionary, right next to entrapment;) She was to die for, or, for most, go to jail for...:D I see a woman in the same category about once every 5 years...

Much better to discuss then conspiring to commit murder, or really, considering it, and posting it on the internet...

S

Fn-P9
September 20, 2006, 11:38 PM
This post seems kinda funny. Not so much haha but seems that this guys girls was "probably" in "possible" grave bodily harm. Guy rattling the door knob unanounced. IMHO it does seem kinda screwy to be hiding the bushing at the normal time of his arrival but again what else to do. My point is here:All of us seem concerned for the posters freedom but what about this scumbag. Personally Id feel way better he getting knocked off. Seeing that then he wont bother me or anyone else. I'd take a shovel and whack his man hood off. lol

Jason607
September 21, 2006, 12:19 AM
OK, I see where everyone thinks I was planning an ambush, I never said that. That wasn't the plan, but we realized dealing with a crazy person, that could happen. We were ready if he came charging in the door to use deadly force. We stayed out of sight and one near each door. The idea was to protect her and catch him in the act. If he comes through the door and charges one of us, then what? If he opened a door, or tried the door, he might get held gunpoint, probally beaten by the girls husband, but if he opens the door, sees one of us and procedes to charge, that would be threatening our lives. If he came in and proceded to try to rape my buddy's wife, what were we suposed to do, allow it because we have no right since we didn't give fair warning that she wasn't alone?

We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not.

Once again, I never said the idea was to kill him, but to catch him in the act. I'm know that you can't expect normal reactions out of crazy people. No doubt he would have some weapon on him, and if he saw he just got caught, knowing what happens to second offence (maby it was third or more, we don't know) that he's going away, he might decide to attack us.

So I supose if say someone was stalking your child/wife on the way to work, and the police weren't helping, if you were to follow your wife to work to watch her back, and say that person ran her off the road and proceded to attack her, you can't do anything because it would be premeditated?

Axion
September 21, 2006, 02:16 AM
Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers

Are you sure? I just ask because cops can legally do things citizens can't and I have a strong feeling that if it came out that you (a normal citizen) baited someone ino your house and then had to kill them because they became a threat things wouldnt go well in court.

marlboroman84
September 21, 2006, 06:41 AM
What no one here, except for I think one person, has said is it really depends on the cops and the DA. Say you and your buddy had been at the house and it's well documented through police reports of a CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER trying the doors to get into the home when he thinks the female is alone. Now you and your buddy are sitting at the kitchen table chatting and all of a sudden a strange man walks in the door! Your buddy pulls his firearm and commands the man to leave. The man fails to comply, your friend orders again and the man advances towards him. Shots are fired, police and a defense lawyer are called. If I was a cop or DA that's clear cut self defense in most places. If I were the investigating officer I'd chalk it up to one less psycho on the street to victimize women. All that being said, it is true the more people in on the fact that it was definitely a possibility to shoot the guy, makes it real easy for some self-righteous DA or detective to make a name for himself. I personally think it should be legal to shoot rapists and child molesters if they even get near a child or woman, but alot of people that make decisions on law disagree with me.

ATW525
September 21, 2006, 07:12 AM
Are you sure? I just ask because cops can legally do things citizens can't and I have a strong feeling that if it came out that you (a normal citizen) baited someone ino your house and then had to kill them because they became a threat things wouldnt go well in court.

How is his buddy's wife coming home from work "baiting someone into his house"? The only thing they did diffferently from her usual routine (besides being there) was leaving a door unlocked. The potential rapist would have no idea the door was unlocked until he was already determined to commit a crime and attempted to enter the house.

PythonGuy
September 21, 2006, 07:20 AM
You could bait and then trap the guy using non-lethal force, shooting him after setting a trap will get you manslaughter at best, murder at worst. If you can handle the consequences of 10 to life in jail that's on you, you might get less time robbing a bank but you're not going to do that, I hope.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 08:06 AM
On day she typically came home alone, we got to the house a lot earlier but parked way down the street. Came through the back way through the back door. She got home, but it looked like she was the only one there. We hid so we couldn't be seen from the windows, but she could. She sat on the couch where she usually did and we waited, but this time, we left the side door unlocked. If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt. He never came. Either he was that good of a stalker, or had given up, right when we were fed up.

Everything about this original post says "TRAP". And it says you intended to kill him if he got in your trap. A prosecutor would eat you alive on it.

bartonkj
September 21, 2006, 08:59 AM
Jason607:
I don't belive this can be compared to the rigged shotgun, or even the store owner setting a trap.

Yes it can - and would.

Jason607:
OK, I see where everyone thinks I was planning an ambush, I never said that. That wasn't the plan.... We stayed out of sight and one near each door.

Sounds exactly like an ambush to me.

Now don't get me wrong - I have no problem with the idea of taking someone out who is unlawfully in your home. That's why I love the new trend for castle doctrine laws and better yet - Florida's new law. However, the thread as you started it was asking about the legality of the situation. There is a difference between what the law says you can do and what many people think should be allowed.

03Shadowbob
September 21, 2006, 01:11 PM
Wow, first off, that is pretty scary for any female to go through and action needs to be taken. If you think the action needed is to train her in firearms, karate, etc. then good luck with that. However, where I come from and how we were raised should that happen to family, we would take a different type of action.

reils49
September 21, 2006, 01:41 PM
I say too bad the perv didnt show up! Had it been my wife/house, and he showed up he wouldve been met with a few buckshot loads to the chest. Sounds legal to me as long as hes inside the house. I dont think there is a law requiring that you lock your door either.

Mikeyboy
September 21, 2006, 03:09 PM
Jason...the guy is definately good. I would bet he was watching the house when you were setting up the trap. Hopefully he got the hint and moved on unfortunately to prey on another victim. If he is still around, definately talk to the police about what steps you need to take to get a restraining order against the guy. This way if he is near her the Police have more ammo to actually take action against the guy. If you cannot get a restraining order. I would very gingerly ask that you take the advice from Guntotin Fool. I did it once to a older guy who was stalking my younger brother's girlfriend. He would follow her everywhere. I caught the guy sitting in his car across from our house when the girlfriend was over. I walked up to the car and tapped on the window. The guy rolled it down and I simply said," If someone was to hurt my family or friends, I would kill them slow, burn their house down along with anyone living in it." The guy was trying to say something, but I didn't listen I just walked away and walked into my house. I think he got the hint because I never seen him again. Notice, he did not really know who I was, and I never made a direct threat, I just simply made a statement and walked away.

Samurai
September 21, 2006, 03:16 PM
Yeah, buddy. You DID make a direct threat. And, if the cops had been called, and you had been found to have been carrying, you would have been prosecuted for aggravated assault. (You probably would have gotten off of the charge, but still...)

Glad it worked out for you, but I still wouldn't recommend it to others...

Jason607
September 21, 2006, 04:14 PM
yeah, really, there is no law about locking the doors. There is also no law stating that a male has to make his presence known. I think some people are sick to say that a girl home alone, or just appearing that way, is bait. I live in Georgia, and this happened walking distance where that man was gunned down by the good semaritian who chased the thug down when he carjacked the lady. When he wrecked the car, he jumped out, tried to run, the good semaritian got out of his truck, and put a few in him killing him. No charges were filed.

It is really sad we live in a country where sex offenders are allow to live in the same communities as everyone else. Most sex offenders did it many times before they got caught, and most of them offend again, but get away with it many, many times before they are caught again.

DonR101395
September 21, 2006, 04:26 PM
You're asking legal advice on an internet forum?? Remember you get what you pay for.

Socrates
September 21, 2006, 05:46 PM
"We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not."

Any witnesses who could ID this guy? Did anyone actually see him?

Some police don't want to do the paperwork of reporting something, when they know they can't solve it. Problem is, you need the evidence that you reported it.

Glad the guy moved on, and you and yours are safe.

S

James K
September 21, 2006, 05:57 PM
Well, NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE on here, even an attorney, is qualified to give legal advice on what amounts to a "what if" situation.

So I can't and won't give advice. But I will say that if I planned to lay in wait for someone and blow him away, I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T TELL THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!

Anyone who really thinks he is totally anonymous on here or on any site is in cloudcuckooland.

Jim

Socrates
September 21, 2006, 06:00 PM
Well Jim, the good news is judging from the response they got from their police and DA, nothing much is likely to happen, but, I agree.

To take it one step further, you better hire that lawyer, first, to establish client attorney privilidge.

S
PS
Also keep in mind that any advice is general, unless the attorney is familiar with your state, your county, and police.

Glockamolie
September 21, 2006, 06:52 PM
I just started reading this thread, and stopped when I got to Capt Charlie. He said it pretty much the way I would have. Merely affording the opportunity for someone to commit a crime is not entrapment, much like the hooker bait scenario. I believe the same goes for the situation presented by the original post. It's what you do after someone commits or attempts a criminal act that will dictate the future. If it can be proven that you went into this planning to use deadly force, then you'll have a problem.

Jason607
September 21, 2006, 07:11 PM
I guess by owning a firearm, you are planning to use deadly force. If people can be prosecuted upon that, then might as well rip up the second admendment and dispose of our weapons because by owning them, you are planning to commit murder. Georgia Law sates that once they are in the house, it is self defence, becaues that in itself is threatening your life. The person entering the house is commiting a felony.

This happened several years ago. I am not worried about some officer tracking my ISP number and comming and busting me, because for what? You can't name the time, place, or who all was involved. Maby I'm making it all up, nobody can prove one way or another. It wouldn't suprise me, a freind of mine rode an ATV on a construction site and got 90 days for tresspassing. There were lots of dirthills, which all that land was re-bulldozed. A patrollman saw him, and asked him to come over, he did, and the officer did a felony stop on him, arrested him, and the judge said he commited a terrible crime. He didn't damage anything, or litter, nothing, but because he was on some contractors property, he went down. Car thieves don't get 90 days.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 09:51 PM
I guess by owning a firearm, you are planning to use deadly force. If people can be prosecuted upon that

No, being prepaired for a risk is differant than planing.

DonR101395
September 21, 2006, 10:14 PM
I guess by owning a firearm, you are planning to use deadly force. If people can be prosecuted upon that, then might as well rip up the second admendment and dispose of our weapons because by owning them, you are planning to commit murder. Georgia Law sates that once they are in the house, it is self defence, becaues that in itself is threatening your life. The person entering the house is commiting a felony.


Owning a firearm and preparing for self defense are not illegal.
Planning and luring someone inside is premeditated murder.
If you're sure you're doing nothing illegal or wrong, go to the worst part of Atlanta you can find and hang a $100 bill out of your pocket and wait for someone to try to mug you, then shoot them and tell the cops that you baited them into mugging you with the $100 bill and then shot them. See if they give you a pat on the back and send you on your way.
I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself, your girlfriend or anyone else. All I'm saying is that you need to be smarter than trying to bait someone then post it on the internet.


This happened several years ago. I am not worried about some officer tracking my ISP number and comming and busting me, because for what? You can't name the time, place, or who all was involved. Maby I'm making it all up, nobody can prove one way or another. It wouldn't suprise me, a freind of mine rode an ATV on a construction site and got 90 days for tresspassing. There were lots of dirthills, which all that land was re-bulldozed. A patrollman saw him, and asked him to come over, he did, and the officer did a felony stop on him, arrested him, and the judge said he commited a terrible crime. He didn't damage anything, or litter, nothing, but because he was on some contractors property, he went down. Car thieves don't get 90 days.

It appears as though he was tresspassing and got caught. Looks like the judge didn't like tresspassing and gave him a stiff sentence. As long as it was within the law that's his perogative. He "went down" because he was tresspassing. I guess it's a good thing you weren't the property owner or you would have baited him back, laid in wait so you could shoot him.

guntotin_fool
September 21, 2006, 11:24 PM
I wish to restate a few statements from my previous post.


First of all. Prosecution and the risk of prosecution rest SOLELY on the shoulders of the presiding Prosecuting atty. Whether this is the county, district, states Atty it does not matter, It is their choice to make the decision. I have to say, that any (previously clean) homeowner who shot and killed a registered sex offender (of whom they had previously complained was bothering their wife) inside their home, would never be charged by an elected official in today's world. Protecting or defending a sex offender is political suicide. The odds are you could shoot and kill him in your drive way if he had his zipper down saying he was threatening your wife.


RE the conversation. That is not assault. It is a scenario being described to someone over a beer. Most of these guys are complete cowards, which is why they are attacking women. It is the only way they have of making themselves feel powerful. I have never said that I would harm the individual, only that if something happened to my wife or my cousin. I would take the person who did that and then described in detail what I would do to them. I let them make the association that it applied to them.
Whether it was fully legal or PC, it is the most effective way I have found to discourage this form of filth. The individual who was bothering my cousin I followed him to a bar and walked in and had a quiet and private conversation and then left, this left him no outlet. He had no prep time or ability to set a wire or what ever.

The dirt bag who was bothering my wife, I waited for him the parking lot of his office, simply drove up behind him in parking lot and talked to him, again no warning, which is part of the idea, to let them know you know where they work, and laid down the law. If my wife ever saw him again or he ever contacted her again, he would disappear. No one would ever know what happened to him and no one would care, because anyone who cared about him, would be in the same foundation as he was. No hysterics, no drama, just factual description. Asked him if he had any idea how long a human body took to grind up in a redimix truck. He quit his job and moved two days later. That occasion I made threats and do not care, I stood in front of 400 people and said I would protect her above all else, I plan on keeping that promise.

garryc
September 21, 2006, 11:35 PM
guntotin_fool I gotta tell ya. If someone hurts someone I love I'm not going to be the guy in the court room who tells him what a bad man he is. I'm the guy 300yrds away sticking a bullet from a 300mag in his ear.

Jason607
September 22, 2006, 01:16 AM
"Planning and luring someone inside is premeditated murder."

So your saying that a girl home alone is a lure? A girl home alone is a girl home alone. To lure him inside, well I guess if she got in a Victoria Secret teddie and paraded in front of an open door and blowing kisses at him, that would be a lure. She did nothing different than any other day, the difference was that three guys were home that was not obvious. I guess I'll go out and get a neon sign that says "The Man in the House is: IN/OUT and be sure to hit the switch to out whenever I leave, and the switch to in when I am there.

bartonkj
September 22, 2006, 09:49 AM
So your saying that a girl home alone is a lure? * * * I guess I'll go out and get a neon sign that says "The Man in the House is: IN/OUT and be sure to hit the switch to out whenever I leave, and the switch to in when I am there.

I believe you are focusing on the wrong things. You must remember the law is not always intuitive. The law is sometimes very complex and sometimes goes against what the average person thinks should be allowed (or not allowed).

You asked about the legality of your action/plan - you did not ask about the morality of your action/plan.

Posting on a message board isn't always the easiest way to discuss subtle nuances in complex subjects. I think there is enough good information in this thread to help you understand, but that understanding hasn't happened yet. I'm not making disparaging remarks about your intelligence or ability to understand this discussion - simply recognizing that it can be tough to pick up the knowledge and understanding in this format.

What I think you might be misunderstanding is the only difference between murder and self-defense is STATE OF MIND!

1) There is nothing wrong with her being home alone or with someone else there. You parking down the street this 1 time (i.e., you didn't always park down the street away from the residence) however, was a clear act to MISLEAD the BG.
2) She normally locked the door. There is nothing wrong with leaving your door locked or unlocked (this does not affect the nature of the crime a BG commits by entering a residence without permission) - however, you INTENTIONALLY left it unlocked that day in the HOPE that he would try to enter the residence.
3) You don't need to advertise your presence or location in a residence however, you ANTICIPATED him entering the residence and specifically hid in a location to cover the entrances to the residence and PLANNED how to act once he entered the residence. This was an INTENTIONAL act of laying in wait.

Your STATE OF MIND at the time this happened would not have supported a clear justification of self-defense.

IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO YOUR STATE OF MIND AND THE FACT THAT YOU PLANNED VERY SPECIFIC ACTIONS TO INCREASE THE CHANCE OF A CERTAIN EVENT TO HAPPEN.

The same exact facts could result in a very different outcome if the reasons for it were different.

FOR EXAMPLE
1) parking down the street - lets say the reason you parked down the street was that they were working on the street in front of the residence when you got there.

2) leaving the door unlocked - lets say you normally left the door unlocked when home in the day or that you accidentally lef the door unlocked.

3) hiding by the door - lets say you were playing hide and seek with your friends or there were kids in the house you were playing with, etc....

4) BG entering house - lets say that while you were playing hide and seek and hiding by the door the BG walks into the house - you know who he is, you know he shouldn't be there, you know the history of his trying to get at the girl, etc....

5) you detain BG - lets say you pull your gun and you detain him and call the police, then he tries to lunge at you or make some other reasonable threat against you - you shoot him and kill him.

This fact situation would be JUSTIFIABLE SELF-DEFENSE!!!! Almost the same facts (parking down the street, leaving the door unlocked, being hidden by the door, etc...) but the reasons (i.e., STATE OF MIND) for how those things happened are very different.


I hope this explanation helps you to understand why there is a difference between what you planned and a valid self-defense situation

DonR101395
September 22, 2006, 10:18 AM
So your saying that a girl home alone is a lure? A girl home alone is a girl home alone. To lure him inside, well I guess if she got in a Victoria Secret teddie and paraded in front of an open door and blowing kisses at him, that would be a lure. She did nothing different than any other day, the difference was that three guys were home that was not obvious. I guess I'll go out and get a neon sign that says "The Man in the House is: IN/OUT and be sure to hit the switch to out whenever I leave, and the switch to in when I am there.

No, I'm saying that setting a trap in your home and then discussing it on the internet is not the best approach I've seen. If you're gonna do it, just do it and don't talk about it on the internet. It's akin to booby trapping your home or something out of a bad lifetime channel movie.

+1
What I think you might be misunderstanding is the only difference between murder and self-defense is STATE OF MIND!

Mikeyboy
September 22, 2006, 10:51 AM
I deal with civil court cases all the time for work and there are cases that are drop dead winners, drop dead losers and the Gray ones that can go either way. This is a perfect example of a gray area where a jury of 12 will either find you guilty of Murder or find you completely innocent.

In regards to the entrapment issue let me ask you this, can a Hooker get raped by her client? Sure she can, but its harder to prove than a regular rape case. What is the difference between this guy laying in wait for a rapist to break in, and some paranoid guy who every night falls asleep on the couch with a gun in his hand waiting for a bugular to break in. What's the difference if let us say you wake up one morning, and your wife rolls over and says," honey I don't feel safe today, because of that stalker guy, can you take the day off and stay with me." If you call out of work are you now Lying in Wait? If you hired an armed security guard to sit with your wife, is he laying in wait?What I'm saying is this, it is not cut and dry. Everyone is playing armchair attorney and there is no correct answer. There is not law that I know of that spells out specifically what you did, unless this has not come up in some case before, it will be debatable in a court of law. This is how case law is born.

My personal opinion is criminally you did nothing wrong, in a civil court however this guy's family MIGHT have a case. Its my opinion...I'm not an attorney...and this is the Internet:D

booby trapping your home or something out of a bad lifetime channel movie.

Ironically, setting up a physical booby trap, made to injure or kill is illegal.

DonR101395
September 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
+1 Mike,
You expressed it better than I did.
It's not cut and dry, and it would be at the whim of the jury.
Personally, I don't think what he did is wrong, I just wouldn't discuss it on the internet.
Especially calling it a "rape trap", sounds a lot like the definition of a booby trap which is illegal.


booby trap 
1. a hidden bomb or mine so placed that it will be set off by an unsuspecting person through such means as moving an apparently harmless object.
2. any hidden trap set for an unsuspecting person.

garryc
September 22, 2006, 11:23 AM
the best tactic is still to have that woman take responcibility for her own saftey. When I really think beyond a viseral reaction I come up with no pity for someone playing the helpless/victim routine and wanting or expecting others to provide a sheild from the bad things in the world.

pax
September 22, 2006, 12:01 PM
Jason ~

Did your friend talk to the cops himself after they interviewed the sex offender?

pax

Jason607
September 22, 2006, 04:26 PM
Yes he did. The cop thought he was very suspicious. He had said he wished there was something he could do. He was a verteran officer, who really seemed to care. Another fact, the guy had moved in there only about a month before all this happened. After my buddy and his wife moved, there was that rape case, but we can't find out exactly what happened to it all.

It wasn't the only time we parked down the street and walked. The only proof the door is always locked, well if the rapist survived, what good would his word be in court "the other nine nights that door was locked". One of the ideas of leaving the door unlocked, was to see if it was some brat playing games, or if this person was serious. If he entered the house, that would prove the intent. In Georgia, you don't have to give someone the chance to surrender. I know in some states, you only have the right to defend yourself with lethal force if your life is in danger, in Georgia, only the treat has to be made. I am not waiting until they prove thier intent, because then the chance to defend myself won't be there.

Glockamolie
September 22, 2006, 09:10 PM
If she's at hot as you're describing, it may very well have been a booby trap. I'm outta here! :D

azurefly
September 23, 2006, 12:01 AM
That isn't what matters. Leaving the door unlocked on purpose is could be construed as premediation.


Leaving a door unlocked is now criminal? :rolleyes:

The fact remains that the only difference between a situation in which these "protectors" happened to be at the house when some intruder broke in to rape the woman, and what they had orchestrated, is the knowledge that it was not unlikely for this guy to come around trying the door. What you are saying is that their forewarning of what might happen somehow criminalizes the idea of being prepared to use a firearm in defense against a forcible felony (rape).

Sorry, that doesn't wash with me. I don't have to have double-bolted the doors and windows of my home to be justified in shooting someone who comes in uninvited and appears to present a threat (to me or others). So a door left unlocked shouldn't matter: the intruder came in with the intention of committing a violent crime. No one forced him to take what some of you here are calling the "bait". She is no more "bait" than she would be if they were all just sitting around innocently and the same guy came to attempt his crime and they shot him then.


-azurefly

Glockamolie
September 23, 2006, 12:11 AM
Agreed. As I said at the top of this page, merely affording the opportunity isn't entrapment (or setting a trap).

azurefly
September 23, 2006, 12:13 AM
the best tactic is still to have that woman take responcibility for her own saftey. When I really think beyond a viseral reaction I come up with no pity for someone playing the helpless/victim routine and wanting or expecting others to provide a sheild from the bad things in the world.


I do agree with this. After all, it's the shooter, not the helpless damsel, who will be answering for the shooting in court, and possibly losing his freedom and fortune in the process. And for what? Because someone's notion was that it remains the duty of a man to protect a woman who -- even when a potential threat is known to be lurking -- won't protect herself?

I am having to deal with this very sort of problem with my girlfriend. She told me a story the other day about how, while I was away last week, a group of five hispanic males (this being south Florida) blocked her path with their bicycles on a sidewalk where she was riding. Two ended up behind her, and three were still in front of her, essentially neglecting to move. She told me that she ended up saying, "*blanking* MOVE -- NOW!" And they did! This was after dark, on a street that parallels the Intracoastal Waterway in West Palm Beach.

I did not go off on a diatribe with my girlfriend, who is sorta phobic about my guns. (Twice we tried unsuccessfully to have her learn to shoot at a range here. She just "couldn't do it." :( ) In the back of my mind, I made a note to continue to gradually increase pressure for her to take responsibility for herself when it comes to defending herself against rapists and other violent scumbags. At this point, she has had several scares (some were at a school where she taught mainly minority, at-risk, mainstream school rejects). Several times, she has come to me and said something about wanting to get herself a gun for protection. I was fully cooperative and encouraging each time -- but have since come to understand that she is "crying wolf" when she says this.

I would like nothing more than for my girlfriend to come around to my "the world can be a tough place and you owe it to yourself to be ready to fight back" mentality, but as much as I regret having to say it, she seems like the type who may have to suffer badly before she makes the true realization and does something about it. And she may even, sadly, be the type who wouldn't even learn the lesson then. When she's with me, I stand ready to protect both her and me; but I have had to come to terms with the fact that when she is alone, if she gets harmed by someone she might otherwise have been able to fight off (if she'd heeded my advice), it will be her own fault and I will not feel guilt for it. Anger, yes, but not guilt. You can lead a horse to water...

-azurefly

Kruniac
October 17, 2006, 07:26 PM
Too easy to get out of. Do the deed, and then the story is "This dude just busts in, and I had to stop him. My friend has been having trouble with this wierdo guy that has been following her, and we've been pretty shook up. He just busted in, so I stopped him with my weapon."

They'll want specifics, and just remember - the guy busted into the house, shes been having issues with some wierdo following her, you were just visiting.

revjen45
October 19, 2006, 08:06 PM
If you shoot well, it's your word against that of a corpse with a record of sexual assaults. On the other hand deciding ahead of time that you will kill the bastard no matter what constitutes malicious aforethought. Tell the cops you have nothing to say in the absence of legal counsel. What's good enough for them is good enough for you. Just be glad it didn't come down to a shooting situation.

Dr. Courtney
October 19, 2006, 11:03 PM
When you stop dealing with how to defend yourself against crime or criminals and go to planning how to end the life of a specific criminal that gets very touchy, IMO.

As long as whether or not the plan is enacted remains conditional upon the future behavior of the specific criminal (whether he does anything to justify deadly force), planning the possible/contigent self-defense shooting of a specific criminal shouldn't be a problem.

Consider an estranged wife/girlfriend with a physically abusive former husband/boyfriend who has threatened to kill her if she left him. A woman in this situation usually obtains a restraining order and if she decides she needs to carry a gun, she's really only got in mind one potential attacker.

However, as long as she only plans to use the gun in self-defense if and when the abusive ex gives her cause to be in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, then she is neither legally nor morally culpable in his demise, should it come to that.

Now, regarding the case in question, a pretty woman certainly has the right to come and go from her own home as she pleases, to defend herself against perverts, and to enlist the aid of friends in her defensive efforts. Conspiracy to commit justified self-defense is not a crime if the shoot itself is a good shoot. And "reasonableness" in such cases is ultimately up to a jury, not to the investigating officers, prosecutors, or judges.

However, if the criminal suspect has been positively identified and has previous sex convictions, the best approach would be to obtain a restraining order. That way, if the pervert ends up getting shot in her house, the defense against possible criminal charges is much more solid.

Michael Courtney

tanksoldier
October 20, 2006, 03:44 AM
Intentionally leaving the door unlocked, with the INTENT that someone will walk in so you can shoot them MAY be illegal.

From my criminal justice classes INTENT often is the difference in wherether something is a crime or not.

Having said that, the sillyest part of the whole thing is posting your intent on the internet.


Leaving a door unlocked is now criminal?

Samurai
October 20, 2006, 08:52 AM
This is one of those instances where there is a contrast between what is "legal" versus what you "can get away with." If you kill the only other witness, then you can probably lie and say that you did not set out with the premeditated and deliberated intent to set a trap and kill the guy. The cops will probably believe you, because you're the only one left to tell the story.

But, the fact is, you would have set out with the premeditated and deliberated intent to set a trap and kill the guy. And, that's first degree murder (most places). In effect, you'd get away with it, but you'd be getting away with murder.

Time to ask yourself what kind of person you really are.

Eghad
October 20, 2006, 09:40 AM
If you detain him for police, using only the minimum amount of force necessary to accomplish that, there shouldn't be a problem. But if you kill him, and investigation reveals you had that planned the whole time, you are most definitely looking at a charge of premeditated murder.

Im with the Captain on this one.

revjen45
October 22, 2006, 10:45 AM
A long time friend bought a .38 revolver after some thought and took training from one of the recognized school in WA State. At 40 she is one of the two lovliest women I have ever seen and a mechanical engineer (indicating that she is not just a buxom bimbo). She went about the acquisition of a defensive piece and learning to use it with a well thought out plan after some advice from me. (I am an NRA Certified instructor and have 2 degrees in Gunsmithing, so I am in a position to offer input.) She has the mindset to defend her life if SHTF, and God help the Bozo who doesn't realize this until it's too late. Another lady I worked with carried a small .357 everywhere (including to work where carry is cause to terminate) because an abusive ex-husband slammed her into a wall so hard it caused a shoulder separation, and she said "never again." It would be great if every lady who posesses the presence of mind to use a firearm (not a sexist remark- lots of males don't either) followed their course of action. Abusing a woman is completely ignoble and unmanly and I can't imagine a nicer thing than the next 50 or so men who attack a woman ending up taking a dirt nap.

BILLDAVE
October 22, 2006, 10:53 AM
You don't have to kill him, just hold him down and cut off his "johnson"!! He'll be harless then. But I also think a face to face talk will work also. Which I think is definatley PC!

claude783
October 22, 2006, 06:45 PM
Many a year ago, when I was much younger, stupid, and yes crazy, I had a dear "girl" friend that had the problem of a pervert in her neighborhood.

Seems she caught him trying to come into the bathroom window when she was showering, also some other problems with the perv. I went over to his house and the discussion went something, like "****" you, etc....not a nice man to try and deal with.

Soooo, somehow an ad ened up in the Sunday Morning paper...Seems someone advertised a Harley Flathead, mint condition, owner needed cash, first $500 would buy it...About 5 a.m. I get a phone call, and Cindy, says "you did something, didn't you". Of course I'm innocent, but she invited me over, fixed me breakfast as we watched "hells' angels" types come to the door, hour after hour. The guy wants to prove how "bad" he is, these were just the right people to talk to...of course many of them were a little disturbed to find out he didn't have the bike "anymore".

And, many of them had just left the bar, high on "God" knows what, to go and see this bike...the early edition of most papers come out about 4 a.m. So, bleary eyed, he answered the door at 5 a.m. and pretended to not know what in heck they were talking about...Cindy mentioned that there was a lot of shouting, screaming, and she thought she heard a couple of "begging" pleas "Don't hurt me, I don't know what's going on!"

On Monday, a U-haul was in his driveway, and by Tuesday, he was gone to parts unknown...as I sat on Cindy's porch waving good by to him!

The above account of my mis-spent youth is purely fiction,,, heh, heh

Running Gunfight
December 17, 2006, 06:39 AM
My advice is that she learn to protect herself.

I always recall the story many years ago about a female deputy who was followed going home in her car one night (obviously not from work or the knuckleheads would have found somebody else--or they saw her in her car and started tailing her without seeing where she came from).

Anyhow, they didn't know she was armed and knew how to use it.

They pulled into her driveway behind her, made an abduction attempt, and were both shot dead. The end.

Daves-got-guns
December 17, 2006, 09:19 AM
you know, with women things can get very very messy indeed, and i would stay the hell out of it honestly. I know its nice to try to stick up for poor defenseless random broad a, and despite what they may say they loooove that kind of deal. I got a couson, whos always gettin herself into some stupid mess, and oddly im never around when the brown stuff hits the fan. If i were to go about such business as you described, including the waiting with the door unlocked approach, i wouldnt have asked even a cop about it, and if such a man came thru the door, i for some reason just had my shotgun fully loaded with 00 buck at her house, and this guy, had maybe a knife on him? or w/e, you catch the drift Honestly, even though they pretty much id'd a documented sex offender, in the same area as all of this you still can't be %100 its not just a cawinkie dink. Also you could try something of the similar measure, but instead of killing him why not take him out back and beat the you know awhat out of him. That method works, as there was a case of a guy harassing the mother of a friend i had, years ago. The guy was a ex b/f trying to steal more crap from the house, and the mothers friends got a hold of the guy in a church parking lot, a block away from the house and 2 blocks away from my house, and beat the guy into the hospital. Imo taking a human life, even a low life like this is something that you may feel you want to do, but after you do it your not gonna feel that great about it, because he was still human.

SD_Chop
December 17, 2006, 09:54 AM
So i have to lock my door to defend myself some are saying? If i leave my door unlock is that "inviting"? I dont get that, why was it said that you left your door unlocked is baiting?? I should be able to leave my house ANY way i want too with whatever girl inside, if someone steps through the door with any intention to do any harm, church is over. I disagree, its not baiting at all. Obviously local LE couldnt do anything about, so what was it gonna take?? For the guy to catch the girl, rape and possibly kill her? Would that be enough for someone to take action?

jhenry
December 17, 2006, 10:50 AM
It really comes down to three things. 1. it is not legal to bait humans in order to hurt or kill them 2. it is OK to use deadly force to stop the immediate threat of death or great bodily harm 3. never post what you intend to do along these lines on the internet, this is not a private forum, authorities seize computers on a regular basis during investigations.

I hope the young lady remains safe and secure and that no drastic action is ever needed to accomplish this.

FLA2760
December 17, 2006, 08:50 PM
Have the woman get training and arm herself. Print up flyers about the SOB so all the other people living near this guy are aware a registered sex offender is in their neighborhood.

Daves-got-guns
December 17, 2006, 09:34 PM
also get a damn mean guard dog. I know why people think its baiting, because he said ok were gonna wait for him to come thru, and shoot him down. It sounds like oh i just want to kill somebody, but thats not the intent. Obviously, besides the fact of retalliation, you could confront the guy and do your damndest scare off tactic, but that probably won't do. Also he seems clever, or you guys were clunky in your attempt to conceal in her house. If it still persists, have a couple people over one night, and then have everybodys cars leave, and just one or maybe 2 of you stay in her house hidden. If you have enough people over the guys not gonna be able to count how many people came in and how many people left. But like i said i wouldnt get involved in this, because sure a woman needs some protecting sometime, but if she isnt pro-active in the self preservation of her own life, and is depended on every body else, then she'll get some other form of damage to her in another aspect of life.

tanksoldier
December 17, 2006, 09:47 PM
There is a difference between your door simply being unlocked, and leaving your door unlocked with the hope that someone will walk thru it so you can shoot them.

More to the point, there's a difference between planning for this to happen and keeping your mouth shut... and posting your intentions all over the internet.


If i leave my door unlock is that "inviting"? I dont get that, why was it said that you left your door unlocked is baiting??

billydiesel
December 18, 2006, 07:11 AM
That seems wrong, if that is baiting then I have been doing it for ten years because I have no keys to my house. So it is never locked. But my family is very familiar with firearms and not afraid to use them. Someone is almost always here and I have two pitbulls when were not. Is that baiting?

gvf
December 18, 2006, 08:38 AM
I think if you create a situation where you will be "justified" in killing someone, it is murder, though experts in law and criminal justice are the ones to talk to.

It's the job of police, overwatched by the courts who protect people's constitutional rights (and who decide innocence and guilt, probable cause etc.), to set traps, lie in wait, and carry weapons for offensive purposes. Leave it to them.

You have, in any case, picked the worst place in the world to even fantasize about actions that may be criminal: a public forum on the internet, probably from your own home computer with its always-traceable hard drive. Go and talk, in private, to experts who can have legally priveleged communications with you. And in the meantime, refrain from violent action and speech at all costs as you are now a sitting duck; my advice anyway.....

billydiesel
December 18, 2006, 11:32 AM
I apologize if that seems wrong, but it is not a trap. If you had a friend that was being threatened, and you offered to keep them company, whether the door is locked or not, self defense is self defense. I am not saying shoot anyone who comes through the door. But you can defend yourself if an unwanted guest becomes an attacker. I don't ever want to shoot first unless forced to, and if I can rectify the situation without violence I will.
but an unlocked door does not mean come do as you will. I don't think the intent was murder as much as it was getting the situation over with. Until you have been harassed that way, you can't judge someones reaction. And as I have said, unless the situation becomes violent, there is no need for deadly force. Many times the fact of knowing she is not alone can put an uncertainty in the stalker, and maybe end the scenario. The main thing is that locked door or not, if you are in danger, you are in danger!!

Samurai
December 18, 2006, 12:07 PM
It's a trap, because he SAYS it's a trap. It's not a trap to, as you say, offer to keep a scared friend "company." But, it IS a trap to:

1. Recognize that if you leave the door unlocked, a person will very likely break in;
2. Decide you'd like to kill that person;
3. Leave the door unlocked, so that that person will likely come in the house;
4. Wait inside with a loaded gun, thinking to yourself "Gee, I hope they come in, so that I can shoot them";
5. Shoot the person dead when the finally come in; and
6. Go back afterward and tell the cops that it was "self-defense" ("Self-defense" means that you were in an "unprovoked" attack where you were "in fear for your life.")

No, I'm sorry. If you're in fear for your life, and you know ahead of time that the attack is coming, you lock the door, or you try to get away. If you sit there, waiting and hoping that it will happen, you're not in fear for your life sufficient to evoke self-defense. And, if you shoot someone and you're not in fear for your life, it DOESN'T MATTER whether they are trying to break into your house! It's MURDER, unless you're in fear for your life.

dave421
December 18, 2006, 02:15 PM
In NC, that's first degree murder. It's PLANNED. There's a huge difference in sitting around with a friend with a door unlocked and trying to trick someone into thinking that nobody is home and hoping they come in while you lie in wait. If your INTENT is to protect someone, then do so, get them armed and trained and help them protect themselves. If your INTENT is to rid the world of a criminal by ambush, it's first degree murder. I don't get how people can't see the difference. Police can't trick you into doing something (ever hear of entrapment) and you can't either. That's basically what the situation sounds like to me.

ATW525
December 18, 2006, 02:37 PM
Police can't trick you into doing something (ever hear of entrapment) and you can't either.

Leaving the door unlocked is not tricking anybody into doing anything. A person taking advantage of unlocked door would not even be aware of the unlocked nature of the door until after they tried to open it. That means the criminal has already decided to attempt to gain entry into the house of his own free will.

Samurai
December 18, 2006, 03:19 PM
Leaving the door unlocked is not tricking anybody into doing anything. A person taking advantage of unlocked door would not even be aware of the unlocked nature of the door until after they tried to open it. That means the criminal has already decided to attempt to gain entry into the house of his own free will.

Mmmmkay. HERE'S where we have the communication problem. Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM. You ONLY have the right to shoot someone if you are in fear for your life!

Setting an ambush for someone whom you are reasonably certain is going to break into your house is NOT self defense! It's not self defense, because you are not in fear for your life when you set the ambush! At best, all you're doing when you set the ambush is defending your property from invasion, and you're NOT ALLOWED to shoot someone for a property crime!

ATW525, if you insist that it is legal to lie in wait in your friend's house with the door unlocked, I invite you to try it and find out what happens. But, I PROMISE YOU, if you follow the scenario the way it is described in this thread, you WILL GO TO JAIL for the rest of (better part of) your life!!!

ATW525
December 18, 2006, 03:55 PM
Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM.

I don't recall saying anything to that effect. All I said was that leaving the door unlocked was not "tricking" somebody into committing a crime. I don't advocate blowing the guy away just because he gains entry. Personally I believe that lying in wait with a camera would be much more effective than lying in wait with a gun, and it would be a lot less hassle and mess.

Samurai
December 18, 2006, 04:11 PM
Ok, then. It's not "tricking." The legal term for it is "lying in wait." And, it's one of the ways to prove "premeditation and deliberation" sufficient to bump a murder rap up to first-degree murder.

I'm telling you, it's WAY bad to do that...

tanksoldier
December 19, 2006, 03:13 AM
Not so in Colorado.


HERE'S where we have the communication problem. Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM. You ONLY have the right to shoot someone if you are in fear for your life!

gvf
December 19, 2006, 04:19 AM
This is ridiculous. The guy states in his original posting that he helped to create - and then participated in - a plan to attempt to kill his friend's wife's stalker.
The rest is all a contrivance to convince the police he acted in self-defense or defense of the woman. But he didn't, he and the husband-friend placed all three of them in danger so the stalker could be killed and it made to look like an unexpected break-in that they "had" to respond to by killing in SD. It's bunk. And he tells us all this. And he's not even the aggrieved party, or that party's husband, but a friend, wanting to kill the guy nonetheless, just like one of the boys 'round the hangin tree 150 years ago, giving a helpful pull to the noose-rope at the lynchin..

This has nothing to do with Tacticts & Training, proper use of guns or training in self-defense. Enough of this craziness and let's back to our purpose, to learn more about these necessary things.

Capt Charlie
December 19, 2006, 01:03 PM
Very good insight, gvf. I left this one open for two reasons, that members could set the original poster on the right track, and for discussion on the very real problem of defense from sexual predators and stalkers, but I think this one's run its course.

Certainly, continued debate on planning premeditated murder is not in the best interests of TFL, its members, and gunners in general. See my sig line.

My apologies for not realizing this sooner.

Closed.