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Para Bellum
August 30, 2006, 06:42 AM
The longer I carry, the lower the trigger pull of my Glocks (26, 19, 17) gets.
At the moment I carry with the following setup:

red firing ping spring
"minus" connector
"schuwiduu (http://www.schuwiduu.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=36&language=en)" firing pin safety (that one makes a difference!)
http://www.schuwiduu.com/zen/images/Art.10062-01.gif

That makes a rater short soft and low-weight trigger pull. Friends of mine say that woul be to low for a carry gun. I don't buy that. The gun is perfectly safe still. All safeties work. And it only fires if you deliberately pull the trigger. That's what it ought to do.

So why not have a light trigger pull on a carry gun?

mete
August 30, 2006, 07:12 AM
Because under the stress of a shootout the fine motor coordination disappears !! Only the larger muscles work well, it's a survival process.In addition some guns like the 1911 may not be fully reliable at less than about 4 lbs. In a Glock the "New York" trigger was made to get a safer trigger for police use .A big difference between target and real combat shooting !!

Para Bellum
August 30, 2006, 08:20 AM
Because under the stress of a shootout the fine motor coordination disappears !! Only the larger muscles work well, it's a survival process.In addition some guns like the 1911 may not be fully reliable at less than about 4 lbs. In a Glock the "New York" trigger was made to get a safer trigger for police use .A big difference between target and real combat shooting !!

Hi Mete,

I knew all of this and have been there and done that myself. Still, I see no disadvantage in light trigger pull (with strong "red" firing pin spring) on a still reliable carry gun such as a Glock with the setup posted above...

BTW: AFAIK, the Glock NY-Trigger was made to ease the adaptation from revolvers to Glocks for badly trained cops... I don't see any reason why this would make anything safer at all.

CDH
August 30, 2006, 09:09 AM
In a defensive situation, trigger pull doesn't mean diddely squat.

Light or heavy will not affect your speed of pulling the trigger. The adrenalin pumping through your brain will overcome the difference between 3 pounds or 7 pounds without your even noticing.

What DOES affect the outcome of a gunfight will more likely be your performance overall such as when you decide to draw and fire and how soon (not necessarily how fast) you draw and fire.
The time that a lighter trigger pull will save isn't even a factor.

Once that decision is made, whatever happens, it's all over in the blink of an eye.

On the other hand, the reliability of the weapon you depend to save your life when you need it the most can easily be affected by messing with the trigger.

Your life, your choice. I don't personally care other than it's interest as a discussion item. All my defensive carry weapons remain 100% stock. (XD45, XD9SubC, Colt XSE LTW SS Commander, Walther PPK, S&W 642).

Carter

shield20
September 1, 2006, 08:42 AM
I am all for keeping my CCW pieces stock. More lawyer safe then if self-modified.

I think around 5 or 6# and up would be plenty accurate, and still safe.

oldbillthundercheif
September 1, 2006, 10:55 AM
On a pistol with a manual safety, there is no problem with a fairly light trigger on a carry gun. For Glocks... it's questionable. If the trigger hangs up on anything you are likely to loose a toe. You don't want to be like the DEA agent in that famous video clip...

Ozzieman
September 2, 2006, 06:08 AM
It depends more on the shooter than the gun. For autos I don’t like to see anything under 4 lb’s. I have a Colt Gold cup that a good gunsmith worked on for target only. It has a 2.5 lb. I feel safe with it but I am very careful letting others shoot it. People that cushion there trigger pulls can get the gun to go auto for 2 or more rounds.
I have two Glocks and there for defense only and I wouldn’t mess with them, I agree with others here that when adrenalin is pumping, trigger pull weight means nothing, only training means anything. You will end up shooting like you train, so train with what you carry.

Duxman
September 2, 2006, 08:24 AM
+1 on keeping your gun stock.

I believe if you are PROPERLY trained with a firearm that has a 3.5# or even lower trigger pull...then it is OK for you to use that.

But an untrained or even poorly trained person should be relegated to NO FIREARM, or between 7-12# trigger pulls so they do not AD.

I think with the poorly / untrained person - the AD is the bigger danger than pulling and shooting.

rick_reno
September 2, 2006, 08:28 AM
I had 3.5 lb connectors in my glock - then I found I shoot them better with the stock configuration. That's seems strange to even me, because their stock triggers are really pretty bad.

Blackwater OPS
September 3, 2006, 04:16 AM
I would say 4.5 as BARE MINIMUM, this should be no problem to use, and there is a margin(slight!) for safety. 2.5 might be ok for compitition, but I think it's crazy for a ccw or duty carry gun. I have been in situations where I had to fight for control of my weapon, and I was damn glad for my 12# DA(/SA) trigger.

Double Naught Spy
September 3, 2006, 08:12 AM
Because under the stress of a shootout the fine motor coordination disappears !! Only the larger muscles work well, it's a survival process.In addition some guns like the 1911 may not be fully reliable at less than about 4 lbs. In a Glock the "New York" trigger was made to get a safer trigger for police use .A big difference between target and real combat shooting !!

What is it that magically happens below 4 lbs to make the gun unreliable?

John 242
September 3, 2006, 10:14 AM
In a defensive situation, trigger pull doesn't mean diddely squat.

Light or heavy will not affect your speed of pulling the trigger. The adrenalin pumping through your brain will overcome the difference between 3 pounds or 7 pounds without your even noticing.
Isn’t a short and light (4 lbs. or so) trigger pull helpful in achieving accurate hits? Wouldn’t a 12 lb pull make it hard, or harder to achieve accurate shot placement as the distance to the target (bad-guy, whatever) increases? In addition, if only a portion of the BG is exposed (part of his head, and firing hand for example) wouldn’t a heavier trigger pull make it harder to hit a smaller target as compared to a shorter, lighter pull?

You mention triggers in the 3-7 lb range, but I am talking about a your typical 4-5 lb. factory 1911 pull versus a long DA (or heavy striker fired DA onlys) with a pull of say 10-12 lbs.

It seems to me that different shooting conditions require different engagement techniques. A close in target for example would get what I call a ‘snap shot’. As the difficulty of the shot increases, so does the amount of care used in squeezing the trigger and sight alignment. Granted, with adrenalin making your heart pound and your knees wobble, it will be harder to achieve the same amount of accuracy as on a peaceful range, but when a shooter must make a difficult shot, wouldn’t he or she apply the same skill sets that were learned on a range? Specifically, sight alignment and trigger squeeze? Wouldn’t a lighter pull facilitate easier target engagement for difficult shots? Please correct me if I am wrong.

AirForceShooter
September 3, 2006, 10:21 AM
my Springer 1911 is set at 3 lbs.

AFS

CDH
September 3, 2006, 11:21 AM
Isn’t a short and light (4 lbs. or so) trigger pull helpful in achieving accurate hits? Wouldn’t a 12 lb pull make it hard, or harder to achieve accurate shot placement as the distance to the target (bad-guy, whatever) increases? In addition, if only a portion of the BG is exposed (part of his head, and firing hand for example) wouldn’t a heavier trigger pull make it harder to hit a smaller target as compared to a shorter, lighter pull?

Don't romanticize how a defensive shoot would go down.

Point 1: The most common scenario involves a shot at a VERY close range, usually several feet. If you missed at that range, it wouldn't be because of trigger pull. You would miss because you're scared out of your wits, but you're supposed to train for that so that you can keep a clear head.

Point 2: I'd like to hear of any defensive shooting on record where the potential victim (armed) decided the outcome by shooting the big toe off of a bad guy hunkered down behind a barricade. That's Annie Oakley talk.

Point 3: If you don't like the trigger pull of a particular pistol, then you need to get a different gun DESIGNED to work at a lighter trigger pull. All guns are "designed" to work the way they come out of the box, and modifying them very often leads to unreliability. Modifying competition guns or range guns is fine and fun, but messing with a defensive pistol is not something I would consider.
For example, I never did like the DA first shot trigger pull on my S&W 6906. But I carried it because, at the time, it was the safest choice for the way I liked to carry (chambered with hammer down and safety NOT engaged).
Then along came the XD pistols, and I instantly fell in love. At about 5 pounds trigger pull on first and subsequent shots, it is exactly what I've been looking for, and with no heavy first shot nor any silly safety to futz with. Additionally, I shoot standing, off-hand groups with my two XD's (9SubC and .45/4") as tight as I do with my 1911's. Yup, that surprised me too.

While I wouldn't personally choose to carry a pistol with a 12 pound trigger pull (any more :) ), I never doubted that it would be a great defensive pistol if I ever needed it. I know I could count on my adrenlin giving me the strength I needed when the time came.
The other part of that equation is that trigger pulls set too light are even more dangerous because the same adrenlin that will allow me to quickly and efficiently pull a 12 pound trigger will also, combined with fear and panic, urge me to acquire the trigger and squeeze it too soon while drawing the weapon. I don't think I could bear hearing the laughter of the BG as he watches me look down at the hole in my foot.

I've been a "gun nut" since I was 8 years old, and I have done some really stupid at-home gunsmithing when I was younger (and ruined some really nice pieces at that :mad: ).
I'm now much older and smarter, and while I am capable of doing some proper tuning on guns, I have never even considered screwing around with any of my self defense weapons, nor will I let anyone else do so either unless it's a necessary repair or maintenance issue done by a factory technician.
That's all I'm trying to say.

Carter

Para Bellum
September 3, 2006, 02:43 PM
Thank you all for your time and thought.

I still found no arguments against a light trigger pull provided that the functionality of your gun doesn't suffer. In stress you won't notice any difference, but in practice with your carry gun(s) you get quicker which again influences you behavoir in a stress situation....

The setup I have now is perfetly safe.

Standard Glock
+ Glock 3,5lb connector ("minus connector")
+ red firing pin spring (increased power and more reliable than standard)
+ "schuwiduu" firing pin safety (http://www.schuwiduu.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=36) (just makes the trigger more precise and lighter)

That's it. IMHO and AFAIK now this is the best Glock setup I have seen in carry Glocks.

oldbillthundercheif
September 3, 2006, 04:47 PM
A 3.5 trigger on a carry gun with no manual safety seems safe to you?

You might as well carry a 1911 with a rubber band over the grip saftey with one in the pipe, hammer back, and the saftey off. It would amount to the same thing. I hope your holster completely covers the trigger-guard!

Blackwater OPS
September 3, 2006, 06:09 PM
I still found no arguments against a light trigger pull provided that the functionality of your gun doesn't suffer.

Then you need to read those posts again.

DonR101395
September 3, 2006, 08:33 PM
I still found no arguments against a light trigger pull provided that the functionality of your gun doesn't suffer. In stress you won't notice any difference, but in practice with your carry gun(s) you get quicker which again influences you behavoir in a stress situation....

How would you defend yourself in a court room when the other side has their expert declare that a 3.5 pound trigger was intended for competition at the range and never intended to be used on a carry gun.

James K
September 3, 2006, 09:12 PM
I realize that everyone on here has been in multiple gun fights with hundreds of drug dealing gangs, so I will probably be the only one to admit that while I carried for years as a deputy sheriff, I never fired a shot in anger.

Still, I was in a couple of tacky situations and I will reveal, that unlike all you experienced gunfighters, I was nervous as hell and scared to boot. Looking back, I think that the last thing I needed was a trigger so light that my shaking hand would have emptied the magazine. Of course, as all you folks who have undergone extensive training know, when you are faced with the prospect of killing someone or taking a bullet yourself, you will be calm, clear headed and careful. You would never touch one off accidentally or have any fear or trepidation. (If you agree, you are nuts!)

Of course, there is no need to be afraid when your shooting has been done on the range or in the video game. In the less perfect atmosphere of the real world, I never cocked my revolver, preferring DA both for the heavier pull and for control.

Jim

Double Naught Spy
September 3, 2006, 09:34 PM
How would you defend yourself in a court room when the other side has their expert declare that a 3.5 pound trigger was intended for competition at the range and never intended to be used on a carry gun.

Where are these carry gun rules of trigger pull posted? Either you had the right to use lethal force or you did not. Trigger pull won't change it.

You might as well ask how you would defend yourself in court because you were carrying a gun and why would you be carrying a gun unless you intended to shoot somebody. Or why are you carrying hollowpoints, why carry X caliber, etc.

With that said, a negligent discharge resulting in injury to another is a complete other matter and in that case, factors such as trigger pull may indeed come into play and that is a very real concern and that sort of enters into Jim Keenan's comments. You don't want to shoot until you have decided you should be shooting and not before.

DonR101395
September 3, 2006, 09:40 PM
I realize that everyone on here has been in multiple gun fights with hundreds of drug dealing gangs, so I will probably be the only one to admit that while I carried for years as a deputy sheriff, I never fired a shot in anger.

Still, I was in a couple of tacky situations and I will reveal, that unlike all you experienced gunfighters, I was nervous as hell and scared to boot. Looking back, I think that the last thing I needed was a trigger so light that my shaking hand would have emptied the magazine. Of course, as all you folks who have undergone extensive training know, when you are faced with the prospect of killing someone or taking a bullet yourself, you will be calm, clear headed and careful. You would never touch one off accidentally or have any fear or trepidation. (If you agree, you are nuts!)

Of course, there is no need to be afraid when your shooting has been done on the range or in the video game. In the less perfect atmosphere of the real world, I never cocked my revolver, preferring DA both for the heavier pull and for control.

Not sure where you're going with this, it looks to me like most people are not advocating a light trigger pull. I haven't read anywhere in the thread where anyone talked about their multiple gunfights. As for extensive training, that means different things to different people. To some it's the military training they received 20 years ago, to others it's going to the range every week and doing FOF training a few times a month and going to a shooting school one or two times a year, most people are probably somewhere in between the two.
To me whatever you're happy with, go forth and prosper. You are the only one who has to answer the mail on your training, your weapon and your actions.

Deaf Smith
September 3, 2006, 09:48 PM
In all my Glocks, carry or competition, I use a NY-1 trigger spring and 3.5 lb connector. It gives a 7 to 8 lb pull with no stageing of the trigger. Just a strait pull backwards.

Now you will far far more likely have to hold a person at bay for police than shoot them. It's holding one at bay, nervious and finger on the trigger, that makes the use of a heavy trigger pull a good thing. And that is why I use that setup.

I don't fault those who carry 1911s or 3.5 connecters as long as you keep your finger off the trigger unless you want that gun to go off. This is especially true in winter if you wear glovers and have to shoot a Glock or a SA that has the safty off. Gloves must might make your fingers insensitive to the trigger, and thus set up for a AD/ND and someone dead. Lawsuits happen that way....

tlm225
September 4, 2006, 07:23 AM
For my use as a defensive/duty gun, 5 pounds minimum. FWIW I've never had a problem getting good, fast hits at a realistic distance with a 10-12 pound DA trigger on a revolver. For me the quality of the trigger (smooth and consistent) is more important than light weight.

revjen45
September 4, 2006, 09:57 AM
"Now you will far far more likely have to hold a person at bay for police than shoot them."

If I have drawn and not fired I want the perp to hit the road. Trying to hold him for police would just make him desperate enough that I might have to shoot. The police always call for backup when holding a perp at bay. If faced with being shot or getting out I think most perps will leave. The police can capture him and the Persecuting Shysters Office can try to put him in jail. I have no delusions that I am Supercop, and given the choice between maybe having to shoot him and running him off, I will take the latter.

Axion
September 5, 2006, 01:05 AM
A 3.5 trigger on a carry gun with no manual safety seems safe to you?

On the gunzone.com there is a bit about a cop who was at the range with his "POLICE" windbreaker on. When he went to re-holster his gun one of the draw strings got caught in the trigger guard. He didn't know this untill he sat down in his car and the draw string pulled the trigger on his glock resulting in a bullt in his thigh. OUCH.

If you guys want to carry any single action gun with nothing more then a trigger saftey cocked and locked that's fine by me, but I wouldn't.

John 242
September 5, 2006, 09:57 AM
Carter, thank you for responding to my post, I appreciate it. I always welcome an opportunity to learn form someone else.

Don't romanticize how a defensive shoot would go down.
Point 1: The most common scenario involves a shot at a VERY close range, usually several feet. If you missed at that range, it wouldn't be because of trigger pull. You would miss because you're scared out of your wits, but you're supposed to train for that so that you can keep a clear head.
Romanticizing isn’t something I’m often accused of. I’ll have to tell my wife, she’ll get a kick out of it.
I agree that most gunfights occur at ‘close range’… 1-5 yards, but not all.
I will also agree that at contact distance, the need for accuracy is trumped by speed. What I don’t understand is why you dismiss the possibility of taking a shot that requires trigger control? Is it unrealistic (or romantic) to think that we might have to shoot someone from across a room, a couple of car lengths away, across a lawn, etc?

Point 2: I'd like to hear of any defensive shooting on record where the potential victim (armed) decided the outcome by shooting the big toe off of a bad guy hunkered down behind a barricade. That's Annie Oakley talk.
LOL, that’s funny, but not exactly what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines of having to shoot a guy that’s firing from around a corner, or over some cover. You know, a partially exposed target… but since you mentioned shooting toes off, if a guy is shooting at me and all I can see is a foot or hand, well that foot or hand gets shot, assuming of course that it is reasonably safe to do so. YMMV.
Oh, by the way, there have been plenty of guys who gave up after receiving minor wounds because they didn’t have the mindset to continue fighting after they were hurt. Others have fought on despite being mortally wounded.

Point 3: If you don't like the trigger pull of a particular pistol, then you need to get a different gun DESIGNED to work at a lighter trigger pull. All guns are "designed" to work the way they come out of the box, and modifying them very often leads to unreliability. Modifying competition guns or range guns is fine and fun, but messing with a defensive pistol is not something I would consider.
For example, I never did like the DA first shot trigger pull on my S&W 6906. But I carried it because, at the time, it was the safest choice for the way I liked to carry (chambered with hammer down and safety NOT engaged).
I think it’s fair to say that some guys go too far with trigger modifications. I am no expert, but I would think that a reputable gunsmith can reduce a 1911s trigger pull down from 8 lbs to a reasonable 4.5 lbs, without creating unreliability. I would assume that a reasonable lightening and smoothing of a DA revolver’s trigger pull would not affect its reliability either. I think the key word is “reasonable”. There is no doubt that if taken to extremes, reliability (and safety) can suffer.


Then along came the XD pistols, and I instantly fell in love. At about 5 pounds trigger pull on first and subsequent shots, it is exactly what I've been looking for, and with no heavy first shot nor any silly safety to futz with. Additionally, I shoot standing, off-hand groups with my two XD's (9SubC and .45/4") as tight as I do with my 1911's. Yup, that surprised me too.
Good deal. XDs seem to be fine pistols and your trigger pull weight is probably about the same as my stock 1911. When I think of ‘bad’ triggers, I think of my issue M9. With lots of practice perhaps I could master the initial DA pull, but to be honest, I would be hard pressed to make even a slightly difficult shot with the first round. Same holds for my S&W Mod 27. I find heavy DA trigger pulls to be very difficult to master. Again, with lots of DA practice I could probably equal what I can do with my stock 1911, but unfortunately I don’t have the time or willpower to do so.


While I wouldn't personally choose to carry a pistol with a 12 pound trigger pull (any more ), I never doubted that it would be a great defensive pistol if I ever needed it. I know I could count on my adrenlin giving me the strength I needed when the time came.
The other part of that equation is that trigger pulls set too light are even more dangerous because the same adrenlin that will allow me to quickly and efficiently pull a 12 pound trigger will also, combined with fear and panic, urge me to acquire the trigger and squeeze it too soon while drawing the weapon. I don't think I could bear hearing the laughter of the BG as he watches me look down at the hole in my foot.
Again, I will agree that there is a point where triggers are ’too light’. Me… 4lbs sounds good, but hey, what do I know. Some guys are better shooters than others. I find that I can not shoot a gun with a heavy DA trigger accurately at even moderate ranges (10m or so). If I can’t shoot the gun accurately on a static, peaceful range; I wouldn’t expect to do well with the same gun in a gunfight, in which the BG may be moving, partially behind cover, shooting back, etc.

I don’t want to get into a ‘fine motor skills’ debate. I will say that experiences differ. I am far from being an expert, but I have come to believe that our physiological and psychological reactions in a gunfight are situational to an extent, and are largely affected by the type of training we have received.

What confuses me is that many believe that they will either; a) not need to make an accurate shot because most gunfights are close, or b) that they will be incapable of taking a difficult shot because of nerves, adrenalin, etc. It seems that a lot of people seem to ‘know’ how their gunfight will be. I wish I had their crystal ball.
There is no doubt that adrenalin, and fear will have its effects, but when people talk about panic, I have to wonder what they are setting themselves up for.
If you panic and squeeze your trigger as you are drawing, then 5 or 12 lbs is irrelevant. You are going to shoot yourself (unless your safety is on). The key word is ‘panic’. Panic will get you killed regardless.

I've been a "gun nut" since I was 8 years old, and I have done some really stupid at-home gunsmithing when I was younger (and ruined some really nice pieces at that ).
I'm now much older and smarter, and while I am capable of doing some proper tuning on guns, I have never even considered screwing around with any of my self defense weapons, nor will I let anyone else do so either unless it's a necessary repair or maintenance issue done by a factory technician.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Carter
You are well within your rights to think and do as you choose. I really enjoy thought provoking topics such as this.
I may not agree with you Carter, but I respect where you are coming from.
Please take care,
J. F. Tremblay

bacardisteve
September 5, 2006, 10:15 PM
i have a 3lb trigger pull on my g17. but its a target gun. on my carry weapons i leave them all stock for two reasons. reliability and lawyers. if i have have to take down a bg my weapon will certainly be taken and it will be a while b4 i get it back. a lawyer would have a field day if you modified internals on a gun and if the jury belives your weapon is unsafe you will never get it back and will probably face a lawsuit.

Para Bellum
September 8, 2006, 02:27 PM
A 3.5 trigger on a carry gun with no manual safety seems safe to you?
yep.

You might as well carry a 1911 with a rubber band over the grip saftey with one in the pipe, hammer back, and the saftey off. It would amount to the same thing.
nope. 1911s are too heavy. I prefer Glocks.

I hope your holster completely covers the trigger-guard!
Of course it does. I wouldn't carry any other type of holster.

regarding the law:
being a (business-) lawyer myself I see a greater risk in missing my target and hitting somebody else at longer distances due to a heavy trigger. A jury decides whether you were justified to discharge your gun or not.

regarding the usefulness:
immidiate incapacitation requires very accurate shooting. And many defense situations do anyway (read Cirillo...). And I am much more accurate and fast with light triggers...

Mikeyboy
September 8, 2006, 02:46 PM
Opinions on light trigger vs Heavy trigger pulls for your CCW is one thing. If you modify your CCW and have an AD and kill someone, now that is a different story. You can kiss your money, house, car, and gun collection goodbye. From a liability standpoint you will not have a leg to stand on, since you modified the Glock well below the Manufactures specs. Having an ultra light trigger pull on a target gun that will only be at the range or in your home, the likelyhood of having an AD and hitting yourself or some bystander is a heck of a lot less than with your CCW that you carry with you 24/7. Eventually you will make a mistake at the worse possible time.