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View Full Version : Real Life: Girl in Supermarket screams, "I'm being kidnapped!"


Para Bellum
September 4, 2006, 11:57 AM
You might have heared about the recent criminal case in Austria:

8 years ago a man kidnapped a 10 year old girl on her way to school. He kept her in a sound-isolated room for 10 years. Now she managed to escape alive and apparently (physically) unharmed. One of the stunning details is that from time to time he took her to the supermarket etc.

Now imagine: You are shopping and a 10-18 year old woman tells you (shouting or calmly...) that she has actually been kidnapped. What would you do, what could happen then?

Jason607
September 4, 2006, 12:09 PM
Pull out your gun and start shooting everyone one sight!!! :D Just kidding...


No, but you should take it seriously. Even if my child was angry with me, and tried to embarrass me by doing something like tell people she was kidnapped, if someone came to her/his defence, I would honor that good semeritan's actions. No normal child would do this, so if they do, they need psycological help.

What I would do would be to alert someone in the store, ask him/her if they are serious because I am going to call the police, and if they say yes, then the police are called. If the "parents" show up, they arn't going to walk away until the cops get there.

If it turns out the kid just is nuts, there might be a little embarrassment on you part, but just imagine if you let himher go, then on the evening news that child if found in a ditch sexually assulted. I couldn't live with myself.

TxPhantom
September 4, 2006, 12:18 PM
In America someone would at least call 911 and detain the adult with the child until police arrive to sort it out.
In Europe, who knows? Probably nothing. Might make them late to their latest "Hate America Rally".:(

Glenn E. Meyer
September 4, 2006, 01:05 PM
I managed to miss walking in on something like this about 8 years ago. At a nice local hotel, a man tried to kidnap an 8 year old girl by beating her with a tire iron and stuffing her into a duffle bag. She was on her way to the pool. Luckily folks heard the scuffle and saved her. He had a van full of evil things.

Then, some genius let him charge his bail and he disappeared for quite a long time. :eek:

Anyhow, if I ran into something this extreme, I would use all necessary force to stop it.

What about the posted scenario? Just someone coming up to you. My first suggestions:

1. Look for the BG.
2. Start to yell for others to get security and call the police.
3. Tell 'victim' to get on the ground - hard for someone to come up and kidnap someone on the ground while you stand guard.
4. Use your phone and be alert.

Without an obvious foe - you can't shoot everybody. I think you want to call attention to the situation to deter the BG or cause a fraud to flee herself.

My wife and I once found a toddler who wandered out of the supermarket. We took her back to the service desk.

tony pasley
September 4, 2006, 02:57 PM
start calling security and keep everyone focused on what is going on the policewill sort it out when they arrive, also most store have what is called code Adam. weapons should only be seen as the very very last resort

4V50 Gary
September 4, 2006, 03:06 PM
Could be real in which case you feel like crap for not doing anything - especially if she's found dead.

Could be dad taking his naughty daughter home too.

Get the store to intervene. Call 9-11 and let the cops handle it. Liability & lawsuits is a killer today of the American spirit that would normally call us to act. :mad:

Dwight55
September 4, 2006, 03:51 PM
One of the neat things about kids, . . . they make lousy liars (for the most part), . . . and the more serious it is, . . . the worse they are at lying about it.

Knowing this, . . . if a child looked me in the eye and asked for help because they were being kidnapped, . . . OK, . . . put the world on hold until the local PD or someone in authority sorts this out, . . . but for now, . . . the kid belongs to me, . . . period. If it takes a .45 to make that happen, . . . I'll put it away when the LEO folks get there.

Sure, . . . I could get sued, . . . could lose my shirt (its torn anyway), . . . but that doesn't come close to how bad it could become for the child.

When in doubt, . . . I try to err on the side with the least bad consequences, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

ArcherAndShooter
September 4, 2006, 04:00 PM
Nicely put, Dwight. As I once answered to a similar query in an interview situation, I'd rather have egg on my face than blood on my hands.

Jason607
September 4, 2006, 06:57 PM
We live in a very self centered society. We live in a cold society that tells us to keep to ourselves, and mind our own buisness. Those who act are scorned nuts and "vigalanites". The sheep people "sheeple?" will compare someone who stands up, to the lynch mobs. They expect us to run away and call the 911 "dial a prayer" , maby grab a video camera, but NEVER intervien. The more society gets like this, the more confidence the criminals have. It gets a lot worse than that. The "no snitching" campain says not to even say you saw anything. Some places this is deeply inbedded. Those areas have very high crime. In some cities, people are murdered in public and nobody saw it. I don't want to live in a place like that.

v8fbird
September 6, 2006, 01:32 PM
"In Europe, who knows? Probably nothing. Might make them late to their latest "Hate America Rally"."

:rolleyes:

1- The sky is orange.

2- Your mom laid an egg and 9 months later you hatched.

3- Guns create crime.



See, I can fabricate utter nonsense too. Except maybe #2.

v8fbird
September 6, 2006, 01:38 PM
"most store have what is called code Adam"

I just read about that. Sounds fine, except that I can see other people having children that match the description of the missing child. I can see some overzealous "security guard" trying to detain some shady looking -- but innocent -- dad. I don't have kids yet, but if I (1) was with my child, (2) heard that announcement over the speaker and then (3) some claimed-employee tried to physically separate me from my kid, I think I'd put him down.

john in jax
September 6, 2006, 01:51 PM
Ditto on all the great advice above - - do something.

I'm absolutely and positively disgusted with some of the low income urban/ghetto dwellers here in Jacksonville, FL. If you haven't heard Jacksonville is breaking murder records left and right and might soon lead the nation in murders per capita. And the residents in the very neighborhoods it is going down in do nothing.

All these upstanding citizens don't hesitate to get in front of a TV camera DEMANDING that cops/officials do something to stop the crime, but then won't give the police any info at all on who the shooters actually are. There are several cases from this year where there were lots of witnesses, and the witnesses knew who the shooter(s) was but refused to turn over information critical to the investigation. They want the cops/officials to do everything with no help from them - - they do nothing while child after child is gunned down.

If someone needs help . . . do something.

Para Bellum
September 8, 2006, 02:19 PM
I think if no violence is being brought into the situation by others, the best thing to do would be to tell her silently to go on as if nothing happened and that you'd follow her and the suspect, calling the police and keeping contact with the police. If violence comes into play you have to address it anyway.

drawing to soon might put you in an escalated situation you weren't fully aware of. There might be many suspects, even behind you. She might scream "I'm being kidnapped" and others hear that and see you and your gun...and that might lead to good guy shooting good guy for an apparent reason...

This true case was extremely strange and extremely rare. Here are the known fatcs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch

Eightball
September 8, 2006, 02:27 PM
No, but you should take it seriously. Even if my child was angry with me, and tried to embarrass me by doing something like tell people she was kidnapped, if someone came to her/his defence, I would honor that good semeritan's actions. No normal child would do this, so if they do, they need psycological help.Seen it happen. A girl was with her mom at the traffic court, was bored of standing in line for an unholy amount of time, and didn't particularly enjoy her mom's holding of her hand to keep her from running off. The first time she screamed it it was unnerving, the second it was pathetic, the third it was kinda funny........by the 500th, it was just plain annoying.

All these upstanding citizens don't hesitate to get in front of a TV camera DEMANDING that cops/officials do something to stop the crime, but then won't give the police any info at all on who the shooters actually are. There are several cases from this year where there were lots of witnesses, and the witnesses knew who the shooter(s) was but refused to turn over information critical to the investigation. They want the cops/officials to do everything with no help from them - - they do nothing while child after child is gunned down.But, wait.....isn't this how the anti's want upstanding citizens to act? After all, it is the cops "constitutional burdern" to protec the individual's safety.................oh wait............

Dwight55
September 8, 2006, 04:51 PM
Para Bellum wrote: "I think if no violence is being brought into the situation by others, the best thing to do would be to tell her silently to go on as if nothing happened and that you'd follow her and the suspect, . . . "

I think you miss the point, . . . if she is truly being kidnapped, . . . violence has already happened. She is a probable kidnap victim to whom you may be able to provide relief, . . . or by playing it safe, . . . doing nothing, . . . being a good witness, . . . you may be called later to help ID the body.

I have never visited the EU (and probably won't) so I cannot effectively speak about the ease with which one can get lost. I can tell you that where I live, . . . you count the minutes, . . . multiply it by 1 for miles and 2 for km, . . . that's how far I can be away from you if I'm the kidnapper and you allowed me out of your sight.

I stand by my original post, . . . this is a scenario where getting involved actually has very little risk (the percentage chance of multiple armed kidnappers in multiple aisles of WalMart is really not a viable scenairo where I live), . . . and where the payoff to the kid can be very, very great.

May God bless,
Dwight

stephen426
September 8, 2006, 05:53 PM
I have to agree that you have to put everything on hold until things can be sorted out and verified. I really hope that it never comes to pulling a gun to ensure compliance. If it is a busy store, I'm sure (hoping) that enough upstanding citizens will block the alleged kidnapper's escape until the police show. If there are not many people (convenient store scenario), I would try to stop the person.

This is of course based on my judgement of how the "kidnapper" and the child are interacting. If the "kidnapper" is roughing the child up and the child has a genuine look of fear in his or her eyes, I'd stop them for sure. There are so many sickos out there. :barf:

As for the case where a kidnapper took the child to the grocery store, I have heard of that before. It is similar to hostage type situations where they develop some bond and the hostage becomes attached. This should be especially true for children since their minds are more malleable.

tony pasley
September 8, 2006, 08:23 PM
Code Adam helps keep the child for getting out of the store. You want to keep the child in the store and that should keep the child safer. You want to contain until police arrive and take control and can firure it out. I could careless if 10 children who look alike can't leave the store and thier mommy miss her soap operas tuff if the 1 is in danger and kept safe.

pdkflyguy
September 8, 2006, 10:19 PM
I agree with the previous posts that the good samaritans in America have been shamed into hiding by bad judges, and juries filled with idiots. Everyone and their brother is afraid of being sued for anything, even if they are in the right. I know that I myself have not done things that I might have 10 or 15 years ago. I think it's sad, really that in America, we're "Damned if we do and Damned if we don't" by our legal system. I also agree that I'd rather have egg on my face than blood on my hands, but if you're wrong, that's pretty expensive to get the egg off of your face. I'd say that since so many people carry cell phones these days, the best thing to pull out of a holster would be your phone. Call the Police, and let them sort it out.

DietCola
September 8, 2006, 10:39 PM
If the child was not joking (you could tell) I would be calling 911 on my cell phone and keeping the child with me and whoever else was around to help until the cops showed up. Child safety isn't a joke anymore.

joab
September 8, 2006, 11:32 PM
I twas trying to put my thoughts into words ,until I came to Dwight55's post. He nailed it

The kid is not leaving me or the store until someone in authority comes to sort it out.
I will be as polite as possible, but the kid aint leaving

If it were my son and you explained what was going on as calmly as the situation allowed I would go along and appreciate your concern.

Plus I would have the added knowledge that the kid was eventually going to be put back in my custody and the satisfaction of knowing that that thought was beginning to dawn on him too:)

azurefly
September 9, 2006, 12:20 AM
Now imagine: You are shopping and a 10-18 year old woman tells you (shouting or calmly...) that she has actually been kidnapped. What would you do, what could happen then?


Hmm... Off the cuff, I would tell the child quietly that I will try to help her, and not to worry. I would then hold the child's hand/wrist and loudly exclaim, "I need someone to call the police, this child says she has been kidnapped!" And I would not allow anyone but a police officer to take the child away from me.

I feel that having made that announcement before witnesses would protect me from the possibility of being accused of wrongfully detaining the child or preventing the adult who came there with her (presumably the kidnapper, according to what the child has told me) from accessing her or leaving with her.

Once a child has said that she's been kidnapped, the police are going to be necessary to sort through the to the truth of the matter.


-azurefly

BigO01
September 9, 2006, 05:14 AM
I think if I were quietly told this , especially by a child in a store . I would hand her my wallet or a $20 bill or drivers license and tell her to hide it in her clothing quickly , once she had I would back up and start yelling thief , pickpocket , stop that kid , Call the cops somebody .

I would want a reason to draw attention to her and who she was with other than a kidnapping accusation , and get as many people as I could to notice them and get a good look at who she was with .

Once the police showed up I would ask an officer if we could speak privately and I would then explain to them what happened and why .

If you got a dunderhead cop and he simply gave me back what was mine and let them go about their business the kidnapper wouldn't suspect what had really happened and hopefully wouldn't kill the child for trying to get away . And if later someone in that Police department discovered the truth with a little luck several people would have a description of the kidnapper and perhaps what kind of vehicle they left in .

If the kid was lying well I look like an clown for believing it and hopefully the kid gets a spanking when they get home .

I like azurefly idea also but quite frankly I have dealt with to damn many stupid cops that are just patrolmen and if one of those showed up I would keep my mouth shut and insist on having everony taken to the station and pressing charges until I told my tale , or have a reason t insist on a supervisor at the scene because the patrolmen was shirking his duty .

You would be surprised how many cops have this power trip thing going and think all they have to do is sit and lecture people then let them go about their business .

Blackwater OPS
September 9, 2006, 05:27 AM
First off, you have to do something. At least ask a strong "What is going on here." No reason that guy/girl cannot wait until the PD shows up to sort things out.

Second, I have worked as store "security" and people lose their kids all the time. If there is only one entrance its easy, just take the parent there. PD is always notfied right away, but not surprisingly, it's NOT a priority call. The kid always(in my exp) turns up before or after they show up, and usually before. If someone is claiming to be kidnapped, you have damn good reason to believe a felony is being commited. Keep that in mind. If a person claims their kid is getting kidanapped, or the kid claims it, no one is leaving until IDs are verified.

nate1865
September 15, 2006, 03:52 PM
Let's say you are with your child or are watching a friend's kid at the store and recently had an argument. A few minutes later you turn around, and some guy has your child/friend's kid with him. He tells you that he is calling the police and taking your child to the front of the store (away from you) until they come, which could be who knows how long. The guy doesn't listen to you and insists on retaining control of your child until the police come.

I don't know about you, but I would be very inclined to think that this guy is up to no good. It would all come down to his body language, words said, tone of voice and a quick assessment of his intentions and character. No matter what, there is no way that I'm letting a stranger take someone away from me for whom I am responsible.

So, for you guys who seek to jump in and take control - I'd say getting between a parent and a child is a very, very bad place to be, and if you're wrong - it could get ugly very quickly.

joab
September 15, 2006, 05:30 PM
I'd say getting between a parent and a child is a very, very bad place to be, and if you're wrong - it could get ugly very quickly.Fine the kid can stay with the that adult if that becomes necessary.
But the main rule still applies
The kid ain't leaving me until some one in authority releases the kid from my protection.

If the situation was reversed and it was handled with a certain degree of professionalism and respect I would go along to the point that my child is not endangered.
But the same rule still applies, the kid ain't leaving me until someone in authority releases the kid from my protection.

Dwight55
September 15, 2006, 08:14 PM
Nate, . . . you are 100% absolutely correct, . . . it can get ugly, . . . real ugly and real quick.

But picking up the paper, or hearing on the TV that she was killed by the pervert I allowed her to walk out with, . . . that is much uglier, . . . and will be a far more permanent outcome to the situation.

Personally, . . . I don't treat children so that they would want to cause a scene by falsely accusing me of kidnapping them, . . . and my blood pressure would surely rise if they did it for some kind of a prank, . . . but when the LEO's got there, . . . it would be sorted out, . . . and everyone goes home.

That is the way it should end.

May God bless,
Dwight

springmom
September 15, 2006, 08:21 PM
Boy, does this discussion take me back about ten years.

One of my children had a developmental disorder that created rage behaviors. Some fairly sophisticated neuropsychiatric testing (read: expensive testing) found that the issue was essentially a type of seizure disorder.

We found out that one of my other children had this, when we took him one day for a fun day at the bowling alley. Sounds innocuous, right? Ah, but it had an arcade. The arcade had flashing lights, lights that flashed at just the rate to...trigger a seizure.

You would have thought the child was being carved up with a dull gutting knife.

We had no choice but to carry him out and carry him to the car. He was screaming, "Help! help! Help!" because that was part of what he did when this happened. To say that we got some strange looks is putting it mildly. I looked at the hubster and said, "You know SOMEBODY is going to think we're kidnapping him."

We sat in the car restraining him until it passed, he went to sleep, and he was fine. He started medication for a few years shortly thereafter.

Point is, go easy with a screaming child. The overwhelming likelihood is that really IS the parent, and they are desperately wishing a very large hole would open up all the way to China anyway. If you go waving guns around and essentially trying a citizens' arrest you are, um, not going to be helpful.

My $.02, as usual.

Springmom

nate1865
September 15, 2006, 09:04 PM
Obviously - when the red flags are waiving there is a time for action. I don't think anyone of us will even know what that could be until we're in the situation.

If you effectively detain a parent AND THEIR CHILD after that parent let's you know what is going on, you could be the one being carted off to prison and paying for it in a civil suit, so I don't advocate waiting for the police / security / whatever to sort things out as a blanket policy.

Just seek to understand - the likelihood of this scenario while possible is rare.

And folks - I hope we are the ones around when this scenario does arise!

joab
September 15, 2006, 09:42 PM
So what is the likelyhood that you will need that pistol you carry with you today?

dfaugh
September 16, 2006, 06:35 AM
I agree with the previous posts that the good samaritans in America have been shamed into hiding by bad judges, and juries filled with idiots.

Well, I unfortunately have the "Good Samaritan" gene...And, like I've stated in other "What if....." posts, I have NO moral choice except to come to the aid of another....Someday, it may get me killed, or arrested, or in some other kinda trouble....

Basically, in this situation, as many others have said, the child/girl/woman stays with me, until everything gets sorted out. May cause some inconvenience for alot of people...But better safe than sorry.

springmom
September 16, 2006, 08:33 AM
Nate, you're correct.

If you effectively detain a parent AND THEIR CHILD after that parent let's you know what is going on, you could be the one being carted off to prison and paying for it in a civil suit, so I don't advocate waiting for the police / security / whatever to sort things out as a blanket policy.

Just seek to understand - the likelihood of this scenario while possible is rare.


The sheer number of screaming kids in the mall on any given Saturday, versus the number of children who are abducted by a stranger, really ought to stand as a cautionary tale. Call 911, keep the guy in sight, approach and ask questions, and if you realize this is a BG situation, THEN decide how to deal with it. It does happen, that is absolutely true. But if you're going to intervene, do it low key, ask questions, use some sort of friendly pretext to talk to the adult. Don't go off half cocked and assume just because a kid is screaming, that he's BY DEFINITION being abducted.

Springmom

thebaldguy
September 19, 2006, 08:17 PM
I would call 911. Watch and observe. Make a mental note of the description of the people involved. If they leave, get a plate number and description of the car. Watch which direction they leave. Give the info to the police.

I'm not sure I would get directly involved in the situation. I don't think I would walk up and confront anyone. You never know what might happen. Call 911, watch and observe. Report what you see to law enforcement.