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Para Bellum
August 15, 2006, 04:47 PM
I have to correct myself on a theory on what to do if held at gun point, eg at a crossoads, and forced to leave my car to let a BG get in and (try) to drive off.

Older and wiser I'd try to do the following: As soon as BG sits down and is diverted by that, shoot front and rear tires of the drivers side or both tires at the rear (whatever possible). That's minimum damage to our car and should prevent the car theft. If the BG then leaves the car and runs, that's fine. If he doesn't, another scenario might enroll, with my gun in my hands and being prepared.

What would you do or not do?

mete
August 15, 2006, 05:07 PM
The best way is to be alert an avoid the problem. If you are in the car ,that makes an excellent weapon. Stopping for a red light may be a foolish thing if you have reason to believe there are carjackers there waiting.One case I know of ,the cops told the victim "No one stops for a red light in this neighborhood at 2:00am " One trick the car jackers use here is to have two cars ,one in front of you and one behind. You come to a red light .First car stops hoping you will pull up close behind , second car then pulls up close behind you , blocking you ,and take your car.Always leave enough room in front of you to go around the car in front !

threegun
August 15, 2006, 05:34 PM
Para, Why not shoot the armed bad guy? After all he is going to shoot back at you once you start firing (even if at the tires). If you aren't going to shoot the threat just don't shoot IMO.

As mete pointed out an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Be alert be ready and if you have to shoot do so with one thing in mind and that is stopping the threat. You aren't supposed to shoot to save property.

shield20
August 15, 2006, 05:45 PM
Robbery = justified use of deadly force. When 1st threatened how do you know he only wants your car? Why waste ammo on the tires? And wherever those rounds go AFTER they punch through the rubber is YOUR responsibility.

tony pasley
August 15, 2006, 06:13 PM
Sept 1999 3 males advance toward my vechile. We pointed out the error of thier ways. They turn around seeing our point. Doors were locked. I was ready for anything. They understood what I was willing to do.




[Edit: Some free caps and complete sentences, courtesy of Bud Helms]

stephen426
August 15, 2006, 06:31 PM
I am from Miami and we have had more than our fair share of car jackings. Fortunately, neither I nor anyone I know have been carjacked. As mentioned by mete, the best way to prevent a car jacking is to always be aware of your surroundings and always leave enough distance from the car in front of your. The problem is that the car in front can back up while the car from the back closes in effectively trapping you. A more common scenario is to give you a little "love tap" and car jack you when you get out of your car to inspect the damage.

Tactically speaking, someone shooting at the occupant of a car has a much greater advantage compared to the occupant of the car. The driver will most likely be strapped in and his mobility is severely hindered. Another disadvantage is that his position is known and he is stuck in that position where as the assailant can move. The driver's visibility is hindered by blind spots created by A,B, and/or C pillars. Basically, the driver stands little chance of getting out of a shoot out unscathed.

Does that mean you should just roll over and give up your car? If the car jacker already has a gun on you and you are trapped, YES. If you are carrying a gun on your person, then you can try to gain control of the situation AFTERWARDS. The problem is that car jackers rarely work alone (especially if they are trapping you with a car in front and behind you). You stand little chance of getting out unscathed against multiple attackers. The only possibility is if a lone car jacker is standing on a street corner and rushes you. Even then, you should exit the vehicle and then regain control when YOU have the tactical advantage.

The best option is to invest $500 in a Lojack system and have the police deal with this guy. Pretty much all of the cars in my family have Lojack and it pays for itself in insurance premiums in just a few years. There is always the possibility that the car jackers will wreck the car before the police are able to recover it, but it is better than getting shot like a dog over something that can be replaced.

You can also get an alarm system that can disable the car, but you run the risk of the car jackers coming after you. You would have to constantly carry the disabling remote with you. Another down fall is the limited range of those remotes. As mentioned, if the car jackers are close, they may come after you.

The final option is to drive a piece of crap that is so ugly and busted up that even a desperate car jacker would not want. Personally, I'm sticking with the Lojack option.

I forgot to point out that you should NEVER EVER stay in the car with a car jacker. This is especially true if you are a woman. If the car jacker forces you into the passenger seat, either try to gain control of the weapon or jump out of the car when it comes to a stop.

Maveri9720
August 15, 2006, 06:49 PM
About a year ago, I was doing some pretty heavy research into getting an alarm system for my truck that stays outside, due to being too big to fit in the garage. In my research, Lojack came up many a time and always with less than satisfied comments.

From what I have gathered, Lojack is basically worthless. Most cop cars aren't even equipped with the tracking equipment anymore and there is a range for tracking it. If the BG is outside the range, then it won't pick up and you're SOL.

An alarm would be good with disabling properties, b/c as soon as the BG gets you out of the car, you just haul butt somewhere safe and call 911. The car won't be going anywhere and if you were able to put distance in between you and the BG's, you should be safe from them coming after you.

I have learned yet another thing tonight. I never thought of leaving room in front of me, just in case.

I am still very new to this and am spending all my time here trying to learn everything I can, in hopes that one day it might save my life, my family's life, or possibly your family's life.

hot sauce
August 15, 2006, 06:53 PM
O.K. so the bad guy has already car jacked you and he is sitting in the drivers seat preparing to take off. You already have your gun out so instead of shooting out your own tires put one in his ear instead. No sense in letting him get the drop on you because he will start shooting at you as soon as you fire the first shot at your tires. Stay safe stay alive!

stephen426
August 15, 2006, 07:01 PM
Maveri9720,

I'm not sure where you get your statistics and how skewed Lojack's stats (http://www.lojack.com/why/lojack-recovery-statistics.cfm)are, but here is a link to their website and their claimed recover rate. There are always ways to beat a good mouse trap, but most mice aren't that smart.

Like I said, the savings on the insurance premiums (especially Dade county/Miami where it is obscene), pay for the unit in a few years and you probably even save more money is you keep your car for more than a few years.

I believe that the police are very interested in recovering stolen vehicles which are Lojack equipped since it can lead them to chop shops and possible even help them catch the car jackers. There are always skeptics, but for me, there are few viable options.

Maveri9720
August 15, 2006, 08:24 PM
I just spent some time trying to find where I was before and find the info regarding Lojack, but as typically works out, I can't find it.

But, I did alittle research and similiarly to glocks, you either love it or hate it.

It depends on whether your city/town's PD are equipped with tracking units and where the installer hides your transceiver.

Lojack has high recovery rates b/c they consider: #1 if the car is ever found, ie, 2 hours or 2 years later, it is considered recovered and #2 if they find the transceiver, ie, hidden in your door, or on your engine, it is considered recovered, regardless if the rest of your car is with it.

Personally, I would go with a GPS protection system. PC tracked. Doesn't rely on anyone else having tracking units. More precise.

But, that's just my .02

Sorry to get off topic here.

kkb
August 15, 2006, 09:09 PM
Personally, I would go with a GPS protection system. PC tracked. Doesn't rely on anyone else having tracking units. More precise.How about just wiring a free "family plan" cell phone into the car and never using it. Leave it on and it can be tracked.



...shoot front and rear tires of the drivers side or both tires at the rear...Isn't there a minimum caliber needed to pucture a tire lest it just bounce off? Do you know what caliber?

JohnKSa
August 15, 2006, 09:32 PM
...shoot front and rear tires of the drivers side or both tires at the rear...Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of discharging a firearm in a populated area unless someone's life is in danger.

LSU12ga
August 15, 2006, 09:36 PM
I have had 2 friends car jacked right outside of my old highschool. But the BG made them come along for the ride, or drive the car at gun point. One was taken hostage for a few hours and then let go. The on who had to drive was made the BG's honorary chauffeur for the day taking him to various crack houses. One time the guy forget to take the keys out of the ignition and my friend drove out of the neighborhood as fast as he could go.

in both these situations the BGs had guns and the drivers did not, but i am not sure what good a gun would have done in this case.

skipjack
August 15, 2006, 09:49 PM
My brother was carjacked about 10 years ago, at knifepoint. We are not allowed to carry firearms in Maryland...the thief got away after a brief struggle.

My brother grabbed his arm, didn't think,but acted on instinct.
Brother's friend, who he had just dropped off because friend was getting his vehicle serviced, followed for a distance. The car was found a week or so later, trashed and pretty torn up,mechanically.

The carjacker had just been arrested by a store security guard for shoplifting, escaped and ran onto the parking lot. He attempted to jack the two vehicles in front of my brother at a red light, but my brother's car, since the passenger door was unlocked was the ultimate vehicle he stole.

The thief was convicted, and since he had prior convictions, got 10 years in the slammer. I am my brother's insurance agent, and saw the damage report. Judging from the perp's arrest record, and the state of the vehicle (vomit in the car) we concluded that he was a druggie.

BTW, this happened in a very nice part of Baltimore county, not at all a high crime area.

My suggestions to my clients is as follows:

1) Keep doors and windows secure
2) Observe and do whatever possible to avoid getting trapped to where you can't move your vehicle.
3) Keep a cellphone handy to call 911 or someone to pick you up if you do have your vehicle stolen
4) Don't fight the carjacker; we are unarmed, and vehicles are replaceable, you are not.

My advice on 4 would be a little different if we had concealed carry for the general population, but not much. We had a recent shooting where a carry permit holder (one of the few) shot a guy trying to rob him. His legal troubles and expenses are mounting...big money! Unless your life is in danger, you are opening a huge can of worms by capping someone, at least where I live. Yeah,you are still going to go through the wringer anyway, but at least you will be alive to fight in court.

Lojack and the like are good if you have a vehicle that is stolen to be parted out or shipped overseas for the black market. It doesn't generally give you a discount on your auto insurance, despite what the F&I guy at the dealership tells you. If my vehicle is stolen and used in a drive-by, I probably don't want it back, anyway!:)

Dwight55
August 15, 2006, 10:20 PM
At one time, I would have probably opted to try to shoot the tires, or something of that order.

Not here in Ohio, though, . . . the CCW law is fairly specific as to why and where you can draw and shoot, . . . vehicle recovery is not one of them.

Besides that, . . . with the cost of litigation today, . . . my three vehicles total less than a week's worth of lawyer's wages.

Bg wants mine, . . . he can probably have it.

Unless of course, . . . my grandson/nephew/neice/granddaughter etc. happens to be strapped in a baby seat in the back, . . . nahhh, . . . and just what ever it would take in that situation, . . . he ain't gettin my wheels with the kid on board. I'd slam the guy in front of me, . . . behind me, . . . and be a real jerk before I give a bg my family. Oh, . . . and yes, . . . given the opportunity, . . . he'd get a .45 right through the window.

May God bless,
Dwight

Bogie
August 16, 2006, 07:44 AM
I see several problems here...

1) Situational awareness... Don't get carjacked in the first place. Doh...

2) He's got the car, and you're okay. Fine. Shooting those tires out is gonna cost you a LOT more than the insurance deductible on the car, by the time you bail outta jail, and lawyer up. Shooting him, while inherently satisfying in an old-testament kinda way, is gonna cost more than the car.

40MM
August 16, 2006, 08:41 AM
Just thought i may add something to this thread. I live in S.A. , which must surely be the car-jacking (we call it high-jacking) capitol of the world! It has become common practice for the BG's to search their victims first, looking for firearms and cell phones and other such items. So its not going to be easy to draw your weapon if they find it first. Also, when two or three of them are pointing guns at your wife or child's head, trust me, you will let them just take the damn car! All my cars have tracking devices in them but the thieves have ways around this as well. Like most here suggested: Be aware and prevent them from getting near to you in the first place.

Samurai
August 16, 2006, 08:50 AM
I just carry full theft coverage...

And I subscribe to the "drive a crappy car" option. If someone wants my Tacoma, I'll get another one... at a junk yard...

This discussion is thought provoking, though. I didn't know you could get a Lojack for your personal vehicle! I thought that was just high-level government stuff... Neat-o!

Dreadnought
August 16, 2006, 12:03 PM
I am under the impression that carjacking is a threat to personal safety and use of deadly force is justified, since you are, in effect, trapped in your car.

Dre_sa
August 16, 2006, 03:06 PM
while i have never been involved in a carjacking before, i have many friends who have, and have witnessed one from a distance.
here in south africa, when such an event occurs, you dont have much of a chance to get out of it. here the BG's generally always go for a car that has stopped at an intersection, at the front of the line, with multiple cars behind it (generally during rush hour traffic). the act really quickly here, and before you can react by driving off, there is already a gun to your head, often they will break a window to do so. a person has no time to react. also they attack in large groups of 4 or more (average, never heard of a solitary BG doing this). if they dont get you during traffic at an intersection, they will take your car from you in your own driveway.
there is pretty much nothing a person can do about this here, there are too many BG's to fight your way out, and most if not all of them are armed.
now days, its likely that a person wont survive a carjacking.
to give an example of the cold brutality of the criminals here, there have been multiple incidents at one particular highway exit (we call them off-ramps here). heres what happened. the person stops at the intersection after coming off the highway, a group of BG's then assault the vehicle, kill the occupant, adn steal nothing more than a cellular phone. thats it, 3 people have died for nothing more than a cellular phone at that intersection, all in the past 2 months. we also have a lot of cash in transit heists, where the BG's use the stolen cars to over turn armoured vehicles to steal large ammounts of cash being transported to and from banks.
car jacking isnt something to be taken likely. i have thought it wise to do as follows, once you give up your car, and are pulled out of it, run away, let the cops deal with it. cars are replacable, thats why we have insurance.

Para Bellum
August 30, 2006, 06:36 AM
Robbery = justified use of deadly force. When 1st threatened how do you know he only wants your car? Why waste ammo on the tires?
1) I prefer a punctured tires to BGs brains all over the interior of my car.

2) I want to get out of such a sitiation with (i) minimal damage to my self (ii) minimal damage to my property and if reasonably possible (iii) minmal damage even to the BG. Let his inmates handle him.

3) I prefer to avoid a killing if I can.

4) I don't need theft insurance for my car.

5) Justified doesn't always mean wise or neccessary.

garryc
August 30, 2006, 08:12 AM
Unless someone else is in danger they can have the dang car. If they try to take my wife then we got a fight. Unfortunatly in ohio if you are carrying in a vehicle your gun has to be fully exposed or locked in a box. There is no clear definition of fully exposed so if they get the car with the gun in a lock box they also have the gun.
I've thought that maybe a security system could be made that requires you to input a code to start the car. Then maybe it could have a panic button that you could hit that causes the car to shut down and activates the alarm in say 4 minutes. That way the jacker is away from you when it shuts down. Just a thought.

CDH
August 30, 2006, 09:01 AM
An officer present at a recent CCW class I was at put it to us this way from the persective of an active LE patrolman (Sargent):

The most lethal situations you can get involved in are home invasions and car jackings. In either case, if you have no option of leaving, take your first opportunity to draw your weapon and FIRE.
In either of these situations, it is safe to assume that if you are a man, you will be killed, and if you are a woman, you will at least be raped and then probably killed.

That comes from a Texas LE.
He added that of all the situations that you can avoid by just not going to the wrong parts of town, these two situations can happen no matter where you live or where you go.

Just more food for thought.

Carter

Para Bellum
August 30, 2006, 02:06 PM
Unfortunatly in ohio if you are carrying in a vehicle your gun has to be fully exposed or locked in a box.
Being an (European) attorney myself I still can see no reason behind that rule... but that's what most gun-laws are about anyway...

garryc
September 1, 2006, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Unfortunatly in ohio if you are carrying in a vehicle your gun has to be fully exposed or locked in a box.

Being an (European) attorney myself I still can see no reason behind that rule... but that's what most gun-laws are about anyway...

You can blame the Ohio State Patrol for that one. And the FOP to a slightly lesser degree

shield20
September 1, 2006, 01:26 PM
Para,

How do you KNOW he ONLY wants your car? How do you KNOW you are "getting out of the situation" at all, unless YOU take action? You trust him because he says so, while he is (at the least) robbing you? OK - so you got out, he got in, and now he is driving away...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger.

spacemanspiff
September 1, 2006, 01:35 PM
I'd only shoot out the tires if i was laying on the ground prone and rolling over and over side to side, 'lethal weapon' style. Cause I'm cool like that.

SIGSHR
September 1, 2006, 03:20 PM
An LEO advised me years ago to carry the vehicle's registration in my wallet, not in the vehicle. If the BG does make off with your vehicle and leaves you intact, you can quickly give law enforcement the license plate,
VIN, etc.

skeeter1
September 1, 2006, 03:40 PM
If someone wants to jack my 7-year-old Oldsmobile, I'm not going to try and stop them. That's what insurance is for. I'm not going to risk going to prison over a simple car.

If someone breaks into my house, then the rules change... A LOT!

Odd Job
September 1, 2006, 03:48 PM
I agree with what the other South Africans have said. Genrally speaking if you are stationary and the hijacker is at your side window, you have already lost. You've got equal chances of being shot straight away through the window. They don't always ask you to get out, it depends what they want the car for. Here is a typical scenario:

I am a crime boss and I use Dre_Sa for 'contract' work. One day 40mm comes to me and says the starter motor on his 2001 Golf has packed up and can I find one for him. I say sure, it will cost R200. I tell Dre_Sa I need a starter motor from a 2001 golf and I'll give him R150 for it. Dre_Sa goes out and waits behind a hedge at an intersection in one of the suburbs, looking for Golfs. When the right one comes along and stops there, he just jumps out and shoots the driver through the head or neck through the side window. He will chuck the victim out onto the road and drive off. It doesn't matter that he got the inside of the car dirty or that he broke the side window and possibly damaged the inside of the passenger door too. He brings the car back to me, I pay him R150. I take out the starter motor and burn the car. Then 40mm pays me R200 for the starter motor. So I made R50, Dre_Sa made R150 and 40mm saved a few hundred bucks on a starter motor.

See? A guy died for a starter motor. That's how it works. My mother and sister were hijacked and were lucky to escape that alive. They must have wanted the vehicle in good condition. It was a 3-series BMW (the old shape, very popular for hijacking at one time). The estate agent who came to see our house was hijacked at the gate and an ENT surgeon was shot dead in his car, just as he left the hospital after his shift, in broad daylight.

There is another element to hijacking: they use children on occasion. Here is what happend to a radiologist who was on-call and had to drive out to Baragwanath hospital to report on a brain scan. It was quite dark and as he was driving along he saw a kid lying in the middle of the road, motionless. This looked like a pedestrian hit by a car and left for dead. He pulled up a short way from the kid and got out of the car to investigate. After he took a few steps, the kid miraculously jumped to his feet and darted off to the side of the road. The radiologist caught a fast movement out of the corner of his eye, and made a mad dash back to the car. He got in and slammed the door and was aware of a figure right next to the driver's door. He heard hands on the bodywork of the car as he floored it. Upon arrival at the hospital he inspected the car. There was a piece of skin wedged in the door well, and a blood streak going from that door edge down the side of the car. He must have closed that door in the nick of time, trapping the hijacker's fingers in it before speeding off.

So I guess you really have to be alert and be suspicious of any little thing. I almost had a problem one night, coming back from the hospital at 2 o'clock in the morning. I had just turned left off a main road in Rosebank and was driving down a poorly-lit street. I noticed in my rearview that a white car had turned off after me. I made the next turn left, and the other car also made a left. I slowed down and he also slowed down, didn't want to pass. Now instead of pulling into the driveway of the place where I was staying, I just let the car crawl, loosened my seatbelt and drew the pistol. I also wound the window down and got ready to make a move. The white car stopped and used brights on me, and I opened the door with my left hand, twisting in my seat with the pistol concealed against the headrest with my right. A guy got out the car and I was just about to start the proceedings when the blue lights came on and I saw that the car was a police utility vehicle (what we would call a bakkie). I let him come closer and could see his uniform and empty hands. I holstered the gun and complained to him bitterly about his tactics. He said he thought the car was stolen because it had Durban plates and I was in JHB. I said really sourly that I thought he was a hijacker and we could have had a problem. He should have had the lights and siren on a lot sooner and pulled me over instead of following me around like a weasel.

Mind you, there have been cases where hijackers have dressed as police and pulled people over and taken their cars and valuables. Such is the level of hijacking 'expertise' in SA that it really can be stressful just driving around. I should imagine that it is not as bad in the US.

chadwimc
September 1, 2006, 04:01 PM
I leave work sometimes at 0300-0400. On the way home, I pass through a stretch of "diverse neighborhoods". At the redlight one night, I paused long enough to clear the intersection. Sure enough, a city cop spotted me. He pulled me over, asked for my license and "where was I going in such a hurry"? I said "I don't wanna linger in this neighborhood any longer than I have to". He kinda snickered. He ran a check on me, then turned me loose. "Be careful next time". Which I took to mean "Don't run a redlight in front of me, stupid":D

bclark1
September 1, 2006, 04:07 PM
Those are some wild stories out of South Africa.

I think the shooting out the tires thing is for the movies. "Europe" is awfully big, so I'm not sure what your local laws are in one particular indescript area thereof, but everywhere I've ever known you reserve deadly force for instances in which you wish to act in a deadly manner. At least you can self-represent in court when they are wondering why you spent a mag and a half once you were already safely away from the car. If you're going to act, act immediately on the pretense that you expected him to cause you harm in order to get the car. Once he's got the car and you're out of it, the situation is defused.

Seems like there's some Ohio guys mulling about in this thread too. I just got here, from Illinois, so it's nice to have some carry provisions. I understand there's no deadly force for property protection here, but what do other Ohioans think about the BG's approach? If a guy was on his way into the car (unlikely because my doors self-lock) or at the window but brought the gun down, could you claim you were in fear for your life or are you better off just giving up the car and hoping you can react if he means worse?

Every city's got the do-not-obey-traffic-signals neighborhoods. There are definitely areas in Chicago that I had to pass through after dark sometimes where you just roll the reds. I've known people who've gotten lost before and were pulled over in some of those areas for driving legally - cops saw them and wanted the opportunity to escort them out. I've already been instructed that my demographic should avoid certain areas around me in Cleveland too, because cops will generally think you're drunk or trying to buy drugs if they see you driving around some areas in the evenings.

stephen426
September 1, 2006, 06:46 PM
Odd Job,

Thats just a crying shame. People working hard and helping people (Doctors) getting killed for some stupid auto part. I'm sure as heck glad that things are not nearly as bad here in Miami. I think most car jackers just want the car. I also believe that few people get shot if they do not resist. While I believe in being alert, it is possible for a bad guy to get the jump on you. In those cases, just give it up. Cars are replacable, but to the best of my knowledge, lives aren't.

I guess the only thing to do there is invest in an armored car. That is probably big business over there huh? I've read about at a company that does that called armormax (http://www.armormax.com/). They aren't cheap but I guess it beats having some thug shoot you for your ride. :barf:

Odd Job
September 1, 2006, 06:59 PM
@ Stephen426

Ja, life just doesn't have any value for some people in SA. It is really sickening, some of the stuff I have seen. The cruelty and evil that abounds is awful (I am not just talking about shooting incidents).

Hijacking: well it got so bad that they had the Blaster system developed. That was the flame thrower system activated by a foot pedal next to the accelerator. IIRC the system was shelved because of road safety concerns if the vehicle was involved in an accident (fire/explosion hazard). A version of the Blaster that used some kind of non-flammable gas like CS instead was developed but I don't think it found favour with the public because it wasn't a 'sure-thing' in many people's minds.

garryc
September 2, 2006, 09:21 AM
Seems like there's some Ohio guys mulling about in this thread too. I just got here, from Illinois, so it's nice to have some carry provisions. I understand there's no deadly force for property protection here, but what do other Ohioans think about the BG's approach? If a guy was on his way into the car (unlikely because my doors self-lock) or at the window but brought the gun down, could you claim you were in fear for your life or are you better off just giving up the car and hoping you can react if he means worse?

It comes down to the mindset of the procecutor. Did you have reason to fear for your life? Did he have a weapon? Not taking into account that by the time you see a weapon you are probably already dead or at least have no oppertunity to draw your own. Lets understand that in ohio if you even touch the gun while the engine is running you are already in violation of the law.

Not to be racist but if a white guy shoots a black man in Cleveland, Cincinnatti or Columbus he WILL be procecuted. The outcry of the black groups will be broadcast on every news channel. The perpetrator will be made out to be a saint and the victim will be made out to be a racist white devil. The politicians stay in power by catering to these groups. In cleveland the black vote constitutes the majority. Figure on the fact that if he lives he will say you made racial remarks. If he doesn't then anyone in the area, or someone who claims to have been in the area will say you yelled racially derogetory remarks. Yeah, shoot to live, but figure on doing that living in a prison cell.
To sumorize;

bclark1

GET THE HELL OUT OF CLEVELAND AND CUYAHOGA COUNTY!!!!!!:barf: :barf: :barf:

22-rimfire
September 2, 2006, 11:42 AM
Carjacking and home invasions: If you are the intended victim, I think you are probably in the most danger (ie your life) since you are cornered and can't retreat necessarily. The topic sure makes worrying about a black bear, grizzly bear, or mountain lion seem tame by comparison. Best way to have a dog bite you is to corner it and make it feel that it has no choice to avoid the encounter.

Home invasions, I have that covered as best as I can. Carjacking, that is another matter.

I honestly don't know what I would do in the case of a carjacking which probably means I'd be dead. I think it is time to consider the scenario which is the purpose of this thread. It is quite thought provoking and merits serious consideration.

In the South Africa scenario, I suspect you are just dead as you are dealing with "professionals" who have no regard for your life. There is little defense against people with total disregard for human life. You need body guards and even then, you are not safe.

Situational awareness is crucial. How many perps? Does the perp(s) have weapons drawn? You have more time if they don't. If they do, I believe you have to react immediately and it is probably too late. Basically you come out firing and hope for the best. This is not the time for a 5-shot revolver with no reload available. I am thinking Glock with extra loaded mags. It is essentially a military situation, not a simple crime situation. What do you do when you have a wife or kids in the car? Really tough call. The odds are not good.

You don't have much time to make a judgement about the level of force to apply defensively. My thought is you make a snap judgement as to escape and if escape is not possible, you come out firing. Escape first; "Run Forrest, Run!". I love that movie. Worry about the car later. Defend yourself by whatever means you have at your disposal. I would rather go down fighting.

RioShooter
September 2, 2006, 12:00 PM
An officer present at a recent CCW class I was at put it to us this way from the persective of an active LE patrolman (Sargent):

The most lethal situations you can get involved in are home invasions and car jackings. In either case, if you have no option of leaving, take your first opportunity to draw your weapon and FIRE.
In either of these situations, it is safe to assume that if you are a man, you will be killed, and if you are a woman, you will at least be raped and then probably killed.

That comes from a Texas LE.
He added that of all the situations that you can avoid by just not going to the wrong parts of town, these two situations can happen no matter where you live or where you go.

This is why I LOVE living in Texas.

S.Miller
September 2, 2006, 01:16 PM
I'm an Ohio cop and the law is clear in that you have the right to use lethal force if you, or another person, are at risk of death or serious physical harm. This will nearly always imply a weapon being used or threatened against you (though not always...and I won't digress in that direction).

So, if you're seated in your car and a thug comes to your window or hops in an unlocked door, is armed, and tells you to get out (or move over) because he's taking your car then I would say you are clearly at risk of serious physical harm or death (what with the thug brandishing a weapon and all). However, it's never as easy as that. Public pressure, an anti-gun prosecutor, etc. can decide you are wrong. For that matter, if the police investigator thinks your are wrong he/she can slant their report in that directon too. You had better be able to intelligently and clearly articulate the threat against you or another if you end up using lethal force.

I am glad Ohio has a concealed carry law. Now, if we could only get activist judges and sniveling lawyers removed we'd be a much safer, saner place.

garryc
September 2, 2006, 01:36 PM
Now, if we could only get activist judges and sniveling lawyers removed we'd be a much safer, saner place.

Yeah, and get rid of the sniveling protesters and thier dread locks who protest every time a cop shoots a thug. Funny, a Cleveland cop was killed the other day, no demonstrations, nothing.

Maybe if those demonstrators would have their kids get an education, stop telling them they are victims of society and stop telling them they are owed, this crap would stop. teach these kids to depend on themselves for support rather that welfare and crime. Mean while I get to deal with the low life thugs. I'd trade my job for the day that it is no longer needed.

How about this: You cops and us C/O's get together and go to cleveland in the hood with signs calling them a bunch of low life crimminal scum.

S.Miller
September 2, 2006, 01:49 PM
garry, many minorities where I work have the attitude that they can do what they want without interference. That's not always criminal behavior, but some of it is. When they are trading punches we're told that it's not fighting, just their culture. When brawls break out at their social events we are blamed for letting it happen. If we use pepper spray we are cursed for that. If we make arrests then we're said to have abused our authority. We cannot win for losing.

The problem is that our government has seen fit to give handout after handout to certain sects of our society. Eventually, these sects come to expect these things as though they are a birthright. If you point out the unfairness of this they will answer that no one would allow them to do certain things or obtain certain jobs, so the handouts are necessary. In other words, were it not for the government programs the white man would continue to keep them down. Where do they get this idea from? Liberal politicians who still see racism behind every corner, as if it were still 1860. Also from public "leaders", who don't insist on hard work and self-sufficiency, but instead want the government to empower people instead of them doing it on their own. They also see racism around every corner, despite themselves having risen to (allegedly) successful levels, being very rich and having great amounts of influence.

It's a vicious circle that our government has enacted and we all suffer for it. Truth be told, the minorities suffer as well and the whole practice not only keeps race relations from improving, it actually further polarizes them.

garryc
September 2, 2006, 01:59 PM
It's a vicious circle that our government has enacted and we all suffer for it. Truth be told, the minorities suffer as well and the whole practice not only keeps race relations from improving, it actually further polarizes them.

That's because there is power in controlling a conflict. If it were not for racial conflict then many of the so called leaders, both civil rights leaders and politicians, would dry up like a **** in the desert

Para Bellum
September 8, 2006, 02:37 PM
Para,

How do you KNOW he ONLY wants your car? How do you KNOW you are "getting out of the situation" at all, unless YOU take action? You trust him because he says so, while he is (at the least) robbing you? OK - so you got out, he got in, and now he is driving away...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger.

I refer to a specific situation where I end up alive out of the car and the BG is in my car.

...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger. I am not excited about the idea to work several months so that a BG can have a car like mine for free...

Glockoma
September 20, 2006, 07:13 PM
The stories coming from SA, and the crime statistics, just boggle the mind.

So... can anyone name a former colony in sub-Saharan Africa where the arrival of independence and black-governance has not yielded total disaster and has not turned the place into an uninhabitable ****hole? Is there a single success story?

garryc
September 20, 2006, 11:52 PM
So... can anyone name a former colony in sub-Saharan Africa where the arrival of independence and black-governance has not yielded total disaster and has not turned the place into an uninhabitable ****hole? Is there a single success story?

I'VE HEARD THAT MOGADESHU, SOMALIA WAS A PEARL WHEN IT WAS UNDER COLONIAL RULE, NOW IT'S THE &^%$HOLE OF THE WORLD

Mrgee03
September 26, 2006, 08:31 PM
I just happened upon this thread and the racism is mind boggling.I am a Black man, a Veteran, a college graduate, a computer engineer with a wife who is also Black works and goes to college (no loans or grants) two children, three dogs (Brown) I have always worked and have never been given any government handouts. I have a CPL so that means no criminal record, the reason I have a CPL is the same reason those of you that have one got yours, Protection.Sorry for this rant but I thought this was about self defense NOT YOUR OPINIONS ON MINORITIES I deal with racism regularly so I should probably be accustomed to it. Can we just stay on point with the subject of the thread ?

Capt Charlie
September 26, 2006, 09:45 PM
Sorry for this rant but I thought this was about self defense NOT YOUR OPINIONS ON MINORITIES I deal with racism regularly so I should probably be accustomed to it. Can we just stay on point with the subject of the thread ?
With apologies to MrGee03, he is correct. I've only had time over the last few weeks to hit and run on some of these threads, and didn't note this one spiraling out of control.

I'm not going to close this thread yet, because the issue of carjacking is a very timely one, and up until thread veer, it was also productive. However, if it isn't back on track right quick... well, another one bites the dust.

orionengnr
September 26, 2006, 10:10 PM
If there are instances that include individuals described accurately, and that offends you, then you own that.

My local news, when describing the perpetrator of a crime, will now say, "witnesses describe the suspect as ...a male". Wow. Was he old, young, tall, short, white, asian, hispanic, or black? No, they will not say, for fear of offending someone. Never mind the fact that the description is absolutely useless for any sort of identification. Have you seen this man? He is...a male! Political Correctness has run rampant...

Mrgee03
September 27, 2006, 05:33 AM
Ok here we go ! Read the posts from smiller and garyc and tell me what the racial remarks have to do with defending yourself in a carjacking. I live in Detroit where carjackers come in both black and white so maybe i'm wrong but does the defense you use depend on the race of the BG? and don't ever think that I am a liberal or believe in political correctness a person has the right to say whatever they want, I served in the military to defend this and all the other rights we have. I just really find the different viewpoints here interesting and many times helpful.I just don't like the generalisations on minorites no race of people has all good or all bad if a black guy attacks you then that is him not the whole race and if the attacker is white the same holds true.I value the opinions and experience of many members here and have learned alot I just don't think it is necessary to bring race into it unless it has to do with a specific incident. Sorry this is my last rant( I promise)

Capt Charlie
September 27, 2006, 11:30 AM
This has gotten completely off topic, and I can't see it getting any better.

Closed.

If someone wants to start another thread on carjacking... minus the racial references, feel free.