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springmom
August 9, 2006, 10:23 PM
Well, the hubster is in the hospital :( Among other things, this means I'm going in and out of a parking garage to go into the hospital, which is posted with one of those pernicious Texas 30.06 signs (the legal "thou shalt not carry a gun in here" signs.) I have to admit, I was very tempted to ignore that sign. But I didn't...the gun got locked up securely in the car, and off I've gone into the hospital.

Then tonight, I opted to come home a little early, while it was still light out, because I've had a very bad feeling about the vulnerability of people going alone in and out of that garage. I left the hospital, very much condition orange, very alert. I asked my son to walk me to my car and then I would drive him to his, but he did not want to do that, so I ended up going to the garage alone. As I walked out of the hospital, the security guard walked away from the garage, going somewhere down the sidewalk on the other side of the street out of sight. I crossed the street to the garage, and immediately saw a group of men sitting at a corner. I kept an eye on them as I walked to the garage, and as I got to where I'd turn into the garage, sure enough, here came one old guy straight toward me. The elevator is visible from the corner where these dudes were sitting, so he knew where I was going.

As I hit the button on the elevator, he sidles up to me with a big old grin on his face. I looked at him, and thought, "I don't THINK SO." I glanced at my purse, mumbed, "Oh, I forgot..." and turned on my heel and went right back to the hospital.

I had hoped to find either a security guard or somebody at the information desk who could call for one, but no luck. However, there WAS a nurse leaving after her shift. Since the employees and the visitors share the same garage, I spun back around and headed back toward the garage. We walked more or less together to the elevator, where I got off at my floor, and with my keys in my fist just in case Creepy The Wonder Bum had gotten out there, made it to my car safely.

I posted this because, first of all, I want to thank all of you who have written extensively on this forum about being in Condition Yellow (or Orange, whichever :p ) because every time I've read it, it's gone just that little bit deeper into my mind, and became just that little bit more automatic when I needed it. Second, as a cautionary tale...there was a time not all THAT long ago when I would have, in a fit of optimism about my fellow man, gone ahead and gotten into that elevator. Maybe I would have been just fine. But maybe not. Too many women in this city have been victims since I've lived here for me to have that optimism anymore. And third, to rant just a bit about businesses that post 30.06 signs and then do not take the responsibility to secure their garages and grounds from people who have no reason to be there, to ensure safe passage and usage for people who DO need to be there.

I jokingly told Archerandshooter tonight, before I left his room, that if I was mugged tonight, he should sue the pants off that place because it would surely be their fault. I'd love to see every 30.06 in the state taken down. I'll be writing the hospital administration this week, and I feel an article coming on as well.

But thanks to you all for sharpening my awareness. Once again, I'm home safe and sound, and in part because of y'all.

Springmom

OneInTheChamber
August 9, 2006, 10:45 PM
Hope your husband heals well from whatever is hurting him. Glad you were okay.

But, I asked my son to walk me to my car and then I would drive him to his, but he did not want to do that, so I ended up going to the garage alone SMACK!!! :mad: That's not cool.

As for the 30.06 signs, isn't it funny that that happens to be one of the greatest calibers, yet they chose it to represent a no carry zone?

Shaun
August 9, 2006, 10:46 PM
although i feel you should be allowed to carry your pistol....there are going to be times when you cant, im sure a heavy dose of OC spray would work wonders on most assailants. having that in your purse could be an excellent backup plan.

JohnKSa
August 9, 2006, 10:47 PM
Given the value of human life, I suppose that if a person were truly worried about visiting an area unarmed and yet had no choice in the matter but to go into the area anyway, they might wish to carry regardless of the law.

I find this section in the TX law relating to carry in hospitals to be quite interesting:

ยง 46.035. (h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

I'm not a lawyer, but my read of that bit of legislation means that if one were to actually need a handgun (and happened to have one handy regardless of the signs posted), one could not be convicted for the trespass offense. ('Tis important to note that one could be still be arrested and tried but that if deadly force were shown to be justified, the trespass charge would have to be dropped.)

Syntax360
August 9, 2006, 10:55 PM
As Shaun pointed out, a can of OC is excellent when those sinister 30.06's come around. You definitely had a bit of a moral dilemma on your hands - life vs. law and all... Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where ridiculous decisions like these didn't exist? Writing the hospital administration is a great move - all us fellow CHL holders sincerely appreciate the effort ;)

Epyon
August 9, 2006, 10:57 PM
"Oh, when you meant 30.06 I thought you meant no calibers past that range officer! So I guess carrying my pistol should be fine then right? Okay cool have a nice day!":D

Springmom, good to know you're safe, and I hope your husband gets better. As for the pepper spray idea, my girlfriend sometimes has to stay out late finish school projects and recently crime has gone up in the UCF area. Mostly punks that are ages 17-25 (sad that they are my age, gives the rest of us law abiding miscreants a bad name.) I think I should get her some pepper spray as an option. Could anyone recommend a good affordable brand?


Epyon


P.S: Come to think of it, I should probably carry pepper spray too since I can't exacly carry to the places I have to be at such as school or work, that and I also don't have a concealed carry permit.

springmom
August 9, 2006, 11:04 PM
I've avoided pepper spray up until now out of concern for my own well being. If I spray that stuff and it comes back at me, I am at far greater risk for incapacitation, because of asthma, than the BG I might spray. However, I'm re-thinking this. What I'd like to find is something that will direct it in a stream rather than an aerosolized spray that I might end up breathing in myself.

Thanks for the good wishes for the hubster. He was taken ill yesterday at work and went in through the ER yesterday. Tests tomorrow should confirm a diagnosis. As of now, looks like no surgery (yay!) but probably some continued medical care. He needs to hurry up and get well. It's way too lonesome around here after 25 years of marriage. :)

Springmom

Epyon
August 9, 2006, 11:10 PM
It's way too lonesome around here after 25 years of marriage.

Wow! 25 years, it seems it's hard for some people to even be married for 25 WEEKS before being divorced... my girlfriend and I have faith in each other and are taking our time on tying the knot though, at least until we both finish college. As for alternatives for pepper spray, what about something similar to a tazer, how about a knife or collapsable baton?


Epyon

P.S: I once dropped a collapsable baton by accident from my waist and hit my big toenail, it was bruised black after just a suddend drop with no heavy force behind it.

azurefly
August 9, 2006, 11:19 PM
I have to admit, I was very tempted to ignore that sign. But I didn't...the gun got locked up securely in the car, and off I've gone into the hospital.

You would not be the first Texan woman who regretted not ignoring such a sign...if something really bad were to go down in that place... :(


-azurefly

azurefly
August 9, 2006, 11:25 PM
My best to your husband.

You should send that letter to the hospital and anyone connected with it, and if they smack you down about it and give you some b.s. anti-gun party line

then you should also make them wait as absolutely long as possible for payment from you -- as long as you can wait without making the debt go to collection. :p Screw 'em!


-azurefly

Benzene
August 9, 2006, 11:41 PM
Let me first say congrats to you, springmom, for (1) 25 years of marriage; (2) the sensible way in which you handled the siutation [IMO]. And I join with those who wish your other half a speedy recovery.

I have a buddy who laughs at us who expose ourselves to the challenges of acquiring and keeping a CCL (widely varying fees for something guaranteed in our Constitution, expensive equipment, rising cost of practicing, etc.) only to be told YOU CAN'T CARRY HERE! Further, if you use the darn thing, you are liable to be sued by the parasitic family of the dead BG to the extent that you might have to commit suicide! He often cites the North Hollywood shooting, which gets aired on MSNBC often enough.

His punch line = "Of what real use is that piece of plastic and the piece of steel in that expensive leather rig you cherish so much?"

I'm not comfortable.

azurefly
August 10, 2006, 12:10 AM
Benzene, some might refer you to the adage, "It is better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6."


No one says that you have to use the gun just because you have it on you: it's an OPTION that a person carrying a gun has, that a person not carrying a gun will not get to even consider if TSHTF on him.


-azurefly

JJB2
August 10, 2006, 12:40 AM
my spousal unit has carried oc spray in her purse for years... please get some!! stay safe and best wishes and prayers for your husband..... sometimes it's really nice to live in a small town.... you know who the @&&holes are...........

Bud Helms
August 10, 2006, 02:59 AM
Springmom,

Is it just possible, given the almost confrontation you experienced and given that you are legally licensed to carry, that you would have a defensible position were you to be caught carrying in this particular prohibited zone? Your life and well-being traded off against your law-abiding tendency to obey the .30-06 signs might be ... well, I don't advocate or encourage breaking state laws, so I won't. It might be appropriate to report the incident to the hospital and NOT mention your license. 'Just a thought. What a tragedy it would be for you to be hurt while visiting the hubster in the hospital. Remember Killeen.

azurefly
August 10, 2006, 03:41 AM
Ms. Gratia-Hupp was indeed the one I was referencing in my first post in this thread.

She learned the hard way (and made magnificent changes happen, I would add) so that others should not have to.


-azurefly

Baba Louie
August 10, 2006, 06:09 AM
I've always thought that the 30.06 signs forbidding carry of weapons were:
a. just for the bad guys who probably ignore them in the first place
b. invitations for the bad guys to lurk nearby knowing that almost everyone else will be unarmed
c. a CYA for the business placing the sign, in the event that something untoward happens thay can point to the sign afterward and say "SEE?" and thus wash their hands of any responsiblity, legally & financially... even if their unarmed patrons who cannot remember Luby's get slaughtered (tho that's kinda bad for business in a way, isn't it?).

So I've pretty much decided that concealed means concealed and unless I've got to pass thru a metal detector, what some people don't know can sure save my bacon, if need be... 'sides that, my vision isn't what it used to be and I oftentimes have "other things" on my aging mind to the point that I can look directly at a sign but find my mind wandering back to and focussed on the group of scruffy ner-do-wells congregating around in the parking garage/lot... but, like all things in life, ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

springmom, take care of yer man, tell him we say "hey", continue scanning for trouble and remember that (modified) old adage "You don't need a pistol until you need one right now, really badly".

Double Naught Spy
August 10, 2006, 06:33 AM
springmom, why do you blame Houston for the hospital's 30.06 policy?

No doubt your hubster was in that hospital in Houston because Spring didn't have the care needed at its facilities or with the docs you wanted, right?

FYI, while I have not been to many hospitals since carrying, probably 3 or 4, all had 30.06 signs posted and none were in Houston.

Epyon
August 10, 2006, 07:23 AM
Write not only to your hospital. What if you organized a group of people with you to write letters to local officials to push to do away with the absurd "COMMIT VIOLENT CRIME HERE" signs?


Epyon

Trip20
August 10, 2006, 07:36 AM
springmom, why do you blame Houston for the hospital's 30.06 policy?...

...FYI, while I have not been to many hospitals since carrying, probably 3 or 4, all had 30.06 signs posted and none were in Houston.

She may have been referring to Houston having a higher criminal, or general dirt-ball element -- rather than blaming Houston for the hospital's sign:

Too many women in this city have been victims...

CDH
August 10, 2006, 08:00 AM
Springmom said:
I've avoided pepper spray up until now out of concern for my own well being. If I spray that stuff and it comes back at me, I am at far greater risk for incapacitation, because of asthma, than the BG I might spray. However, I'm re-thinking this. What I'd like to find is something that will direct it in a stream rather than an aerosolized spray that I might end up breathing in myself.

It's funny you should say that because I never carried pepper spray before either.
A funny thing happened, however. Well, not a funny thing, but a realization.

After going through the CCW course and then "officially" being allowed to carry a deadly weapon, I was struck with the idea that a lot of responsibility comes with that. So at the exact same time I began carrying a pistol, I also decided to have pepper spray available as a (perhaps) first line of defense. I reasoned that if the pepper spray didn't stop someone, then I would be even more justified to shoot at that point (a nice extra touch for my defense in court).
Plus, I reason that if an attacker does choose to continue at me, he would be more distracted after being sprayed than he would otherwise making him an easier target.
Another thing to think about is that you would probably not walk to your car with a gun in your hand on a regular basis, while you can always walk with the pepper spray in your hand and ready to go at a fraction of a second. Drawing a firearm takes longer than triggering the spray that's already in your hand with your finger on the release, and once you've sprayed the BG, you have bought yourself more time to draw your firearm if need be.
If you carry the pepper spray in your off hand, you leave your other hand available to draw your lethal force weapon so you gain tactical advantage in one way without losing any tactical ability with your firearm.

In your particular incident, even though you made the right decision to not go on the elevator, he could still have grabbed for you so having pepper spray in that case would have been a great (and legally carried) defense.

I have settled on the Spitfire because it is very safe to carry with it's spring trigger, and if you're attacked in your car, it is designed to be quickly yanked off of it's lanyard without having to fumble with taking your keys out of the ignition, and more importantly, without having to turn off your car and lose your best and fastest means of escape.

Think about it.

http://www.spitfire.us/index.htm

Carter

springmom
August 10, 2006, 08:46 AM
...Sorry, doublenaughtspy, I wasn't clear. Yes, I was criticizing Houston for its crime rate, not its 30.06's. :p Most places, including most of my doctors, don't post those things. You are right, many hospitals post the signs. And as property owners, of course they have the *right*. I just wish they'd have taken the *responsibility* to have an security escort service into the garage, as lots of places do. When I went back into the lobby, that's what I went back looking for. I'll grumble at them about the 30.06 when I speak to them, but I'll strongly suggest that they beef up their security and provide an escort for anyone requesting it.

Oh, and I wasn't utterly defenseless, Carter. I hold my keys in my fist when I walk such places unarmed, with one key sticking out between my index and third fingers. Taught that long ago by our local sheriff for self defense, and while I've never had to use it, I imagine it would, um, create enough of an owie to buy me some time to escape (except in an elevator :) )

I will pass on y'all's good wishes and prayers. Off for now...

Springmom

Doug.38PR
August 10, 2006, 09:45 AM
Hope your husband heals well from whatever is hurting him. Glad you were okay.

+1

But,
Quote:
I asked my son to walk me to my car and then I would drive him to his, but he did not want to do that, so I ended up going to the garage alone

SMACK!!! That's not cool.

+1

You gotta love living in Houston! NOT.


+1

Creepy The Wonder Bum

LOL


Memorial Hospital on the west side has one of those 30.06 signs too. :mad: My mom has just got through going through breast cancer and chemotherapy and that was where she was staying every now and then.

Katy Mills Mall is another 30.06 place. I refuse to shop or go to movies there anymore.

I don't like Houston for a lot of reasons. The crime rate is one of them between the illegals and Katrina refugees, they bring in a lot of garbage with their gangs, drugs and vagrants. Not that Houston was crime free before either of these elements arrived. Don't care for big cities in general. That's one of many reasons I want to move to Louisiana.

18DAI
August 10, 2006, 09:57 AM
I encourage everyone to obey their state, local and federal laws. That said, there are times, and places, to focus on the concealed part of CCW. I'm sure the hospital has signs posted for "No Trespassing", or the standard, "No loitering". Yet, you are subject to walking past bums in the garage doing both. Every jurisdiction is different in it's interpetation of the, no guns allowed come rob us signs. In alot of places, if discovered CCW, you must be asked to leave, and fail to do so, before being charged. Check the statutes for your area. Never count on security, I can't tell you how many assault cases I've had, where the only good security did, was to be a poor witness. My last observation, and I sincerly mean no offense to anyone, but if my wife asked my son to walk her to the garage, and he declined, there would be another assault to investigate when I got out of the hospital. YMMV. Regards 18DAI.

john in jax
August 10, 2006, 10:37 AM
I think you really need a stun gun - not for self-defense, but to help you train your son not to let his mom walk into a potentially dangerous situation alone.

stevekolt
August 10, 2006, 12:13 PM
Glad you're OK, and hope your husband is up and around soon. Very uncool on your son's part though...:mad:

M1911
August 10, 2006, 12:37 PM
I asked my son to walk me to my car and then I would drive him to his, but he did not want to do that, so I ended up going to the garage alone.Time to have a "talk" with your son.

Maveri9720
August 10, 2006, 03:25 PM
Hey all.

SpringMom,

I just got done doing research for OC spray. My permit isn't coming for a couple months and prior reading on other forums has prompted me to start carrying another means of force, other than deadly. I personally believe if you are going to CC a gun, that you should also have a non-lethal weapon also, b/c every situation you find yourself in is not going to be life and death.

So, after my research, it became clear that Fox was a tried and true brand of OC. I got my wife a bottle to carry with her and also got her a keychain bottle. And I got one for myself to carry around.

This wasn't any factor for me, but it is good anyway, that having a non-lethal weapon on you makes you a more responsible and credible person in the eyes of the jury/judge, b/c you have more than just lethal means to use before you pull your deadly force weapon. Now whether you actually use it, is a different animal, but the option of it being there lends more credibility to your case to handle all situations and be able to use the force appropiate to what was shown to you. As opposed to someone who just carried a gun, so there only means to handle a situation is to use their gun.

Again, this has been my reading of prior posts, relating to court cases and how people in court view CCW with other means to handle situations other than deadly.

I recommend Fox labs and if you do some research on it, you will see the big following they have. And they do have stream applications that spray for 15' or so and have the least amount of blowback. They also have new stuff that is actually a gel and I think that has less blowback than stream, but the downside is that the BG can sling it off of his face back towards you and hit you with it. So I stayed with the stream.

Hope your hubby gets well soon and look up the OC spray and get yourself some.

P.S. When you do, spray your son to test it for not helping his mom out.

P.S.S Here's the link where I got mine. Extremely quick service, nice, good communication and good prices: http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm

springmom
August 10, 2006, 07:54 PM
Well, Youngest Son and I will be having a talk tonight when he gets home from work. His ears must be burning from all the comments here, LOL. And although there won't be another assault to investigate, I know Archerandshooter will be having a talk with him too.

The hubster is feeling better, got some solid food today (I think the one is linked to the other :D ) and will, God willing, be home tomorrow night. Haven't gotten the official diagnosis yet, but did get most of the test results back and they're pretty consistent with what the ER doc said, so it's treatable and no surgery necessary. Good news.


RE: OC spray. I went by Gander Mtn. this morning and picked up some OC spray (Saber brand, I believe). It will do for now, but I'll keep looking for the best type.

I was pleased to see the security guard parked in front of the garage right by the elevator tonight when I left. But I had the OC spray in my hand, just in case ;)

Again, many, many thanks to you all. This really is a great bunch of people, and I enjoy 'knowing' you all on this list.

Springmom

mgdavis
August 10, 2006, 08:37 PM
I used to work security in a hospital, and we did do escorts when requested. You might have to find a phone and dial "0" to get the operator, at our hospital they had a radio and the number for the security managers' pager and cell phone. You might have to exersize patience sometimes though, they only have a few guards to cover the whole facility and associated details. I know we got busy sometimes and it would take a few minutes to get around to an escort detail.

Here is a link to the Fox Labs (http://www.foxlabs.net/Products.html) page, dunno if anybody dropped it yet, or if you found it on your own, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

JJB2
August 11, 2006, 01:01 PM
one more thing about oc spray s.m. spray the creep and get the hell out of there!!!!! don't wait around for him to recover and get a hold of you..... glad to hear your husband is doing better...................



LIFE IS SHORT............

spacemanspiff
August 11, 2006, 01:11 PM
Oh, and I wasn't utterly defenseless, Carter. I hold my keys in my fist when I walk such places unarmed, with one key sticking out between my index and third fingers. Taught that long ago by our local sheriff for self defense, and while I've never had to use it, I imagine it would, um, create enough of an owie to buy me some time to escape
Okay springmom....nows the chance to get yourself a nice folding pocket knife, or if your state allows, one of those 'assisted openers'. Doesn't have to be expensive or fancy, benchmades are nice, right now I'm enamored with a Sig Sauer knife, good edge, opens smoothly and fast.

Not to mention a surefire flashlight can give you a little bit more of an edge on your opponent. I suggest the L2 Lumamax, 100 lumens of white LED is pretty darn bright.

Those are just a few of my favorite things to have with me when I can't carry a gun. One more thing, a useful accessory to help hide your intentions is to wear sunglasses. You can pretend you arent paying attention to the threat while you in fact are.

dawg23
August 11, 2006, 03:17 PM
Double Naught Spy:

I thought it was illegal to carry in any hospitals in Texas (prohibited carry locations under Texas' CCW law).



Spingmom:

FoxLabs makes three types of sprays (nozzles). One is a "fog", one is a "cone" and one is a "stream."

Check out the stream. It is slightly (or maybe quite a bit) less effective than the fog and cone in stopping bad guys, but there is very litle way for it to blow back on you. It is like a water pistol stream.

springmom
August 11, 2006, 09:07 PM
He's home. More doctor visits next week but he's home. Again, many thanks to you all.

Dawg23, it is no longer illegal by definition to carry in hospitals. As of 9/1/05 hospitals, like churches and other places, must post the 30.06 in legal format in order to be "posted".

Monday, I write the hospital. Then I start an article on rights and responsibilities and 30.06 signs :D

Springmom

Epyon
August 11, 2006, 11:14 PM
Tell them that .30-06 should be what goes in the rifle, not in anti-gun legilsation!:D


Epyon

pickpocket
August 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
Yes, Springmom was criticizing Houston's crime rate, but she would not be too far remiss if she actually DID criticize Houston (a little) for the refusal of many businesses to allow legal and lawful concealed carry on premise. Most of Texas (especially in these circles) knows how decidedly unfriendly the Harris County DA is towards the state's CHL program and ultimately the individuals carrying CHL's.

Springmom - glad it all turned out ok. However, it's my uneducated opinion that your son needs a little "Come-to-Jesus" talk. 5 minutes of inconvenience would have been worth avoiding the possibilities.

Deaf Smith
August 12, 2006, 10:28 PM
You guys do notice the 30.06 signs apply to handguns and not to rifles or shotguns. So I guess if you hand an overnight bag on your arm, with a folding stock M1 Carbine or such, it would be legal (even without a permit.) Funny, no?

azurefly
August 14, 2006, 07:04 PM
pickpocket:
Should I take it that Houston is Texas' answer to Denver? I mean that in the sense that even though these states are in "the West," these cities seem to not have kept the tradition of armed defense and the utility of the firearm. (According to stuff I've read here and elsewhere, Denver and some other CO cities are too "cosmopolitan" these days to be gun-friendly.)


springmom:
You are right, many hospitals post the signs. And as property owners, of course they have the *right*. I just wish they'd have taken the *responsibility* to have an security escort service into the garage, as lots of places do. When I went back into the lobby, that's what I went back looking for. I'll grumble at them about the 30.06 when I speak to them, but I'll strongly suggest that they beef up their security and provide an escort for anyone requesting it.

I suggest making a strong point of telling them that while they may think their "30.06" sign protects them (even if they are not foolish enough to actually believe it's gonna prevent crime :rolleyes: ), they are acting blind to the fact that their dismal security provisions expose them to far more liability.

I would make comments to them that intimate the menace of the hospital being sued because someone was mugged on their property and their security could be shown to be inadequate. That kind of suit has been going on more and more these days, it seems. Even movie theaters are being held "responsible" when people get robbed in their parking lots. (I don't necessarily agree that every business has a responsibility to "protect" every patron as he/she goes through the parking lot, though. Just where does a company's responsibility end, then?! What if "security" accompanied someone but then they ALL got robbed or hurt?!)

As for the keys-between-the-fingers thing... I view this suggestion as on a parallel with "just give them what they want and you'll be alright": I think it's a nonsensical random suggestion whose validity has been accepted without being at all proved, and it was probably thought up by some anti-gunner who felt pressured to answer the question, "Well if I can't use a gun, what do you think I should do?"

I think that if you hit someone using your keys that way, you're probably far more likely to injure yourself than to find that it was some devastatingly effective self-defense improvised weapon.


-azurefly

springmom
August 14, 2006, 07:23 PM
Houston is predominantly very friendly to CHL's. Hospitals and doctor's offices (and not too many of the latter) are the most likely places to find 30.06's. I *very* rarely have to disarm before going in anywhere. Oh, yeah, and Taco Cabana :D

As for a "devastatingly effective weapon"...did I say that was what the keys were? No. That was taught to me back in college at a time when I didn't carry a gun and knew no one who did. It predates pepper spray. There's really no need to be snarky.

Springmom

pickpocket
August 15, 2006, 12:26 PM
Springmom is correct, Houston isn't nearly as bad as Denver. The real problem lies with the County DA.
For example - when the State's revised "travel" law came into effect (which was purposefully left fairly vague), the Harris Co. DA specifically stated that going to the grocery store is NOT travelling and that he can/will prosecute.

I met the guy once, and while I know one meeting doesn't completely tell the whole story, it still left me underwhelmed and tends to overshadow all of my conversations about him. About one week before my last deployment to Iraq, I was home visiting my wife and I got pulled over and ticketed for speeding. No problem, I was slightly speeding - less than 10 over (by the hated guy in the middle of the road with a radar gun) and I explained to the officer that I needed to be able to remedy the ticket BEFORE it worked its way through the system since I wasn't even going to be in country in three weeks. He said "talk to the DA"... fine. Off we go the next day.
When we get to the DA's office and ask to speak with him, we end up waiting for about 10 minutes and then he talks to us as though we're preventing him from collecting his winning lottery ticket. When I explained my situation, and the fact that I was shipping out later that week - all he said was to leave my information and that he would have my court date rescheduled for the next year and whoosh - out the door..not a hello, goodbye, thanks, have a nice life, don't get killed....nothing. Umm...thanks.

Unfortunatley, that one meeting has marked him in my memory as a not-so-nice person.


Oh - and if you have nothing else, there is nothing wrong with "keys in the hand"... I know I don't want to get punched in the face with a car key.

Samurai
August 15, 2006, 02:51 PM
First, to springmom, way to go. You handled the situation quite well.

But, it occurs to me... You were correct in going back inside for an escort regardless of whether you were carrying, no? Whenever you feel weird about a situation, you should never simply trust on your gun to protect you. You should always bail out of the uncomfortable situation and get help, right?

I just noticed that everyone is complaining about the gun bans in the garage. But, the presence of a handgun shouldn't have changed your course of action. You still should have done exactly what you did, i.e. go back inside and find an escort.

Just a thought...

springmom
August 15, 2006, 04:15 PM
Samurai, you are correct. That thought came to me the next day. (Not that I remembered to post that...:p ) The danger would be if somebody slipped into the elevator at the last second before I'd seen them, or if they were waiting when I opened the door at my floor.

I'm just glad the whole thing's over. Now that life is back to normal, tomorrow I write the hospital.

Springmom

ArcherAndShooter
August 15, 2006, 08:43 PM
out of the hospital and back to at least 50% and getting better. I actually managed half a day at work today. Feels good to be back.

Thanks for the kind words, thoughts, and prayers, everyone.

Springmom and I celebrated that wonderful annual holiday this afternoon: TX hunting licenses went on sale today, and we now have ours! :cool: SuperCombos with all stamps, Federal duck stamps, and Annual Public Hunting permits.
:D :D :D

Thanks, again, all.

azurefly
August 16, 2006, 12:56 AM
Samurai,
While I agree that the gun should not be viewed as the free pass to go anywhere no matter how dangerous it seems, I don't think it was a moot point that it would have been nice if springmom had been able to have the gun with her. After all, once she encountered the weirdo(s) and they noticed her, even though she went directly back toward where security was eventually found, what if they had pounced and prevented her from even doing that much?

Sure, if you are walking toward your car in a dark parking lot and you see two guys lurking right near it, you'd be foolish to proceed on to your car regardless of whether you have a gun or not. But even if you do the wise thing and decide to turn around and get help from police, security, etc., that doesn't mean you are not about to be noticed and possibly attacked by the same suspicious people you so wisely turned and walked away from.

So even while acknowledging that the gun should not be considered a shield that enables you to go anywhere safely, it might still be necessary even if you do the wise thing each and every time you decide you're in condition orange.


-azurefly

springmom
August 16, 2006, 09:45 AM
Here's the text of the letter that's going out in today's mail:

August 16, 2006

Office of the Administrator
Houston Northwest Medical Center
710 FM 1960 West
Houston TX 77090-3496

Dear sir or madam;

My husband was a patient in your hospital from August 8 through August 11. We cannot in any way fault the care he received, and were impressed by personnel who cared for him.

However, I want to call your attention to the fact that your parking garage is simply not a safe place. While I know you have security guards, I must relate an incident that occurred on the night of the 9th that was extremely disturbing.

First, let me note that I have a concealed handgun license in accordance with the laws of the state of Texas. Normally, I carry a gun, especially given the increasing crime rate in our city and county. However, your facility is posted with a 30.06 sign, that prohibits concealed handgun licensees from carrying for self protection in your hospital. Unfortuantely, the effect of that is that we cannot also carry on our way in and out of your hospital, and therein lies the problem.

I had left my husband?s bedside before dark, having been uneasy in my coming and going from that garage the previous day. A group of bums were sitting on the corner across from the garage and across from the Metro stop. As I left the hospital, the security guard on duty wandered off into the hospital proper. I walked toward the garage, and as it became clear that I was going to the elevator, one of the bums made a bee line to me. I pushed the button and he walked up, standing quite close, with an expression I can only describe as a leer on his face. I knew if I got into that elevator, there was going to be trouble.

I turned on my heel and walked right back into the hospital, searching for another guard, or someone I could call for an escort to my car. There were no volunteers manning the information desk, no signs that gave directions as to how to call for an escort, and no guards anywhere in sight. I stood there for a few minutes, until a nurse who was getting off her shift walked by, and in a flash of inspiration, turned and walked behind her to the elevator.

When I had ?beat it? back to the hospital, the old bum who accosted me and his buddies all scampered; likely because they figured I was looking for a police officer So the nurse and I rode up the elevator together. When I got to my floor, I walked as fast as possible to my car.

I realize that under Texas state law, you all have the right to post a 30.06 sign in your facility. I also realize that, even had I been armed, my leaving to find a guard was a better option than simply getting into the elevator with Creepy the Wonder Bum. Still, let me suggest to you that facilities that choose to deny the right to self defense to their patrons bear a responsibility to provide serious security for those patrons, and a guard who leaves his post needs to be covered by someone else. Or else there need to be two or more guards for that garage, PLUS an escort service for any woman walking alone. And for Pete?s sake, chase the bums off your property. They don?t have a constitutional right to be there. It?s not public property, and they harass your clients!

Too many women in this city are raped, robbed, and even murdered for you not to take this seriously. My own preference, far and away, would be for you to take down the 30.06 signs and allow your clients and your staff their Constitutional right to bear arms in self defense. I can tell you for sure: any bad guys who are going to use guns in your facility will never be deterred by that sign. Only the law-abiding citizens are disarmed by that thing anyway.

However, if you refuse to do this (and again, it is your right under Texas law to have it), then PLEASE: institute an escort service for any client or any employee who must walk into that garage at any time, day or night, and who requests it.

I?m alive and well after my little encounter. Too many women in Houston each year cannot say the same. Please help by seriously addressing your security problem.

Thank you.

Sincerely,



***It will be interesting to see what, if any, reply I receive. Stay tuned...

Springmom

General P.
August 16, 2006, 11:13 AM
Was told by a friend, who is a surgeon, that at some hospitals doctors are advised to carry firearms because some crooks are after drugs, thus the firearms. Might be interesting if the 30.06 applies to employees [doctors]whose employers advise or even require them to be armed. Wonder if yu would get the truth if asked?

threegun
August 16, 2006, 11:36 AM
Springmom, It is my understanding (at least here in Florida) that a sign posted prohibiting guns on private property at the property owners discretion is not actionable in criminal law. The most that can be done is for you to be asked to leave the premises. Only places listed as illegal to carry are actionable.

I will carry anywhere not actionable period. I don't care how big the sign. If it isn't a place of nuisance, government facility, etc. my gun comes with me. Besides how will anyone know but you and the bad guy? Unless you shoot that is.

As for my son...........he would be thanking god I was in the hospital. If either of my boys did that to Mom. How old is the son?

pickpocket
August 16, 2006, 11:50 AM
In Texas, an offense under the 30.06 statute is a Class A Misdemeanor.
An offense under 46.03 (Prohibited Places) is a Felony.

springmom
August 16, 2006, 12:30 PM
Threegun, he is 17. He has apologized and realizes he was stupid. (Or is that a repetition in terms?):rolleyes:


Pickpocket is correct about the legal ramifications, although there is one stipulation that has been mentioned earlier in this thread, which I'll highlight, below...quoting from the Texas Penal Code, sec. 46.035:

(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree. {these last relate to carrying where a business derives more than 51% of its revenue from alcohol and has a posted "51% sign" and a correctional facility}

and further....

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9. (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

That last little bit, by the way, meant that I was legal when I went in a week ago Tuesday into the ER with him, because THAT entrance lacks a 30.06. But the OTHER entrances don't which means I was "given effective notice". Da rats.

But...had I carried anyway, and had to use it because the zombies came down the hall to carry someone away :D I would have had a "defense to prosecution" under the statutes.

Springmom

dad23honu
August 20, 2006, 09:27 PM
A lot of us old schoolers out here are glad your son learned a lesson and will not repeat what happened on the 9th. I have three boys and I'm beating (figuratively) into them to take care of the women in their lives (mom, girlfriends, etc.) and this means standing in harm's way between the woman and the bad guy(s).

Glad you're OK Springmom. Glad your husband of 25 years is back on his feet!

:D

wolfy692005
August 21, 2006, 05:21 PM
As for the 30.06 signs, isn't it funny that that happens to be one of the greatest calibers, yet they chose it to represent a no carry zone?

not from Texas but this is the first thing i picked up on...

Also, I do not know Texas law but being from MO and now FL, the laws are mostly the same, that the do not carry here signs have to be of exact demintions and paper and letter.. That was done so anyone could post a do not carry ( not the correct size) and the carry people knew this and would carry in there, the anti's who did not know any better thought they were "safe from the carrying crowd" becuse of the sign.
do not know if that is the same for you but if i felt al all threatened i would be packing.

Lastly, hope your hubby is doing better.. i hate hosbitals although i have seen the inside of my share

Ian2005
August 21, 2006, 05:36 PM
As far as I know you can't bring firearms into any Houston hospital. I know there's a sticker right here on the door here at St. Josephs hospital in downtown saying so. Of course, noone's checking bags either.:rolleyes:

azurefly
August 21, 2006, 06:58 PM
But everyone's safer, for the sticker being there. :barf:



-azurefly

Socrates
August 21, 2006, 09:01 PM
I've been thinking about this for awhile. The problems with shooting someone, in our facist state, really makes me want an alternative, and, as discussed else where, dog attacks, etc. when out for walks or runs, are a problem.

I think I've really got to spend some money at this guys store.
http://www.udap.com/

He's got some very intresting containers for personal defense. I like the pen with pepper spray in particular, and, his combo pack, one for the keys, one for jogging, and a larger one.

Probably all illegal in this county and state...

S

Sweatnbullets
August 21, 2006, 10:13 PM
I love Nevada!

I can not carry in goverment buildings and schools....that is about it. Anywhere else, all they can do is ask me to leave. I carry everywhere except the places that would put me behind bars. I do not mind being asked to leave and I would leave when I was asked.

I carry in Casinos all of the time, yes there are signs. Even with all of that surveilence, I have never been made.

I had to do jury duty at the beginning of the year. Downtown Vegas, (where the homeless come out to play) underground parking, metal detectors, the whole shibang. I brought my Surefire 6P for a week straight. Everytime the security guards looked at it....looked at me, and shook their heads. They knew what it was and what it was for. They knew that it was perfect for a "splash and bash." A weapon to blind and pummel. Yet, there was not one thing that they could do about it.....it was just a flashlight!:D

azurefly
August 22, 2006, 12:03 AM
Heh, I carried in casinos in NEW JERSEY!! LOL!

Or did I?

Hmm...

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you can do it without getting made. :cool:
And considering the craphole that you drive through to get to those casinos, you'd be wise to.


-azurefly

Socrates
August 22, 2006, 12:56 AM
This forum is fantastic! I've got to remember some of these.
Carry a small ABC fire extingusher, and a flashlight?!!!
:D Now I'm going to order for 50 bucks the three pepper spray containers, for taking the cat for a walk...

S

springmom
August 24, 2006, 12:42 PM
I received a phone call this morning from the Chief Operations Officer of the hospital with the 30.06 sign. She said that Tenet, the owning company of the faciity, has a no-guns policy. She also said she is quite aware that those signs only keep the good guys' guns out the hospital :p She was glad I had written. Apparently the hospital used to have a sign in the lobby instructing anyone who wished an escort to their car to call a certain extension and someone would come. Much to her surprise, those signs have been taken down. They will now be replaced. The hospital is also going to try and address the problem of the bums by the bus stop, a security issue that she says is longstanding and that they continue to try to work on.

At any rate, I wanted you all to get the "rest of the story" and to know that a polite letter can get some results (even if they aren't going to take down the 30.06 signs.

Springmom

azurefly
August 25, 2006, 05:20 PM
Perhaps if they didn't prohibit good guys from carrying guns, and those bums kept behaving the way that one did when you were leaving, the problem would take care of itself... ;)


-azurefly

coonan357
August 25, 2006, 06:36 PM
Springmom , just read the thread , glad that archerandshooter is well and the letter has opened someones eyes but has the talk with junior go well? as much as my mom and my step mother and I don't get along I still will protect them because If my father ever found out I pulled a stunt like that he would do a Bill Cosby on me ( take me out of this world and possiblly replace me ) so my suggestion like several have said as pennance for his misactions is to be your practice Dummy for the pepperspray ( but get the practice cartridges and not tell him ) the pyscy of not knowing what its going to do will make him learn in anticipation of the mental greif you went thru , then spray some of the realstuff on some food to show him what its really like ( beware this can be used as a good tobasco replacement ..:eek: ) I am not a mean person but his actions kind of rubbed me wrong in away .

Deaf Smith
August 25, 2006, 07:53 PM
springmom,

The 30.06 prohibits pistols CCW, but nothing is said about rifles or shotguns. So, maybe a nice painting tube with a single shot 12 guage in it. Carry it under your arm:-)

Ok, realistly, besides writing the administrator, you need some good pepper spray, I suggest the foam type, an E2D Streemlight defender flashlight, and a 6 month membership to a Krav Maga course.

All those and maybe change hospitals if you can find one without a 30.06 sign.

springmom
August 25, 2006, 08:35 PM
Coonan, I don't treat my children that way. He made a mistake. We've talked about it. He's apologized. Had you actually read the thread you'd know that. Your suggestions are heinous.

For everyone else; thanks for all your good wishes. Archerandshooter is back to his usual terrific self and all is well. All in all, I thought it good that the hospital took their part of the responsibility and are going to reinstate the security escorts.

Time for this one to close up, Moderators.

Springmom

PythonGuy
August 26, 2006, 10:06 AM
OK Ladies and Gentlemen, with the post of coonan357 all sanity has left the building. Do you honestly think any mother is going to torture her child to teach him a lesson?? Read your history, the middle ages was hundreds of years ago. And to think, that is only one of over 700 posts of wisdom coonan357 has posted here. Amazing :rolleyes:

DeathRodent
August 28, 2006, 07:40 PM
SpringMom as you know by now you did the BEST thing whether or not you were armed.

FYI, I've worked at hospitals for about 17 years now (where did time go?) and they have a very high rate of attacks on women in their parking areas - I'm not sure why but every hospital I have worked at provides escorts and notifies staff of this problem.

Also, they seem to be very anti-gun, I guess they don't want anyone cutting (sic joke) into their business!